/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12802316
>Everyone makes fun of CS majors for being dumb.
It's cope made by a bunch of students who realise that they score too low for graduate school and now have to grasp with mediocre job prospects. That's why they go after CS students because they at least have a realistic chance of getting an upper middle-class job.

>>12802330
>t. never had to teach a comp sci student basic math
Force all CS students to have to take formal proof based classes in real and complex analysis. They need at least a B+ to get their CS degree. Everyone else has to switch majors to psychology.

>>12802334
This is the type of deflection I'm talking about. You can take all the hardest courses you want. If it's not applicable to real life situations, you're still fucked either way.

my program had a linear algebra course in the first year which seemed to do the trick

>>12802350
Deflection? The courses improve your understanding of math, which you need for coding you nigger. Furthermore they teach critical thinking which you need for writing elegant code. Writing an elegant proof uses the same logical reasoning you need for writing elegant code. But you wouldn't know that, because you're just a retarded code monkey looking for a paycheck. You're precisely the type of person who needs to be weeded out.

>>12802460
>getting filtered by linear algebra
Jesus Christ

>>12802485
A CS student of all people getting filtered by linear algebra. That's fucking gold.

Most coding jobs do not require a computer scientist.

Why would a university want to reduce its income?

>>12802489
Right, but universities want that juicy student loan money so they dumb down the program to teach nothing but code monkey shit. Even CS graduates hardly write good code, and a lot of employers give them a wide berth because having a degree inflates their ego.

>>12802316
For CS to be respected here, it would have to look like this

>Fall 1
Single Variable Calculus
Intro to Proofs & Abstract Mathematics
Matrix Algebra
Physics I
Intro to Programming in C++
Digital Logic & Automata
Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)

>Spring 1
Vector Calculus
Probability and Stochastic Processes
Modern Geometry
Physics II
Data Structures
Computer Architecture
Problem Solving and Heuristic (Seminar)

>Fall 2
Ordinary Differential Equations
Combinatorics and Graph Theory I
Fourier Analysis + Systems and Signals
Physics III
Circuit Analysis
Algorithm Analysis and Design
Unix and Shell Development (Seminar)

>Spring 2
Complex Variables
Combinatorics and Graph Theory II
Mathematical Logic
Computability and Complexity Theory
Communication Systems
Internet and Networks Technology
Functional Programming (Seminar)

>Fall 3
Numerical Analysis I
Real Analysis
Control Engineering
Electronics I
Operating Systems
Programming Languages & Compilers I
Database Theory (Seminar)

>Spring 3
Numerical Analysis II
Analysis on Manifolds
Digital Signal Processing
Electronics II
Advanced Algorithms
Compilers II
Debugging & Source Control (Seminar)

>Summer 3-4
Co-Op

>Fall 4
Abstract Algebra I
Pointset Topology
Information & Coding Theory
Computer Graphics & Image Processing
Artificial Intelligence & Machine Learning
FPGAs & Microcontrollers
Professionalism, Ethics, and Conduct (Seminar)

>Spring 4
Abstract Algebra II
Mathematical Statistics
Algebraic Topology
Linear Programming & Optimization
Computer Vision & Robotics
Digital System Design
Game Engines (Seminar)

>Summer 4-5
Co-Op

>Fall 5
Measure Theory
Number Theory
Differential Geometry
Computer Security & Cryptography
Combinatorial Optimization
Micro-Economics
Software Engineering (Seminar)
Senior Project

>Spring 5
Functional Analysis
Algebraic Geometry
Quantum Computing
Convex Optimization
Probabilistic & Approximation Algorithms
Macro-Economics
Finance & High Frequency Trading (Seminar)
Senior Project

>>12802528
This is actually pretty similar to my school's CE and EE programs.

>>12802536
You go to a good school then.

>>12802334
>>t. never had to teach a comp sci student basic math
Not the guy you're talking about, but I have. The problem in your statement is that a lot of people in basic math, invariant of their major, generally do not do well in basic math. CS programs don't do quite enough to further filter people out until upper division, but I've seen shitty physics, math, engineering, CS, chem, etc. majors do horribly in basic math
>to take formal proof based classes in real and complex analysis
Real analysis and complex analysis have use in CS, but only really if you do nontrivial stuff at the graduate level for the theory track. They already take the equivalent of an intro to proofs class - just have them take the big boy version of combinatorics (at the level of stanley / van Lint - Wilson) and require at least a semester of abstract algebra (at the level of Artin or Dummit-Foote) and/or mathematical logic (at the level of Enderton), all of which are relevant to undergrad material in CS.
That, and actually put the calculus they learn (calc 1 - vector calc) to use: teach them more about generating functions, numerical analytic methods, convex optimization theory (this can serve as their "dirty intro" to analysis) especially as an elective, etc..

