/sci/ - Science & Math

bumping for /sci/ence, opinions, and such, because this is the smartest board on 4chan.

I'm amused. Wouldn't like to be in your situation.

I think you got owned in an argument with an older lady and you've run to the internet for reassurance.

Punk kids.

>She's a family friend and just right enough in a lot of what she said
>She's a family friend and just right in a lot
>She's a family friend and just
>She's a family
>She

Found it.

i think you are an idiot for expecting a rational argument from a fucking female nutritionist.

>nutritionis
theres your problem

>>1340841
OP here, I FUCKING CALLED THAT SHIT, GUARANTEED THIS POST WOULD HAPPEN ALMOST DOWN TO THE EXACT WORDS

FUCK YEAH

anyway guys, continue

Disprove her stupid ass with placebos. Lack of controlled studies is the only reason bullshit therapy like homeopathy and magnet therapy are still around.

>>1340841

Agreed. Problem solved

>>1340845
Ideas for a rebuttal? This may come up later on.

I didn't get a chance to bring up Norman Borlaug but you can be DAMN sure I will next time we discuss this.

Fucking dude used genetic engineering and specialized breeding to save the lives of 2 billion people by producing more food and bitch is saying that hormones and pesticides are killing our children?

She also said that we have the highest infant mortality rate of any first world/western developed nation. Anywhere she would get this info?

>>1340867

>we have the highest infant mortality rate of any first world/western developed nation

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh wow

>>1340867

>highest infant mortality rate of any first world/western developed nation

Has she ever been to France?

>>1340878
studies to back it up?

Hmm...
>vaccines, non-"organic" food, and the death of the environment by the hands of mankind were massive threats to the world.
Partly true. It's definitely not good for us.
>vaccines
I disagree with vaccines because they make us dependent on medicine and disinfection in such a way that people actually end up weaker. I think they're good to an extent, but people over-use them. In school, we were required to have vaccines for the flu and shit. We claimed religious rights, and I've never had a shot. I'm still alive.
>non-"organic" food
The food we eat isn't healthy. There are large realistic dangers in the mass production of food, but I don't think that eating entirely organic is the answer.
>death of the environment by the hands of mankind were massive threats to the world.
We need that environment. It's a good thing.

>>1340896
>Implying vaccines for things like polio and smallpox aren't good
(oh this is great, she also said that the polio vaccine was giving children polio where the disease polio itself was going away on it's own)
>implying organic french fries are any healthier than regular french fries
>implying we're KILLING THE PLANET TO DEATH with our barely over 100 years of heavy industry

>>1340867
lrn2lrn

If you don't already have the knowledge necessary to prove this woman wrong and at the same time clearly point out her illogicalities then it is time to do some Google research. Don't come running to /sci/ about this small fry.

pic somewhat related

Anyone who takes vaccines for granted should go talk to someone over the age of 80. They'll bitch-slap your privileged little whining right out of you with some polio horror stories.

>>1340916
I have lots of broad points and knowledge but I'm unable to quote specific sources.

Also the women I was talking to completely distrusted the government, and when I brought up that all food, in order to be labeled organic and sold in the US, has to go through the USDA which implies a certain trust in the government she claimed that even THAT was untrustworthy and she was taking a crapshoot with even labeled organic foods.

>>1340896
organic food farming itself is a threat to the environment, and carries no inherent benefit.
vaccines are proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be beneficial.
if she calls herself a nutritionist, then i'm a toothologist, and dentists are evil and trying to take over the world, just like dietitians.
her stance on alternative medicine makes me cringe...

>>1340934
How exactly is organic farming itself harmful?

A few other gems
"pills are the easy way out and do more harm than good"
"toxins"
"chemicals"
"hormones" (those last three were words she just said whenever she felt like proving a point)
"when I was a kid (so about '70-'80) we were out climbing trees and riding our bikes and TV had 5 channels (segway into) children today are so sedentary and technology is an addiction"
and my favorite:
"I'm not being judgemental, I do the same thing, but it's wrong"

>>1340910
>>Implying vaccines for things like polio and smallpox aren't good
Did I say I thought vaccines were bad period? No. I said that people overuse them. Plus, who the hell gets smallpox vaccines anymore?
>>implying organic french fries are any healthier than regular french fries
I didn't say that either. Good god, you're stupid. Go do some research about where your food comes from and what's in it.
>>implying we're KILLING THE PLANET TO DEATH with our barely over 100 years of heavy industry
-.- Once again, I didn't say that. Let me explain this in terms you can understand:
1. We build something.
2. That something does something bad to something else.
3. We don't care about that something else.
4. We realise we needed that something else.
Like dams and salmon, fishing and horseshoe crabs, etc.

