/sci/ - Science & Math

It's not.

>hurr life
the sun.

>>12706997
I might be retarded given that I'm 3 years into my undergrad and still don't understand entropy outside of it being a synonym for disorder

Can you explain the sun point?

Entropy is to temperature as energy is to mass. They're treated on equal footing, and one is merely a proxy to the other. One can construct a four-vector of energy and momenta, and mass is related to both. Likewise, one can construct a four-vector of entropy and positions, and from those find temperature.

>>12706988
a system tends to disorder unless energy is pumped onto it. not that hard to understand bruh.

>>12707005
Some creationists point to the second law of thermodynamics as evidence that something complex like life can't spontaneously appear in a closed system, ignoring the source of energy next to us

>>12707005
Retards point to life and say that entropy doesn't exist because life creates order. Problem is, life is not a closed system. All life is sustained by the sun constantly dumping energy on earth.

>>12707015
How do we quantify order?

>>12707022
>>12707023
Got it, that makes sense.

As I continue my retardation I have asked the following:
>>12707024
assuming Entropy^-1 to be an incorrect answer

>>12706988
Nope. The chaos of the big bang created the order of life today, but life itself creates chaos. It's all a never ending cycle of order creating chaos, and chaos creating order

>>12707068
Dark matter is entropy

>>12707011
What quantifies the entropy?

>>12706988
on a long enough time-scale, it is a meme every so often

>>12706988
sure bud

>>12707005
Entropy is a measure of how distributed the energy is. Maximum entropy means energy is distributed evenly across the entire system. If it's not distributed evenly, then energy tends to flow from higher level to lower level until it *is* distributed evenly (this is what "entropy always increases" / 2nd law of thermodynamics means). Once it is distributed evenly, there is no more reason for energy to move from one place to another, hence it sits still.

Basically life is a mechanism to channel energy from higher level to lower level. You eat food (high energy) and shit it out (low energy). The food comes from plants and animals (which eat plants) while plants get their energy from the sun. Therefore you're basically eating the sun. Without the sun, all energy on earth would eventually distribute itself equally and nothing would have a reason to move anymore, so everything would die. But because the Sun keeps blasting energy at us, we keep getting more of it to distribute (hence keep us alive).

Eventually sun will radiate all its energy and it would get distributed evenly across the cosmos.
If the universe lives long enough, all energy in the universe would find its lowest level and the universe would die a heat death.

>>12707074
A historical perspective might help
https://www.chemeurope.com/en/encyclopedia/History_of_entropy.html
Entropy is just a conjugate variable to temperature.
>mass and energy are conjugate variables
>position and momentum are conjugate variables
>entropy and temperature are conjugate variables
The variational principle shows that conjugate variables are isomorphically equivalent ways to quantify a phenomenon. If one quantity is too difficult to study, go to the conjugate variable. Temperature can be difficult to treat theoretically, so it's easier to do calculations with entropy and then convert back to temperature.
"Disorder" is a stupid way to view it. All entropy does is quantify the temperature of microstates via jiggling, and then spin averaging all these jiggling to give a net entropy and hence temperature. But disorder doesn't really match what it's supposed to be. I recommend the book Entropy Demystified.
https://www.amazon.com/Entropy-Demystified-Second-Reduced-Revised/dp/9812832254

>>12706988
if you had ever been on a beach you would know that

>>12707100
Thats cool I had never thought the life/energy relation

>>12707122
>wind blows and creates a wave
>wave hits the shore and disperses
>energy goes towards heating the ocean
>the ocean has existed for billion years
why isn't the ocean boiling hot and cooking the fish?

>>12707141
Maybe because the ocean is cold to begin with and the heat changes to cold because it's in a cold environment. There's not enough heat to completely change a huge body as the ocean.
I think.

>>12707141
The heat is absorbed by all the aquatic life and plankton and algae.

>>12707141
Same can be applied to the sun shining above it and lava heating it from beneath.
Water just has an insanely high heat capacity. The energy required to heat 1 litre bottle of water by only 1°C is the same energy required to lift 420kg by 1m.
+ a lot of it gets radiated back into space so it's not like heat energy is accumulated over those billion years.

Entropy was a concept developed by physicists justified via the same hand wavy bullshit they use to justify treating derivatives as fractions.
The concept is very clear if you can manage to put it rigorously, it's analogous to the energy density fuction of a system and it can be quantified for any system if you define it to be dealt with in terms of the possible configurations of the elements in region of some space.

>>12707115
>entropy is a conjugate variable to temperature
Proof?

>>12707015
>>12707024
Ice cubes in hot water = low entropy
wait 15 minutes
Lukewarm water = high entropy
I guess?

>>12707421
Yes.

>>12707100
>heat death
Well, why would a high energy state exist in the first place if everything eventually becomes evenly distributed?

>>12707465
>why is there something rather than nothing

>>12707141
cuz thee planet radiates the heat away

>>12707132
Schrodinger was the first to define life based on its consumption of "negentropy" (until he later corrected it more accurately to free energy), he said that life “tends to approach the dangerous state of maximum entropy, which is death. It can only keep aloof from it, i.e. alive, by continually drawing from its environment negative entropy … ". Now life is considered a "dissipative structure" or a more efficient system for dispersing energy (creating entropy) like others have said here. In fact the 2nd law of thermodynamics is now being discussed as a theory for the origin of life- this guy Jeremy England has done some amazing work simulating that random structures spontaneously arrange themselves into dissipative structures, that is, the most efficient entropy creating structures.

Here's his talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10cVVHKCRWw

>>12706988
>entropy
Which kind?