There are plenty of bright CS majors out there, but they're dragged down by the rest of the dirt.

>>12802489
Then most people shouldn't sign up for a program that teaches computer science towards academic interests (like math teaches towards academic interests or physics does) to get a simple programming job. Not all software jobs are like this, and there are more than a few that are nontrivial and use the CS degree - these jobs should be the target industry that CS degree holders should be competitive for. These include cryptography, aircraft interfacing, military/tech, etc etc..

Sure, the CS degree should have *some* vocational elements like having practical assignments to teach the material. But it shouldn't be shamed for being focused on CS and not codemonkeying.

>>12802528
>Summer 0-1
English for STEM majors

>Summer 1-2
Linear Algebra

>>12802548
Sure. It's just if your field is filled with midwit faggots, then that's reflective of the field, no matter how well the bright ones perform. I taught an intro physics class where the top student went to CS.

Maybe it's easier to see with psychology. When a majority of psychologists abuse scientific methods, that reflects poorly on the field (psychology sucks). There are some pretty legitimate psychologists out there who do some really good work (e.g. John Gottman), but that's the exception, not the rule. The only way to flip that, so that exceptional performance is the rule and not the exception, is rigorous weedout classes at all levels.

This is why you're unlikely to find as many pseuds in math and physics. We weed all those faggots out, hardcore. And if by some miracle they make it to grad school, say in physics, they get Jackson to the face. You can't pseud your way into understanding Jackson.

>>12802561
Linear Algebra is was already covered, they just called it Matrix Algebra. Some schools do that for some reason.

>>12802316
x = student

program=[]

If x != retard:
>>> program.append(x)

>>12802528
This is not CS, this is Math+CS+EE tripe major.

>>12802528
this is a clear shitpost since it ends up being both a hodgepodge of "look at me, I'm Mr. Engineering and I have big boy math classes" and yet pretty redundant.
>point set topology
only useful if you care about denotational semantics, otherwise irrelevant. algebraic topology is much more relevant and directly related to computation
>Communication Systems
>Control Engineering
I like EE material but this isn't relevant to even academically minded undergrads. There are parts of CS relevant to both of these things, but they're niche enough that they're not core
>year long sequence in electronics
see above. I do think CS majors could benefit from at least a semester of electronics though
>Analysis on Manifolds
manifolds are important for many applications of CS, but it's not worth having a full class devoted to this in undergrad. better to teach them optimization
>Differential Geometry
assuming this is a real diff geo course and not calculus with geodesics, this is relevant when you do graphics processing (among other things), so best kept an elective
>Mathematical Statistics
>measure theory only afterwards
lmao
it's enough to do introductory probability (up to PDFs without measure) and basic stat - measure shows up in places but isn't immediately relevant
>Game Engines (Seminar)
>Unix and Shell Development (Seminar)
cringe
>Combinatorial Optimization
cut analysis on manifolds and even intro real analysis for convex optimization for the analytic primer. Also, any good combinatorics class will talk about LP duality and combinatorial optimization. Redundancy.
>Micro/Macro-Economics
no
>Functional Analysis
yeah lmao if they want to do quantum information, no if not
>Algebraic Geometry
sure if they want to do geometric complexity, no if not
>Convex Optimization
>Probabilistic & Approximation Algorithms
>year 5
fucking why
>senior project on top of 5 upper div classes + seminar
this is a recipe for disaster, low GPA, and no sleep

>>12802528
The ultimate STEMlord curriculum... I kneel...

