/sci/ - Science & Math

Here's the Thorazine advert, where it says that it "quickly puts an end to his violent outburst".

When it's described like this, it's pretty clear that the only desire is to control the patient, NOT to help them overcome their emotional problems.

I'm not saying society necessarily SHOULD help people overcome their emotional problems. But I'm saying it should leave them alone, as adults, to deal with their own problems by themselves - instead of locking them up and drugging them against their will.

Bump.

Yes but only for white people.

>>12801169
Jews invented mental illnesses. They diagnose goyims that fly to close to the sun.

Yes, /pol, the voices you hear in the walls are actually real and doctors are conspiring against you to prevent you from getting the truth out, also the Earth is flat and Q is real.

>>12801735
This is nothing to do with /pol/. I didn't mention anything /pol/-tier in my posts.

I'm just thinking that mental illnesses are just made up categorisations of human behaviour, in order to justify locking people against their will / drugging people against their will.

>>12801169
I knew these doctors were lying about this "schizophrenia" bull shit.
I never trusted them.
threw away those MKUltra pills the second I got them.
replaced them with sugar tablets incase my mum tries to get wise because she's obviously a secret mossad agent.
probably not my real mom.

>>12801169
im diagnosed with mental diseases and i feel medicines help me

>>12801169
All of psychology is a lie and has nothing to do with medicine

Most mental illness is bullshit but there might be some things that should be categorised as such.
There is definitely a lot of over- and unscientific diagnostisation and all it serves is to employ people and make money.

Antipsychotics like Thorazine should be banned out right. The real and previous name of antipsychotics is major tranquillisers. They don't treat psychosis, they just make you unable to think at all. It's a chemical lobotomy and they take 20-25 years off your life. It has been shown time and time again that when the use of these major tranquillisers increase in a country then so people disability pensions.

>>12801755
psychiatry isnt psychology

>>12801763
they're related

>>12801755
This: >>12801763

>>12801768
A little, but they're very separate things

>>12801755
>>12801763
Medicine and psychiatry is bullshit too.

Most of psych disorders have to cause significant suffering to be cathegorised as such. Meds and therapy help to ease this suffering, by allowing sick people to function normally. No conspiracy here

>>12801876
Meds and psychiatric hospital are FORCED upon people. People are injected with antipsychotics against their will. This is legal here in the UK, a western developed nation. I assume it's probably legal in other western developed nations too.

If people DO choose meds and therapy voluntarily, then that's their choice. But locking people up against their will, and drugging them against their will, is unfortunately legal.

>sick people
"Sick" usually refers to people with physical health conditions. People with mental problems are usually just emotionally distressed by events in their lives. I would argue that "sick" is not the right word.

>>12801876
Most interventions makes a temporary disorder into a permanent one, and creates a whole host of new disorders.

>>12801886
In my country it is only forced in cases of severe self harm or causing danger to others

Severe endogenous depression is A physical condition just like Parkinsons is - some neurons in some parts of the brain are dead, causing specific symptoms.
I believe this to be true for most psych conditions, we just dont know neurobiology behind them yet.
Of course, the definitions arent perfect and there's a lot of grey areas here, hence the suffering criterium.

But there are a lot of people who are able to live, love and enjoy life because of proper medication

>>12801891
Citation needed, friend
Schizophrenia, severe depression, OCD or bipolar disorders arent temporary and progress if untreated

All I know is that a lot of mental problems are caused by bad parents.

>>12801919
Look it up.
Most depression resolves itself without intervention.
Drugs for ADHD have the same side-effects as the symptoms of bipolar.

>>12801169
What a bunch of strawmen and illogical conclusions. It's not any behavior that's an illness, it's harmful behavior caused by defective biology.

Yes drugs help patients. The fact that Thorazine helps the person taking care of the patient doesn't mean it can't also be helping the patient.

No one labeled emotional distress as an illness, it's a possible symptom of an illness.

If mental illness is a myth then go take care of a schizophrenic who thinks you're part of a conspiracy against him. It should be no problem for you.

>>12801913
>In my country it is only forced in cases of severe self harm or causing danger to others
Well in my country they can do it even if you so much as mention the fact that you've thought about suicide.

>Severe endogenous depression is A physical condition just like Parkinsons is - some neurons in some parts of the brain are dead, causing specific symptoms.
Depression is brought about by emotional stressors. Parkinson's isn't. Parkinson's is a proper degenerative disorder of the brain. Depression isn't.

