/sci/ - Science & Math

why is every mech e job some HVAC shit or babysitting a factory

>>12520587
Also asked in the last /scg/ but got no answer before bump limit:

I waste a lot of time watching history and philosophy youtube/bitchute videos, but that's not my field. I'd like to use that time to watch stuff that's more relevant to what I study.
Any recommendations for good natural science (preferably neuroscience) channels which are not dealing with the basics but with current research? Bonus points if they're on bitchute in particular since I want to use a less pozzed platform.

>>12520605
Thank you for re-asking, I await an answer to that as well.
>it does not in and of itself get me ahead
I guess this comes down to being a personal decision based on the intricacies of your situation. I am currently largely in the same mindset of trying to optimize academic performance at all costs, but I noticed it has taken a toll in some respects. In the seldom event of me going to a social event like a party, I notice that I am making myself dramatically less interesting. I have become a largely one dimension person who doesn't have any true interests outside of academics. I am somewhat okay for this at this moment in time, but upon finishing my undergraduate degree I will begin integrating a little bit of flair back into my life.

>>12520587
Is there a lot of job opportunities that combine RF and DSP? I find both fields to be very interesting.

Asked in the last thread but thread died.

How am I supposed to get summer internships? Idk which are good and which to apply for. I'm looking for some kind of quantitative analyst type job; my only real skill is being good at math

>>12520596
PROTIP: The top companies do not recruit on job websites because candidates come to them.

>>12520939
Are you a math student? Are there consulting companies that recruit at your university?
Pic related is advice from a guy working in finance to a physics student who wanted to enter finance.
>In the words of a BCG recruiter "it's easier to teach a physics MSc/DPhil grad business than to teach a business grad intelligence". - Anon

i should have been a cs major lol oopsie

>>12520587

hey anons, is it worth it majoring in CS if you're not going to be just some enterprise python/JS programmer? I'm thinking of getting a PhD and doing stuff with human-computer interaction, but nowadays fucking everyone is majoring in CS

Hey, anyone from Germany/Switzerland? I'm currently doing a masters in EE in Germany and I was wondering what's the better option for my career. Income taxes are lower in Switzerland, but my concern is that the rest of my expenses will be too high and it won't be worth it to move. If anyone has lived/worked in both countries and can give some insight it would be great.

For the record I'll probably graduate with 3,5-4 years of experience in a related part-time job and I want to work in the ML/image processing field. Maybe robotics etc. Experience so far is mainly in c++ and hardware.


>>12522059
It might be. Most people I know who major in CS end up writing java/java script and don't have ambition to go further than webdev or apps. So if you want to do something advanced there's certainly a market for that, although you'd probably have to give up some priveleges like working remotely 100% of the time. You'd probably be better compensated though.

zoomer here, I still have doubts about what course to do. I am between economics, math or science. My goal is to earn enough money to support a family and, at the same time, contribute to the world

Is it even worth majoring in chemical engineering? I'm very interested and it just seems perfect (pretty high pay for being able to live in a more rural area), but it seems that the job market has become so saturated compared with other fields. I guess I'm also interested in electrical engineering, but not as much. what do?

>>12522198
be a man, major in physics, get all the intuition you need for how atoms behave, pick up four books on chemistry (general,organic,bio and something else you like) become better than all your peers in industry due to your godly problem solving skills, profit

>>12522198
>the job market has become so saturated
I see this several times on each /scg/ thread in reference to various unique areas of study. It's fucking nonsense. It's what people tell themselves and others to rationalize their lack of success. Regardless of what you study, there is a ridiculous quantity of students who have come through/ are now in progress of studying in that field. Become very proficient in whatever it is that you do and it doesn't matter how "saturated" the job market is.

>>12522331
thank you anon, I really wanna go through with cheme and most likely will.

Physics grad student here. Kind of tired of physics. Looking to get into software jobs. Apparently a lot of physicists go this route, but I haven't been able to talk to any in my program. Anyone have any experience doing this? Any advice?

about to graduate with my MS in cs and first author on a couple conference papers. I put in apps for PhD at my current school and a bunch of others as well. I can probably get a pretty good job in software though. What would you guys do? I just broke up with my gf and don't really care about the money to be honest

>>12522059
I think HCI is probably one of the easier areas to get into. Basically anything besides AI or ML because departments are sifting through hundreds or even thousands of apps to work in those areas. Of course if you want to make money don't get a PhD. If you want to make 100k+ and develop lower back problems at 28 then become an enterprise. Grad school can unlock industry work that is definitely more interesting.

>>12522381
do the phd, the jobs will always be there

>>12522331
how is it nonsense? while pretty much everything that isn't being a human toilet is saturated at the entry level, the degree of saturation varies wildly between fields and will influence not only how hard it is to break into the field but also long term salary progression

chemical engineering has one of the highest new graduate/entry level position ratios, and it also has some of the least desirable locations, it's important to consider those things

Is a math minor with an accounting degree enough for a job? I know it is enough for grad school.

>>12522695
Enough for what job?

>>12522609
b-but I like the rural locations anon . . .

>>12523027
Programming, Data Science. Computer network architect, jobs that require math.

>>12520587
I've recently been accused of being a womanizer. I literally did nothing except answer questions factually which were addressed to me. Now a large band of organized vigilantes want to harm me and my reputation by calling me a sexist. What to do?

Can someone point me to a reputable course in maths I could take, preferably remotely? I want to start engaging STEM into my career path

>>12523121
Accredited or self-study? There’s infinite self study content including YouTube videos and free textbooks

>>12523076
Accounting is kind of a weird pick for that but I guess we have an account major over here who is an analyst. Not exactly data science but also far from accounting. I think with your minor you can pull it off, math is a meme anyway and I say that as someone with a math degree.

>>12523156
Is a Master of Stats a meme or is Master of CS better. Can it get me into computer science, data science, or statistics jobs and also put me into management positions.

>>12523100
IGNORE, they will move on

>>12523431
MS of stats and cs overlap on machine learning. Stats divulges towards data science and business analytics while CS divulges towards general software development (which has many facets). The two come back together around project management and technology consulting.

>>12522157
I have. Go to CH, pronto. I'd never go back to Germany. Expenses are high, but you'll be able to afford them with a swiss salary, and you'll have ridiculous amounts of cash left over at the end of the month. It's pretty unfathomable how much money big governments drain from their population.

>>12523447
Which will yield a greater return on investment and bring a reward?

CS minor + Accounting for CS Masters or Math minor + Accounting + CS self study for Stats Masters.

>>12523529
hard to say. Which one do you like better? Given the time you'll spend studying it, the "investment" scales a lot with how passionate you are about it. If you study something you really like, the investment is close to zero because large parts of your study will be enjoyable and thus count as entertainment.

I'd say go for the latter if you really like math, former if not.

>>12523516
Yeah, thought so too. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to give more than half my wages to the incompetent cunts in the government. On top of that I want to buy a gun.

>>12520587
Is a bachelor's degree in Information Technology STEM?
>tfw in the final year of my degree but I hate programming or anything related to IT

I found interest in Embedded Systems and digital electronics but unfortunately can't study in those fields because only electronic engineers or electrical engineers are qualified for those jobs. What do?

How important is cumulative GPA for graduate school applications? My first couple of years of university was a mess in which I took classes from various disciplines and failed most of them emphatically. Since then, I have found a program that I enjoy and excel at. My grades incrementally improved in the 1st and 2nd year of the program (70% and 80% average respectively). If my 3rd and 4th year courses in my program consist of high grades (88% average), will my early academic performance be overlooked? I am currently completing research assistant jobs for professors in my faculty, in addition to producing an honours thesis. I desperately hope that such things will demonstrate my competence for future grad school applications.

>>12523151
Accredited would be great

>>12524323
This is a fortunate time in that respect. Most universities are operating entirely remote (at least in Canada), so by applying for admission to any university you will be capable of taking courses entirely remotely. The only caveat is, it is almost certainly too late to apply for any universities for the winter semester. Perhaps try and identify a cheap university that you can apply to for the spring semester? In the meantime you could self study to enhance your performance upon actually taking the course.

>>12520587
Again, what the fuck is this board opinion on industrial engineering

>>12524620
I'm studying it and it's decent but I'm Swedish so it's probably different from where you live.

>>12524620
I work with many industrial engineers and my opinion is that it is a good degree. It gets you prepared for professional life because it is the perfect 'cog' degree. You learn many generalities that don't make you a real 'engineer' in any field but you know Excel and the models usually used to measure production which means you can get a position in any industry as a number watcher.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-advanced-computer-science
What sort of undergrads does this course expect? Should I even try if I was not among the top 3 at my university in the Philippines?

>>12523529
Why accounting? Kind of pigeonholes you into a certain space.
What exactly are you trying to get into?

>>12524165
I'll be upfront with you because I ran into this issue myself. Many many places unfortunately will not give you the time of day if you have less than a cumulative 3.0 GPA. In my case, my boss at an internship had considerable sway with a department that I had great recs from within. The head of admissions straight up blocked me on my low cumulative GPA alone. If you can't get into a department in which you have people within already pulling then an online application is even harder to swing.

My recommendation is you look at your GPA by hours and calculate how many hours you need to take with a 3.5 avg to pull your cumulative up to a 3.0. It will make you realize that those 88%'s aren't cutting it.

>>12524620
Great degree if you're trying to get into management consulting, which is arguably the most lucrative and prestigious of all business paths.

>>12520596
>why is every mech e job some HVAC shit or babysitting a factory
But that is comfy as hell.

What do you guys think of materials science/engineering for an Msc (after a BEng in mech e)? Like link related
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/masters/courses/list/04169/msc-advanced-engineering-materials/

>>12524992
Thank you for the reply, anon. Whilst viewing the admission criteria for various MSc. programs in my country (Canada), I noticed that some schools specify a minimum GPA in "Last 20 courses", or "3000 and 4000 level courses" (See pic related).
In the case of such stated conditions, will my cumulative GPA still hold me back? Contrary to the first 1/2 of my transcript, I am actually quite a good student. I am concerned that programs that specify upper level class GPA (rather than cumulative GPA) won't even make it to that part of my transcript before rejecting my application.

Sirs how do I get a job in the UK. I have a 1st in physics plz help

>>12525044
No problem brotha. The fact of the matter is that they're going to look at your whole transcript. There are many people that think highly of someone who turned their GPA around and there are some that won't. Frankly in my experience if you don't meet the flat criteria listed on the website don't waste your money with the application fee. There are plenty of programs out there that will consider your whole app.