>>12802564
>It's just if your field is filled with midwit faggots
The field is not "filled" with these people. They're people here for an undergrad degree they'll never use in some deadend programming job. They were never in CS to begin with.
>This is why you're unlikely to find as many pseuds in math and physics
Wait, this is completely untrue though. I saw more than my fair share of pseuds in the math and physics classes when I taught calc 1 and TA'd for calc 3. People
>We weed all those faggots out, hardcore
I'm in math. We do not weed all those people out, given that numerous schools have the "warning" before taking intro to proofs that it's not a light elective (despite intro to proofs being among the most straightforward math classes) - people still fail all around, especially math majors. We're in the top 25 and still have 30% of the class fail intro to proofs.
We don't weed them out anymore hardcore than undergrad algo weeds out CS majors, which has about a 40% fail rate and similar warnings.
>And if by some miracle they make it to grad school, say in physics, they get Jackson to the face.
> You can't pseud your way into understanding Jackson.
I get that, since I've cracked Jackson open. But your physics bias is really showing here. I've seen physics students who brag about surface integrals and area laws fail basic calc 3 path integrals and applications of green's theorem consistently. I've seen physics majors mess up hard on basic conceptual questions. This idea that physics weeds out everyone too weak but somehow by grad school CS hasn't done the same is sort of weird, given how I know CS PhD candidates and Physics PhD candidates tend to take the same semidefinite programming and optimization classes and end up doing pretty similarly

So I ostensibly agree that undergrad caters too much to CS retards, but I don't agree that they're part of the field or that they're not weeded out from going onto grad school.

>>12802573
If you take away controls, some of the digital systems, extra circuit classes after physics, communication, controls, electronics ii, and the redundant optimization classes (convex and combinatorial cover most cases, you'd learn about linear methods in a numerical analysis class anyway) and cut away these irrelevant seminars and econ, this is pretty close to my math + CS degree.

>>12802620
>>12802657

>>12802678
>muh reddit
fuck off retard

>>12802696
Ask yourself how I know you're a frequent poster there. It's plastered all over your rhetoric. Go back.

>>12802316
That's like trying to filter the retards out of gender studies. What's the point?

>>12802701
>muh rhetoric
>i recognize you
ah so you don't have an argument then

>>12802316
My uni required all cs majors to maintain a GPA above 3.5 in their first 4 cs classes. Combine that with notoriously large work loads and difficult tests, it made for good content on the classes' piazza and subreddits. It was very chill to watch as a math major only going for a cs minor, since my GPA requirement was only like a 2.5. These cocky nerds got what they deserved for thinking the prestige of going to the #1 public school in the world was more important than choosing a school with good life/academic balance, weather, etc.

>>12802568
That's 2nd semester linear algebra with theory instead of computation.
>>12802620
>Also, any good combinatorics class will talk about LP duality and combinatorial optimization
cringe
>>12802670
>you'd learn about linear methods in a numerical analysis class anyway
I've never seen LP done in NumAnal. Then again NumAnal can vary tremendously.

>>12802316
mandatory emacs usage

>>12802862
>>>/g/tfo and never return

>>12802771
>>Also, any good combinatorics class will talk about LP duality and combinatorial optimization
>cringe
I mean...did you not cover the matching polytope when talking about graph matchings after Hall? LP shows up very naturally from classic combinatorics and basic geometry

>>12802862
>muh editor wars is CS guis
You will never be relevant. >>>/g/tfo

Why should code monkeys even be smarter? You just would brain-drain physicists and mathematicians etc.

Ah, the irony and paradoxianism at OP's post makes me rage. Trying to be smart he shows his idiotism.

>>12802670
I'd also cut away Algebraic Geometry, Measure Theory, Abstract Algebra 2, Topology and Number Theory 2 and make it required to choose some of them because some of these courses are clearly too deep into math, maybe even grad level.

>>12802862
Emacs is a technology, it won't help you with Computer SCIENCE.

>>12802966
Lmao somebody’s insecure
>reeee only physicists and mathematicians are allowed to be smart reeee

>>12803039
I took all of these as electives except algebraic geometry. We only covered basics of varieties in our ring theory semester. I’m assuming number theory 2 here means analytic or algebraic number theory.
>grad
Yeah a good amount of then we’re graduate level. Most were just honors upper division electives though

>>12803234
>>12802966
this shows the difference in intelligence between physics/math vs. CS. Mathfags and physicsfags actively want CS majors to be smarter. CSfags don't give a shit and want to just mindlessly code. Fucking pathetic.

>>12803251
>Mathfags and physicsfags actively want CS majors to be smarter. CSfags don't give a shit
It's literally vice versa in the posts you replied to.

>>12802573
>EE triple major
No, you would need a 6th year and take
>Electric Fields, Electric Waves, Analog Electronics, Power Electronics, Solid State Physics, Optical Devices, and the common Engineering core of Engineering Statics, Engineering Dynamics, Engineering Thermodynamics, Mechanics of Materials, Material Science, Advanced Engineering Mathematics (PDEs, Asymptotic Methods, Perturbation)

>>12802726
Fellow Berkeley chad? I was eecs so I didn't even need to worry about that shit.

