/sci/ - Science & Math

This also got me thinking, kinda unrelated, that the more you think about a topic, you're putting more stimulus acutely to the neuron circuit related to that thought process. It is known well that neuroplasticity is more active during sleep, so when you wake up the next day you're more likely to find the solution to the problem. I noticed that after I watch porn at night and I'm going to bed, my brain creates visualizations of porn that doesn't exist, they flash before my eyes. Be those actresses if I watched JAV or anime characters if I watched hentai. So perhaps, the intensity of the stimulus is significantly important compared to the duration of the exposure, at least for acute learning processes.

>>12707416
Also, on a behavioral level, it could be that the chronicity of said stimuli are responsible for positive feedback loops in which repetition will reinforce the neuron circuit related to a behavior, and in turn the behavior will happen more often. This may explain the difficulty to treat chronic mental illnesses, ranging from the self-defeating dysthymia to the psychotic episodes of schizophrenia. But these could also shape the personality of normal people, for example, being constantly bitter on the internet could lead you more likely to think ill of people in your daily life, and thus the reason that personality is pretty hard to mold in grown adults. Thus this mechanism relies on counter-reinforcement for regulation, negative feedback circuits, mostly consisting of GABAergic pathways, which are outmatched when someone takes stimulants. This could in turn explain the behavioral changes of people who abuse cocaine and similar drugs.

>>12707389
okay anon, you went off the rails here a bit, but with regards to learning motor skills, i agree that there is an element of going “too fast” for a while that can help with building speed.

i think playing a second instrument, like you with violin and then moving to piano, is a crucial ingredient in why this works. for me it was piano moving to guitar. you need to be able to hear the speedy patterns before you can play them, but then on a new instrument you can try to play them before you actually can, and that may help to get you there on actually playing them

a youtube guitar teacher i like has a video on this: https://youtu.be/RPVpw2seK9E

>>12707466
Incredible. They put it in their own words but it's the same thing. I wish 'neuroscience' would actually deliver in things like these that have the potential to change the way we learn things instead of, whatever the fuck they're doing playing with computers.

>>12707389
That's true, but you'll lose precision, which will cost you speed in the end. There are no shortcuts, Anon. Not without a cost.

>>12707541
You can learn to be precise later.

Within music, rule of thumb is that slow practice is best practice. Sometimes even painfully slow at half-speed or even slower, timed to a metronome, with strong and deliberate movements. Playing fast is often a veil to hide sloppy technique and is worse in the long run. The speed comes later, often naturally.

>>12707541
>>12707546
I do phases for guitar. Periods of random noises, periods of refinement, periods of innovation, cycling

>>12707546
It will take a lot more time than going the other way. Speed is a biproduct of accuracy. Not vice versa.

I'm a bass player and we have a saying every asshole can play fast, its playing slow that really trains you.

>>12707765
What do you call people who hang out with musicians?
>bass player
Correct!

>>12707762
I think both methods can be employed effectively if used in certain ratios. Spend 80% of your training time practicing slowly and accurately to enforce the correct note progression and muscle memory, and 20% of the time going fast (whatever fast means, could just be the normal tempo of a song you’re learning) in order to re-orient your brain to the bigger picture of the section you’re practicing, and how it fits into the entire composition, and how it “should” sound.

80/20 ratios are found all over the place and are always good starting points for training or efficiency measures. Forget what this phenomenon is called tho, probably the 80/20 rule lol

>>12707389
You will never be a samurai

>>12707799
You have no idea what you are talking about go listen to shoegaze

>>12707808
>I think both methods can be employed effectively if used in certain ratios
Yeah, I agree. From my experience it just doesn't work doing the speedy challenge all the time and then going for precision later on, when muscle memory has only learned to twitch real fast.
I guess Pareto rule is a good gauge for the ratio, although I'd do closer to 10% speed training.

>>12707416
stop looking at porn.
you are totally correct, that looking at porn is re-wiring your brain, but the wiring and the connections are ... not ideal, which is the most tactful way I can put it.

>>12707389
You will never be good because practising scales is for soi boi retards.

T. Professional pianist

>>12707894
lol, I bet you spent hours and hours practicing scales as a learner.

>>12707847
I stand corrected. What a beautiful creation.

>>12707389
.gg/xFbgVnvcjp

>>12707389
>Today I picked up Piano for the first time.
>>>/fit/

>>12707389
Relevant question with image of little girl. Why is this sci's new format? is this just what anime does to people?