Another thing, in my case I had a very shitty first year and then improved to an average to above average student which isn't enough. In my last couple semesters after being rejected I actually became the model student I needed to be for the story on my application to make sense.
D -> B student isn't what they want to see, there are tons of students that are A/B already. They want to see D -> A or at least D -> B -> A

>>12525077
>D -> B student isn't what they want to see, there are tons of students that are A/B already. They want to see D -> A or at least D -> B -> A
This is an interest point, and it certainly makes sense. In Canada 80-84% is an A-, 85-89% is an A, and >89% is an A+. Accordingly, my transition is from F's and D's to A's. Hopefully if I apply to the institutions which place an emphasis on 'last 2 year' GPA performance then I will emerge successful in the application process.

any anons in here that do CFD professionally? how are the job opportunities in the field? how the fuck do I break in, should I just go get my phd?

>>12520778
Any company working in mobile communications technologies in general and 5G and 6G in particular. Look up Qualcomm.

>>12524703
>philippines
you don't stand a chance

>>12522342
I did this but also did two rounds of postdoc first. Pay in software is good but hours can be brutal. Get out of software before you turn 40.

>>12522198
>>12522331
Chem eng jobbmarked imploded here when the oil price fell and still hasn't recovered.

>>12525411
Brexit means dramatic drop in EU students coming to the UK, so they might have a chance now.

>>12525435
You technically count as Asian and Asians are least likely to be accepted.

>>12525001
bump faggots

>>12520587
>inb4 no jobs where I can use my science or math degree
There are plenty. You just got a degree that doesn't seem to specialize in much, so you get the mindset that you can't get a job related to what you've studied.

First, any engineering job that doesn't require the license, can be obtained with a math or physics degree. You are at a disatvange in job search due to lacking the prestige of an eng degree but there's nothing stoping you from learning the basics, do projects and putting that stuff on your resume.
What makes a good Physics student any worse than a Elec eng students at working on radar? Sure the latter took more specific courses, but you can still learn the material and do a project to show employer you've got potential to learn and some competence.

Of course with a masters in science, everything is easier. But you can still get shit done with an undergrad. And if you're trying to, I recommand meeting recruiters in person and network over relying on software screening your resume that doesn't have the word engineering somewhere close to Bachelors.

>>12525692
anon it's so fucking hard for people with relevant degrees right now to find entry level work, it's going to be damn near impossible for pure science grads

just how it goes, in better times it would not be the case

>>12523949
Dual major.
I would say to drop your IT program, but if you are that close, don't abandon it. A lot of your courses should parallel embedded electronics, so a dual major wouldn't be difficult.
Having both degrees would certainly make you stand out in the huge wave of turn-key grads.

>>12525001
As far as I know, Mat Eng pays extremly well in NA and there are very few of them. Do it.

>>12525868
but he's in the UK, so he should also consider how ITAR controlled those materials jobs in the US are

>>12525874
Or move out of UK. It's going to shit anyways.

>>12524977
Which minor will get me out of the pigeonhole.

>>12524977
I want to go into software or data science. It is accounting because I already choose it because I thought that accounting would make me a CEO later down the line since 1 out of 4 CEOs are accountants.

>>12525868
>>12525874
In terms of demand, where the fuck do I find data for which engineering subfield is the least saturated and most needed?

>>12525882
my advice was assuming he would be moving out of the UK, if you try to get a job in a field where a lot of shit is ITAR controlled or even requires a security clearance as a foreign national your options will be severely limited, and citizenship will take a long time to get

i am not sure how this is for materials, but i assume at least some materials engineering is related to or sponsored by defense contractors

Really enjoy these threads!

Question; I'm a physicist by training and by heart, but ended up doing my PhD in aerospace. All hot topics, including work on machine learning and quantum computing methods.
I'm disappointed with academia in general and don't really want to go the company bootlicker route. What options do I have?

I feel like I'd be good in an advisory position, like helping companies identify bottlenecks where ML or QC or QML could help and give advice on whether investing in these topics makes sense. Then also train their employees or so.

Did anyone go that route and can share any experience? What's it like as a freelance specialized business advisor?

>>12525692
Which masters is better for jobs involving machine learning and ai?

MS in CS, MS in Math, or MS in Stats

>>12526203
I’m considering my phd in aerospace as well

What did you do your dissertation on?

>>12526203
>What's it like as a freelance specialized business advisor?

I haven't gone down that route but given that no one else has answered I can throw my two cents as I have worked with many consultors by now. I can tell you that the independent consultors I've worked with (i.e. not those from McKinsey or other consulting firms) have insane track-records. I'm talking a 10+ year corporate career with 4+ promotions along the way. These people are the closest thing you have to killers in the business world.

Business people, as you can expect, are very business oriented. And they tend to only spend the big bucks on consultors who can speak their language and have a proven record of getting things done. If you just have a PhD with a short academic career and no corporate achievements to speak of, you will probably not make it as a freelance consultor. If I was you I would start recruiting for consulting firms, where you mostly use the pull of the brand-name to get the contracts. If you have success there then you can turn that into a freelance career.

I think you are halfway there because the PhD already says a lot. But you can't speak the language of business people and a PhD alone won't impress them. So get the missing piece.

>>12526533
machine learning and AI spring from computer science, so CS should be optimal, but math and stats are also acceptable.

>>12526203
>I only have two options, option A and option B.
>however, I do not like either options. What do I do?

>>12525411
Sorry for the late reply. I know that even my country's best universities are not really known worldwide, but is it really a reason to reject me?
>>12525435
I hope

I'm almost at the last year of my EE degree and we have to choose one specialty. The choices we have are:
Automation
Biotech
Electric energy
Microelectronics
Microwaves
Embedded systems
Telecommunications

Which one would offer better opportunities career wise?

>>12526733
Not done yet, but it's methodological work on difficult problems (gigantic FEA systems, saddle point problems, multiscale and multiphase problems, plasticity, a bit of control theory, etc...) and how to apply next-gen methods to solve them.
Are you thinking of a specific field? There are various options and I think everyone can find something interesting.

>>12526797
That's great insight, thanks! Makes sense, trusting me would be like hiring a boy directly from school. I already started cooperations with quite a few big companies and consult them regarding machine learning and soon one company in quantum computing, but I guess that doesn't really count as it's more academic and less regarding business decisions.
I do have a contact at Bain and Company, so I guess I'll start there. A friend worked at McKinsey for a few years but I dislike their business model. Seems like money laundering imho.

>>12527708
Yeah, that's pretty much what I said.

>>12526203
>>12527708

Christ you guys
Start
Your
Own
Business
Drop a few grand and start doing what you want to do
If you have any ability to save money at all by the time you have a PhD you should have enough to start a business
I keep seeing posts on here where it’s clear people haven’t even considered it for a moment

>>12528345
I already founded a startup years ago when I was a student and am starting a small side hustle now, but it's difficult in my country to try out novel things and it's risky regarding complicated laws. The mentality needed for such an endeavor is also scarce here. We were looking for coders, but they all directly wanted a huge salary plus guarantees, insurance etc.

>>12528372
What you need are people desperate for literally any job who also can code

I am a 3rd year EE studying at UCLA. I am in the HKN honors society with a GPA of 3.9. My end goal is to specialize in machine and deep learning and to enter the private industry. I am using all my electives to take the undergrad ML and DL courses offered here, as well as some other CS courses. I want to work for a top software engineering company like one of the big social media companies or maybe Apple. Should I go to a graduate school like cmu, ucb, mit, or Stanford and get my masters/PhD then go to industry or Should I try landing like a E4/ICT3 job right out of undergrad?

>>12528577
Don't know about USA, but to get chartered engineer status here (basically recognition by an engineering society) you need 4 years of good industry experience and at a bare minimum a masters. That's when you'd make the real money and get better jobs.

>>12520596
because mechanical and industrial are the same bunch. They aren't expected to have the technical skill that qualifies them to perform any dextrous abstract work requiring computers that you would expect someone in EE to do easily, you have to be the top of your grads(masters/phd) to even be allowed to do any research on physical components. Worst comes to worse, you can AT MOST be part of some support/safety concern engineer team at bachelors level, or do some control systems work. It's shitty, but that's what you're getting in ME.

>>12520605
Stop watching stupid fucking videos unless they're tutorials. You get more out of reading. There is no EASY way out. The time people spend making these videos, they could easily publish 2-3 journals where you can learn more. Also, videos are meant for the ADHD spacially inept. Most or almost all videos and tutorials will refer you to documentation or other citations to read more about it. Videos will give you a better visual idea with some sparks and smoke, but it will not give you the whole story.

>>12520605
>less pozzed
>videos
your best bet is to go read recently published research papers which are updated and as redpilled as work can expected to be. In fact, you can cite your references to your friends as opposed to a video which is not a legitimate source of information

I'm a math student in EU. What's the best career option for me? I always kind of assumed I'd go into some programming gig because I'm very good at that and already have experience. But is that true? Note if I'd get just a slightly higher salary in some totally new field like finance I'd still probably prefer to go into tech.

>>12528738
I'm not from the EU but I was in a very similar situation to you as I got my mathematics degree but my professional orientation was tech and programming. My first job was as a programmer and... it fucking sucks. Programming at the enterprise level is not the same as programming your little side projects. The work is dull and repetitive, the tasks often feel pointless and much of the time you don't have a real understanding of why you have to do something.

Of course, if you absolutely love programming for programming's sake then the experience will be different from you. But my advice would be to code hello world 5 times and tell me if by the 5th time you still felt a kick. Because by the time you are proficient in your company's environment, everything will feel like hello world. Needless to say I left after 2 years.

>What's the best career option for me?
The best career is, as usual, high-finance. We are talking specifically quantitative analyst at a hedge fund. It's not easy to break in but if you train yourself properly you can still get into finance which is as comfy a career as you could ever find.

>>12528754
Hm alright. But... what the fuck do those people actually do? I have zero knowledge of finance

>>12528690
That's false. Why would you lie on the internet?

>>12522342
physics phd here. What's your subfield, Anon? also what tier school do you go to? if your school is at least a top thirty and your dissertation is theoretical you can go to the NSA for a career. They hire 20 phds per year for mathematician positions and they like to take people from physics as well.

The hardest part of the interview process is the security clearance part. But there is a math test you need to pass as well.

