/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12776605
it doesnt the vaccine is super nice and the technology is super nice and that's why all the jews got it
don't take the adenoviral vector shit

/thread

BELIEVE SCIENCE YOU BIGOT

>>12776605
mutilating schizos with these tools prevented them to have sex and reproduce, thus it was not a bad practice... eugenically speaking.

>>12776605
you could start by understanding how it works. doubt you will ever even read an abstract, though. back to /pol/, schizo

>>>/pol/

It's not gene therapy. Your cells use mRNA to produce proteins. The mRNA in the vaccine codes for the production of spike proteins on the corona virus (which gives it it's name). Your immune system identifies those spike proteins as being foreign contaminants and eliminates them, which trains your immune system to recognize and deal with the spike proteins on the actual coronavirus.

If you need a child-tier analogy your immune system is like a police department and you're sending them a picture of the suspect. They'll beat anyone matching that description to death and then get two weeks paid vacation as a reward.

>>12776616
>/threading your own post
Hard cringe

>>12776605
>alleged immunity
Proven immunity.
>gene therapy
It doesn't even come close to your genes.
>not actually causing an autoimmune disorder.
Prove that it does. Also 8 months of studying.

>>12776790
>like a police department and you're sending them a picture of the suspect
Does it work better if we color the spikes black?

>>12776605
Lobotomies usually worked though. There were a high number of botched lobotomies in the early days due to our limited understanding of the brain, and these led to pretty nasty side effects, but they were still the minority. The media sensationalized these botched cases, so you are trusting a media narrative over people who actually know what they were talking about.

>>12776605
STUPID SCIENCE BITCH

https://youtu.be/NFPtjXFfczM

>>12776822
In a real police department, absolutely, but even then I know a guy that was pulled from his car at gunpoint because his name was the same as some pedophile that lived two states over and was thought to have fled. The descriptions weren't even close either. The pedo was a 6' something guy that weighed something like 160 pounds and the guy I know is like 5'2 and fat as hell. Quality police work all around. I bet they all got medals.

>>12776829
>worked
Lol, no. Stating that "the subjects behavior was much improved after the procedure" is not the same as it working unless you only goal is to keep your patients drooling into their oatmeal rather than to provide actual treatment.

>>12776790
it literally is gene therapy
>Gene therapy (also called human gene transfer) is a medical field which focuses on the utilization of the therapeutic delivery of nucleic acids into a patient's cells as a drug to treat disease

The pharmas want to experiment on people, some of those vial probably kill 50% + of the people that will take them as there is meddling from the depopulation crowd.

>>12776872
If the patient goes from drooling then their oatmeal 24 hours a day to being able to hold down a steady job, then it is a success. Lobotomies didn't stop because they were ineffective, they stopped because of the development of psychiatric drugs which achieved the same outcomes with much lower risk. The idea that lobotomies invariably turn people into drooling retards is a fabrication of the media based on a handful of high profile failures. It wasn't a great procedure by modern standards, but it was the best and only option available at the time.

>>12776929
A vaccine isn't a treatment.

>>12776929
That's a very broad definition that makes pretty much every vaccine a form of gene therapy. In that case you've already had many rounds of gene therapy in your life so why should this one be of any concern?

>>12776948
how is introducing attenuated virus into your bloodstream the delivery of nucleic acids into your cells?

>>12776939
>Destroying someone's personality by damaging their frontal lobe to improve their behavior is a valid and effective treatment
Sure, kid. Let's just lobotomize anyone who misbehaves so they can work and keep buying things. I hear it works great on lesbians and children with ADHD.

>>12776947
So it's gene therapy if it's treating existing disease, but it's not gene therapy if it's treating potential future disease?

>>12776961
>He doesn't know that viruses have RNA
Everyone point and laugh

>>12776975
Maybe you should update the wikipedia page and point out that all vaccinations are a form of gene therapy

>>12776980
Or maybe you shouldn't try to use wikipedia to define medical terms

>>12776987
Got a better definition of gene therapy for me?

>>12776996
No. I wouldn't waste my time looking up a definition for someone who's "research" stops at wikipedia.

>>12777001
So you do not know a better definition than
>Gene therapy (also called human gene transfer) is a medical field which focuses on the utilization of the therapeutic delivery of nucleic acids into a patient's cells as a drug to treat disease

>>12777007
I don't have the medical definition memorized and I can't be bothered to look it up. If you think anyone working in the medical field uses wikipedia as a reference text then you're pants-on-head retarded.

>>12777016
Do you think the Moderna vaccine is an example of gene therapy?

>>12777028
I don't think any mRNA vaccine can be considered gene therapy

So calling the vaccine gene therapy is just to make it sound scarier?

>>12777049
Why

>>12777065
Because it doesn't affect your genes. Look up a valid medical definition for more information.

I only have a problem with the Pfizer vaccine, they changed the formula several times between trials, and are hiding what those changes are with the results.

>>12776969
No, a treatment treats a disease. A vaccine prevents it.

>>12777078
There isn't one canonical definition of that phrase, but every single definition I've seen so far applies to mRNA vaccines

>>12777086
if I get a jab while sick with covid and it helps my symptoms clear up, was it a treatment?

>>12777089
The definition you posted contradicts that statement via >>12776947
The very word "therapy" means treating something.

>>12777095
Yes. How is that relevant?

>>12777100
What's the phrase for the medical field which focuses on the utilization of the therapeutic delivery of nucleic acids into a patient's cells as a drug to prevent disease

>>12777089
>canonical
Guess how I know you have no idea what you're talking about and that you haven't looked anything up

>>12777108
So if I get an mRNA vaccine while having covid it's gene therapy, but if I get it while not having covid it's not

What the fuck is this retarded squabble about gene therapy?

>>12777117
>get an mRNA vaccine while having covid
it would be pretty fucking pointless.

>>12777113
Perhaps you're sitting in front of a hard copy of The Official Medical Dictionary, the legendary tome containing the precise universally agreed-upon definition of the phrase "gene therapy"

>>12777124
It would be pointless whether or not you have it

>>12776755
>/pol/ /pol/ /pol/
You're a fucking moron. There is nothing wrong with discussing this vaccine that's had 6 months of trials tops. None of the manufactures can say that there will no adverse long term effects and none of them can say how long the immunity will last, because they don't know.
The vaccines come with side effects and a significant number of people have died after receiving it.
There is a discussion to be had that doesn't mean anyone with concerns is a nazi

>>12777130
Nope. Perhaps you could find the accepted canon on fandom.com/wiki/medicine

>>12776968
>lock people in insane asylums or leave them raving in the gutter because the media told me the alternative is scary
Forcing people to have lobotomies was extremely rare and again shows how much your view of the procedure is based solely on television. Usually people sought lobotomies for themselves because, yes, they wanted to be productive members of society. Again, the procedure is rendered obsolete by modern drugs, but for half of the 20th century it was the most effective treatment available.

>>12776605
All i know is the 2nd shot made my mom very sick, she still is.

>>12777401
If those people "need" lobotomies then they aren't legally sound of mind and can't legally consent. Furthermore how many people got lobotomized because their doctor told them it would fix all their problems and they'd still essentially be the same afterwards? I bet most people's behavior would be "improved" by a lobotomy, but that doesn't mean it's a valid behavioral treatment and it certainly doesn't make it ethical.

>>12777203
good job
seriously though, still waiting for you to come up with a single definition of gene therapy that does not apply to mrna vax

>>12777470
>still waiting for you to spoonfeed me
I'm still waiting for you to suck my dick or learn how google works

>>12777481
every definition google gives me applies to mrna vax

>>12777494
Sure, kid. The only one you've quoted is from wikipedia so I doubt you've understood any others you've found, if you've even bothered to look.

>>12777504
here's one from Medline
>Gene therapy is an experimental technique that us

>>12777520
>Gene therapy is an experimental technique that us
Good job. Great definition.

>>12777532
You can check it yourself
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/therapy/genetherapy/
Here's another one, from Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary 23rd edition
>Gene therapy is a medical field which focuses on the utilization of the therapeutic delivery of nucleic acids into a patient's cells as a drug to treat disease.