>>1340943
aight, you right nigga, you right

>>1340934

It's just fighting alarmism with alarmism to call organic food a threat to the environment.

Organic and conventional both have their place.

There's some preliminary evidence organic farming is better for species diversity. Of course, the yields are shit compared to conventional, so it's energy-intensive.

Having less people would fix the problem...

>>1340931

Tell her nobody gives a shit about what she thinks, and that when she dies she will have contributed nothing towards modern science and medicine. She will be forgotten in twenty years where as agricultural and medical science will as always continue forward, despite the objection of the loonies who think willing yourself to not have cancer will actually cure you of cancer.

>>1340943
>Did I say I thought vaccines were bad period? No. I said that people overuse them. Plus, who the hell gets smallpox vaccines anymore?
>No. I said that people overuse them.
>overuse vaccines

>>1340942
it's damaging because it sucks all of the nutrients out of the soil and doesn't provide as much yield as traditional farming techniques... beyond that it burns more fuel to move the same amount of food to and fro.
the problem is that it isn't good to do it on an industrial scale.

OP, no matter how compelling your arguments are, she can always fall back on "You'll understand when you're older," or some such bullshit.

Sorry to say, 9 times out of 10, changing peoples' minds about anything is impossible.

>>1340943

>Plus, who the hell gets smallpox vaccines anymore?

Most American babies at 3 days after birth.

>>1340955

I was at this party last weekend, and I took two hits of MMR vaccine.

>>1340963
Not anymore actually.

>>1340934
>organic food farming itself is a threat to the environment, and carries no inherent benefit.
Lol wut?
>vaccines are proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be beneficial.
Not when people are dependent on them. I mean, seriously, getting a shot for THE FLU? Why? Then, it causes people to set into a pattern where they disinfect everything.
>>1340942
>"pills are the easy way out and do more harm than good"
A lot of them are unnecessary, because we could use weed instead. But that's illegal.
>"when I was a kid (so about '70-'80) we were out climbing trees and riding our bikes and TV had 5 channels (segway into) children today are so sedentary and technology is an addiction"
Yeah, I do think that kids should go outside more. But technology in itself isn't bad, people just need to kick their kids out of the house every once in a while.

>>1340972

Good Job. Now go and live a MMR-free life

>>1340963
Well, if that's the only thing keeping it at bay, fine, but if people stopped getting them, would it come back? I'd like to see some research on that.
I have never had a shot, but I've also never had a serious disease. Mostly just colds and stuff, feel like crap for a couple days and then get over it.

>>1340975
we're not dependant on vaccines, but don't come crying to me when your immune system is damaged and the flu you contracted has given you pneumonia and you die like William Henry Harrison

>>1340986

I said AMERICAN babies.

So we gonna keep all Africans from immigrating? Because you can NEVER fully destroy a diesase.

vaccines have saved more lives than anything. Right up there on the same scale as penicillin in terms of medical discoveries.

>>1340955
Flu shots. Nobody fucking needs them, and it turns people into sniveling "I need my shot or I'll DIIIIIIIE!" types of people.
>>1340960
As I was saying, I don't think eating organic is the answer. Instead of shoveling antibiotics down the throats of our livestock, we should be fixing the industrial food production system at a lower level. Like putting band-aids over the sores, instead of curing the plague. Biological reference, "plague" isn't a reference to anything except that it's a disease which involves sores.

>>1340993
>implying one can get pneumonia just from having the flu

>>1341007
>it turns people into
please revise your statement, as I believe it falls prey to a logical fallacy.
aside from that, what fix do you propose, good sir?

>>1341009
no I didn't

Anyone else want to chip on this?

I just resent the general idea that people latch onto these buzzwords like "hormones" and "genetic engineering" and "chemicals" etc and just feel like somehow they're going to get incredibly unhealthy in all sorts of vague manners.