There are also plenty of other government labs/ contractors you can apply to (Ida, lockheed etc) If you're a US citizen, these are the easiest programming jobs for you to get because they require a clearance, this cuts down the applicant pool significantly.

if you really need to go to private industry, there are lots of Texas isn't really saturated yet. lots of oil companies who need people to write imaging software for them. you could also try to get one of these data sci jobs, but it's getting harder every year to do that.

>>12528759
In finance you make money by any means necessary. In general you'll be working with some asset class like debt or equities, in some specialist roles even with just some specific sector's debt and equities, and you have to make money from it. At the lower level roles this would be just mantaining an already-profitable operation and ensuring outside events don't disrupt that cash flow. At the higher levels it means creating your own new operations that make money for your firm. But you'll usually be in the middle where you complement some already-existing operation with maybe new ideas but not necessarily an entirely new thing.

To give an example, for me this year was fun because Corona came and fucked everything up. Usually this would mean heavy losses on everything but due to government regulations we could not write-off certain products. This means that our consumer debt portfolio was getting filled with increasingly riskier components that didn't show their true risk. And we are talking billions of dollars here, so I was thrown into a project to perform an assessment of the true value and risk of these assets given the current market distortion. Needless to say, these have been months of extreme market research and heavy number crunching.

But that's my side of the isle which does not directly involve transacting in the market. Just performing analysis for strategic decisions. If you look at places like Jane Street that heavily recruit for mathematicians, statisticians, etc. and they are market makers. This means that when you are buying certain assets, you may be buying from them. And when you control the liquidity there are many plays you can make money. As simple as charging a spread to performing arbitrage trades across multiple markets to squeeze out extra profit from your clients in a way that they don't think/know they are kinda being cheated out of a potentially better price (but such a better price would not even exist if it wasn't for you).

>>12528690
tell me how I know you're retarded
or went to a garbage uni, could be either

>>12528899
how the hell do you even get one of these jobs

>>12524994
I was at McK for a bit and most ppl didn't have stem degrees

>>12528754
my impression was that quant finance was only for the top students at top schools, or is this only the case for the best hedge funds? also what do you have to train yourself in? from what i hear they dont care if you know finance only that you’re high iq

>>12525962
BUMP my niggers

>>12528754
>specifically quantitative analyst at a hedge fund
I was a quant analyst at a very well known GM fund for a while. Pretty decent and fun work, but you sell it way too hard. Like any job the gains you make your employer pale in comparison to the salary, at least until you become PM and get some risk exposure.
I've realised that the true answer really is taking the startup-pill, unless you are horribly autistic and prefer being told what to do forever.
>>12528959
>only for the top students at top schools
this is generally true, but not always. There are always the odd people that come from tier 3 unis (I know someone at Millennium who did that).
>>12528959
>also what do you have to train yourself in?
AFAIK nearly all big shops (outside of a few like Jane) use Python for the quant infrastructure. So get amazing at Python / Stats first. Learning fullstack also doesn't hurt if you are in more of a generalist role (I was mix of tool dev and systematic strat dev during my time).

I'm doing my BEng in mechanical engineering at a no name University with a very small engineering derpertment, but some okay research output.
Will I make it if I do an Msc at a top 10 school? How much of a culture shock will I be in? I will likely finish with over 85% for my final year and get a solid 1st class degree (equivalent to 4.0 GPA degree). I can basically get into any other university now, but I am scared of going to be a big name place

>>12529002
Department**
Phone posting

>>12529002
>I am scared of going to be a big name place
ngmi.

>>12529002
>I am scared

>>12529002
Don't be, most master's are set up to deal with some variability in student ability. Just think of all the brain-dead little Chinese princes they admit, they need to be accommodated some how.

As long as you have your head screwed on, work hard and engage with the material you'll make a distinction.

>>12528935
Start recruiting. The people who get top jobs out of uni have usually been groomed for that position their entire lives. They started doing internships since their sophomore year and usually have some awards like IMO medals. But if you aren't this then you may have to lower your expectations and recruit for simpler roles.

If you want to explore a bit, JP Morgan always has a huge list of open jobs and their search functionality is top notch so you can easily find everything that is out there in the market and filter specifically for what interests you.

>>12528959
It is and isn't. If you are not the best of the best yet you can build yourself and eventually your experience will beat out any 'natural' talent. And it is true that most places have an attitude that if you are a mathematician they can teach you finance so you should focus on actually being smart first. But if you can apply that on your own to finance and, for example, create a traidng system that is an improvement. Specially if you can trade it on your own in a small scale and build a short track-record (3 months to 1 year) of profitability. Then you'll be a top candidate.

>>12528972
>but you sell it way too hard. Like any job the gains you make your employer pale in comparison to the salary

This is true for any job. And if you are getting paid well then why should you care? Eventually you can get a share in the fund and enjoy the true benefits but if you are getting paid 200k+ a year you are already living pretty well.

>>12529028
>if you are getting paid 200k+ a year you are already living pretty well.
>Paid more than 99.99999% of people on the planet
>"pretty well".
Why do internet people do this?

>>12529034
You'd have a stroke if you went into wallstreetoasis. You have kids there contemplating suicide if they make less than 100k. Stick to /sci/ for now.

>>12529028
I think it might be too late for me to break in here I have already wasted too much time I feel, maybe if I can get doing a PhD I'll try after when I inevitably get chewed up and spat out of the academic engine. Maybe when I'm 35 and on my second underpaid postdoc lol.

>>12528899
How do I get started with finance? I only understood 10% of what you said.
t. CS grad

>>12529028
>so you should focus on actually being smart first
How do I increase raw intelligence?

>>12529089
Please don't shitpost this thread

>>12529099
I know it is sort of a stupid question but I had to ask it to know if I stand a chance to get a quant job

>>12528788
>>12528930
so much butthurt

>>12529071
Well, I think the most important is to learn some (basic) probability theory. Regardless of which area you choose to focus on, probabilistic thinking underpinds all of finance. You have to learn how to not concern yourself with which individual events happen, but which events in general occur more often than others. Then the true "work" comes from knowing which levers to pull to force the probabilities to be in your favor, but these are now specifics and you will be restrained by internal and external regulations which means these you'll mostly learn on the job.

After you have a solid understanding of that I think you should pick where you want to specialize. I say this because I could recommend you to read a mathematical finance textbook so that you really become an expert, but it turns out that most of those textbooks (with no additional qualifier) focus specifically on the valuation of financial products. This is something that almost no one does for a job so it can be a waste to spend reading these 900-page textbooks for something that specific. (Though, the math involved is amazing and you should consider it eventually).

So pick a field, some examples are
>Consumer credit
>Corporate credit
>Investment Banking
>Venture Capital
>Private Equity
>Global Macro

And each has their own ways to mathematical model their portfolios. But they all involve probabilistic methods and thinking. And I seriously mean research these fields and pick one. Some people say "I work in risk" but that statement is meaningless. A Risk Analyst in a consumer bank does something almost completely opposite to what a Risk Analyst does in a Global Macro Fund. It's not even comparable despite having the same job title.

After you have found something that interests you, look for mathematical finance (or just finance, depending) textbooks in that specific area. And learn all you can. Learn all you can about risk. Learn all you can about statistics. And then start recruiting.

>>12529099
You absolutely cannot increase raw intelligence.

>>12529028
>And if you are getting paid well then why should you care?
Why do you think I worked my ass off to get into one of these funds? Hyper ambition is needed to get in, yet I should suddenly be /comfy/ working 14 hr days + weekends when a new strat goes live for a couple 100k? Then when making PM, unless I found my own fund, I'll probably top out ~1-2mm yearly. The "Buyside guys pull in 10mm+ every year easily" is a myth sold to sellside people to get them begging for HF roles.

This is the disconnect I see. Unless you totally lack leadership skills and only want to be commanded then sure, quant finance is great. But if you even have a touch of what the faggots in IBD have, then start your own damn business. Its soooooooo much easier to make PM level money if you take on risk from an early age with your own business idea.

>>12529156
I agree with you in a certain level and you clearly have a more personal experience with that field so I'd rather learn from you than debate you. But what you mention about starting your own business would not even be possible without the savings and connections that a hedge fund career will get you. You will never be making PM money in your own fund without building up a 8-9 figure portfolio and where do you think that money will be coming from?

>>12529128
How do I become one of those hotshot investment bankers like in Industry (BBC One drama)

>>12529169
I do not have the personal experience with that field but I know that for IB in particular it is very important that you went to a target school. (IB is one of the few high-finance jobs that don't need any STEM knowledge so without the STEM filter, almost everyone can and wants to get in).

>>12529117
Butthurt for what? What you're saying is obviously not true. Mechanical engineering is the most widely spread field. There are a lot more opportunities and varied opportunies with mechanical than there is with electrical. Though electrical is a close second.

>>12529128
Thanks anon. I have already started learning probability theory and statistics for other reasons and now I have more. I will take your advice to heart. Any advice to cracking their interviews?

>>12529035
Those kids will never be content with life and lack perspective. That state of mind and existence is nothing to envy, you're essentially a slave to money and social status.

>>12529166
>would not even be possible without the savings and connections that a hedge fund career will get you
This isn't true, trust me man. You will be absolutely astounded how much money there is to make out there if you put your mind to it. Read Tim Ferriss 4-hr workweek if you have any leadership drive. Genuinely a life changing book.
>>12529166
>You will never be making PM money in your own fund
I meant making PM in 10-20yrs, then spinning out. You wouldn't trade only your own money obvs, a bunch would be seed from last fund if you left on good terms. But staying PM at even the top funds doesn't pay as well as many people pretend.
>>12529179
Based. EEE niggers always seethe when confronted with MechE lads.

>>12529183
>Any advice to cracking their interviews?
look at "overheard on wallstreet" I think its name is

>>12529173
I didn't go to a target school (. Trying to get into one for my master's.
>>12529186
>4 hr work week
Wut?

>all these faggots obsessed with money.
Just give me a small office, 60k a year, and a comfy research/teaching post and leave me the hell alone, you vultures and degenerates.

>>12529196
>cant even google a book name
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/368593.The_4_Hour_Workweek
ngmi

>>12529197
That office is getting smaller every year. Those 60k are being destroyed as universities catch-on to the game of hiring people as adjuncts for 2-year contracts and therefore never putting their people in the tenure track so they can avoid giving out promotions. That research post is getting more and more bureaucratic as bloated administrations pay 10 guys to check how many papers you have published instead of the quality of your research and teaching.