>>12776790
Okay but why
Why not just do a regular vaccine.
Russia has a normal antigen one.
Why do we need rushed experimental vaccines for a virus that already has treatment with normal anti-virals/anti-malarials.

>>12776626
You can’t believe in in science, science is the absolute absence of belief and it only true definition is proof. You cultist believing in science have perverted the world by even uttering it in a sentence that in it’s is nonsense. You cannot believe in science. Science is believing only what can be proven. Everything else is conjecture. If you need to believe in something it means you are having faith in an outcome that is not proven

>>12777558
>Russia has a normal antigen one.
Not at all. Sputnik V is a vector-based vaccine. It delivers DNA to cells instead of mRNA like the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine do.

>>12777549
>>12777549
I was pointing out that you posted half a definition. You didn't even include all of "uses" in what you copied and pasted. Besides that the definition on that page specifies using entire genes, not mRNA, and the other definition you posted excludes preventative measures like vaccines, but is broad enough to include nearly ALL vaccines if you add in "or prevent".

Would you like to try again, or do you want to find some other scary term to describe covid vaccines?

>>12776677
Why is murder ok for science people but not the rest of us. Eugenicists are murders. No we need to kill eugenicists in self defense.

Well you could consider mRNA vaccines and virus vector vaccines gene therapy based on the definition of delivering nucleic acids into patient's cells but it can be seen as counterintuitive as layman see gene therapy as treatment where the patient's genetic code is modified (which it isn't in this case) and since, in the case of covid, mRNA technology is used as a prophylactic and not as a treatment.

>>12776605
>gene therapy
>doesn't actually modify a person's genetic code
well that's just stupid

>>12777615
Eugenics doesn't necessarily rely on killing or sterilizing those with bad genes. A system that encourages those with good genes to breed and penalizes those with bad genes who breed is statistically equivalent. Like behavioral tax codes on liquor or cigarettes. Such a system shifts the ethical question to "who determines which genes are bad?" rather than "is eugenics ethical?". What if there was a dating app that matched people based on fitness, or mathematical ability, or lack of susceptability to cancer, or any arbitrary positive trait? That could be seen as a form of eugenics since you're encouraging desirable people to breed with each other, even if the behavior you're selecting for is environmental rather than genetic. Would such a dating app be ethical?

>>12776755
I do understand how it works do you? mRNA is the blue print that tell your cells what to replicate, when you take this mRNA vaccine you are genetically modifying your own body to produce a portion of the genetics of the COVID-19 causing virus. The spike protein. So you’re healthy cells have been gmo’d to create spike protein cells, you body them act as if you have an autoimmune disease. And attacks the cells your body was tricked into making. Please explain to me how this is not giving you an autoimmune disorder.

>>12777667
healthy cells aren't genetically modified by mRNA vaccines

>>12777667
Oh, no. It's retarded

>>12776790
It is genetic modifying your body to produce that spike protein. Dude this is science you can gaslight people all you want but words have meanings you Homicidal big pharmaceutical lobbyists want to forget about. Murder is the one you need to look up the meaning for. Because that what you are doing.

>>12776815
Ok your body is attacking it’s own cells like they are a foreign body. That is the definition of an autoimmune disorder is it not?

>>12777694
Wrong

>>12777694
I guess a viral infection is also an autoimmune disorder by this logic.

What the fuck is so hard to understand about this

>>12777702
And all vaccines for that matter

>>12777667

>>12777158
you have a schizo board, go back. go home.

>>>/pol/

>>12777049
But science facts are irrefutable. This mRNA genetically modifies its victims. You splitting hairs and confusing the issue. Point in fact. They are using gene therapy technology. That could be used in a much more effective manner to provide the natural immune system of healthy young people, to cut corners on what that disgusting industry thinks will be it’s next big cash cow, instead of it’s ultimate demise.

>>12777744
>genetically modifies
how does it modify the genetic code of people?
which chromosome?
how does it get into the nucleus of the cell?

>>12777744
>This mRNA genetically modifies its victims
Wrong. It temporary hijacks ribosomes in order to create the same spike proteins that exist on the corona virus. The rest is a natural function of your immune system. Notice how your genes are unaffected and never even come up in the process.

>>12777744
>gene therapy

you keep saying that but you clearly don't understand what it means.

>>12777680
Well the question is are the cells this mRNA vaccine causes you to build that you wouldn’t otherwise build healthy cells? They are gmo cells caused by this “medicine” are they not? Would you body have produced these cells with out the mRNA, if you get the virus organically it could not be considered an autoimmune disorder. But since this is being inflicted unnaturally on an otherwise healthy cell, how can this new process be called any thing other than an autoimmune disorder?

>>12777702
No because a virus is present, this would be called a natural immune response. Is not an autoimmune disorder what happens when your body attacks itself?

>>12777789
>They are gmo cells caused by this “medicine” are they not?
No, they are not

>>12777784
Sounds very nefarious and scary though

>>12777709
That image is not correct for the Covid vaccine. The nanoparticle targets immature muscular cells that only have class II MHC. This is to produce a shit load of antibodies.

>>12777770
The cells that are produced are people cells with virus mRNA. Duh dude. Your body is being use to make the stuff, it’s not using your mRNA, mRNA is genetic material.

>>12777615
because if we are to survive as a race, billions must die.

>>12777805
Yes they are, you are genetically modifying your patients. Gene therapy doesn’t just pertain to Designer children in petri dishes when you Gene alter a living human it’s not a permanent modification of their entire genetic code, you are introducing mRNA to create the modification.

>>12777803
This is getting very silly. It's called autoimmune *disorder* for a reason.

>>12777728
you're a fag

>>12777822
>it’s not a permanent modification of their entire genetic code
it's not a modification of their genetic code at all

>>12777822
So by your logic every bacterium and virus you come into contact with alters your genetic code?

Spoiler: you're retarded

>>12777558
The mRNA vaccine was published mostly to obtain patents on the techniques used to produce this type of vaccine.
The vector technology, used on russian and chinese vaccines, can be used by any laboratory as it has no patent.

The mRNA technology (as in means of injecting mRNA within an organism without it degrading before translation can happen) is relatively new, and there were some trials being done before the beginning of the pandemic. In sum, Pfizer and Moderna took the theoretical information that existed on this technology and created this new type of vaccine.

In sum, US pharma companies decided not to create a regular vaccine as they wanted to obtain patents on their vaccines. Having a patent equals obtaining exclusive production and selling rights, bringing more money to the patent holders. Considering they already had the theoretical research done before the pandemic, researchers could publish their vaccines at around the same time as other vector-using vaccines.
The existance of a patent and the use of new technology also explains why Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are so much more expensive in comparison to Sputnik V.
Also, though this last part is my interpretation, I believe Moderna made some last moment changes on their vaccine production to guarantee they will obtain a patent (since without it their vaccine manufacturing process would be too similar to Pfizer's and would not qualify for a patent). Thus, Moderna made a vaccine that could be stored in less cold temperatures than Pfizer's vaccine and obtained a patent of their own.

>>12777558
>Why do we need rushed experimental vaccines for a virus that already has treatment with normal anti-virals/anti-malarials.

Producing a vaccine, in the long term is much more economical for patients than buying treatment every time the get sick.
However, on the point of view of Big Pharma, not producing a vaccine can be very profitable. So, if I was the CEO of some pharma company with little in terms of moral values I would absolutely want people to not vaccinate, it will increase my profits.

>>12777608
>specifies using entire genes, not mRNA
RNA is composed of genes as well, retard:
>In biology, a gene (from Greek, meaning generation) is a basic unit of heredity and a sequence of nucleotides in DNA or RNA that encodes the synthesis of a gene product, either RNA or protein
or RNA
from Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary (32ed)

>Would you like to try again, or do you want to find some other scary term to describe covid vaccines?
Do you want me to try again? I have several medical dictionaries at my disposal.

>>12777825
what's the reason?