>>12801913
>But there are a lot of people who are able to live, love and enjoy life because of proper medication
I've been in a mental hospital and met lots of patients. Never came across one of them who said they enjoyed life due to their medication. Most people in there don't want the medication. I do remember one woman screaming out that she wanted her risperidone (antipsychotic), and actually there was another man who was annoyed because he wasn't being given his drugs. But the majority of people I spoke to did not like the drugs.

>>12801923
Not endogenous depression; also survivor bias - the ones that dont resolve end in suicide.
I havent even mentioned ADHD

>>12801942
>Thorazine helps the person taking care of the patient
You mean chemically restrain/lobotomise the person, abuse the person, confine the person to a toxic environment, make money of the person.

>>12801945
>Parkinson's is a proper degenerative disorder of the brain.
Ironic how Parkinson's is a common longterm side effect of a lot of psychmed.

>annoyed because he wasn't being given his drugs
Yes, the only reason people on drugs want their drugs is because they don't want to go through withdrawal. Most psychdrug withdrawal is horrific and understated.

>>12801961
>You mean chemically restrain/lobotomise the person
Please explain why chemically restraining a person can't help them.

>abuse the person, confine the person to a toxic environment
No.

>make money of the person.
So if a hospital makes money it can't be helping people?

>>12801953
>Not endogenous depression; also survivor bias - the ones that dont resolve end in suicide.
There is no endogenous depression. Every depression resolves.
Taking an SSRI doubles the chance of suicide though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9cfjKOmPF8

>>12801961
>Ironic how Parkinson's is a common longterm side effect of a lot of psychmed.
Source?

>Yes, the only reason people on drugs want their drugs is because they don't want to go through withdrawal.
Source?

You're just making up outrageous claims. Why would anyone take you more seriously than doctors?

>>12801169
You are trying so hard to sound smart... it's painful. OP you are fucking retarded through and through.

>>12801975
>There is no endogenous depression. Every depression resolves.
Source?

>>12801945
Well of course you haven't met any, they're in a MENTAL HOSPITAL. Ask people outside of it, you know, the ones living functional lives because of medicine? Holy fuck you are fucking stupid.

>>12801971
>Please explain why chemically restraining a person can't help them.
Because it's difficult to treat the underlying cause if the person is chemically lobotomised. The person cannot think or express him-/herself. Also you're traumatising them with the coerced treatment (nobody takes Thorazine voluntarily), so literally making more problems out of it.

>So if a hospital makes money it can't be helping people?
Sure, but such hospitals don't exist.

>>12801977
>>12801979
t.pseudo intelectual

>>12801977
>Source?
>>12801979
>Source?
Source up your own claims

>>12801862
Medicine atleast has a chance of helping the person instead of irreparably ruining their life

>>12801999
>Medicine atleast has a chance of helping the person instead of irreparably ruining their life
The average gp kills one person a year. Doctors are the third leading cause of death.
Most people on psychdrugs are ruined for life by them.

>>12801997
I would like to see OP's sources. He is pulling information out of his ass.

>>12802004
gps are drug dispensers and paper pushers not doctors

>>12801989
>Because it's difficult to treat the underlying cause if the person is chemically lobotomised.
Thorazine is not a chemical lobotomy. It has been shown to improve thinking in psychotics. Please explain how you treat the underlying cause of schizophrenia, doctor.

>The person cannot think or express him-/herself.
Wrong.

>nobody takes Thorazine voluntarily
Why are you lying?

>Sure, but such hospitals don't exist.
They do, maybe not in your country, which is not the entire world.

>>12801994
>>12801997
>lies
>won't provide proof
>calls others pseudointellectual

people feeding other people shit while eating it themselves
entertaining thread

>>12802027
>It has been shown to improve thinking in psychotics.
No it hasn't.

>Please explain how you treat the underlying cause of schizophrenia, doctor.
Ugh, always converging talk about schizos and ignoring everything else. Take it from this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F_kLbtnWWM
Yeah, and a lot of psychdrugs induce supersensitivity which makes you schizo.

>Why are you lying?
Why are you lying

>They do, maybe not in your country, which is not the entire world.
Show me the significant number of hospitals that do.