Academia is dead. Work in finance. Become financially independent. Research for your own pleasure. Use your knowledge to solve the real problems in the real world. There is no bigger and more interesting mathematical problem than the optimization of funds allocation.

>>12529201
It has shit reviews
>>12529195
Is that an Instagram/Twitter account?

>>12529128
If I already know real analysis, can I just proceed directly through measure-based probability? I have no knowledge of probability.

>>12529206
>There is no bigger and more interesting mathematical problem than the optimization of funds allocation.
Makes me want to vomit reading this.

>>12529206
>There is no bigger and more interesting mathematical problem than the optimization of funds allocation.
If you think quadratic optim under uncertainty is the biggest and most interesting mathematical problem, you should probably rope right now.
>>12529215
>It has shit reviews
enjoy wage slaving for eternity
>>12529215
>Is that an Instagram/Twitter account?
its a book by something Crack. The title isn't exact

>>12529183
>Any advice to cracking their interviews?
There are entire websites devoted to documenting the interview questions of top banks and funds. Research this a bit. But also, know that you'll only get these questions after you penetrate through HR. So to beat HR, learn what your 'story' is.

How do you connect your early life to your education and then to your current aspiration to get [X] job? The deeper you can go with this, the better. For some reason HR loves this shit. I honestly don't get it.

>>12529222
Well since you insist so much I'll read it properly

>>12529221
>Makes me want to vomit reading this.
thank you
finbros become more and more insufferable the more you point out that the golden pre-2008 years are long over, and the industry has been in terminal decline for over a decade. I have many such friends like this. Sad really.
>>12529229
>insist so much
do what you want faggot, I'm just giving my $0.02

>>12529222
Found the book https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/397002.Heard_on_The_Street
>>12529228
Thanks anon. Lots of work to be done!

>>12529220
Yes you can. But measure-theoretic probability is already, I'd say, too advanced for what you would actually do in most jobs.

You can proceed but, as I said, I'd first focus on getting deeply acquainted with the field and then maybe choose to become a true expert in the deeper magic that goes on behind the curtain in high finance.

>>12529221
But it's true. If I gave you 10 million dollars right now you'd be no different than those retards who win the lottery and in 5 years they are broke and working at their own job. If I made you the CEO of Netflix, that company's stock price would be at 0 by Monday.

You know nothing. Your knowledge of mathematics is too basic.

>>12529222
>If you think quadratic optim under uncertainty is the biggest and most interesting mathematical problem, you should probably rope right now.

If you think you have solved funds optimization then go start your own hedge fund and become a trillionaire. You solved it, right? It's just quadratic optimization right bro?

>>12529241
>If I gave you 10 million dollars right now you'd be no different than those retards who win the lottery and in 5 years they are broke and working at their own job
Uhh, no, anon, I'd just invest 5 million in an index fund (s&p 500) and the other 5 million into mixed mutual fund with vanguard or fidelity, and then never think about it again. Index funds have basically outperformed every investor and mathematics genius if you go back far enough.

>>12529244
>solved funds optimization
I don't know if you are larping as someone who knows about finance, or are genuinely retarded.
Funds optim is all dependent on the quality of the alpha signal. I gues finding alpha is an "unsolved mathematical problem" in its loosest sense because you are forecasting a very large dynamical system.
If you give me no alpha signal, I can still beat the SnP easily with simple levered risk parity. Again, using quadratic optim.
>>12529254
based asf.
Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_parity if you are interested. Anyone with decent python knowledge can outperform those index trackers fairly easily with an Alpaca account.

>>12529186
Funny, there's a saying in my department that goes like: "If I fail out of EE, I can always enroll into ME"

>>12529268
must've gone to a shit uni
ngmi

>>12529254
>I'd just invest 5 million in an index fund (s&p 500) and the other 5 million into mixed mutual fund with vanguard or fidelity

And then what? Will you live just off the dividends? Will you resist the temptation of using more? When the next crash comes will you not panic sell?

You are but a little baby who has never held the pressure of having 10M. Larp all you want as the perfect investor.

>>12529263
>I can still beat the SnP easily with simple levered risk parity
Then why are you wasting time posting on a mongolian basket weaving forum when you could be out there beating the S&P and fundraising in the hundreds of millions! We have the next Warren Buffet right here! And all he needed to beat all of us was widely known and basic mathematical methods.

I guess everyone except you is retarded.

>>12529280
already got my 300k starting

>>12529280
kek risk parity funds already exist. Now I know you're a larping student. Just chill out mate, not everyone needs to have as big a hard on for your precious finance as you, its not pre-2008 anymore.

>>12529300
I'm saying why aren't you doing it. I know the validity of the methods you mention but they hardly are a solution to the funds optimization problem. The proof is trivial, given that you are not a trillionaire.

By the way, when I said "funds optimization problem" I was talking more generally about the problem of if you have X$, what's the way to invest optimally to get the maximum profit out of it. This problem is not restricted to hedge funds but to any corporation. All companies from Clorox to Apple have a fixed budget every year and every year, every month, every day, they attempt to invest that budget optimally.

The fact that companies still fail from now and then means that the problem is not solved. The fact that most hedge funds fail means that the problem is not solved. You get the idea.

Just saying "lol just use quadratic optimization bro" is extremely ignorant. If it was that simple, everyone would be doing it. Some people are doing with great success, but given the statistics surrounding hedge funds (I think it was 70% of funds shut down after two years) I'm sure I could find plenty of similar funds who went belly up.

It's not a solved problem. And it is a fun problem. It is the best problem you can attempt to tackle if you are mathematically oriented. And, what's better, you won't get shat on by university administration while doing so. I got my bonus this year, did you?

All the smartest people should be working to advance science, not make money for Wall Street moguls

>>12528372
Search for students. I'm working at a startup because they gave me the job despite not having any proof I can code and I get to learn a lot of things while I'm working too. You'll always find a few people looking to get their foot inside the door, although they won't be the finished article producing high quality code right off the bat. But that's the trade off.

>>12528342
>Are you thinking of a specific field? There are various options and I think everyone can find something interesting.
computational fluids

>I do have a contact at Bain and Company
it would be extremely painful

>>12529318
dude you're clearly not in an alpha generating role, even if you do work in finance. If you read and understood my post about alpha you wouldn't be posting that stupid shit. If you gave me perfect forecasts, then yes, I would be a trillionaire. But I don't have those forecasts do I. So your "funds optim problem" really just boils down to getting better forecasts, and quantifying and managing the uncertainty of those forecasts.

Now what constitutes this forecasting? Well that depends on the product, the timeframe, etc. You defining this as an "unsolved mathematical problem" is retarded or disingenuous, because all of these are different dynamical systems. If I could forecast weather perfectly, I could become a trillionaire trading weather options and various agri futures. But that is an entirely different problem when compared to forecasting, say, some shitcoin's price action.

Saying "lol just use quadratic optimization bro" is not ignorance, its right on the money. What IS ignorant is thinking forecasting is easy.

>>12528577
go to graduate school imo, easiest to do it now when you're in the academic rhythm

people who breeze through undergrad generally do well in grad school anyway

>>12529268
>"If I fail out of EE, I can always enroll into ME"
That's dumb.
I have no interest in electronics or what EEs do.
I am interested in nanofluid mechanics, though, and that's for MEs.

>>12529280
>And then what? Will you live just off the dividends? Will you resist the temptation of using more? When the next crash comes will you not panic sell?
>You are but a little baby who has never held the pressure of having 10M. Larp all you want as the perfect investor.
I'd work my day job, use some of the dividends, maybe take out some money for property to rent out, but mostly yes, I'd buy and hold without doing anything. 100 years of investing data shows that is the best approach on average and I'm okay with that.

>>12529366
>dude you're clearly not in an alpha generating role, even if you do work in finance
I spoke on great detail about what I do above. I'm not in a hedge fund and I'm currently not particularly interested in those positions.

>really just boils down to getting better forecasts, and quantifying and managing the uncertainty of those forecasts.

Exactly, and you can always do this better and better.

>You defining this as an "unsolved mathematical problem" is retarded or disingenuous, because all of these are different dynamical systems.

Then consider a very specific system. Let's make it as simple as when exactly should I buy or short the S&P to maximize the profit? Even that tiny problem is unsolved.

>You defining this as an "unsolved mathematical problem" is retarded or disingenuous

You are simply not a mathematician. I say the problem is 'unsolved' in the sense that you can always do better, and no one is doing it perfectly. Even if you made a system that buys/shorts the S&P and in a year beats it's return by 1%-2% someone else could come up and make a system that beats it by 3%. What's more, next year the first guy's system could fuck up entirely and burn all the past year's profit with it.

If this is not enticing to you then yeah, I guess go work as a fucking adjunct.

>>12529383
>I'd buy and hold without doing anything
Ok cool, and I'd probably do the same, but you must agree that this is not the optimal allocation. It may be the 'safest' in the sense that if you do this you will never be poor. But give those 10M to Jim Simmons and he'll give you back 100M. That's the point.

>>12520778
DSP is just good stuff almost anywhere you go as an EE.

RF is based. I studied RF. I'm lucky to have a job working on radar now. RF is more niche. Telcos are hard to get into fresh out of uni unless you know somebody, they usually want 5 yrs experience or more.

You should work on your coding as much as possible. This is what the old RF/DSP boomers will really value you for. Write lots of code for them and you will eventually start to get to work on the RF side of things. Just my 2 cents

>>12522191
Anon you need to understand that there are 10x more people with those degrees than there are jobs. Why don't you become a carpenter and build homes for people? Thats what the world really needs. Every kid is brainwashed to pay 50 grand studying cellular biology and then are shocked when they realize the job at the end of the rainbow was a lie. Because the knowledge is practically worthless in the job market.

If youre really hellbent on university do computer science or electrical engineering.

>>12529388
>I say the problem is 'unsolved' in the sense that you can always do better, and no one is doing it perfectly
by your very definition then, anything which can be done better is an "unsolved mathematical problem". Again, disingenuous or retarded.
>>12529388
>maximize the profit
I've spent this time arguing with a chink or a poo ffs
what a waste of time
whatever man, keep your hard on about finance. Only one of us has been on the inside in some of these places and I promise you you're misguided.