>>12777933
genes are made of DNA, period. Theyre inside the cells nucleus.
mRNA is a different molecule that let's use the nucleus information in the cells cytoplasm.
Now, let's think for a moment, if the mRNA from the vaccine enters a cell, and that mRNA is used in the cytoplasm by the ribosomes and other enzymes to produce proteins.... Where the fuck does DNA or anything inside the nucleus appear here? Where?

>>12777933
>RNA is composed of genes as well
Imagine being this retarded

>>12777933
Oh my god, RNA is composed of genes. That was quite a laugh.

>>12777980
>>12777978
>>12777966
what the fuck do you retards think a gene is

What did the mRNA vaccine mean by this?

Is it trying to tell us something?

Eh, probably fine, everyone should just get it no questions asked.

>>12778001
A gene is made up of DNA, DNA becomes RNA and mRNA within the cell nucleus.
A gene has a lot more information within it than a piece of mRNA used to code one protein.

>>12777935
If you're sad one day doesn't mean you have a depressive disorder.

>>12778017
Well, I will clarify, DNA doesn't become RNA, it is transcripted (however it is called in english) into RNA.

>>12778020
are you saying disorder implies something chronic?

>>12778017
I suppose we disagree on definitions. A gene is a sequence of nucleotides.

>>12778046
You are wrong you stupid NEET gtfo of here.That's just wrong dumb shit.

>>12778046
Yes, a gene is made of nucleotides. DNA is also made of nucleotides, as well as RNA. It is correct, though it is a broad definition.

>>12778046
a gene has introns and exons, mRNA doesn't have introns.

>>12778054
Nuh uh think gene refers to the actual physical molecule, but it refers to the abstracted string of nucleotides, i.e.
>AAAGTCTGAC

>>12778074
Yes, but we are talking about genes and nucleotides, not introns and exons. Stay on subject please.

>>12778079
I haven't switched from the subject, in fact I am pointing out how a gene is not the same as mRNA. Sure, mRNA is the key to translate a gene into a protein; but to say genes are composed of RNA is far from truth.

>>12778002
>What did the mRNA vaccine mean by this?
I don't know, you tell me

>>12777684
I don't think you understand what "genetic modification" means

>>12777822
Holy shit an actual retarded karen found /sci/

>>12778017
fucking idiot. And you can't even post a definition because it's "spoonfeeding"? any dumber than this and we'll have to water you.

>>12778096
Yes, I corrected myself in a reply to myself. And, yes what you are saying is true : genes are not made from RNA.

>>12778115
Since when have I mentionned spoonfeeding, I'm just trying to explain what genes are made of.

>>12778115
If I am correct you are this very same anon >>12777933, use the dictionary and post here the best definition of gene you find so we can use it in the discussion

>>12777880
interesting.

>>12776605
go back to /pol/ faggot

>>12778074
No, a DNA molecule has introns and exons. The gene is the sequence of nucleotides. Two strands of DNA are the same gene if the sequences of nucleotides are the same.

>>12778154
the definition in that post is the best definition I have ever seen in my life, and it implies mRNA molecules contain genes

>>12778245
there are viruses like the hepatitis A virus or the SARS-Cov-2 virus have a RNA genome. Their genes are made of RNA. Good.
Human cells however have a DNA genome.

>>12778278
Agreed, genes are stored physically as DNA in human cells. They also manifest as RNA during cellular processes.

>>12778240
>The gene is the sequence of nucleotides
Indeed, which introns and exons are a part of as they are a sequence of nucleotides.

>>12778595
some genes contain introns and extrons, some do not

>>12777857
Are you retarded? Yes. To the point that humans have random parts of multiple viri embedded in our genetic structure at this point, about 8% of our DNA. And its theorized that many actually helped with our evolution.

The point is, yes. Foreign organisms of DNA and otherwise affect the genome. And that was before we had 7+billion members of our species in different environments with continuous contact and large percentage of members with weak immune systems and weak specimens and aged members.

So what we do is, introduce an intelligently designed mRNA transcript injection and control packet into the biosphere of organisms that rip apart protein snippets and stitch them into their side for fun.

Fuck this planet.

>>12777007
This is the most broad and general definition you can find. It’s like saying cooking is what you do when you take heat and put food on it. Like technically you are right but it is a very gross definition

>>12777587
Unlike math, nothing is truly "proven" in science. Certain ideas simply have more physical evidence for them and are thus considered "true" until something better comes along. Classical mechanics being superseded by both relativistic and quantum mechanics is a prime example of this. Ultimately, it IS a matter of belief, but believing anything else would be to say that you either have superior contradictory evidence, or are simply a fool.

>>12776605
The shot doesnt do anything that some viruses dont already do.
Viruses can cause auto immune disorders.
Therefore the shot could. But so could a normal vaccine and so could not getting any vaccine but catching covid.

Auto immune disorders are kind of shit and we really aught to figure out how to correct them somehow.

I’ll just leave this here

>>12776605
It's not modifying your genes any more than a virus that makes you sick. The vaccine is delivered by a viroid that hijacks a few cells to make them product a protein from covid in order to provoke an immune response.

In fact, it doesn't even need to go in the nuclear, hence why it is an mRNA vaccine not a DNA vaccine.

>>12777789
Autoimmune disorders happen naturally

>>12778736
>Yes. To the point that humans have random parts of multiple viri embedded in our genetic structure at this point, about 8% of our DNA. And its theorized that many actually helped with our evolution
Yes, some viri have embedded themselves into the human genome but not every single one encountered as not all are capable of genetic modification.

>>12777117
No, since the vaccine doesn't treat the disease. It's anything, it makes it worse by introducing even more spikes your body has to fight.

>>12777112
You don't want to understand what therapy means. It's pointless.

ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY DISCUSSING WITH A COMPLETE RETARD WHO THINKS mRNA FROM THE VACCINES EVEN TOUCHES OUR GENOME IN WHATEVER WAY AND WHO DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RNA AND mRNA?

>>12776605
to add on to what everyone else has already said, the "spike protein" is directly responsible for mediating the virus' entry into the cell. since the spike protein is integral for viral entry and thus replication, its amino acid sequence, and by consequence its mRNA sequence, needs to be highly conserved among CoV variants. this makes the mRNA vaccine readily applicable for use against multiple CoV strains.

once produced, the spike protein is ubiquitinated and degraded by a proteasome, and the fragments are presented by MHC-I to your T cells, which trigger an immune response. how exactly T-cells recognize foreign proteins is still debated, but one way they do so is binding time: foreign MHC/peptide complexes tend to take longer to bind to T cell receptors than self ones. it's like how the longer it takes for you to recognize a person, the more likely it is that you don't know that person very well, and you don't really know how to interact with them as a result.

it also doesn't encourage viral replication/spread on its own for a few reasons:
>your ribosomes produce the spike protein, which since it's already in the cell, has no function because it works specifically by binding to ACE2 receptors on the outside of the plasma membrane
>proteins can't readily diffuse out of the cell because the membrane blocks large hydrophilic molecules from entering or leaving. in order for the spike protein to leave the cell, it would have to trigger some sort of exocytosis, involving direction to the ER or the golgi; instructions for this need to be in the mRNA sequence. as the spike protein is a viral surface protein, it won't have such capability.
>spike protein's status being a surface protein means neither it or its coding mRNA have a nuclear localization sequence necessary to enter the nucleus and access the genome
>if the protein does leave, binding will achieve nothing; there is no viral replication machinery (such as reverse transcriptase) to implant in the cell

>>12778736
Are you being retarded on purpose or you born like that?

>>12777777

>>12779377
Obviously, we are retarded as well.

>>12781425
I only pretend to be retarded hehe

is vaccine safe? people are memeing me into "2 years not pass, phase 3 safe distribution, neurological disease, autism" thx

>>12779377
>WHO DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RNA AND mRNA
mRNA is a type of RNA. I don't think vaccines touch our genome, I just consider them a form of gene therapy, as it involves the insertion of new genes into our cells
>b-b-but rna isn't genes
fill in the blank: "the mRNA vaccine delivers _____ for SARS-n-word-2 spike proteins into your cells"
>t. complete retard

>>12781760
>Imagine being so retarded that you thought mRNA was a gene

>>12781984
>imagine being so retarded that you thought an email was a word

>>12782013
Lol wow, you're really fuckin' dumb. mRNA doesn't contain genes either, moron.