>>12802053
btw Dr. Peter Breggin has never had a suicide in his practice and he doesn't use psychdrugs for treatment. And he takes a lot of severe cases.

>>12801169

Being a right-winger is a mental illness.

>>12802124
Never understood this social control argument, as having a lack of attention and not being able to dedicate yourself to a task isn't benefitial to you even disregarding the societal aspects. It sucks not being able to focus on a task, it doesn't matter whether you're doing it so that others can profit or for yourself.

>>12802053
>No it hasn't.
Wrong.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23810019/

>Ugh, always converging talk about schizos and ignoring everything else.
Schizophrenia is what Thorazine is most prescribed for. If you're going to make a broad claim then it should apply to the most relevant example.

>Take it from this guy
If rather take it from scientific research then some contrarian on YouTube.

>Yeah, and a lot of psychdrugs induce supersensitivity which makes you schizo.
Source?

>Why are you lying
I'm not, why did you lie about Thorazine not being taken voluntarily? It's a widely prescribed antipsychotic.

>Show me the significant number of hospitals that do
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_hospital

>>12802093
>btw Dr. Peter Breggin has never had a suicide in his practice
Neither have most psychiatrists. Most psychiatrists on the other hand don't ignore the scientific evidence that diseases like schizophrenia exist and don't categorically dismiss possible solutions to patient's problems.

>>12802173
>Wrong.
Wrong. Does not support you point.

>If rather take it from scientific research then some contrarian on YouTube.
You can't even spell or read scientific research.

>Source?
Look it up. You don't have sources for anything

>I'm not, why did you lie about Thorazine not being taken voluntarily?
I'm not. Why don't you give a source on people taking it voluntarily?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_hospital
Lol not a source.

God dammit anon you're retarded.
Go read Dr. Peter Bregging and Dr. Peter Gøtzsche. They will present to you all the evidence far better than anyone here can.

>Neither have most psychiatrists.
So now people don't commit suicide? So Peter Breggin has no suicides with no drugs while other psychiatrist have no suicides with drugs? I'd say that shows drugs don't work.

>Most psychiatrists on the other hand don't ignore the scientific evidence
Most psychiatrists cannot discern between good and bad scientific evidence.

If you want a dispelling of the psychiatric literature read "Deadly medicines and organised crime" and "Deadly psychiatry and organised denial". But you won't because you're a brainlet and can't read.

>>12801181
The problem is that it gets abused, both for political reasons (e.g., "sluggish schizophrenia") and for economic reasons (which comes back to political reason, since it's only possible to freely medicate 20% of the population if the government is funneling money to "insurance" companies and to pharmaceutical companies, who bribe part of it back to the doctors and politicians to make sure the money keeps flowing.)

>>12802169
>It sucks not being able to focus on a task
And not being able to focus on a task correlates with low IQ. Short attention span and inability to delay gratification is also correlated with low IQ. ADHD is a diagnosis given to children because the term "feeble-minded" fell out of use. It's the diagnosis given to the stupid but not yet mentally retarded children.

Low IQ is your curse. Not your inability to focus.

>>12802293
Not having attention for a task has nothing to do with intelligence, what are you talking about? If someone has problem focusing it doesn't mean he has low IQ, why do you think these two have a correlation?

>>12802293
More than half of adults qualify for the adult ADHD diagnosis.

>>12802333
>Not having attention for a task has nothing to do with intelligence, what are you talking about?
Both show significant correlations with each other, shown by a diverse number of independent studies. The average IQ of someone with an ADHD diagnosis is 84.

I have also questioned the validity of ADHD as an actual psychological thing. I personally assume that it is an artificial construct made by a group of interest groups including psychiatrists and the pharmaceutical industry to target a wide spectrum of children that have emotional issues, learning disabilities etc. with drugs generating billions in revenue for those involved.
>>12802338
It was common practice back then to assert that at least 20 % of all children are "feeble-minded". Depending on demographics, this percentage may have been as high as 80 %. Both terms "feeble-minded" and "ADHD" are incredibly vague and had very little to do with helping the patients.

>>12801169
>Is mental illness a myth?
>It's just categories of behaviour, which a group of doctors have decided, by their subjective whims, are "illnesses".

I used to agree with this assessment. Until the current year meme libtards and the faggos and the genital cutters. They have a mental illness where they must go along with the party line no matter how illogical or contradictory.