Of course this evening all my opinions were discounted because I'm a 19 year old college student with a hell of a skeptics eye debating with a woman who was in her forties and a holistic nutritionist/diet therapist for 15 years.

>>1340993
Also,
>implying not getting shots will damage your immune system
I've built up my immune system naturally, like a real man. How do you think people survived without shots before? I suppose we went back in time and gave shots to them, eh?

>>1341027
point it out that water is a chemical, hormones are mass produced in our own bodies, and are not to be feared, and that genetic engineering is no more dangerous than the artificial selection that is inherent in farming...
she agrees with the unifying theory of biology... right?

>>1341019
>as I believe it falls prey to a logical fallacy.
What logical fallacy? You mean, literally turning people into that? I mean that people think that they ABSOLUTELY NEED to get ALL their shots. Picture Niggers and Mexicans with 10 kids lined up in a pharmacy to get Swine Flu shots. Remember how ABSOLUTELY LIFE THREATENING Swine Flu was?

>>1340986
I'm questioning whether you have any understanding what so ever how communicable disease works. You haven't gotten those particular diseases even if you haven't been vaccinated because you live in population that has been sufficiently immunized that you haven't been exposed. Reduce the immunized part of the population past a certain threshold and many will come surging back. And FYI colds don't have any fucking thing to do with anything but flu vaccines.

>>1341034
Lets test your 'strong' immune system against smallpox then.

>>1341034

>How do you think people survived without shots before?

They didn't.

>>1341040
she wouldn't know what the unifying theory of biology was.

She's not a -real- scientist and doesn't have a degree, if this makes anything clearer. She just read up a bunch on nutrition after a nutritionist helped her out a bunch because she was very sickly well into her 20's.

>>1341019
>>1341045
Oh yeah, and fix for what? Forgot to ask.

>>1340960
Organic farming is better for the environment, as it has less pollution associate with it (no fertilizer run off for example). Good god, you think it 'sucks the nutrients out of the soil.' That's why farmers fucking rotate fields. And how does it burn more fuel to move around the food? We're burning the same fuel moving around non organics.

The main problem with organics is that the benefits do not outweigh the higher costs.

just point out that what is natural is not always good for you. Oh and that we were not created by a skydaddy and hence are not perfect and nature is a selfish shit whore cunt. All our food has been artificially selected over the generations . show her a banana in the wild

>>1341048

Or, rather, most didn't and some were able to procreate.

There is a reason couples have less kids now than they did in the past.

>>1341034
>not getting shots will damage your immune system
no... not getting won't benefit, it's not like you'll drop dead if you don't get them.
a lot of this is the protection of a nation or society as a whole. The less people that can contract and therefore spread a disease, the less people will die because of it.
i respect your strong immune system (though your use of 'naturally' also makes me cringe), though I would like to see it against a mutated H1N1 strain or something out of the black plague.
vaccines for silly things are mostly for the young and very old, not for your muscular, iconic self.

I pretty much only get flu shots cause I'm "If I get sick I miss 1-2 weeks of classes and my grades will suffer!"

There's much worse things I could be doing to myself while in college.

>>1341048
I guess you don't exist.
>>1341047
As the post above you pointed out, I won't catch it.
>>1341046
My question about small pox was merely speculating on whether or not Small Pox would even come back. I guess so, hmm?
But I'm not really talking about that. I'm talking about things like the Flu.
But nevermind, you guys are sufficiently idiotic.

>>1341045
I mean that you may assume that people were absolutely fine, and not OCD germaphobes before the shots came out.
it's merely the servicing of the desire for it, and you may call causation where not even correlation exists.

>>1341051
>unifying theory of biology
evolution, which is why I asked it after bringing up a selective pressure.

>>1341052
fix for a broken food... thing.
shoveling antibiotics into cows vs giving them decent food and all...
remember we're growing meat, not pet cows.

>>1341061
>mutated H1N1 strain
Had it, I was fine. Unless you mean if H1N1 mutated into something that's actually dangerous, in which case maybe I'd get a vaccine if it was lethal enough.
To summarise my ENTIRE ARGUMENT:
People don't need vaccines for diseases that aren't dangerous, but they get them anyway, and I think that's stupid. To define dangerous: something that will actually kill you or damage you permanently to an extent that it's significantly inconvenient.
I.E. people don't need flu shots.
>or something out of the black plague
You mean the Black Plague itself, not an individual symptom, right? I would just do like that one guy whose name I can't remember. It was bedrest and hot lemon tea, essentially, and I think he did some other things, but I don't remember.