>>12707894
nice bait, fuckboy

>>12708959
/sci/ - Science and Math

>>12707977
chuckled desu

Pretty interesting. The motor patterns for slow and fast movements are not the same, so its misguided to suggest someone start out slowly and gradually increase the speed. Think of the difference between walking and running. You don't teach someone to run by walking faster and faster, that would just be speed walking. That doesn't mean there aren't reasons to practice slowly, but speed needs to be practiced as well.

>>12709357
Speed is gay anyway, you don't really need to play fast unless you want to choke people with boring ass solos

>>12707541
>>12707562
this is what an expert/experienced player would say

>>12707562
only correct post in this thread

>>12709783
It's not about playing faster but learning faster. It seems to be easier to learn to play slow by playing shittily fast and then slowing down, as opposed to what people usually think, to play slower progressively to gain speed which we have seen is bullshit.

There is a ratio in which you play slow to get enough precision in order to play quick and gain better strength to train the coordination required for playing smooth.

>>12709841
>>12707562
Experts don't study physiology, and they don't care about people's time when they're learners.

>>12709783
Not everyone is looking to shred on a guitar. I'm a pianist, some pieces require a ridiculously high tempo. Slowly upping the speed with a metronome simply doesn't work, the hand movements are not the same at slower and faster tempos. Faster doesn't have to mean sloppy, it should be quite possible to play fast and clean, but it may require shortening repetitions to single bars or even smaller units. Also, getting in a huge amount of repetitions in a short amount of time should result in faster motor learning. Slow play is for memorization and figuring out fingering.

>>12707389

cool

myline favours creation of synapses and electrical transmission but neurons dont get more myelinized - it seems. However activation of activations during a previous phase really imrpoves performance or facilatets subsequent processing of them, its priming sin más

like the idea

>>12707389
>strong stimulus to myelinate the required nerves
Have you tried methamphetamines?

playing blindfolded without letting your hands past the black keys will keep you from getting pidgeonholed into the c scale

>>12707808
Pro concert pianist here: precision always first, speed is secondary. Go at the highest speed that allows for 100% precision. Every mistake you make is a mistake you are training into your memory. If you go fast right away you are training yourself to make those mistakes, but your arm muscles need to become stronger - you get that with higher speeds. Solution is to simply train at the highest speed you can keep full accuracy. Additionally, divide your piece into short segments, if you can go measure by measure unless you kill the melody really awkwardly by doing so (in that case just practice those two or more measures at a time). This helps you memorize the piece much faster than trying to read and play the whole thing.

>>12710520
Bad method. Just practice all scales if you're beggining (aka less than 5 years of exp). Afterwards you can skip the scales and just practice whatever piece you need atm

>>12710447
Terrible advice. You will be training yourself to make mistakes if you play at a speed where your accuracy isn't perfect. Play at the highest speed you can with full precision. After 50 or so repetitions up the tempo on your metronome. Practicing without a metronome is also setting yourself up for sloppy rhythm and lopsided(?) fingering

>>12710417
Wrong. It's harder and more time consuming to unlearn bad habits than to learn good ones from the start. Playing too fast results in learning bad habits, so you'd have to unlearn them and then learn the correct notes... instead of just learning the correct notes the first time.

>>12711345
>You will be training yourself to make mistakes if you play at a speed where your accuracy isn't perfect.
Did you black out in the middle of what I wrote? "Faster doesn't have to mean sloppy, it should be quite possible to play fast and clean, but it may require shortening repetitions to single bars or even smaller units."

>Play at the highest speed you can with full precision.
No, play at the proper speed and shorten the units enough that you can play them perfectly, then link them together.

>You will be training yourself to make mistakes if you play at a speed where your accuracy isn't perfect.
So you recommend playing it slower and learning motor patterns that don't even apply at faster speeds? That's a huge waste of time, you're essentially forcing yourself to learn pieces multiple times, because you're learning different motor patterns every time you increase the tempo.

>>12711329
>Additionally, divide your piece into short segments, if you can go measure by measure unless you kill the melody really awkwardly by doing so (in that case just practice those two or more measures at a time). This helps you memorize the piece much faster than trying to read and play the whole thing.
Additionally, divide your piece into short segments, if you can go measure by measure unless you kill the melody really awkwardly by doing so (in that case just practice those two or more measures at a time). This helps you memorize the piece much faster than trying to read and play the whole thing.
This is a good method. Adding the last note(s) from the previous measure and the first note(s) in the next measure ensures that there's no issues combining the measures later. For measures that need extra practice, they can be looped.