>>12522191
do a practical degree with job prospects at the end

i don't know what degree that will be by the time you're done with school, sorry man can't predict this shit 4 years in advance, right now CS seems to be the best option

>>12529328
Working in university or government labs doesn't pay as much dum-dum

>>12529442
Life isn't all about money.

>>12520587
Are there a lot of jobs available for a bioengineering bachelor's or is the field over-saturated?
What's the best way to break into the field? Which other degrees can get in?

>>12529221
Yes I agree so much, these people have been dragging us to perdition for too long.

it's time something was done...

Can you, as an EE, pivot from one field easly to another? (Let's say you started off as a embedded systems engineer, then went to do software / ML / AI, but then went into bio-engineering / biomedical.)

Looking to see if any anons have been able to realistically keep as many options as possible in their engineering career. Is that possible or is this line of thinking just supreme pie-in-the-sky dreaming?

>>12530101
eventually (if you want to make "big bucks") you will have specialise in something

unfortunately pople don't pay well for generalists

>>12530217
Money's not the problem so long as I can afford a house, food, transportation, etc, with a little on the side for hobbies.

I mostly just don't want to be stuck specializing on only one field, and wanted to see if there are engineers who managed any real success in doing so.

>>12529373
Of course, that's nowhere near as competitive as nanotechnology which is baseline for semiconductor research for EE/CE(not saying it's exclusive to these 2 but more accessible to them next to chem eng and pure physics majors) if that's what you're getting at. Why do you mech eng bash on other majors like retards? I can't relate being in aero eng and seeing this stupid shit on this board, I don't understand the appeal besides being a pathetic cope because you're lost in life and have such fragile value in your degree.

>>12530308
>Why do you mech eng bash on other majors like retards?
We don't?
>I can't relate being in aero eng and seeing this stupid shit on this board,
Most people who work in the aerospace industry, at least in America are
>Mech E
>Elec E
>everyone else.
Most engineering projects rely on mechanicals and electricals for the serious work.

>>12529622
The thing is that life IS all about money... if you are poor. When you can't pay your bills trust me that money is all you'll be thinking about 24/7. So the most rational thing to do is to avoid that fate at all cost. Having comfortable savings and a stable income can allow you to actually not think about money and think about how to live your life.

You will have neither as a postdoc.

>>12530335
>You will have neither as a postdoc.
What does a postdoc mean? You mean like a lecturer at a university that also does research but does not have tenure? In the UK, such people earn around £35k - 45k on the low end. That is more than enough to live decently if you're not a greedy, materialistic, person. Especially if you have a partner who earns similarly.

>>12530343
>That is more than enough to live decently if you're not a greedy, materialistic, person.

I guess that is not false but forget about ever owning a home or... anything for that matter. But there is also the point about honor. What do you believe you are worth? Do you believe that after 4 years of undergrad, 2 years for your MSc and 4+ years in a PhD you deserve to be paid as much as Mc Donald's cashier?

Then, I must say, you have such a low image of yourself that you are exactly the perfect candidate for university administration to bully and torture eternally. See pic related.

>>12530474
>I guess that is not false but forget about ever owning a home or... anything for that matter
Why? Two people earning 35k (70k per year) can own a home.
Phd's working at universities get paid a lot more than McDonalds cashiers.

>>12530485
Well, I guess there's no point in arguing. And I wouldn't want to deprive this world of yet another scientist. If you think you are worth so little then please go ahead and make the world a better place for us.

>>12530512
>If you think you are worth so little then please go ahead and make the world a better place for us.
Reverse psychology, huh?
Pretty good, anon, pretty good.
Happy new year, anyway, faggit.

>>12529195
The green book by Xinfeng Zhou is also pretty good for practising quant interview questions

How can a thirdoid nigger like me from the Philippines get a job in quant finance in a nearby country like HK? Quant jobs are nonexistent here since the financial system is really primitive, the closest are actuarial jobs.

>>12531814
I actually do not know the difference between a quant analyst and an actuary.
t. dumb third worlder

>>12523121
The Open University (UK) is what you're looking for if you want an accredited degree in Maths. Make sure you apply for credit transfer if you've done some uni level Maths courses already.

>>12530308
>Why do you mech eng bash on other majors like retards?
its literally always a seething EE that starts one of these debates. Probably bc the MechE who specialised in mechatronics has the exact same skillset as him, but without being forced at degree start to only do electronic shit.

>>12531814
>nigger
This term is no longer racist

>>12520587
>https://sciencecareergeneral.neocities.org/
>*The author is seeking additional input to diversify the content into containing all STEM fields (currently only physics is present)


This sticky is pretty good, if a bit pessimistic. I will add some thoughts/critique from my perspective (PhD in Chemical Engineering in Germany plus research stays in other countries, but a lot applies to materials science (chemistry, physics and MechE etc. majors included)):

>Starting a PhD
For ChemE at least these 3 broad categories are more or less identical (with theoretical being less common in ChemE, but still there).

>Your advisor...professors, citations, h index
DO NOT aim to get a high h-index professor. I made this mistake. My professor is a top 100 h-index Leibniz prize winner. My Prof. is brilliant, the cons heavily outweigh the pros in my opinion as I outline below:

PROS:
>Your Prof. has a great network and his name on any grant you write/letter of recommendation will drastically increase your chances of getting anything you apply for when you graduate.
>Your Prof. has more (grant) money than God, he will give you anything you need within reason.

1/?

>>12532361
ONS:
>Your Prof. has radically different goals than that of a young PhD.
>You don't get taught anything new.
>Prof. doesn't have time for you.
When I started I was told that the he will not make time for me until my manuscript is ready (for those of you who don't know this mean that your first research project is already ready to be published). I was fine with this, it suited me even, but what I didn't realize at the time is that my first manuscript had to be Nature potential or equivalent. Publishing anything less is not worth it to your Prof. because it will just lower his IF. So every paper he puts his name on will have to at least stand a chance of beating his lowest top 20 paper for citations. This is not good for young PhDs who need to get as many papers out as possible (you should aim for at least 5, but realistically you need 10 to be competative, aim for Nature with 1-2 of those).

It is better to apply to an associate professor who is still just starting his career. You will be allowed to publish faster (and garner citations/attention while you work towards your Nature-tier cap). Many of my US collaborators are like this and they all have jobs at IBM and Google lined in their second year already.


>Salaries
Germany, like Switzerland has 70k (USD) salaries _if_ you get a 100% employment contract (usually meaning you are employed by the state as a scientific researcher, but it's a myth that the state ever asks you to do any work, you get to work on your PhD full time, unless you are 50% paid WIMI by Prof. and 50% paid to TA etc). Usually engineering PhD positions especially at Fraunhofer labs pay 100%. Physics and other sciences is usually paid at 60%. More prestigious universities and national labs either pay 0% (you pay out of pocket) or a maximum of 60% at Max Planck Institute labs. A special case is TUM which has a 2000 euro (tax free) scholarship for all PhDs.

2/?

>>12532367
*CONS

>Transition to industry
DO NOT do a postdoc, it will definitely harm your career if you fail to get into full time academia after. You should aim to start networking heavily at conferences and through your professor in your final year. Also a PROTIP is that PhDs can still do internships at R&D departments. This is more than worth it if you do well you will get your 6 figure starting salary when you graduate.

>Jobmarket
The good news is that there are a few industrial positions that only hire PhDs, especially in pharma, aerospace, computational chemistry firms, big data etc. The bad news is that there are far more PhD graduates than open postions. Look for universities that have strong ties to an industry you want to work in and do not just at the most prestigious universities. I've met Stanford and CMU grads that are unemployed. You _need_ to work your network for a position. About 1 in 10 PhD grads end up working for really cool companies in areas like defense, aerospace or pharma. About 5 in 10 get low salaried positions at startups (battery companies, specialist industrial equipment) and the rest do postdocs. This is less gloomy than the undergrad picture (everyone is employed in an actual STEM position).

The sticky mentions patents. Be warned that at most labs patents you develop belongs primarily to the lab. You might get some royalties for it, but you can't usually start your own company with it or sell it to Musk.

In general I would recommend you follow the meme trends. Even big, serious companies jump on the niave hype train and hire you. Ten years ago a lot of firms hired on the "nanotech" buzz word. Today if you get some kind machine learning publication at on of the top 3 conferences you will likely get a good position somewhere. Quantum computing meme is also hiring.
One final note of advice: don't waste your time posting about major politics on /sci/. Where you publish matters far more than the discipline on your degree.

3/3

>>12532367
>It is better to apply to an associate professor who is still just starting his career.
Quite an interesting point, of which I hadn't considered previously. Does this advice also apply for seeking a MSc. advisor? Is maximizing publication output still the primary objective in that case?

>>12532398
Man I never would've guessed it. I actually spent so much time trying to find the best, most prestigious researcher in my field too, I had thought it would only be good for my career. Never imagined I would actually get to work for someone this good...and that it would turn out so bad.

>Does this advice also apply for seeking a MSc. advisor? Is maximizing publication output still the primary objective in that case?
Yes and no. The goal with an MSc. should be to get a single quality publication (there often isn't time for more; in a PhD you will be building the tools over 2-3 years for a series of 1-5 publications that quickly follows your first). The reason for that goal is because 50% of MSc. graduates don't even have a single journal publication on graduation, so you already have that advantage and it's better to just max out the journal prestige in this case. Basically if you work for a top Professor he will mostly ignore you, but there's a good chance you will get a second or third authorship in a Q1 journal (Nature tier is definitely possible too) while doing a project that is well defined by the PhD student in charge of you. If you work for a more junior professor you will probably have more freedom and the chance to get a first authorship (which will really impress the committee in your PhD applications).

Also note that what you do actually matters. Your MSc. is about getting you into a subfield for your PhD. With respect to publications even a Q1 journal isn't great if the paper is boring or if you didn't contribute that much to the project (they will ask you in the interview precisely what you did). A conference paper is worth less than a journal paper unless it's a competitive peer reviewed conference proceeding.

>>12531814
>>12531933

I can help.
>What is the difference between a quant analyst and an actuary?

I think the simplest way to distinguish them is by considering the products they work with. An actuary by definition works exclusively on insurance policies (which are actually quite varied, think about death, car, house, and the many times of business insurance). So your job is very specifically to price these insurance products in a way that makes you money while avoiding the possibility that your company goes belly-up (like if, for example, an event occurred that made everyone file a claim against you at the same time).

