/sci/ - Science & Math

Fuckin' Batteries, How do they work?

lipo-god tier
li-ion/military high-density primary-good tier
nimh & lithium primary-ok tier
nicd and alkaline primary-bad tier
any other primary-shit tier

I was literally just thinking about batteries today. They need to get a hell of a lot better if we're going to make electric cars standard. How fast is battery technology expected to improve?

I would like to consider myself a battery expert. Also, did you know that military batter control systems are made with Atmel microcontrollers? that's right, fuck you PIC, AVR>PIC. anyway, >>1353439 is correct. 18650=god tier battery.

>>1353453
the limiting factor in the advancement of technology is batteries. Plus, batteries usually account for over half the size and weight of portable electronics. Bio-batteries are a future possibility, but it really comes down to who makes the best cell chemistry.

Batteries are evil. They pollute, they're in efficient, and their energy density is laughable. However... there is no other solution. LiPo's are amazing but can kill you if they go off (it's quick and violent).

>>1353453

Upcoming nanowire lithium cells are expected to increase capacity ten-fold over existing lithium-polymer.

potato battery -shit tier

>>1353466
Well that doesn't sound very encouraging =(

>>1353474
I lol at the terrorists who are too stupid to blow up the 5 pound bomb kept in most laptops. It's as simple as shorting out a couple cells.... a violent and poisonous explosion.

>>1353482
lol'd

>>1353458
>I would like to consider myself a battery expert

Are you a chemist or material scienist who has worked on building new types of batteries?

>>1353481
cool. Wanna see a pic of all my specialty chinese batteries for various lights and lasers?

>>1353458
Atmels aren't bad, the best micro processors but PIC's are the best for peripherals (mainly the dsPICs). I would choose Atmel if I didn't need all the nice ADC, 80 MHz clock (vs. 16 MHz), and didn't want the nice support for CAN and ethernet.

Agreed, 18650 is a god tier battery.

>>1353492
I've helped with protected battery circuits with military companies and manufacturers, I learned a lot while I was doing that.

>>1353466

Battery technology has traditionally advanced very slowly, but it's only been in the past decade or so that power-hungry portable devices have become so ubiquitous. Advancements are coming faster than ever now that there is enough impetus. see>>1353481

>>1353487

They don't explode so much as vent and burn. Still dangerous, but not very useful as a bomb.

>>1353497
it's true about PICs having shitloads of PHYs and peripherals, but the 80mhz clock is only equivalent to an atmel's 20mhz clock, and a lot more power hungry :( this is because the atmels vRISC architecture gets exactly one operation per clock cycle while the PIC takes 4 clock cycles for an equivalent operation.

WHO'S FUCKING IDEA WAS IT TO INVENT GODDAMN D SIZE BATTERIES, THEY'RE SO GODDAMNED HUGE AND EXPENSIVE I MIGHT AS WELL USE AND R/C BATTERY AT A FRACTION OF THE COST FUCK

>>1353494

Ain't nothin' I ain't seen before.

>>1353513
I'm a member of candlepowerforums-one guy had a large light full of 8 18650s IIRC, it exploded so violently it broke all the glass within like a 10 foot radius and shot shrapnel from a steel flashlight body into his walls. Luckily he got behind cover, but lithium batteries are REALLY unstable. Actually explosive.

>>1353520
>123a
lol
I'm talking about 18650, RCR123a, 14500, 10440, 17670, etc.

>he still uses disposable batteries

>>1353519

D cells are great value (but still huge). You get more watt hours for the dollar than with AAs.

>>1353526

I've been on CPF. Shithouse management there, but that aside it was not the batteries that exploded. It was the airtight pipe bomb that he called a flashlight that exploded. Batteries vent, nowhere for expanding gas to go, flashlight becomes a frag grenade.

>>1353531

If any of them read Trustfire or Ultrafire, GTFO.

>>1353535
Aren't you the fag who made like the 10000th thread about how /sp/ is trying to do math and no one cared and you got mad?

It was just the 1st picture on google... Jeez.

>>1353503

Ohh, so weren't developing new battereies?