>>12782037
fill in the blank: "the mRNA vaccine delivers _____ for SARS-n-word-2 spike proteins into your cells"

>>12776605
Take the experimental mysterious serum. What could go wrong?

>>12782049
Is the word you're looking for "mRNA"? Are you aware that mRNA is not a gene, does not contain genes, does not code for genes, and has almost nothing to do with genes?

You must have had some wikipedia-tier education.

>>12782064
no the word I'm looking for is something like "blueprint", "instructions", but a more scientific word. It's on the tip of my tongue

>>12782077
You are completely retarded. mRNA is that "blueprint". Ribosomes in your cells accept that mRNA and synthesize the spike proteins coded for in that mRNA. No part of this process has anything to do whatsoever with genes.

>>12782121
Ohh gene. Thanks anon, the word was gene.

>first, protein-based vaccines that generate target antigens in vitro such as inactivated virus vaccines, virus-like particles and protein subunit vaccines; second, gene-based vaccines that deliver genes encoding viral antigens to host cells for in vivo production such as virus-vectored vaccines, DNA vaccines and mRNA vaccines; and, third, a combination of both protein-based and gene-based approaches to produce protein antigen or antigens both in vitro and in vivo

>The technology relies on a small piece of messenger RNA (mRNA) from the coronavirus genome. It delivers a gene that codes for the coronavirus' spike protein.

>In newer gene-based designs—viral vector, DNA, and mRNA vaccines—scientists synthesize and insert genetic instructions from the pathogen of interest to induce immune responses.

>The first report of the successful use of in vitro transcribed (IVT) mRNA in animals was published in 1990, when reporter gene mRNAs were injected into mice and protein production was detected.

>>12782161
So your reading comprehension is shit-tier also. Everything you've quoted supports everything I've been telling you. Go work on that reading comprehension, and then take some basic cellular biology classes so you know what you're talking about.

Let me remind you that mRNA is not a gene, does not code for genes, and does not contain genes. Words don't change their meaning just because you want them to.

>>12782200
what is the word for a sequence of nucleotides in an mRNA molecule which codes for a specific protein?

>>12782213
It's "mRNA" as in "messenger RNA". You'd know this if you had any idea what you were talking about.

>>12782221
the sequence of nucleotides in an mRNA molecule is itself called "mRNA"?

>>12782229
Yep. You're getting it now. Every gene is a sequence of nucleotides, but not every sequence of nucleotides is a gene. Just like squares and rectangles.

This is why I said you should take a class.

>>12782239
Is there a word for a sequence of nucleotides that applies both to DNA and RNA?

>>12782246
No. You're attempting to use a semantic argument to insist that every rectangle is a square. This is why I told you that words don't change their meaning just because you want them to.

>>12782257
So the sentence
>The technology relies on a small piece of messenger RNA (mRNA) from the coronavirus genome. It delivers a gene that codes for the coronavirus' spike protein.
how is a gene being delivered?

>>12776929
>also called human gene transfer
You can't transfer genes using RNA, it breaks the central dogma of biology.
RNA is only used to express or regulate gene expression through the synthesis of proteins, genes themselves are only encoded in DNA.

If it doesn't alter your DNA, it doesn't alter your genome.

>>12782283
>For COVID-19 vaccines, a modified virus delivers a gene that instructs our cells to make a SARS-CoV-2 antigen called the spike protein
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hcp/viral-vector-vaccine-basics.html

>>12782272
It's not. There is no gene being delivered. Only mRNA is being delivered and it's just an instruction set that tells ribosomes how to synthesize covid's spike protein.

mRNA is not a gene in the same way that a rectangle is not a square.

>>12782300
>an instruction set that tells ribosomes how to synthesize covid's spike protein
aka a gene

>>12782295
That's wrong. They use a lipid macromolecule that binds to the cell wall and becomes absorbed.

>>12782302
>Imagine being this retarded
You have confirmed that you have no idea how cellular biology works. Fuck off until you understand what you're talking about.

>>12782295
Delivers a gene from the virus, COVID has an RNA genome, but humans do not.

>>12782306
it's specifically a page about viral vector mRNA vaccines
Here's another

https://news.vcu.edu/article/Why_the_Johnson__Johnson_vaccine_could_mark_a_turning_point_in
>The virus delivers a gene that carries the blueprint of the spike protein SARS-COV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. It’s essentially delivering that genetic information to your ribosome, which subsequently makes the spike protein. It is a more traditional vaccine approach.

>>12782315
so there *is* a gene which is delivered, in the form of mRNA?

>>12782312
>>12782315
https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/covid-vaccines-focus-on-the-spike-protein-but-heres-another-target
>The three most advanced vaccines (from Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna) all work by getting our own cells to make copies of the virus spike protein. The Oxford vaccine achieves this by introducing the spike protein gene via a harmless adenovirus vector. The other two vaccines deliver the spike protein gene directly as mRNA wrapped in a nanoparticle.

>>12782326
>Posting a college news paper to support your misconceptions
That "genetic material" is mRNA. Not a gene.

>>12782332
It's delivered and the protein it codes for is expressed, but the gene isn't transferred. Gene *transfer* is terminology you would use for something like plasmids, which bacteria use to change the DNA of other bacteria around them.

>>12782358
>mRNA vaccines: SARS-CoV-2 is an RNA virus, having RNA (ribonucleic acid) as its genetic material. Several COVID-19 vaccines use an artificial fragment (in the form of messenger RNA or mRNA) of the gene that encodes the spike protein. This mRNA gene fragment is coated with a thin layer of fatty material (lipid) that allows the gene to enter the vaccine recipient’s cells. The recipient’s cells then use this artificial gene to synthesize the spike protein, which then stimulates a protective immune response.
https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/news/editorial/2021/01/11/21/23/update-on-covid-19-vaccines

>>12782350
Why do you keep posting stuff that proves you wrong? Everything I've been telling you is supported by what you've quoted.

This is exactly what I meant about your wikipedia-tier education. You don't even understand what you're reading when it's been dumbed down.

>>12782332
Its not a fucking gene in the way you're trying to use the word faggot. It is completely and totally outside genetic DNA. The mRNA vacs work through the exact same mechanisms the virus it self does. And sarscov2 does not integrate with DNA ever.

>>12782381
it is a gene in the way I'm trying to use the word, which is "sequence of nucleotides" in the abstract. It is not a gene in the way the other guy is using the word, which is "portion of DNA molecule"

>>12782373
See
>>12782380

You're still not understanding anything you've read or been told. Go take a class instead of sperging out on 4chan

>>12782380
>The three most advanced vaccines (from Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna) all work by getting our own cells to make copies of the virus spike protein. The Oxford vaccine achieves this by introducing the spike protein gene via a harmless adenovirus vector. The other two vaccines deliver the spike protein gene directly as mRNA wrapped in a nanoparticle
>introducing the spike protein gene
>deliver the spike protein gene directly as mRNA

>>12782385
>it is a gene in the way I'm trying to use the word, which is "sequence of nucleotides" in the abstract.
Words don't change their meaning just because you want them to. Stop insisting that all rectangles are squares.

>>12782386
>mRNA gene fragment
>allows the gene to enter the vaccine recipient’s cells
>The recipient’s cells then use this artificial gene

>>12782395
You still don't seem to understand that mRNA is not a gene. Would you like to go learn about the subject to alleviate your ignorance, or would you like to keep demonstrating that ignorance to us?

>>12782399
Right back at you, stop insisting that no squares are rectangles.

>>12782403
>Imagine being so retarded that you didn't understand the difference between mRNA and a gene
This is getting really sad, anon.

>>12782411
Fill in the blank: "The other two vaccines deliver the spike protein ____ directly as mRNA wrapped in a nanoparticle"

>>12782421
Are you referring to the Merck employee who wrote those phrases?