>>12707387
If you're dealing with a well behaved continuous function, I don't see what's wrong with treating derivatives like any other fraction.

>>12707465
Something something caused the Big Bang to happen and a lot of energy was released. That energy is still in the process of being evenly distributed. But really, this >>12707479 is the best answer.

>>12707387
I like the David Morin approach. Define a derivative

[math] z = dy/dx = lim_{/Delta x} /to 0 /Delta y/Delta x [/math]

Hence you can write

[math] lim_{\Delta x \to 0} z \Delta x = lim_{\Delta x \to 0} \Delta y [/math]

Noting that z and y are functions of x. Pass the limit to get z dx = dy.

Sneed, mathfags.

>>12707387
Leibniz notation is unfathomably based, you midwit.

>>12707387
>hand wavy bullshit
>what is differential geometry? Never heard of that.

Think about it guys, what if life's ultimate goal was to evolve enough to be able to cause another big bang so that life can continue? Haha just kidding of course...

>>12707830
The Last Question by Isaac Asimov
https://youtu.be/ojEq-tTjcc0

>>12706988
Entropy measures how surprising (more entropy, more surprising) a distribution is on average, or equivalently how informative it is (more entropy, less informative).

Of all distributions in an interval [a, b], the uniform distribution has maximal entropy.
Of all distributions in R with mean μ and variance σ^2, the normal distribution N(μ, σ^2) has maximal entropy.
That's why you see them all the time. They're occam's razor distributions.

>>12707641
>>12707658
>>12707661
>>12707759

What the fuck are you cunts going on about? The whole point about using derivatives like fractions as an example was to draw similarities in that they're both valid concepts but most physicists won't go out of their way to explain them rigorously.

>>12710377
That's not what you said though. Improve your communication skills.

>>12711664
Theres is a difference between "is justified" and "is"

>>12712724
Thanks, but that doesn't make your initial statement any less false.

>>12713386
Okay fine my bad, I'll work on my communication skills, I was wrong

>>12713494
Thanks! Take this funny image of a pancake bunny as a token of appreciation.

>>12706988
Extropy is the hip new thing all the kids are talking about these days. Entropy is for grandpas waiting to decay in their graves.

>>12707479
>X: God did it
>Y: where did God come from
>X: NOOOOO YOU CANT ASK THATTTTTTT + [other copes that are believed by religious people and not believed by non-religious people; such as "god doesnt need a creator", "god is outside of time -> cope thinking", etc] seethingwojak.jpg

>>12713801
That's why I'm a simulationist

>>12714403
But where did the simulators come from?
>NOOOOO

>>12714521
It's me. I'm the only real player. Ine day I'll pull the plug on this shitty game and play 𒈙𒐫 instead

>>12713801
>[other copes that are believed by religious people and not believed by non-religious people; such as "god doesnt need a creator", "god is outside of time -> cope thinking", etc] seethingwojak.jpg
Literally non of those are copes.

>>12707100
So communists and socialists are actually trying to INCREASE ENTROPY. Holy fuck. I understand it now.
Redistribution of wealth is scientifically a bad idea because it increases entropy.
Thank you, Anon, for precipitating this epiphany.

Why is this board fully of faggot frogposters?

>>12714561
>this shitty game and play 𒈙𒐫 instead
Zoomer.

>>12714521
It's irrelevant :)

>>12707100
Entropy is not a measure of energy distribution, it’s a measure of accessible quantum states.

>>12714600
>Literally non of those are copes.
There's no good reason to favor "god does not need a creator" over "god needs a creator" other than that you want to cope. If I said "the universe doesnt need a creator" I'd have some religitard reeeing at me, yet I could simply repurpose the arguments for "why god doesnt need a creator" as arguments for "why the universe doesnt need a creator".
But that just leads to further mental gymnastics and coping about why it applies to god but not to the universe. When that discussion occurs on 4chan it usually ends up in someone using obscure and obfuscational language to hide their argument, and then chimping out when it becomes apparent their argument is "my feels tell me god exists and has these attributes".

This is not to say a god, or gods, do not exist, or that they do exist. Just that these arguments are neat copes for brainlets who can't sleep or feel sad without a convenient """answer""".

>>12714930
>So communists and socialists are actually trying to INCREASE ENTROPY. Holy fuck. I understand it now.
>Redistribution of wealth is scientifically a bad idea because it increases entropy.
rent free

It is a meme. It is a name for something we do not even know whether it is knowable.

>>12707141
>why isn't the ocean boiling hot and cooking the fish?
what is night? If the earth was in a geosynchronous orbit around the sun in such a way that the pacific ocean was always facing the sun, yeah that shit would probably have boiled off eons ago

>>12707141
cuz it's real big

>>12715173
yeah bud, gen z is already on the next level. We can think in higher abstractions than you could ever hope.

Can you imagine a world where everything is fundamentally different and unrecognizable to your current self? Nope, but we can, and thats why were better than you.

>>12717149
Except we do know that the universe has a beginning so you can not apply eternalness to the universe unlike with a God. So that argument does not actually work and I have no idea why people still try to make it.

>>12717210
Zoomers are some of the least intelligent people I've ever spoken with.
Sorry buddy but your generation is not going to achieve anything.

>>12717210
That's just a reskinned and modded Half-Life with Escherian rooms and a color charge gun. You zoomers can't ever think of something new.

>>12717218
>Except we do know that the universe has a beginning
[citation needed]
big bang =/= the universe had a beginning. Sorry kiddo

>>12717408
Oh yeah, well fuck you asshole you'll die before I do