>>1341101
>something that will actually kill you or damage you permanently to an extent that it's significantly inconvenient
...like with infants and old people. the flu can be a lot more dangerous than you think it is.
and as I am completely ignorant of the black plague, I know it's caused by the fleas on rats, but i didn't know what to call it, I meant the disease as a whole
...basically just give me a reason to put on that creepy vulture mask and act like a plague doctor

>>1341069
But see, the promotion of the vaccines makes people think that if they don't get them, they might have something really bad happen to them. Think about the way that schools tell you if you don't get vaccines for the flu, you can't go to school there.
>>1341077
Instead of shoveling antibiotics into them, how about implementing proper disposal of their waste?

>>1341119
Sure, like with infants and old people. For infants, just take care of them properly. And I assume you mean people who are old enough to have an immune system that can't fight it off on their own. People who are that old are usually ready to die, so a good number of them wouldn't care. The others can have the shots if they want them, but I think there's a good chance it won't help.

>>1340993
Wow are your retarded. The reason we are having trouble with diseases right now is because they are antibiotic resistant, because people don't take ENOUGH medicine. And virus shots don't damage your immune system unless you had a preexisting condition that is triggered by it, which is extremely rare.

>>1341120
then get the vaccine. it's irresponsible of a school to do that, but cutting down transition rates as early as possible WILL slow the spread of a disease and lower its death toll.
and it sounds like a plan, but for some reason I get a feeling it's easier said than done... maybe it's just my own misanthropy with the food industry, but i foresee loopholes and regulation breakage in the future.

>>1340828

>vaccines

Anyone who thinks these are bad have been duped by Alex Jones

>non-"organic" food

Meh, I'm sure ridiculous over-subsidization of the industry, "cheese product," terminator genes, pandemics from unsanitary factory farms, and so forth are all bad things, but organic food is not really a feasible large-scale solution. And with the exception of the pandemic thing it generally doesn't pose a huge risk to our lives compared to smoking and drinking.

>the death of the environment by the hands of mankind

The biosphere will continue to persist no matter what we do, only nuclear winter has a chance of destroying all life permanently. But if some alien paleontologist arrives on Earth fifty million years from now, and they examined the layers when humans existed, they would see a tremendous mass extinction event. In geologic terms, we are really fucking things up, faster than anything that has ever occurred short of an asteroid impact. In a century or two, we'll probably be living in a world with nothing but rats and flies.

;_;

>>1341101

Of course today's media blew swine flu out of proportion but the post ww1 flu epidemic did kill millions and polio was a huge threat before the vaccine was created. The problem I have with you is this; you need to stop trying to claim that catching diseases and getting over them "naturally" results in anything different from beating a weakened disease from a vaccine. The two things result in the exact same immuno-response. The only difference is that the person getting the vaccine goes about their life while you suffer like an idiot. You really should find out exactly what a vaccine is because your ignorance is breathtaking.

As for the disinfecting obsession, yeah people who are obsessive about one preventative health measure tend to be obsessive about others as well. Congratulations, you've pointed out the obvious.

>>1341155
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
>>1341159
>then get the vaccine.
haet needles. It's the real reason I didn't get one, up until 7th grade, which is when I stopped being scared of needles/
>it's irresponsible of a school to do that, but cutting down transition rates as early as possible WILL slow the spread of a disease and lower its death toll.
Kids will be fine if they develop their immune systems without help. They'll get sick, so what? Colds and flus and chicken pox aren't a problem, we know how to deal with them.
>and it sounds like a plan, but for some reason I get a feeling it's easier said than done... maybe it's just my own misanthropy with the food industry, but i foresee loopholes and regulation breakage in the future.
Yeah. I feel the same way. In addition, it'd require remodeling current infrastructures.

>>1341219
>haet needles
qq
>Kids will be fine if they develop their immune systems without help.
they're still getting sick and potentially spreading it to other people (like their parents, then off to who their parents work with, etc) if they aren't immune to it due to the vaccine.

>>1341219

Nobody in their right mind would vaccinate for a cold.