>>12782412
Lol, you're super retarded. The squares are genes in this analogy and the rectangles are various types of RNA and DNA. Being composed of nucleotides is not what makes a molecule a gene.

Go take a class

>>12782422
Fuck off with your semantics and leading questions. You've demonstrated your ignorance enough already and you clearly aren't learning anything. It's obvious that you know that you're wrong, but you keep insisting otherwise because of your political motivations.

>>12782430
Nope, just you.

>>12782385
It is a gene of the COVID virus, meaning coded instructions for a specific protein, but it isn't transferred, nor does it alter your genetics; it is only expressed via protein synthesis using your ribosomes. Many viruses work this way. When you get the flu, the virion injects its RNA genes into your cell, which gets picked up by ribosomes to make new viral particles. Genes aren't transferred in this case, because your genome doesn't suddenly encode the information into your DNA.

My main argument is that it isn't gene therapy because no genes are being transferred. Delivered? Yes. Expressed? Yes. But vaccines aren't gene therapy because no genes are transferred or even altered.

>>12782464
hint: the whole sentence is itt

>>12782496
what's a good name for the medical field where new genes are delivered and expressed? gene therapeutics?

>>12782516
So are plenty of comprehensive explanations as to why mRNA vaccines are not a form of gene therapy. You've chosen to ignore them because you're trying to push a specific political narrative.

>>12782527
The missing word was 'gene' anon

>>12782538
You're being intellectually dishonest, anon

>>12782526
It doesn't need a field yet,.We don't make a new field every time someone makes a medication that interacts with a novel biological pathway.

But it isn't gene therapy, and the COVID vaccine doesn't change your genes.

>>12782541
I didn't write it

>>12782582
hopefully when they do come up with a name it doesn't sound as scary as 'gene therapy', otherwise it might discourage people from getting it

>>12782612
No, but you did intentionally misinterpret it while ignoring all the explanations you've been given.

>>12782636
Lo and behold, anon finally admits his political aims.

>>12782638
Literally no u

>>12782636
I don't think they should call it anything except what it is. If it's an RNA vaccine, call it that. An RNA drug, call it that. I think they should explain the mechanism of these drugs to the public in simple, honest, and straightforward terms.

>>12782661
>people i disagree with politically are politicizing the science!

>>12782671
Sure, kid. Would you like to give me another semantics based argument while ignoring everything you're told?

>>12782715
You are literally doing that right now by trying to use semantics to label covid vaccines as gene therapy so you can try to scare people away from them. Your political motivations are obvious as fuck and conflict with the facts.

>>12778761
>Unlike math, nothing is truly "proven" in science
so math isn't science?

>>12777857
Yes, viruses constantly upgrade your software.

>>12778017
You are a faggot

>>12778096
So what you are saying is that mRNA vaccine is Gene Therapy,

>>12782859
>so math isn't science?
No, it isn't. Mathematics is not empirical, nor does it utilize the scientific method.

>>12778736
Yes , this anon gets it holy shit. Epigenetics is a very broad spectrum.

>>12782740
Why do you keep bringing "semantic" into it, pops? An argument over whether mRNA vaccines qualify as gene therapy is semantic by definition

>>12782971
Not really for COVID since it's an RNA virus. It's more like if you had a computer with that was hooked up to a 3d printer, and you attached a flash drive with instructions for a model on it.

The flash drive doesn't contain change the 3d modeling software or the hardware or the computer. The flash drive never transfers the file onto the computer. The flash drive just uses the computer and the printer to print out a copy of what it wants. After the flash drive is removed, the computers software and hardware is no longer capable of producing the model that the file on the flash drive coded for.

>>12779377
Yes. Go back to your Chinese Mocha Latte

>>12782802
And other anons are using semantics to disqualify rna vax as gene therapy for equally political reasons

>>12782064
But it effects your cells and how they can produce proteins.

>>12782300
So mRNA effects your Gene's, so it is Gene Therapy. Experimental Gene Therapy mRNA vaccine

>>12783068
Because you're trying to shuffle words around to change definitions. That's semantics. Your entire argument is based in semantics because you don't care about the actual definitions of the subject, you simply want covid vaccines to be considered gene therapy because you think it's a scary word that will dissuade people from getting the vaccine.

>>12783121
Um sweety according to my personal definition of gene it is not gene therapy therefore there is nothing to be concerned about

>>12783097
Wrong. It's not gene therapy because it doesn't fit the definition of gene therapy.

>>12777813
What about gene therapy? Would improve human genome without the need to kill anybody.

>>12783143
but again, isn't an argument about whether or not the meaning of 'gene therapy' applies necessarily a semantic one? Seems like a crutch word

>>12783165
meant genetic modification

>>12783153
Semantic argument

>>12783103
No, it doesn't. Your ribosomes have one job: to take mRNA and make proteins out of it. Nothing is being changed or affected. The mRNA in the vaccine is just an instruction set for the production of spike proteins. It's destroyed in this process and the proteins that are created are then destroyed by your immune system so they can recognize and deal with the coronavirus.

>>12783121
mRNA does not affect your genes. Go learn what those words mean and then come back.

>>12783183
I don't think you know what "semantic" means.

>>12783168
No. Trying to twist words to fit definitions rather than understanding those words and definitions is a semantic argument.

>>12783202
Another semantic argument

>>12783219
Sure, kid. Have you signed up for that cellular biology class yet?

>>12783217
What about twisting definitions in order to *disqualify* a word from being an example, still a semantic argument?

>>12783230
I'm literally in cell bio class right now, pops

>>12783231
Yep, but that's not what's happening here. What's happening here is at least a dozen anons have explained to you how the definition of gene therapy does not fit covid vaccines. Nobody's twisting definitions except for you.

>>12779336
I never implied that every single one can. Anon is the one who proposed that RNA based organisms can have 0 effect on DNA, which is very incorrect. And also, you're implying we know the mechanisms with which those 8% embedded which is extremely misleading.

>>12783243
No, you're not or you'd know the difference between a gene and mRNA. Would you like to claim that you're a different anon so you can shrug off your previous posts demonstrating how ignorant you are of the topic?

>>12783268
Yes, you did. The post you responded to specifically said "every" and your response was that, yes every bacterium and virus does in fact alter your genome. Is this an issue with your reading comprehension?

>>12783263
With dumb semantic arguments like "rna does not express genes' and 'it's not a treatment it's a vaccine'

>>12783273
What do you want, a screenshot? We're learning about ribozones

>>12783287
You mean "mRNA does not express genes" which is correct, and vaccines are not treatments, they are preventative measures. That's like saying that a condom treats pregnancy.

>>12783295
Then you should know the difference between mRNA and a gene. How badly are you failing your class?

>>12783316
I'm not the anon you're talking to

>>12783331
So you do want to shrug off your previous posts. So did you want to present your argument as to why mRNA vaccines are a form of gene therapy?

Protip: they aren't

>>12783285
If you want to argue semantics, sure. If you thought my sentence implied every single one, no thats not what I meant. Are you cured of your misunderstanding?

And also, for 8% to have made it into our DNA, theres probably a large percentage of humans who have had their genome altered but never made it back into the gene pool.

>>12783306
oh thank god. If we were injecting dna-based for a treatment then i would be alarmed since that would be gene therapy, but instead we're injecting rna-based genetic instructions for a vaccination. Sign me up

>>12783347
I'm not any of those anons, this is my first post itt

>>12783351
Go read the post you responded to and attempted to refute. The position wasn't that no bacteria or viruses affect your genes it's that not 100% of bacteria and viruses affect your genes.

Are you cured of your misunderstanding?

>>12783353
It's not gene therapy because it has nothing to do with genes. Which part of this is hard for you? There's no genes in mRNA, and your genes aren't affected by mRNA. This is why I keep telling you that you need to understand what you're talking about.

>>12783363
Sure, anon, I believe you

>>12783414
I have already admitted i was overworried. I thought i would be injecting genes, but i'm just injecting sequences of genetic instructions. I am also relieved to hear that it is a vaccination instead of a treatment

>>12783455
Being disingenuous isn't a replacement for an argument, anon

>>12783479
It literally is

>>12776605
yup. 60 yr old in uk here just binned his invitation for vaccination. So much is wrong with this. Only a fraction of the covid-19 DNA is known so how can a vaccine work not even based on an isolated virus ? What else does it tell your immune system to attack.