>>12803335
>mechmat
No that’s required in mechE not EE
>material science
>solid state
Semiconductors class is not material science and solid state proper and most people take these in grad school
>thermodynamics
Not in EE undergrad
>fields and waves
The basics of the physical theory is covered in the physics classes. Their use in undergrad is developed within the upper division classes they show up in
>dynamics and statics
This is semester 2-3 shit and easy despite having the reputation of being weed out courses
>advanced engineering math
>PDEs
Not hard for engineering. Usually taken by aero and mechE though - EE takes linear systems instead because they don’t need to know how to solve heat equations
>asymptotic methods
Lol if only
>perturbation
Lol if only, you don’t learn anything that isn’t “memorize this case rather than actually learning perturbation.” Wake me up when an EE can actually analyze stuff using Gaussian perturbations

Your vision of the EE degree is very ambitious and mostly just listing every single elective some EE might take and overstating the difficulty of statics, when in reality given ABET and the engineering standards, they can realistically only take 3 of these max. Most EE’s even go for more CSE electives like computer vision anyway.

>>12803251
Check your reading comprehension. It is literally the opposite in the posts you replied to. He’s seething at the idea of the average CSfag being smarter.

>>12803376
i don't need to be able to read, I have my math degree

They don’t need to. The retards already go for math and physics instead out of an idyllic dream of fitting in with history’s most brilliant minds.

>>12803335
>and the common Engineering core of Engineering Statics, Engineering Dynamics, Engineering Thermodynamics, Mechanics of Materials
Don't they repeat a lot of stuff from Physics 1-3?
>Solid State Physics
>Material Science
Those sound like electronics technology to me. But I guess it depends on a specific university.

>>12802528
That's very impressive anon. But tell me what do you think of Object Oriented Programming.

>>12803859
>Those sound like electronics technology to me. But I guess it depends on a specific university.
yeah you learn the basics in electronics, but the person you're replying to is out of their mind if they're trying to sell the idea that solid state physics and material science (which is a full standard engineering degree anyway) is standard core EE. Also dynamics is not required for EE

>>12803348
Hello fellow Berkeley chad

>>12802528
>physhits
yeah no thanks.
I'm doing a math degree to stay away from that cancer.

>>12804075
Lmao doesn’t a math degree (and most stem degrees) require either 2 semesters of physics + lab? That’s what the math and CS majors at my school had to do

>>12804091
nope.
not a single one.
maybe my uni just doesn't want to waste our time

>>12804304
No, most places require it if you want the BSc. If you settle for the BA, you don’t need to take the physics.

>>12802528
>5 years
If we fixed public schools we could reduce it down to 4.

>Fall 1
Analysis on Manifolds
Complex Analysis
Topics in Fourier Analysis, Systems and Signals, Wavelets
Mathematical Logic
Combinatorics and Graph Theory I
Circuit Analysis
Advanced Digital Logic & Automata Theory
Unix and Shell Development (Seminar)
Personal Grooming and Hygiene (Seminar)

>Spring 1
Measure Theory
Combinatorics and Graph Theory II
Computability and Complexity Theory
Communication Systems
Control Engineering
Graduate Computer Architecture
Functional Programming (Seminar)

>Fall 2
Advanced Stochastic Processes
Numerical Analysis I
Digital Signal Processing
Electronics I
Graduate Operating Systems
Programming Languages & Compilers I
Database Theory (Seminar)

>Spring 2
Mathematical Statistics
Numerical Analysis II
Electronics II
Advanced Algorithms
Compilers II
FPGAs & Microcontrollers
Debugging & Source Control (Seminar)

>Summer 2-3
Co-Op

>Fall 3
Graduate Abstract Algebra I
Algebraic Topology
Information & Coding Theory
Computer Graphics & Image Processing
Artificial Intelligence & Machine Learning
Linear Programming & Optimization
Professionalism, Ethics, and Conduct (Seminar)

>Spring 3
Graduate Abstract Algebra II
Differential Topology
Computer Vision & Robotics
Digital System Design
[Elective]
[Elective]
Game Engines (Seminar)

>Summer 3-4
Co-Op

>Fall 4
Number Theory
Differential Geometry
Functional Analysis
Combinatorial Optimization
[Elective]
[Elective]
Software Engineering (Seminar)
Senior Project

>Spring 4
Algebraic Geometry
Quantum Computing
Convex Optimization
Probabilistic & Approximation Algorithms
[Elective]
[Elective]
Finance & High Frequency Trading (Seminar)
Senior Project

>>12804304
Your school creates cs majors like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTfp2_SwxHk

>>12803883
Occasionally useful but over used.