If you are a quant in a typical fund then you work with a more general set of assets. You could technically also be exposed to insurance by buying insurance derivatives but this is pretty rare. You will typically be working with stocks, bonds and derivatives based on those two. (Here derivatives just being financial products that relate in some way to a given asset).

Another significant difference you may care about is that actuaries are usually regulated up the ass. There are some set tests that you NEED to pass before you can even hold the title of actuary. While for quant no one gives a shit as long as you are smart... but you'll usually have a Masters or PhD in something.

>>12532457
Thank you for the advice, anon! I will consider all of these things whilst applying for graduate schools next year.

>>12532498
Best of luck Anon.

Geology MS student here. I definitely chose the wrong major. Thinking I’ll probably get an MBA or something at some point. Maybe I’ll get a PhD in economic geology between now and then.

Are self funded Phds worth it?

>>12532816
Depends. If you were able to get a funded position, but instead want to work on your own problems, maybe. If not the chances are that Profs. will just use you to restock lab supplies and pay Masters students while giving you minimal respect and attention. There's a certain kind of professional respect that only comes from when you have won a formal contract (and in particular competing against other candidates for the position). If you want to break into a research community and its industrial network you will need this respect from the people introducing you.

If you are not planning on trying to break into a career then it's worth it, but it's basically just you paying to use their lab space to develop your own idea/papers/patent.

>>12532816
Be warned though I have seen some really nasty shit from self funded Masters students. Professors can be cunts. They use people and don't really explain to them how little the degree means without a letter of recommendation to go with it.

I don't feel like my BEng has taught me how to be a researcher and I doubt it will since I finish this year. I want to do a PhD, something related to materials and material failure, but I don't think I am ready. Personally. Should I do an Msc first? In my country every Msc program spends time on actually teaching you how to be a good researcher. I fear that if I jump into a PhD right away I will be overwhelmed.

>>12532457
What if I want to do an MSc only to get a better job and have no interest in research?

>>12532947
I would strongly advise you to reconsider gradschool completely. Materials Science and Engineering in particularly is oversaturated and competative. Usually graduates who enter our programme will already have 1-2 RAs and produced good research in their final year, usually by building on confidence from having proposed and implemented their own ideas in some.

If you've graduated and you're still not sure if you'd make a good researcher the answer is "no".

Does anyone here have experience with the FPGA-design industry?

>>12533048
It doesn't increase your chances of getting a better job, quite the opposite. Industry professionals are aware that most people who do a M are graduates who couldn't immediately find a good job on their bachelors graduation. No one will hold this against you because you graduated in Covid times, but you will be competing against a massive pool of graduates because a lot of students hide in gradschool during an economic downturn.

And as unfair as this sounds a more recent B graduate will be considered a stronger candidate than you.

What I'm saying on the one hand is based on engineers' opinions that I've heard from both industry snd academia (as well as my own opinion when seeing CVs when I help recruit for our lab), on the other hand on a more practical note I have never in my life seen a single job posting with a M as a minimum requirement.

If you don't want to do research then don't waste your youth and earning potential in gradschool.

>>12533177
I haven't graduated yet. I think my final year project will be turn out quite good, I have the best professor at my school for that field as my advisor. I'm working on producing a fully 3-D printed pneumatic robot gripper for manufacturing applications.
I just don't feel confident jumping into a PhD program right away.
Maybe I'm just having a bad day and panicking...

>>12533217
Not him, but that sounds retarded since I always wanted to do an Msc first before entering the job market.

>>12533222
You should take my perspectives with a grain of salt, I am not aware of your circumstances. You have the best information for making your own decisions.

>>12533225
I agree with you, but unfortunately it is the prevailing opinion in my experience. People in industry _really_ look down on people who stay in academia too long, what I posted is pretty light in comparison to what of those senior engineers believe. They think everyone working at a university is a loser.

>>12528690

People generally self-select into roles like this.

If I want to get a PhD after I finish my MS will I need to start from scratch coursework-wise? I feel like they should halve the coursework. I guess this must also depend on if I stay at my current uni.

>>12533272
In America would start from scratch if you move unis. In Europe a PhD does not have coursework work so this is an option if you get an M.

>>12525440
UK accepted many from China in the past.

>>12528946
>was at McK for a bit
Can you tell more about this?

>>12532361
>This sticky is pretty good, if a bit pessimistic.
Thanks for your input, I'll definitely add this to the next revision when I'm home again.

>>12533258
>People in industry _really_ look down on people who stay in academia too long
Obtaining a MSc. is considered “too long” in academia now? That sounds like nonsense. How many students can enter industry immediately upon earning their bachelors, and amongst those, how many evolve out of entry level positions? You can’t even earn a lead scientist position w/o obtaining a PhD.

>>12520587
Hey /sci/, if you guys had to pick between computer science or i.t. for an associates degree in community college what would you guys pick? Because I am a broke ass that can't afford to go to university, and for which one of you what would be less likely to blow your brains out from the work?

>>12534174
>computer science
Code monkey. You can take it into more specialized fields which pay more, or you can crank out bullshit in a corporate environment. The pay is good and we need a lot of these motherfuckers. Better if you work outside of a high cost of living area, because you know all this shit is going remote.

>i.t. for an associates degree in community college
Lower pay (but cheaper to get). The work is more blue-collar. You need to keep up with whatever tech stack the corps are using. There's shittier on-call hours and you have to put out fires.

>can't afford to go to university,
Sucks to be you. Either field is harder with a shitty community college degree.

> what would be less likely to blow your brains out from the work?
com-sci. If you can get anyone to hire you with a shitty community college degree. Small companies and mom&pop shops will have more openings for shitty IT workers, but the work will suck more in general.

>>12532361
>>12532367
>>12532371
Thanks for posting, really valuable insight.
Are you German? I'm an Aussie (MechE) considering postgraduate study overseas and Germany is high on the list.

>>12534174
>associates degree

Cringe as fuck bro

Got a whopping 3.0 GPA for my undergrad engineering degree. I got a 330 on the GRE tho.

Assuming I can get my work to pay for it, what’s a good euro school I could get into as an American?

>>12534825
Do you speak German? Knowing German at least at a semi-fluent level is a prerequisite for studying in Germany hands down. Other than the language barrier it's super comfy going to college there, and free.

>>12528082
I'm in power myself, super secure industry (everyone needs more electricity), pay is nice too.

Should I get a degree in Electrical Engineering or Math?

>>12534864
I don't speak a lick of German, but I'd do my best to learn the local language of where ever I end up. Cheap tuition is nice as well. I'd be keen to do a masters over there and then come home for the PhD, I've heard overseas experience looks good on applications

>>12534018
I'm sorry for posting another wall of text, but it's a complicated issue. One that I've discussed with many engineers and professors over my life.

First of all you have to realise that the kind of immaturity you find here on /sci/ extends deep into adulthood. You will especially find this in STEM fields and companies with a toxic work environment[math]^{[1]}[/math] If you don't believe me on that just read any of the professional forums or even just LinkedIn posts of senior engineers and scientists. I, of course, did end up doing a Masters and am now busy with my PhD so I'm not trying to convince you not to do gradschool at all: only that your goals and your plans to achieve them should be based in a practical understanding of the reality.

The second key point you should realise is that " lead scientist" is not a desirable position when you have an engineering degree. I worked at a large industrial R&D lab [math]^{[2]}[/math] for a year after my bachelors and I can promise you that you would rather have a BEng than a PhD in Physics/Chemistry in that environment. Every company is different of course, but the way it worked at that particular company is that you have two STEM professional salary scales (excluding techs). Engineers have Engineer I, II, III, IV etc. Scientists have I, II, III, IV etc.

1. This is not just some feminist blog bullshit, some companies are filled with shit people and it's impossible to do your job there.
2. A division of a large international company you would recognise.

[cont.]

>>12535242
>>12534018
Now, both have the exact same responsibilities in all the R&D departments (I - junior grunt work, II - senior grunt work, then team lead, then manager etc.) and the teams are mixed with Engineers and Scientists on the same salary scale performing the same duties in the same groups, but the salaries for engineers are way higher at the same level. Progressing up the engineering chain is also easier, because for example getting your PE/CEng/EuroE can automatically move you up a level. A Masters might allow you to start at II [math]^{[3]}[/math], but so can just working at the company for 1-3 years (while also getting a full time salary instead of a measly stipend).

Another perfect example of jumping progression is one of our teams who developed a new process. Now on this team was a bunch of science PhDs and one engineer with just bachelors. They all got credit and bonuses for developing the process, but not only did the junior engineer on the team get a bigger one, but he also got a massive promotion straight to Engineer IV. Why? Because he had just got his CEng so the company put him in charge of commissioning the plant for the new process they developed. Suddenly this guy in his mid 20s is not only a manager, but he is also paid more than double the lead scientists who was his former boss and the engineer is way higher up the corporate ladder than the other guy who was in his 50s (and in my opinion at least commissioning a plant is more interesting work than lab grunt work). If you think there was no bitterness after that you're wrong, the way people complained was on the tier that I see on 4chan.


3. Usually it doesn't unless you were hired for something special if you were basically doing your Masters working directly with the people at the company; a Masters started with me at I.

>>12535247
>>12534018

As a more personal example took over responsibility for an Engineer II who was on maternity leave and suddenly I was leading a team that included a Chemistry PhD who was 10 years older than I am. Scientists are not respected in many industries. It's not good to be specialised outside of academia or highly specialised industry like Pharma research [math]^{[4]}[/math].


My third an final point:
>How many students can enter industry immediately upon earning their bachelors, and amongst those, how many evolve out of entry level positions?
Alright now we are getting to the heart of the matter. Think about this: Assuming you went to an IEC/ABET accredited university, then a bachelors degree is all you need to get your PE/CEng/EuroE right? So if you are already on track to get your professional engineering license from just the bachelors then what possible value does a Masters bring to the table? Usually postgraduate degrees don't even carry accreditation, _only_ the bachelors degree does. What's going on here? Mostly it's Professors that will tell you that Masters has value and makes you a more attractive candidate. This is complete bullshit. We try to convince students to do a Masters because they are cheap semi-slave labour. It might be sort of valued in academic circles, but even there no one cares about you until you get your PhD. What I'm trying to say is that the Masters degree is nearly always pointless, especially a research based on (it doesn't allow you to do research that a bachelors can't do; what's the point?).
4. For which you need a PhD anyway, so this is again different from the poster above who just wanted to do his Masters

[cont.]