Were you engineering (fagging around) or doing actual science (developing new batteries).

I actually spend a couple of years developing new types of anode and cathode technologies for batteries (material science), hence my curiosity.

>>1353539
very true-but the problem was the flashlight had a vent hole. It should have opened at less than 200PSI IIRC. So those batteries must have vented FAST.

and sadly, some are cheap chinese brands. I use a god tier AW 18650 in my 445nm laser (best battery you can buy) but otherwise cheap chinashit is fine for me.

>>1353550
lol :D I was engineering (no homo) the micro+ADC component of the battery control chip. What can you tell me about this tech you were working on though?

>>1353541

no mad here

>>1353552

That vent hole was entirely inadequate for the cell size/count even if it opened fully. It may as well not have been there. That incident there showed you the difference between professional and hobbyist design.

Also, Nickel-Zinc batteries because I want them to replace NiMH.

>>1353564
it was an olight or tiablo flashlight.... NOT hobbyist design.

>>1353567
That still spells Chinese, bro.

>>1353519
A standard D-size alkaline cell has a capacity of roughly 20AH, and had a very low internal resistance, meaning that it can deliver a very high current. There are no rechargable batteries in the same form factor that come any closer than one tenth that capacity, because all they do is house a AA-sized cell in a D-sized housing, presumably because if a NiMH cell of that size was mistreated it would be extremely hazardous. It's true that some sort of Li-based rechargable would be more efficient and economical in the long run, but they are very finicky about how they're discharged and recharged, and if you don't play nice with them they get VERY upset with you and do things like catch fire or explode, and remember we are talking about your average idiot consumer here who just wants their flashlight to work.

>>1353567

Yeah, and the Fenix TK40 isn't badly designed monstrosity either...

>>1353571
They have D-sized lithium-ions that are ALOT better.

>>1353571
not true, it's plenty easy to find full 15AH nimh D-cells, they're just expensive.

>>1353576
that thing is an explosion risk IMO. Too many AAs in one place.

See this right here? There were AW IMR cells in the holder to make it a high-discharge 11.1V pack. The cunt clipping the wires thought it would be fine since he had clipped lengths on live NiMH and LiCo packs and nothing serious happened.

The wires spot welded to the snips instantly and the short proceeded to turn the whole pack into burning slag.

>>1353606
LOL
I know a guy who welded a ghetto PSU 12v rail to a metal table and the PSU caught on fire :o

>>1353557
lol...."engineering (no homo)"....thats fucking highlarious.

Ohh, I was working on superprotonics.
All modern batteries are shit-tier (very inefficient), so tons of scientist (physicist + chemist + material scienists) are redesigning the battery fundementals on a atomic/sub-atomic level. "Superprotonic" is exactly as the name emplies. But you probably know all this....lol.

Were you in the military?

>>1353588

Especially the Sanyo-made LSD D-cells.

>>1353592

8*AA, jesus christ who thought that would be a good idea?

Just the contacts for all those cells gives it shitty resistance across the battery holder, even. A lot of failures involve shit melting together from resistive heating to create an internal short, or alks rupturing and ruining the whole tube.

That's not even counting the chance someone puts a cell or two in the wrong way.

>>1353617
By superprotonic do you mean those solid acid batteries that work off the same electron-stripping principles as fuel cells?

And I don't work for the military, I've just done work for some companies like GE and boeing.

>>1353439
>lipo-god tier
>li-ion/military high-density primary-good tier

LMAO, I wipe my ass with those shitty batteries.
WTF? let me guess you're an engineer (a faggot). You do realize the shit you get to use in engineeing is always 10 years behind of the shit developed.

>>1353641
alright then, what's this miracle shit you're using?

Molten salt batteries are great, aside from that whole being a molten salt thing.

>>1353627
No, no i don't.

>>1353656
care to explain then?

>>1353552

>>1353673
awesome.

>>1353641
>I wipe my ass with those shitty batteries.
No wonder they're shitty

>>1353652
Batteries based off spintronics. You will probably get them in 10 years of so, after scientists are finished with them. Have fun always living in the past faggot (engineer)!