>>12783486

>>12777694
I would say so. Like people having a disorder where their immune system attacks platelets. Or rheumatism. there are many auto immune disorders. Sticking mRNA in and training it to attack 'something' sounds dangerous and stupid to me. I;ll keep my immune system un fiddled with thanks.

>>12777709
Thats all very simple. but the protein produced by this is not covid-19. Why? Because they only have about 43% of the covid-19 DNA. The rest is guess work. So you are asking us to train our immune systems to attack something you cannot actually define! To put it mildly.

>>12783522
Tell me literally one time a medically-approved treatment turned out to be harmful. Go on, i'll wait

>>12783405
>The position wasn't that no bacteria or viruses affect your genes it's that not 100% of bacteria and viruses affect your genes.
No its not. The position is that RNA forcing gene expression is not affecting you genes, which is untrue but only by expression amount not normally by direct DNA alteration. And also posits that direct DNA alteration by RNA based organism is impossible, and that he thinks if it was it would be a normal occurrence, except we have proof that it is possible and has happened before.

>>12777783
*the same spike protiens* yeah right. you only have 43% of the DNA of the complete virus (and thats being extremely generous). Also just making the spikes is rubbish. The spikes on a virus particle will be a different shape when on the virus membrane. Basically you are training the immune system to attack somehting perhaps a bit like covid. but u dont want the immune system to attack your own body cells. this vaccine sounds barmy.

>>12783537

Bait

>>12777880
very interesting re patents

>>12778001
dunno what you think a gene is (one leg of blue trousers maybe). you are like the bloke chained to the wall in life of brian

>>12776790

Training the cops to attack anyone who even looks a bit like the suspect *

FTFY

Gonna be a lot of auto immune disorders coming but theyll cover for the vaccine regardless.

>>12783537
Polio vaccine in the USA full of cancer causing SV40 for starters.

>>12783561
precisely. training cops to attack anyone who roughly resembles the suspect. Auto immune disease. here we come.

>>12783570

You're responding to bait. No one is that stupid.

>>12783537
Not him (he clearly doesn't know what he's talking about), but certain medical implants have caused a lot of damage. There's a documentary I watched that covered several examples like a spring that was inserted into fallopian tubes as birth control which would leave metal fragments behind after removal and would migrate, a mesh that was intended to hold organs in place after surgery that tended to get overgrown with scar tissue and become impossible to remove, and a metal hip replacement with a metal based lubricant that would leak into your bloodstream. There might have been some more examples in the documentary, but I can't remember any others or even what the name was.

>>12783537
Mercury causing brain damage removed from EU children's vaccines 2000 USA 2003...

>>12783576

The good news is all of my country's politicians are getting the pfizer vaccine.

>>12783537
That>
>>12783570
Also I'll add vaccine derived polio
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/vaccine-derived-poliovirus-faq.html
Which is the cause for most of the worldwide cases of polio left.

>>12783582

Hormonal birth control causes sexual dysfunction and brain damage in women. 10 second Google search.

>>12783581
I wuz. Been talking to 'tards all day on zoom

>>12783541
>Imagine being this illiterate
Would you like to try reading it again?

>>12777857
>So by your logic every bacterium and virus you come into contact with alters your genetic code?
>every bacterium and virus you come into contact with alters your genetic code?
>every bacterium and virus

To which you responded
>>12778736
>Yes.

Thanks for playing.

>>12783589
Nice. They deserve it.

>>12783593
>Better use springs which cause infertility instead

>>12783592
also the chimpanzee based polio vaccine experiments in the 50's perfomed by the french making the AIDS virus leap from chimpanzees to humans...look it up...

>>12783542
You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>12783602

I hope they get their shit pushed in.

>>12783603

Pull out method
Condoms
Abstinence

Hormonal birth control is trash.

>>12783610
protein folding is a trivia lproblem for your computers then? I level the same insult back.

>>12783609

Deboonked

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/debunked-polio-vaccine-and-hiv-link

>>12783623
it (AIDS) made the leap from cimpanzees to humans in the 50's. The french polio vaccine effort used chimpanzee kidneysraw but mashed to culture polio in which was injected into africans in the congo. facts. I;ll leave them there.

>>12783615
You are the only person mentioning hormonal birth control. I was pointing out an ill conceived contraceptive that caused significantly more harm to those who were convinced to use it compared to hormonal birth control.

>>12783637

Okay moshe.

>>12783623
That website is like a holocaust memorial website to debunk historic revisionism.

>>12783619
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Protein folding is irrelevant in this context.

>>12783599

>>12777822
>Yes they are, you are genetically modifying your patients. Gene therapy doesn’t just pertain to Designer children in petri dishes when you Gene alter a living human it’s not a permanent modification of their entire genetic code, you are introducing mRNA to create the modification.
>genetically modifying
>Gene therapy
>it’s not a permanent modification of their entire genetic code, you are introducing mRNA to create the modification.

Is misconstrued by the post I replied to>

>>12777857
>So by your logic every bacterium and virus you come into contact with alters your genetic code?
>Spoiler: you're retarded

To which I replied yes, because they DO alter genetic expression, just not your base DNA usually. And then I qualified usually because it is possible for RNA based organisms to result in DNA changes.

>>12783643
Are you trolling or just stupid?

>>12783658

Pro hormonal birth control? You're either a kike or a degenerate leftist.

>>12783657
>To which I replied yes, because they DO alter genetic expression, just not your base DNA usually.
Except they don't.

>And then I qualified usually because it is possible for RNA based organisms to result in DNA changes.
Sure, but most of the time they don't.

>>12783661
Again, you are the person who brought up hormonal birth control. I didn't take any stance that supported the use of any type of birth control, I pointed out a medical device that caused harm.

Now tell me, are you trolling or just retarded?

>>12783662
>Except they don't.
Oh so your body just makes extra ribosomes to makeup for the production hijacked by viri? No, those process are interrupted and don't carry out your regular gene expression.

>>12783662
>Sure, but most of the time they don't.
Yea, I'll agree with that. but acting like its impossible is disingenuous.

>>12783688
>Oh so your body just makes extra ribosomes
No, infected cells do. Not every cell in your body is infected every time you get a virus.

>Yea, I'll agree with that. but acting like its impossible is disingenuous.
I never said it was impossible I said it doesn't happen EVERY time you come into contact with a virus or bacterium.

>>12776929
Gene therapy utilizes reverse transcription to integrate genetic material into the hosts genetic material you pedantic ass.

>>12777694
>>12783508
you both don't know what autoimmune disorders are or how they work. MHC presenting a foreign peptide on the surface of one of your body's cells, and the subsequent binding of the MHC/peptide complex by a cytotoxic T cell or helper T cell are both parts of a normal immune response to a foreign invader, especially a virus which needs host cells in order to replicate. In this situation the cell is correctly recognized as a cell that contains foreign particles and gene products, and is targeted for lysis or apoptosis. Apoptosis in particular results in the breakdown of cellular contents such that the foreign gene products can't spread to other cells.

T cells normally undergo what is called positive and negative selection in the thymus, an organ part of the lymphatic system. Positive selection keeps the T cells that can correctly identify foreign antigens on MHC. Negative selection induces apoptosis (i.e. cell death) on T cells that can't make this distinction.

An autoimmune disorder occurs when due to a pathogen or some other extrinsic factor, negative selection of T cells and other immune system cells no longer occurs. The faulty T cells are then free to circulate and attack cells, even those that are not presenting any foreign peptides on MHC.

Example, type 1 diabetes is considered an autoimmune disorder. This is because the faulty T cells destroy the beta-islet cells of the pancreas even when they don't present foreign peptides.

Back to the vaccine, the mRNA and its corresponding protein product can't trigger an autoimmune disease since the spike protein mRNA doesn't have an ability to alter or even incorporate into the human genome, and the spike protein itself is nonfunctional within a cell and ineffectual out of it for reasons
>>12779633
covered.