>>12535251
As for a course work based Masters what the fuck are you "specializing" in? The watered down version of an ivory tower Professor's research? This is unironically just an outright scam [math]^{[5]}[/math]. Either do your PhD because you're gunning for an academic career (which is extremely risky regardless of how smart and snowflake you are) or just stay away and don't burn your youth away on something that doesn't at least progress your career or puts money in your account.


As for how many students enter industry it depends on the quality of your university more than anything. At top schools 90% of students will find great salaried work [math]^{[6]}[/math]. At lower tier schools about 40% of students will end up as underemployed wage slaves after not finding qualified work (or even getting into gradschool). Let's say about 30% finds good work of which about half that number is an engineering position. Ok so now what about the other 30%? Now some will go straight into a PhD programme, but the rest are basically hold outs who couldn't find good engineering positions, but are aware that taking a McJobs is a career killer that washes the last 4 years of studying down the drain. So they get into gradschool and try again in 2 years? Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't and they up wasting 6 years only to end up in a McJobs, but one thing I can guarantee you is that the person reading your CV _knows_ that you couldn't find work 2 years earlier and that automatically makes a less attractive candidate than a more recent graduate.


-
5. Did you know for example that we charge industry engineers and students who pay out of pocket 3x more than the students who are on academic tracks and scholarships?
6. Either industry/corporate track or research/academic, but not always STEM work.


[end]

I hope you all get the point. Do not do a fucking Masters. Do a bachelors or a PhD if you are really talented and good at petty politics.

>>12534825
I am technically German, but I grew up and did my bachelors in another Anglosphere country.

>>12534864
>>12535146

Speaking Germany is absolutely not a requirement, at least not for a PhD. I can barely speak (standard) German myself yet.

As for going to college here it depends on what you want from university. The student life here is non-existent. With respect to tuition be careful to note that only some Bundesländer are still free (and also nothing that consumes your time is really free so make sure you're doing this for the right reason), tuition will probably cost around 6k euros at every university soon because the German government is waking up to the fact there is no benefit in training international students that just jump ship to higher salaries in the US anyway.

Another thing to note is that international Bachelors and Masters students have to pay something like 10k euros per year into an account to get a student visa (which is then paid back to you monthly to cover your living costs). The great thing about German universities is that there appears to be a lot of work for students here do garner extra experience and cash.

>I've heard overseas experience looks good on applications

This is true, and you should try to build up your network in as many countries as possible. Germany is a great place to study mechanical engineering in general.

>>12535257
Very compelling argument, thanks for taking the time to post. But I have to ask why you continued with the masters and PhD? You mentioned that you worked in a research environment after your bachelors, and conditions were better for those with just a BEng, so why bother?

>>12535300
>Speaking Germany is absolutely not a requirement, at least not for a PhD
That makes things easy.

I've got a job lined up for when I graduate (also in a R&D environment), so was thinking of going for the masters or PhD after a few years. Honestly I like school and my subject area, so I figured doing interesting study in an interesting place while I was young and free was a good idea. While you say that a masters is a waste of time, most of the dream job listings I see ask for a masters at the minimum. I can totally see where you're coming from though and I've heard similar from others, so I'm a bit conflicted. I'm also interested in a PhD (especially the funding), but then there's the issue of being overqualified for most jobs. Thoughts?

>>12534018
>Obtaining a MSc. is considered “too long” in academia now?
That depends on culture and field. In Germany a PhD is normal in industry but in Norway a Master's degree can be seen as a sign of being an eternal student.

>>12535257
I'm only doing a master's because I want to work in a foreign country.
t. Third worlder currently doing master's in a Western country

>>12535425
>But I have to ask why you continued with the masters and PhD? You mentioned that you worked in a research environment after your bachelors, and conditions were better for those with just a BEng, so why bother?

I want to be in academia. I got a few relatively high impact publications early on in Bachelors and again in my Masters so I hope to have a competitive CV by the time I finish my postdoc. Still I'm probably delusional (we have like 20 PhD candidates per professor here, it's insanely over-saturated), my fallback is to try and join the military university here and eventually try to get a job in the defence industry. As long as I get to work in research I will be happy I guess.

In general I enjoy the research and academic environment. It has a lot of downsides and it's not for everyone, but overall I enjoy it.

>>12535525
>In Germany a PhD is normal in industry
I mean yes, but only for companies that heavily invest in R&D like BASF etc. and you are usually working in an R&D role and not a traditional engineering role. Overall I think the prospects for Dr.-Ing. holders here are really decent in comparison to most other countries. It's confusing in Germany with the Diplom system being recently discarded though. It's difficult to compare the German system with other Western countries.

>>12535562
This kind of works in the sense that it will get you a work visa more easily, but also beware that in the USA for example your Bachelors has to be in the ABET database for you to sit the FE (for a professional engineering license) and most Masters degrees don't allow you to sit this.

You also really have to network hard while you're there. We have a lot of unemployed Masters graduates for example (especially out of India as they tend to want to stay unlike China), and often they don't find work until their 6 month post graduation visa expires. You have to impress someone while you're here, it is not enough to just get the paper degree.

>>12535668
Again, thanks for posting. Hopefully the career general gets updated with your input.

>>12535668
Kek I'm an Indian but not in America
>often they don't find work until their 6 month post graduation visa expires.
So what do they do? Go back to India and apply for H1B visa?

>>12535856
They go back to India. The job market is not as bad in India as it used to be depending on the province, but I would be lying if I told you I stay in touch with them as I only hear about people whos visas run out, I don't really know them. Generally my Indian friends/collaborators that I do stay in touch with are succesful and working at good jobs (mostly in America), but they all have extremely good work ethic compared to most other people I know who didn't find anything here.

I wouldn't stress that much if I were you, even if you don't find a visa sponsored job. I think the WFH revolution is going to change things a lot. There aren't many companies left that can afford _not_ to have an Indian branch (because often you need people in all timezones working on the same project to get it done fast enough for your clients).

I understand wanting to work in the freedomland of 6 figures though. Best of luck to you Anon.

>>12535968
Thanks for your input in this thread anon

Any of you know much about Prosthetics and Orthotics as a field? I found a very neat PhD opportunity for this.
https://www.findaphd.com/phds/program/up-to-10-fully-funded-four-year-phd-studentships-are-available-in-the-epsrc-centre-for-doctoral-training-in-prosthetics-and-orthotics/?i112p4329
>Fully paid and funded
>Collaborative research between 4 different unis and different fields
>Take engineering, mathematics, physics, biology, etc students
>4 years long, 1st year is taught and clinical/industry based, final 3 years are research at whichever university of the 4 that you choose
One of the possible research areas is advanced materials and composites. Which something I am very interested in and I would be coming from an engineering background.

>>12536170
Forgot to mention, this is the only research group on this topic in the whole of the UK, I believe.

UK fag here, how is the Patent attorney career path? How would an MSC Chemistry student enter said career path?

>>12535251
I appreciate all of your contributions to the thread, anon! I may be naive, but I suspect your points regarding the utility of graduate schools is primarily from the perspective of engineering? My experience from chatting with peers also tells me that engineering graduate students are those whom simply couldn’t cut it following completion of their bachelors. Although, this doesn’t seem to be entirely true for students studying the natural sciences.

I would estimate that 25% of natural science bachelors recipients attend graduate school or a professional program (Medicine, veterinary, etc.), 10% get a wagecuck research assistant job in academia, 10% successfully integrate into industry (varying levels of success with respect progressing from entry level positions), and 55% retrain for a more vocational degree/trade OR McJob. It seems that unless you were particularly proactive during undergrad in networking outside of academia or attended a prestigious institution, then the market value of your bachelors degree is quite low.

I am a 3rd year undergraduate student at a mediocre university, so I am going to try branching out and making contacts in industry to avoid being filtered. Nonetheless, I will probably end up in graduate school or medicine despite my desire to enter industry and begin building a career.

>>12536278
Yes, those posts are exclusively geared towards engineering graduates and engineering colleges at the Masters level. In science and math it's the opposite situation where everyone is clawing to get into any gradschool they can, but there are few funded positions. Often the ones who don't get into a funded programme end up working as techs or McJobs etc.

>It seems that unless you were particularly proactive during undergrad in networking outside of academia or attended a prestigious institution, then the market value of your bachelors degree is quite low.

As you said a science and/or math bachelors degree by itself has very limited value. The idea is that you would usually do a research career with something like physics or math and you are not considered qualified for research until you have your PhD, so it is relatively difficult to find work in industry directly. There are things like tech positions, quality control etc., but they're all competitive and don't pay well. Almost every STEM degree can also transition into software development and so forth, just aim for an internship at some clueless company/bank that will pay you to learn programming on the job.

The exception, as always, is if you come from a prestigious school. You can probably become a quant etc. with just a math/physics degree I think some Anons posted about those pathways earlier in this thread.

>I would estimate that 25% of natural science bachelors recipients attend graduate school or a professional program (Medicine, veterinary, etc.),
I don't know about natural sciences in general, but for Physics it is 50% going to gradschool according to the AIP. These sound like good odds, but the quality of course the quality of the graduate schools varies a lot.


Good luck with your networking Anon.

Is it too late for university if you start at 27?
I'm getting my high school diploma this year at night school.

>>12536767
No it's never too late. Best of luck anon. Keep studying and keep trying your best.

>>12536770

this

>>12536767
No. I didn't start until I was 27.

>>12536170
BUMP

>>12536770
STOP BEING SO NICE
I CAN'T HANDLE NICE PEOPLE ON MY 4CHINZ, REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Right now, I'm wondering where a degree in Business Administration will get me.

I'm not exactly cut out for anything physical

>>12536237
Patent attorney career in the West in general is good. The FAQ has some info. In the UK you will have to take the UK and EP exams. There is plenty of work and job security is very good.

>>12537441
Kk but I heard only 40 chemistry graduates get places in trainee jobs per year?

>>12520587
hey anons. im creating a new fresh resume. im a computer engineer and graduating in a half a year. how should i put my skills on the resume. obviously ill put my internships on it and other shit, but for my skills im having issues with. I have worked on my different embedded shit. should I say "AVR, ARM, ...." or just summarize it as something else? should skills be more general like "Embedded Development"
thanks in advance.

>>12537512
Still plenty of opportunities. You can also apply for a job as an Examiner at UKIPO or EPO (which is not part of EU and thus not impacted by Brexit).
A MSc is a minimum requirement, many also have a PhD.