>>1353693
Spintronics

Shit Negro, Thats all you had to say

>>1353693

It's funny because nobody gets to use them if engineers don't design and build them.

>>1353693
Care to explain to me how polarizing electrons in any way increases battery density? A link maybe? Stop being a retard.

>>1353693
Spintronics = WIN

>>1353693

Spintronics produces spin voltage (aka magnetic current). It's fucking useless for supplying electrical current. You make processors out of it, not batteries.

>>1353717
spintronics isn't just "polarizing electrons". Sure can tell you're an faggot (engineer).

>>1353748
spintronics creates magnetic currents. Sure can tell you're a retard.

>>1353693

>>1353785
get some rechargeables brah

>>1353733
>>1353753
ITT: Fags who don't know that magnetic current can induce electrical current.

The "magnetic" is really just a SR effect of the "electric". Any manipulation of E or M can be interchanged.

>>1353794
we still don't have a link to anything valid suggesting spintronics is used this way in batteries.

>>1353693
Let's make this thread about spintronics.
Enough of this faggy engineering battery shit!

>>1353794

Oh yeah we'll just make it into an inductor so it becomes inefficient & unwieldy, completely eliminating its entire purpose and any advantage carried by spin voltage.

>>1353828
Is shocking how little you know about electronics. Why do you assume it becomes a inductor? What bullshit faggotry (engineering) are you talking about?

>>1353693
Hell yeah

>>1353841

You keep trying to bluff, but you don't seem to realize how entirely out of your league you are.

SUPERCAPACITORS UP IN THIS BITCH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brdmnUBAS00
Obligatory video!

>>1353860
ITT: Engineer trying to act smart, its ok little guy, we think you're smart.

>>1354013
I don't

ITT: Highschool scientists throw out terms they don't understand, and imply they have anything to do with advancing the world's knowledge.

pmub

What kind of energy are batteries? Potential?

>>1355848
Same type as a banana or crude oil = potential chemical energy.

>>1355862
energy can only be transformed; are there a limit to these kind of energy in the world. Is it possible a universe where all energy is potential chemical energy; or a universe where no energy is potential chemical energy

>>1356174
No it is not possible because there is only one universe that matters. The "other" universes likely have physics that don't follow the same rules... including how matter/energy exists.

>>1356188
You are incredibly on topic!

What's the best way to extract lithium from a battery? I need some lithium to get pure thorium from some lamp mantles, but I can't get enough.

I'm not trolling, but since my urine is acidic, that means I can make a weak battery from it (and a basic solution, and metals)?

>>1356199
It'd make a piss-poor wet-cell.

>>1356206

>>1356215
In all seriousness you probably could, but I really doubt you could draw a noticeable current from it, let alone enough to power anything with the cell.

Praise this guy!!!!!!!

>>1355862
So battery is potential energy, just like food, a stock; but food deteriorates very fast with time if its not used (eaten), how about batteries, does it power deteriorates with time?

>>1356608
as the current flows through the battery it travels through the gel layer(assuming it is dry cell) to go through the positive end, and back into the negative end of the cell. I forget the exact mechanics of it, but as it used the gel in the cell eventually hardens/thickens, making it harder for the current to flow and less power can be drawn.

tl;dr yeah, pretty much.

>>1356621

Are there a constant proportion in the world of the diferent type of energies: potential, kinetic....
All kinds of energy has to deteriorate (be transformed)?

>>1356646
Energy doesn't deteriorate per se; conservation of energy says it is converted into other kinds. Energy in an engine for example, starts as electrical generated by the combustion of petrol, but is also dispersed in heat and noise. As for proportions, I'm not sure what you mean, but the amount of energy converted would depend on the circumstances.

>>1356667

"energy can only be transformed" or "energy HAS to be transformed"?

I think there must be a balance in the proportion of kinetic/potential energy; is not random, as we invent more and more ways to use energy we need more batteries.

>>1353579
>>1353588
Sure, but I'm talking about consumer-grade batteries.

dry cells dammit. unless you are having multiple cells in each post. in which case carry on.