If neither the mRNA or the protein can modify the genomes/phenotypes of any cell, how do you expect them to alter immune cell function such that they can no longer distinguish foreign peptides?

>>12782350
>https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/covid-vaccines-focus-on-the-spike-protein-but-heres-another-target
>>The three most advanced vaccines (from Oxford/AstraZeneca, Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna) all work by getting our own cells to make copies of the virus spike protein. The Oxford vaccine achieves this by introducing the spike protein gene via a harmless adenovirus vector. The other two vaccines deliver the spike protein gene directly as mRNA wrapped in a nanoparticle.

>>12777807
>The nanoparticle targets immature muscular cells that only have class II MHC.

>>12783720
>No, infected cells do.
So assuming the 2 previous are true, and your post is true immature muscular cells just made extra cell infrastructure and are carrying out their normal function gene expression? Assuming they are carrying out their normal functions in conjuncture, is that not a set alteration semantically?

>>12783720
>I said it doesn't happen EVERY time you come into contact with a virus or bacterium.
Ok, so we agree the majority of bacterium and viri genetic structures do not contain DNA injection protiens. But that it is possible, some do. Will you agree that genetic exchange on that level is not as species coherent as it is in larger organisms?

Now add in a mRNA chunk. Not only a mRNA chunk, but one that quickly degrades in heat. The increase in gene pool depth is Cambrian explosion levels.

I won't be surprised to see 8 different bootleg repaired versions of this mRNA delivery system adopted by 20 various organisms within 10 years with 12 different nefarious genes inserted. Good luck humans.

>>12779377
This. Fucking this. You idiots still replying are complete morons.

That guy posted the same nonsense on /b/ yesterday and even those complete retards didn't take the bait.

I think we should clear something up. The viral genome of an RNA virus has genes, sections of RNA which heriditarily code for various components of the soon-to-be replicated virions.

The gene of the virus that codes for its spike protein is used in the vaccine. That being said, the vaccine mRNA is no longer a gene because it is no longer a hereditary unit. It does not replicate, will have no progeny, and is no longer part of a genome.

It's just a strand of RNA which codes for a protein.

>>12783928
>So assuming the 2 previous are true, and your post is true immature muscular cells just made extra cell infrastructure and are carrying out their normal function gene expression? Assuming they are carrying out their normal functions in conjuncture, is that not a set alteration semantically?
This is word salad.

>But that it is possible, some do. Will you agree that genetic exchange on that level is not as species coherent as it is in larger organisms?
This is also word salad.

>Now add in a mRNA chunk. Not only a mRNA chunk, but one that quickly degrades in heat. The increase in gene pool depth is Cambrian explosion levels.
This is nonsense

>I won't be surprised to see 8 different bootleg repaired versions of this mRNA delivery system adopted by 20 various organisms within 10 years with 12 different nefarious genes inserted. Good luck humans.
This is also nonsense.

>>12784805
Immature muscular cells making the covid spike protein after getting the vaccine, have the same genetic expression as normal immature muscular cells?

DNA>RNA>mRNA>Protein=DNA>RNA>mRNA+vaccine mRNA with higher priority>Protein?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_transfer_agent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer

>>12785021
If the muscle cells kept making the spike protein forever, that would indicate a change in gene expression.

Whether it's a virus with an RNA genome or a mRNA vaccine, your gene expression isn't affected long term because it isn't gene transfer. The mRNA strands of either simpy hijack your cellular machinery for a while in order to synthesizer whatever protein they code for.

>>12785021
There are viruses with DNA genomes which can introduce genetic material into their host's genome via horizontal transfer, but COVID isn't one of them.

Look up mimivirus or, as I said earlier, bacterial plasmids if you want examples of horizontal gene transfer. It all uses DNA in the mechanish, which COVID and the vaccine lack.

>>12785181
>If the muscle cells kept making the spike protein forever, that would indicate a change in gene expression.
If the muscle cells kept making the spike protein forever, that could indicate a change in genome. It's still a change in gene expression even if its only temporary while the mRNA molecule is present. If the person took the vaccine for the rest of their natural life it would keep making the spike protein forever but still wouldn't be a change in genome, but would be a change in gene expression.

>>12785253
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_gene_transfer#Eukaryotes

Organelle to nuclear genome

Analysis of DNA sequences suggests that horizontal gene transfer has occurred within eukaryotes from the chloroplast and mitochondrial genomes to the nuclear genome. As stated in the endosymbiotic theory, chloroplasts and mitochondria probably originated as bacterial endosymbionts of a progenitor to the eukaryotic cell.[83]

Organelle to organelle

Mitochondrial genes moved to parasites of the Rafflesiaceae plant family from their hosts[84][85] and from chloroplasts of a still-unidentified plant to the mitochondria of the bean Phaseolus.[86]

Viruses to plants

Plants are capable of receiving genetic information from viruses by horizontal gene transfer.[50]

Bacteria to fungi

Horizontal transfer occurs from bacteria to some fungi, such as the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae.[87]

Bacteria to plants

Agrobacterium, a pathogenic bacterium that causes cells to proliferate as crown galls and proliferating roots is an example of a bacterium that can transfer genes to plants and this plays an important role in plant evolution.[88]

Bacteria to insects

HhMAN1 is a gene in the genome of the coffee borer beetle (Hypothenemus hampei) that resembles bacterial genes, and is thought to be transferred from bacteria in the beetle's gut.[89][90]

Bacteria to animals

Bdelloid rotifers currently hold the 'record' for HGT in animals with ~8% of their genes from bacterial origins.[91] Tardigrades were thought to break the record with 17.5% HGT, but that finding was an artifact of bacterial contamination.[92]
A study found the genomes of 40 animals (including 10 primates, four Caenorhabditis worms, and 12 Drosophila insects) contained genes which the researchers concluded had been transferred from bacteria and fungi by horizontal gene transfer.[93] The researchers estimated that for some nematodes and Drosophila insects these genes had been acquired relatively recently.[94]

>>12785323
A bacteriophage-mediated mechanism transfers genes between prokaryotes and eukaryotes. Nuclear localization signals in bacteriophage terminal proteins prime DNA replication and become covalently linked to the viral genome. The role of virus and bacteriophages in HGT in bacteria, suggests that TP-containing genomes could be a vehicle of inter-kingdom genetic information transference all throughout evolution.

Endosymbiont to insects and nematodes

The adzuki bean beetle has acquired genetic material from its nonbeneficial endosymbiont Wolbachia. New examples have recently been reported demonstrating that Wolbachia bacteria represent an important potential source of genetic material in arthropods and filarial nematodes.

Plant to plant

Striga hermonthica, a parasitic eudicot, has received a gene from Sorghum bicolor to its nuclear genome. The gene's functionality is unknown.
A gene that allowed ferns to survive in dark forests came from the hornwort, which grows in mats on streambanks or trees. The neochrome gene arrived about 180 million years ago.

Plants to animals

The eastern emerald sea slug Elysia chlorotica has been suggested by fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH) analysis to contain photosynthesis-supporting genes obtained from an algae (Vaucheria litorea) in their diet. LGT in Sacoglossa is now thought to be an artifact and no trace of LGT was found upon sequencing the genome of Elysia chlorotica.

Plant to fungus

Gene transfer between plants and fungi has been posited for a number of cases, including rice (Oryza sativa).

Fungi to insects

Pea aphids (Acyrthosiphon pisum) contain multiple genes from fungi. Plants, fungi, and microorganisms can synthesize carotenoids, but torulene made by pea aphids is the only carotenoid known to be synthesized by an organism in the animal kingdom.

Human to protozoan

The malaria pathogen Plasmodium vivax acquired genetic material from humans that might help facilitate its long stay in the body.