>>12711329
>Additionally, divide your piece into short segments, if you can go measure by measure unless you kill the melody really awkwardly by doing so (in that case just practice those two or more measures at a time). This helps you memorize the piece much faster than trying to read and play the whole thing.
This is a good method. Adding the last note(s) from the previous measure and the first note(s) in the next measure ensures that there's no issues combining the measures later. For measures that need extra practice, they can be looped or split into sub-measures.

>>12711413
>Did you black out
sorry im just really fucking high lol
>No, play at the proper speed
nah
>So you recommend
Yes, because the motor patterns are the same or similar enough that it's nearly identical. Prove otherwise, until then its conjecture

>>12711426
Yeah, i forgot to mention that. the last and first notes is pretty important so you can combine the measures easiyl.nthe looping bit and splitting is good to keep in mind too

>>12710409
Only wrong post in

>>12711353
>It's harder and more time consuming to unlearn bad habits than to learn good ones from the start
this thread.
So much this. It's true for pretty much anything in life.

>>12710420
what does that have to do with most pianists and piano teachers emphasising on precision or agility over the faster pace of the entire play? Have you ever received formal piano education?

>>12711448
>Prove otherwise, until then its conjecture
Specifically for piano? I'm not sure that's been studied, but we do know that slow and fast movements require different muscle fibers, use different amounts of stored kinetic energy, etc. There's no reason to believe playing something at 50 BPM uses the same fibers as playing at 150, nor would the movements be exactly the same, so it's safe to assume the motor pattern would be different. I already used the analogy earlier comparing walking to running. I'm not saying never play slowly, but I am saying it's a significant waste of time to slowly speed up a piece. Practice slowly, and also practice quickly in short enough bursts that accuracy is possible. I've found that to work a lot faster than incrementally speeding up the metronome. Of course certain pieces will be more demanding than others. The 1st Movement of the Moonlight Sonata could be learned at a slow tempo and require little work to speed up to the appropriate tempo. For La Campanella, that would be counterproductive. The jumps and speed require work that will be totally missed at a slow tempo, you need to work at the proper tempo to get the appropriate muscle activation and actually learn it the way it needs to be played.

>>12711738
An analogy is not a proper proof tho. different muscle fiber types doesn't indicate that you are somehow "learning the piece mutliple times" if you go slowly, because the biggest factor for properly learning a piece is learning the accuracy to play at the indicated speed, which is primarily hand position memorization. You aren't memorizing the individual fingerings (I don't mean the actual finger orders that are either best practice or indicated on the sheet), youre learning the overall hand positions and "flow". I think youre conflating the upper limit of a moment in a human mind with playing slowly. If you can play at a quick tempo and keep accuracy, you are better off ignoring the "slow" practice and just do reps in that higher tempo range. Practicing slowly then quickly is less efficient because you could have been training both accuracy and speed at their maximum respective efficiencies, by playing at the fastesr speed possible while retaining full accuracy. That's literally the point where we get pareto efficiency on both training values. Also, when I mean that you should "practice slow" i mean practice as fast as possible where you get full accuracy, even if it means some dozen or so slow reps to ingrain the piece into muscle memory. like I said before, if you are playing with frequent mistakes, you are forcing those mistakes into memory with each rep. Only full accuracy is acceptable, so to avoid needing to unlearn bad habits you're better off using accuracy as your baseline

>>12711738
Also the movements should be exacfly the same at any two speeds, the fsct that diff muscle twitch types are involved does not change the actual movement, its just the body using the right muscle for the job for efficiency. the actual ramge of motion is the same

>>12710447
Sorry pal, Liszt is just the same gay shred as Necrophagist

>>12712198
>t. jelly small hands

>>12707389
It's not just motor skills, it's everything. I decided to teach myself some python to join the AI circlejerk and then after stagnating for a month or so I thought, "this is boring now so why not try something even more extreme" and I jumped right into C++. Then on my second project, without knowing much of what I'm even doing and looking like a delusional retard out of his league experiencing a minor psychosis, I downloaded an opengl library and jumped right into that without any guidance. Then on the third one I forced myself to use the spooky pointers everywhere even if I really dislike the concept and how fucking complicated it is when you try to look it up on your own and now I just pass references by default as you're supposed to do. I still haven't quite understood how to use templates in more complex projects and will soon force myself to employ them in the project I'm working on right now, which is a visualizer of crypto price and all related functions like MAs through a C++ program that I have full control of and which is much more optimal than Binance's bloatware, and will most likely be used as the base for my neural network sandbox that will visualize the loss landscape and all that.