They are schizo bootlickers desu

>>12802375
>IQ of someone with an ADHD diagnosis is 84.
Oh no little anon is retarded.
Lets give him speed (Ritalin) so he can keep up with the others.
kek

>>12802375
>I have also questioned the validity of ADHD as an actual psychological thing

ADHD is just a way to drug aggressive Caucasian children and let Orc children run wild. You never seen them give Orc children ADHD meds.

it's impossible to know because you can't read people's minds but I think almost every mental problem can be overcome by putting your brain in the right environment(therapy, ect.)

>>12802208
>Does not support you point.
You're illiterate.

>You can't even spell or read scientific research.
Then why am I the only one posting any?

>Look it up.
The burden of proof is on you.

>I'm not.
Yes you are.

>Within 8 months of the introduction of chlorpromazine, approximately 2 million patients had received the drug.4 Chlorpromazine was 70% effective in relieving the hallucinations, delusions, and disorganized thought associated with schizophrenia.1 Unlike previous therapies, chlorpromazine made uncontrollable patients more manageable without rendering them unconscious.5 It suddenly seemed possible that schizophrenia could be a more treatable disease, and patients who had once been confined to living in an institutionalized environment could now visit art museums, meet relatives for dinner, and shop at stores with or without an attendant.3 One report describes a 29-year-old woman whose pre-chlorpromazine conduct was characterized by "self-inflicted injuries, temper tantrums, sullenness, and antagonistic behavior" toward staff and other patients. After the administration of the drug, her physician described her as "pleasant, cooperative, capable."6

>>12802208
>The effects of the drug seemed miraculous to physicians who had previously worked with patients with schizophrenia. Robert Cancro states, "It is difficult to communicate to younger colleagues the miracle that 150 to 300 mg of chlorpromazine a day appeared to be to the house officers of 1956."7 Heinz Lehmann, who introduced chlorpromazine to North America, was astonished by the results of this new agent: "Two or three of the acute schizophrenics became symptom-free. Now I had never seen that before. I thought it was a fluke—something that would never happen again but anyway there they were. At the end of four or five weeks, there were a lot of symptom-free patients. By this, I mean that a lot of hallucinations, delusions, and thought disorder had disappeared. In 1953, there just wasn't anything that ever produced something like this—remission from schizophrenia in weeks."3

>Eventually, the widespread use of chlorpromazine resulted in an the deinstitutionalization of large numbers of patients with schizophrenia. Although the behavior of schizophrenic patients was once considered to be incompatible with independent functioning in society, the drug enabled thousands to lead lives outside psychiatric institutions. In 1953, the highest point of population in mental hospitals was 560 000, and by 1975 this number had dropped by two thirds to 193 000.8

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1844717

Now please explain how millions of people were forced to take Thorazine while living independently.

>Lol not a source.
The sources are cited.

>God dammit anon you're retarded.
Go read Dr. Peter Bregging and Dr. Peter Gøtzsche.
Sure, as soon as you give me their published research.

>So now people don't commit suicide?
You're illiterate.

>So Peter Breggin has no suicides with no drugs while other psychiatrist have no suicides with drugs? I'd say that shows drugs don't work.
Very scientific.

>>12802208
>Most psychiatrists cannot discern between good and bad scientific evidence.
Your opinion is not credible.

>If you want a dispelling of the psychiatric literature
What I want is for you to stop lying.

>>12802424
No you haven't provided shit while I have referred to some good ones.

The burden is actually on you to prove that something does anything better than doing nothing.

And wow, what a bunch of subjective unscientific nonsense you're quoting.

I gave you the name of the researcher. You don't need me to look up their research.

Lol your source are the sources on the wiki page for private hospital. How fucking stupid are you.

>>12802522
>Your opinion is not credible.
That is why I refer you to people who's opinion is.
Dr. Peter Gøtzsche has 70+ articles in the big 5 journals and almost 150000 citations and he is a professor in research design and analysis. He is literally one of the most credible people to talk about what is good research and what is bullshit and he shows in "Deadly medicines" with overwhelming evidence (not my words but of one of the reviewers) that psychopharma is fraudulent and harmful. Everything is there.

>What I want is for you to stop lying.
You're lying or just really naïve

>>12802527
>No you haven't provided shit while I have referred to some good ones.
Take your meds, your hallucinating.