>>12803361
>>fields and waves
>The basics of the physical theory is covered in the physics classes. Their use in undergrad is developed within the upper division classes they show up in
>>12803859
>>and the common Engineering core of Engineering Statics, Engineering Dynamics, Engineering Thermodynamics, Mechanics of Materials
>Don't they repeat a lot of stuff from Physics 1-3?
brainlets

>>12802316
I'm going to report this shit thread.

>>12804075
>cancer
aka problem solving rather than copy n paste

>>12804483
>triggered cs major that hates the thought of being forced to learn

>>12804496
I'm the thought bubble but also the teacher. Game algorithms are one of the most aesthetically pleasing things to ever be done with computer science. Video games is as pleasurable as music.

>>12804480
>brainlets
But he's right. Engineering core repeats a lot of the material with extra problems and instances used in engineering. Engineering uses fields and waves different than is taught in the physics courses, but they're not standard courses for EE anywhere in the US.
Also, you're pulling it right out of your ass if you think EE's in the US take dynamics, thermodynamics, mechanics of materials, or material science. Half of these are literally mechE classes after the core. Everyone takes statics sure, but thermo in EE? MechMat in EE? You question us saying EE classes have redundant physics but not the fact that someone is injecting mechE core into the EE core and claiming this is standard?
Eat shit larper.

>>12804507
> Game algorithms are one of the most aesthetically pleasing things to ever be done with computer science.
...such as? If you mean graphics, I agree. If you mean games as products, begone undergrad.

the amount of cope in this thread lmao.
>>12802316
the easiest way of solving this is to split cs and software engineering. couple of schools already do this but it should be more widespread. this means that in softeng, students can focus more on code monkey shit, wheras in cs, it could finally be treated as a branch of mathematics.

>>12804598
>Engineering uses fields and waves different than is taught in the physics courses, but they're not standard courses for EE anywhere in the US
brainlet
https://sce.cornell.edu/courses/roster/ece-3030
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-632-electromagnetic-wave-theory-spring-2003/
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Courses/EE117/
https://web.stanford.edu/class/ee142/
https://explorecourses.stanford.edu/search?view=catalog&filter-coursestatus-Active=on&q=EE%20242:%20Electromagnetic%20Waves&academicYear=20182019

>>12803335
Now this is a bare minimum respectable EECS program by /sci/'s standards.

>>12803335
Now this is the bare minimum respectable EECS program by /sci/'s standards.

>>12802334
>force all CS students to take an upper level course in my major or they aren't actually smart
Seethe. Write your own compiler and then we'll talk.

>>12802316
It's funny you bring this up, because the good CS programs around the country try especially hard to filter retards by front-loading esoterica.

>>12802528
>Personal grooming and Hygiene
kek

french bro here.
I missed the fall admission to McGill University computer engineering bachelor. Ottawa University on the other hand is still accepting Should I go for it or wait for the next fall (McGill only accepts once a year)?
I will pay just like locals thanks to a french immersion program and I have grades to get in both.
this is the curriculum for each one
uOttawa:
>https://catalogue.uottawa.ca/en/undergrad/basc-computer-engineering/#programrequirementstext
McGill:https://www.mcgill.ca/study/2020-2021/faculties/engineering/undergraduate/programs/bachelor-engineering-beng-computer-engineering
I am 19 and I am nearly half through teachyourslefcs curriculum so I won't be wasting my time if I take another neetdoom year.I mainly concerned about not being able to fit in as a 21 years old later.
what do you think is the name and the more rigorous curriculum worth it waiting?

>>12804748
This doesn't refute what he said. He, and the original person you were responding to, said that electromag in EE is usually covered in short form across other classes and the physics classes, or the proper fields and waves classes in EE are electives in most places. It isn't an ABET required core class for EE.
At best, muh brainlet argument is as good as the argument that there are CS schools that are really good and do all the good classes that are required. It's fine to accept the good EE schools have these classes only if you accept the good CS schools have non brainlet classes as well.

>>12802334
already did that
>t. cs / math major

>>12802620
>they're not core
bare min fags get out
>better to teach them optimization
There's already 3 semesters. Nonlinear is the only missing one.

>>12804829
And then you get hired as a Java CRUD developer. What a life.