The point in this blog is that what started as a casual toying around with tensorflow by someone with no CS background ended up in a much more complicated C++ project a few months later all because I insisted on slamming myself radically against the wall of resistance that my body had naturally erected, which continuously tried to assure me that no excess calories need to be spent on this and that taking it slow works too. If I had not thrown myself against it in the pursuit of rapid advancement, I'd probably never initiate any of this to begin with.

>>12712277
>that my body had naturally erected
Hehehehehehe

>>12712502

>>12712508
No ragrets

>>12707903
No professional grinds scales wtf. This can only come from people that are less than fifteen years proficient at an instrument

>>12712277
That's completely different. Not what im talking about at all.

>>12712739
You're talking about pushing the boundary further than what was expected for your level and acquiring mastery much faster than usual because you forced your brain to mobilize more calories towards the more complicated task, creating an inertia of mobilization in that direction that lingers even when you go back to the earlier lower intensity challenges.
It's the same thing in my case but mentally. In fact I was thinking about the precise post you wrote a few months ago for my own case and how I should replicate it for everything. You brain really values the calories that it manages, spending them only for the most vital of tasks, and people who didn't evolve this limiting "lazyness" that forces them to opt out for the lowest energy route went extinct as they couldn't afford the caloric cost of their lives. By pushing the boundary and forcing you to stay on the task and participate in a higher intensity, you're in fact creating a demand that more calories will be wasted for nothing in your little sprint if you fail to achieve the quota, so the brain subconsciously mobilizes itself to satisfy it faster and delegates willpower and perhaps "myelinating stimulus" as you said. After all, isn't this what the process of muscle building literally is? You don't get any muscle mass unless you *prove* that you need it by literally damaging your tissue in overexertion.

>>12712780
how many stimulants are you on pal?

>>12712875
yes

>>12712875
>>12712878
but on a serious note I drink a large amount of coffee and take 5-HTP plus L-DOPA before doing something that requires a mental effort, and a gram of l-carnitine 30 minutes before lifting iron. I also tend to eat 100 grams of chocolate with my cup of coffee because it improves mental performance up to 30%, for which I can link multiple studies if you're interested.

>>12712883
>100g of chocolate
What if I'm fasting though? Is it a particular compound in chocolate or what. I do a full 1 week fast (only water, coffee and 0cal mineral supplements) every month for discipline and self control. During the fasting period I can randomly get super productive and energetic or also randomly just feel a little more tired than normal, regardless of coffee consumption that day (or the previous one, even).

>>12712962
The carbs are the point here, I just picked chocolate because it goes well with coffee. 60g of carbs to be precise. Anything within the range of 60g to 80g of carbs, mixed with an average cup of coffee, will improve your mental performance by up to 30%.

As for fasting, yes that's another trick to mobilize energy if you're a male. An instinct will trigger (along with the mechanism of ghrelin) that will force you to go out and hunt some food, so you will enter into a phase of productivity until you find that food. I personally did this pavlovian experiment a while ago where I specifically fasted for the first 3 hours of the day, while I was working on something, and then rewarded myself with the coffee and chocolate combo. After a week I had already created an association where when my body felt hunger after waking up, it also felt an unexplainable desire to study and I actually felt inspired, optimistic and happy that I'm about to study and do mental work during these first hours of fasting because these things make a cup of coffee and a bar of chocolate drop on my desk after a few hours. It stops working the moment you break it and ingest food without doing these activities prior to that or by doing something else like procrastinating with a movie.

>>12712988
Huh. Based self improver. I will try your coffee and carb experiment when I finish this months fast, sounds interesting :)

>>12712996
here you go

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20521321
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15183925
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15549275
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4265209/

>>12712988
based.
Got anymore productivity tips anon?

>>12713023
Degrade and call yourself inferior subhuman who should finally end his delusional peasant life every time you fail to do the task that you were supposed to do.
Do it for a few days and watch as it becomes impossible to not do the task. You will have a massive wall of ego resistance at first but it will go away in a day or two. Every time you open the game or movie, think "holy fuck this is pathetic" until you feel nervousness in your stomach and then just keep playing. You won't have a desire to even open the game anymore after that.

>>12713050
thanks anon.