>The burden is actually on you to prove that something does anything better than doing nothing.
That burden has already been met. Your turn.

>And wow, what a bunch of subjective unscientific nonsense you're quoting.
It's called history, and everything in it is cited.

>I gave you the name of the researcher.
You have me a YouTube video, not a researcher or research.

>You don't need me to look up their research.
What research? It's not my job to prove your argument, it's your job. Did I ask you to prove Thorazine works?

>Lol your source are the sources on the wiki page for private hospital.
And? Keep denying the existence of thousands of private hospitals throughout the world. It really helps your credibility.

>>12802646
Wow you've gone full retard.
Read through the thread again if you're literate enough.

>>12802544
>That is why I refer you to people who's opinion is. Dr. Peter Gøtzsche has 70+ articles in the big 5 journals and almost 150000 citations and he is a professor in research design and analysis.
Then why did he lie about the IFR of CPVID-19 being the same as the flu? https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4509/rr

Why was he kicked out of the Cochrane?

Must be another big pharma conspiracy. Or he's just another contrarian quack who went overboard.

>>12802660
No argument, thanks for admitting you lied.

>>12802684
So strawmanning and saying otherwise nothing qualifies as an argument for you. You're such a fool

>>12802679
I don't see a lie, only you being a liar.
>Why was he kicked out of the Cochrane?
Explained in Death of a whistleblower and Cochrane’s moral collapse.

>>12801942
>it's harmful behavior
Even if it is harmful behaviour, adults are adults - they are (or should be) responsible for their own behaviour. This is why I object to forced / involuntary psychiatry.

>caused by defective biology
Mental illnesses aren't diagnosed according to "defective biology" though. Doctors don't diagnose a brain issue, through brain scans or whatever, and say "oh this is why you're behaving unusually". Instead they just categorise your BEHAVIOUR. Although I know that brain scans are done in mental health sometimes, but a lot of the time they're not.

>The fact that Thorazine helps the person taking care of the patient doesn't mean it can't also be helping the patient.
That just sounds like a convenient excuse. In any case, drugs like Thorazine / chlorpromazine are often given to patients against their will. They're not allowed to make a judgement of whether they think it's helping them or not. That's immoral.

>If mental illness is a myth then go take care of a schizophrenic who thinks you're part of a conspiracy against him. It should be no problem for you.
I've met schizophrenics, including ones who believed in conspiracies. Most of the schizophrenics I met were perfectly nice people. Others were a little dysfunctional. Thankfully none of them were ever malicious towards me - maybe it was because they were on drugs, I don't know.

Maybe schizophrenia is a myth, I don't know enough about it to be sure though.

>>12801985
Even patients who are in the community and on strong psychiatric drugs will probably have been in mental hospital at some point, you fucking moron.

>>12801735
This is circumcised behavior.

Not even circum/sci/sed either, just circumcised.

Take your meds.

>>12801961
>Ironic how Parkinson's is a common longterm side effect of a lot of psychmed.
Well parkinsonism can be. Along with other extrapyramidal side effects.

>Yes, the only reason people on drugs want their drugs is because they don't want to go through withdrawal. Most psychdrug withdrawal is horrific and understated.
Maybe. I dunno. I didn't ask this guy why he wanted his drugs so badly. But like I said, I would say most people I came across did not like their drugs.

>>12801169
>Is mental illness a myth?
No.
>And do mental illness drugs really help patients?
Usually only with the extreme ones (i.e schizophrenia, suicidal depression, etc.)
>I contend that mental illness is a myth, designed to control "troublesome" people.
Yes and no. Mental illnesses themselves aren't myths but they are frequently massively overdiagnosed to sell pills and treatments as well as corral unruly kids (ADHD, depression, autism, and plenty of others). One other thing is that some are not uncommonly just a symptom of a person's environment and improving their environment would eliminate the perceived mental illness.

>>12801999
>>12802004
Dealing with psychiatrists for my major depressive disorder helped me realize psychiatry and drugs were an absolute meme treatment that would only ruin my life in the long run. What helped me get way better was leaving the environment I was in, and reading a mix of philosophy, psychology, and religion/history to see how people lived fulfilling lives in the past so I could see what I was doing wrong in my own.
This only really applies to Depression/Anxiety, I imagine more extreme things like schizophrenia and bpd would need actual treatment, however I believe most people end up going to the doctor for things that are completely treatable by themselves.