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/sci/ - Science & Math

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12625921 No.12625921 [Reply] [Original]

Stone tools, sign language that can be taught to children, concept of prostitution, observed practicing primitive religion, are Chimps sapient? Would killing one be like killing a human, morally speaking?

>> No.12626488

>>12625921
I don't know what the word sapience, or to be sapient, means. The more I study neuroscience the more silly the concept sounds.
Do they have qualia? Assuming philosphical zombies don't exist, then yes. That's the only objective answer I can give you. Even the question of whether they can visualise hypothetical futures in a greater ability than the subconscious provides is tricky given our knowledge of human aphantasia. I suspect that language is a technology that makes the users more conscious than they were before, like a generalization of cyborg enhancements.

>> No.12626500

>>12625921
>morally speaking
>sci/ - Science & Math
you fucked up

>> No.12627635

>>12625921
> Primitive Religion

What?

>> No.12627644

>>12625921
Better yet, is OP sapient?

>> No.12628025

>>12625921
The concept that humans are fundamentally different and separate from animals is going to be one of the primary driving factors that leads to our extinction.

>> No.12628072

>>12625921
>observed practicing primitive religion
elaborate

>> No.12628080

>>12628025
Yuval is an okay historian, but he is wrong about ethics.

>> No.12628243

>>12625921
They should be, albeit at a lesser level than humans if you believe sapience is a spectrum delineated by brain complexity. Your other question is for the philosophers to answer. Is it morally justified to treat sapient beings differently? Is it morally justified to use brain complexity to rank their moral importance?

>> No.12628252

>>12625921
>observed practicing primitive religion
Is that special? Even pigeons do that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner#'Superstition_in_the_pigeon'_experiment

>> No.12628254

>>12628243
>Is it morally justified to use brain complexity to rank their moral importance?
We already do that, though. Look at how niggers are treated.

>> No.12628318

reject modernity embrace monkey

>> No.12628390
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12628390

>>12628254

>> No.12628942

>>12628252
That's so cool

>> No.12629797

>>12628318
isn't that like a 9gag or funnyjunk meme

>> No.12632213

>>12628025
We arent fundamentally different. In fact, the fact that we are the same as them is the reason that valuing their existence on the same level as ours is so dumb. A bonobo will not see an ant as worth stepping over.

Sure, torture and abuse and everything is just something we shouldnt do because we know better. But veganfags will never win because it's against nature for an omnivore to start valuing the lives of its prey

>> No.12632705
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12632705

>>12625921
Sapience is poorly defined, but when using the word we generally mean

• Capable of abstract thought and insight
• Capable of referring ideas to reality and reality to ideas
• Able to communicate ideas through symbols

Chimps and gorillas do meet all these criteria.

>> No.12632765

A more elegant definition of sapience would be "recursive sentience."

This means

• I am aware
• I am aware that I am aware
• I am aware that I am aware that I am aware
•I understand my ability to expand this expression is limited by my biology
•I understand only an unlimited intelligence could complete this infinite regression
•I understand the abstract representation of this idea with a term like "recursive sentience" is good enough for gods and mortals.

Can other primates do this? Probably not. But then neither can blacks. We don't call them sapient either.

>> No.12633003

>>12627635
>>12628072
Some chimp got sad when another chimp died

>> No.12633448

>>12625921
I'm sure they're conscious, they're just dumb as shit though. You were conscious at 3 years old right? even though you were dumb as shit, it will be the same thing. We have no reason to think they aren't conscious like us, they just aren't as intelligent.

>> No.12634380
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12634380

>>12633448
>dumb as shit

>> No.12636643

>>12627635
>>12628072
>>12633003
Absolute retardation on their part if true. Anyone who's grown up on a farm knows that even dumb as brick animals like goats can mourn when they're separated from their calves etc

>> No.12636802
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12636802

>>12634380
what the FUCK

>> No.12637622

>>12636802
>>12634380
having extreme reflexes and thinking speed doesn't make you smart

>> No.12637627

>>12634380
Yes, you can teach a fucking crow to count as well. What's your point?
Corvids are smart motherfuckers, but the concept of "sapience" is too fucking dumb. No complex animals are automatons.
Even a fucking dog or a cat has feelings and personality.

>> No.12638779

>>12636643
>He doesn't know about Goatism

>> No.12639624

>>12637627
>No complex animals are automatons.
what a weird cope

>> No.12640095

sapience is a spectrum, not a binary on and off switch. yes they are, not as much as the smartest humans but perhaps moreso than the dumbest ones as they are less domesticated and therefore more in touch with predatorial and primal instincts and the implications thereof.