>>12785253
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/science/some-coronaviruses-steal-genes-of-their-host-to-evade-immune-system-response-study/article33791372.ece

>>12784215
I think this is a good summary. To add to this, a gene can induce expression of a gene product and is heritable but a gene product can't induce expression of a gene and is not heritable.

mRNA has situations where it can be a gene or a gene product. In most cells and organisms, mRNA is a gene product, because it is produced from a DNA genome and it is not heritable, because it can't be used to produce RNA or DNA, which would result in its replication. This is because most cells lack reverse transcriptase, which synthesizes DNA from RNA, and RNA-dependent RNA polymerase, which synthesizes RNA from RNA.

Within retroviruses, the presence of reverse transcriptase enzyme makes RNA and mRNA into a gene, because the virus can use it to make a gene product cDNA. Also, within a retrovirus, RNA and mRNA are heritable because the virus possesses RNA-dependent RNA polymerase, allowing RNA replication. Finally, within a retrovirus itself, the gene product cDNA can't be used to produce the gene RNA because retroviruses lack DNA-dependent RNA polymerase. This is why they need host cells that have it, since they also lack ribosomes that work off the modifications by this specific polymerase.

So putting this together, mRNA, within a human cell, is normally a gene product, but if reverse transcriptase and RNA-dependent RNA polymerase are introduced to the cell (by a virus), mRNA/RNA can become a gene (a viral gene) because it now has the means to both produce a gene product and become heritable.

But, in the case of the vaccine, since the vaccine does not directly introduce reverse transcriptase or RNA-dependent RNA polymerase into a human cell, nor does it trigger their production, the particular mRNA sequence introduced is not heritable, can't reproduce into RNA or DNA, and is therefore not a gene.

I mention DNA or RNA only here as means of heritability because to say protein is heritable violates the central dogma of molecular biology.

That sum up everything?

>>12785302
I guess if you want to think of it that way, your gene expression changes every time you do anything. Eating a doughnut causes your body to express genes differently than if you didn't eat because it responds to the stimulus. Exercise alters gene expression, etc.

My only thought is that in the case of a virus or a mRNA vaccine, the genes being expressed aren't yours. So is it altering your gene expression, or is it just "expressing" a foreign gene?

>>12785400
Yes, but it is still not irregular or artificial, as the response to that stimuli is a system itself built from gene expression.

But if you took 2 identical twins, and one lived healthy and one lived sedentary, yes, they would have different gene expressions.

>So is it altering your gene expression, or is it just "expressing" a foreign gene?
If your cell usually makes xyz as a completed function of genomic expression(including cell development), and an mRNA instruction tells it to make t, your gene expression is changed whether it makes txyz or txy.

>>12785365
That article is not very thorough and is poorly written. Nothing in it describes a mechanism by which RNA introduces new genetic material to a host by itself. Nor does it describe a mechanism at all, really.

>>12778002
>>12778005
>>12778013
All women who take the Pfizer vaccine become pregnant with a demon.

>>12785474
Fair point, actually. I still don't think that
foreign mRNA, by itself, can reliably achieve horizontal gene transfer. If there were a mechanism for this we could eradicate hereditary disease.

>>12785399
Based biochemposter

>>12785475
I think I linked that to the wrong post. I was pointing out that coronaviri do have the ability to decode mRNA/RNA and incorporate it into their genome. I don't think like OP that the mRNA covid spike gene can somehow end up in the human gene pool. I'm more worried about covid and other viri using our human intelligence derived mRNA instructions against us to boost their efficiency.

>>12785509
Yes, I agree. Not even reliable, I would say that the steps necessary make it near improbable even assisted. Not even to mention that if a cell in your finger somehow gets the spike protein into its DNA it's not going to affect your reproductive DNA, and probably not even your health.

That's not the same as saying its impossible though. And its disingenuous to say that it isn't gene therapy even if its shortterm just because its easier to say to the dumbs to get them to take it.

>>12785525
Does it actually incorporate genes for host glycoproteins? I was thinking maybe it used micro-RNA or something to alter the glycoprotein so that it could "steal" an incorrectly translated version to incorporate into its capsid.

The article talks about:
"... (the virus) steal(s) a gene (CD200) that belongs to the host. When combined with its receptor, this gene prevents an excessive inflammatory response."

As if the "gene" itself would trigger or hinder an immune response. Poorly worded imo. Do you have a link to the original research paper? I would like to see it.

>>12785558
By your definition, many medications would be gene therapy because they elicits a change in gene expression. Stimulants, NSAIDS, opiates, etc trigger a change in a genetically originated pathway. They alter gene expression, if not the genome itself.

Kind of makes gene therapy useless as a descriptor, no?

>>12785562
Sorry I just found that looking for the horizontal gene transfer term.

What I think it means is the protein from CD200, when married to its receptor prevents an excessive inflammatory response. The virus stole and incorporated it into its genome, and sends the mRNA instructions for the protein to the cell ribosomes along with its virion mRNA, which binds to receptors and stops an inflamation response giving the virus a longer time in the cell to make virions.

>>12785585
Altering gene expression=/=gene therapy
Altering gene expression using the resultant molecule from a gene process, that contains the protein synthesis instruction(mRNA)=short term gene therapy
Altering gene expression via bone marrow transplant=permanent gene therapy

>>12785615
To go back to my original point:
>There are viruses with DNA genomes which can introduce genetic material into their host's genome via horizontal transfer, but COVID isn't one of them.

It's neat to know that gene transfer can occur from a hosts DNA into a viruses RNA genome. The point I was trying to make is that COVID, or any other RNA based virus, cannot alter the genome of the host via gene transfer. Since the vaccine is made of mRNA, it can't either.

I've heard lots of people voicing concerns about the vaccine making you sterile or "changing your DNA", and I don't see any way that it's possible.

>>12785671
>The point I was trying to make is that COVID, or any other RNA based virus, cannot alter the genome of the host via gene transfer. Since the vaccine is made of mRNA, it can't either.
Very true. But "a" coronaviri can incorporate gene information in the host biosphere into its RNA genome. And viri can steal genetic information from each other via more then one mechanism. And there are some viri with mechanisms to insert RNA based, possibly mRNA derived genes into DNA genomes, and also who the fuck knows how horizontal gene transfers between close proximity species. The probability that there are more the 1/7+billion humans infected with one is much higher then 100%. I just think the statement that the mRNA molecule can't end up in the human genome is incorrect at best and wholely incomplete a worst.

>I've heard lots of people voicing concerns about the vaccine making you sterile or "changing your DNA", and I don't see any way that it's possible.
I think from above that its highly likely 50ish total mRNA vaccine patients will have cells somehow altered. 40 will be adults that have the genetic information injected into non-functional gestation genes. 3 may have a similar injection site that causes the ring finger nail on the right hand to turn purple, 2 that cause purple spotting, 5 other ones are other random mutations with maybe one being life threatening or fatal or a lower quality of life if it manages to become the majority of the cell infrastructure in its area. The likely hood of that cell being sperm development cells or a specific ovum egg is astronomically near 0.

The mRNA instruction set containing the spike protein from covid which is also part of the human placental gene expression is another story. The mRNA spike protein which is uses to enter cells being synthesized in absence of a negatively affecting viral infection and so being acclimated is also an entirely different conversation.

>>12785399
So what you're saying is, the vaccine is fucking useless

>>12787032
no, to the contrary, the vaccine in mRNA form can potentially achieve everything a traditional killed/impaired virion vaccine can because it primes the immune system to recognize multiple CoV variants as foreign, while avoiding the drawback and risk of potentially introducing viral replication machinery and full viral genomes into body cells.

the drawbacks for mRNA vaccines over the past decade came down to the instability of the RNA molecule itself, the presence of RNAses outside the cell that degrade it, the issue of getting the mRNA through the plasma membrane, and its apparent ability to trigger receptors that prompt interferon production, which in turn inhibits translation and degrades cellular mRNA and rRNA. In essence, mRNA can potentially work against itself as a means of introducing protein building instructions to a cell by means of triggering unwanted innate immune system responses.

this paper is a great review on the development progress of mRNA vaccines, including what modifications were made to halt unwanted innate immune responses, but keep in mind it was published in 2018, and the current issues are likely far more situational now, such as which cells are the best to target and how such specificity can be achieved.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5906799/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5906799/

Interesting thread