>>12537520
Write embedded but also list the ones you have experience with, especially DSPs take time to master so employers will want to see specifics.

>>12537520
btw should i fill as many buzzwords from this that are relevant?
https://calvin.edu/dotAsset/00979e28-71bf-4f44-a30c-f7cedc585167.pdf

>>12537565
Allow PhDs, can’t be bothered. How is the actuarial career path? It seems to be a sick job

What jobs can I get with an economics bachelors?
I'm trying to get into audit, but I don't really put all that much faith into it working out. Finance is about as likely to work.

>>12534804
The thing is I can technically go to uni, its not
because I can't afford it but I will have to take a year off after graduating from cc to help save & pay for it that I will be near my 30's by the time I graduate.

I'm in a sticky situation atm, what would you do if you were in my shoes anon. I'm thinking that you're more established that I am in this field

>>12536767
Yes, kind of. Your late career earnings will be too low for it to be worth at this point.

If you have enough money to retire on and you want to start something new out of interest then that's definitely worth trying though.

>>12537748
>Your late career earnings will be too low for it to be worth at this point.
Compared to what? He may be cleaning toilets at this point, so going in computer science or engineering, even if he ends up being a high school teacher at the end, is still much better in long term earnings. Why would you go on a Chinese cartoon forum and lie to someone like this?

>>12528946
How did you get the job? You have to be a super star to even get a first round

As an europoor with gratis education finishing a CS undergrad, shall I move on to a MS in CS or EE-signal processing?
I'm studying at a school that's considered prestigious and math-heavy and basically everyone around seems to find the CS path better (and harder, too).. just /sci/ makes me wonder if signal processing isn't the right direction now - it's interesting and perhaps sounds better to an employer outside of Europe who doesn't know how hard the CS school is known to be.

Also, with CS, I'd go for the theoretical path. desu I consider the systems path better, but it's just too soul crushing for me.. doing TCS seems lame though if one can rather go for pure math..
Would appreciate anon's thoughts on this.

>>12537748
The neat thing about STEM is that as long as your mind isn’t lost to dementia or something, you can work till you die. He’s got 30+ years of career ahead of him.

>>12535257
Anon but what if my undergrad GPA is very low and limits me? I've since learned how to excel in school and am not worried about acing a Master's. I feel that it is the only way to get top placements.

>>12520587
Does anyone have that twitter screenshot of the black lady bragging on twitter for getting into medical field because diversity hires?

>>12538314
For $200 and 6 weeks of wait time you can change your last name to Hernandez or something and just start checking the boxes marked Latinx on all the college forms. Nobody can actually tell you what race you are, Native Americans are the only legally defined “race” in the US.

>>12538334
that's why asians just check other or white on their apps lol

>>12537867
>I'm not the guy you're replying to but:
Not gonna lie, having a poor undergraduate GPA will limit you a lot. Most schools literally have a minimum GPA cutoff, below which you will be much more likely to be thrown out with no consideration. It's sad but it's the reality of the situation when schools get 1000 applicants for every 25 positions they're filling.

GPA and GRE scores are more of a "minimum cutoff" than anything else. The major factor in whether you are admitted is how much research experience you have and how strong your letters of recommendation are. Beyond that, the quality of your application essays is also a big factor.

If you went to a top-10 school, a 3.5 (with exceptional recommendations, essays, and research background) can be enough that the top 25 PhD programs in your field will be willing to at least consider you. But they're typically looking for the people with 3.8-4.0, who represent the top few percent of their graduating classes.

If you have a bad GPA and want to get into good programs, your best bet is to spend a couple years working as a research assistant in university labs. Look for positions with a high degree of independence where you have a shot at becoming a first author of a publication, or at least getting your name on some other papers that are already in progress. That's pretty much your only option because grad schools barely give a fuck about any non-academic experience (even in the relevant field). But you need to be willing to resign yourself to $15/hour wages that whole time, since research assistant pay is almost universally capped at that level.

>>12539156
Frankly I will never be able to get into a top 25 PhD without some kind of celebrity status.
From where I stand I don't even want that. I want good placement in industry, and a Master's will help me achieve that.

>>12539181
That's fair. I misinterpreted your reply. I thought you specifically wanted to do a PhD.

With that in mind, that a Masters is definitely the way to go. GPA doesn't matter nearly as much in this case. Think of it this way: the real change in dynamic isn't Undergrad vs. Grad.
It's Masters vs. PhD student, because only in the latter case is the school giving you tens of thousands of dollars per year instead of the other way around

A master's will typically earn you 2-3 years of equivalent career advancement (depending on your field) in terms of differences in starting salary and being able to skip over the entry-pevel roles.
A PhD is more like 15-20 years in the right field, but more in the sense that such careers are basically impossible to prove your worth for without those credentials.

>>12539181
And out of curiosity, what is your undergrad major and what are your career goals (industry and specific position)?

I'm a web dev/ux programmer but want to go into data science, data analytics, data engineering, and machine learning given the amount of data that goes through and is captured by what I create on a daily basis. The current company I work for has been talking about implementing a "data strategy", whatever the fuck that means, for the last 2-3 years I've been there but hasn't done shit to get the ball rolling. I'm sitting on thousands of upon thousands of e-commerce customers' user data and the very fact piqued my interest in the field.

I'm currently in the first week of Andrew Ng's Machine Learning course on Coursera but don't quite know where to go next. Would love some input and feedback as to how I can become a data and machine learning algorithm Chad that increases a business's efficiency and what the job titles/positions to achieve such a thing are called.

Thanks in advance. Here are some nice Jew tits in return

>>12539316
>That's fair. I misinterpreted your reply. I thought you specifically wanted to do a PhD.
Yeah I was definitely too ambiguous in my first post.

I have a math and stat undergrad and would like to get into data science, preferably in consulting or banking. I was able to get two very good internships in F20 companies working alongside MS and PhD's. I haven't been able to land anything worth taking full time, I suspect for getting filtered for my grades.
It's not optimal of course, but from everything I've heard from advisors and read on the internet the best thing to do in my shoes would be to get a Master's.

>>12539420
The most important part of data science is being able to sell. How good are you at building decks?

>>12539439
Pretty fucking good. I shit you not. I worked in digital marketing and have to do it all the time.

>>12539477
*work

>>12537772
Compared to his earning potential with no higher education at all. Compared to his earning potential investing into practical/tech certs (think Amazon web service etc.) and apprenticing for a trade. I'm not going to do the annuity calculations for you because you can Google some public posts of financial managers who have done the calculations pro bono for people who have asked similar questions.

You're also probably not considering cost of education, lost income etc. To give you an example many degrees in the UK no longer amortize over a lifetime (on average) even if you start at 18 and finish at 21. These include certain STEM degrees and postgraduate degrees.

OWTW with a degree is a highly outdated concept which only the most of touch boomers still believe in. Any personal finance manager worth his salt will tell you that starting a bachelors degrees past 25 is a poor investment.

Starting at 27 is rediculously late. Some practical advice is to rather invest in something like a AWS cert. You can earn 6 figures before someone who starts a new degree is in their sophomore year. Also if you find a job at an Amazon fulfillment centre they offer all employees free training.

There's little point in me elaborating detail because frankly people are religious about higher education and have already made up their mind and are just looking for people to reaffirm their bad idea. More people than ever end up with too little retirement savings at 65, I hope at that point you guys think back to this post and remember some last bits of practical advice: do not rent in the city or other expensive areas, adapt your lifestyle and eating habits early, try to buy into the public health insurance if at all possible in your country, make sure you are aware concerning possible laws for your spouse to draw a state pension.

>>12537834
>The neat thing about STEM is that as long as your mind isn’t lost to dementia or something, you can work till you die.

I mean, also no, most people are forced into retirement. This is happening even to people in their 50s these days. Chances are you will not even be promoted to the kind of late career salaries roles you need to by the time you are forced to retire. You can "keep working" as a consultant, but you will not make a lot of money like that, nowhere near late career salaries.

But again I don't want to reply to zealotry. Google age discrimination. Do your own research. Just don't expect people not call your BS here because some Anons reading this might want genuine advice and not wishful thinking.

>>12537827
CS is very hot right now I would do that if I were you.

>>12537867
>>12539181
>>12539436
First of all my condolences, I know that you are in a very difficult position, but I've seen people climb out from worse. My advice was geared towards upper quartile graduates that had more options (and engineering graduates in particular).

I guess the first obvious question is to establish how low is the "very low" we're talking about? Is it even possible for you to get into a mediocre graduate school (usually a 3.0 cutoff)? Otherwise of course your decision becomes easier so maybe just apply anyway to put your mind at ease that it was never an option to begin. The other Anon is right about the cutoff though, even at mediocre schools if you make the cutoff your letters of recommendation become very important and ethical professors wouldn't be willing to write you a strong one.

If you get accepted the next question becomes if you want to double down your investment. There are no easy answers, but you should be aware that anywhere that they check your Masters grades they will almost certainly check your Bachelor grades (and usually your full transcript). The value for you here would be a fresh chance to network and to try and get letters of recommendation from Profs, do not just aim for a high GPA. Is this something you think you could pull off? Otherwise there are easier pathways into data science.

> I suspect for getting filtered for my grades.
Are you putting your grade on your CV? Never do that if it's low (if you leave it off they will assume it's "low", but they won't know how low).

>>12539156
I don't think he will get a RA (which is super competitive even if you're already a registered Masters student) unless he has a Prof. in his family or something and is willing to work for free. We forget (or never noticed) that funded RAs are given to the top 10-30% of bachelors maybe and say half the Masters students, but anything is worth a shot at this point. The bit about aiming for a first authorship is very good advice.

>>12539638
>>12537867
It’s also worth considering your upper level GPA, rather than only your cumulative GPA. An anon earlier in the thread mentioned that his early university experience tanked his cumulative GPA, but many graduate schools he was applying to only had a requirement for upper level GPA (typically the final 2 year or 4 semesters of a bachelors degree). In this case, he had a strong upper level GPA, so his concerns of a low cumulative GPA weren’t actually relevant.

>>12539513
Yeah if his ambition in life is to stack lucre he should take your advice, if he isn't a spiritual midget and wants to do something for the passion of it maybe he shouldn't.

How do I go from UK --> US?

I am graduating this year with an MSc in Computer Science from the University of London (a good college but don't want to say)

>>12539782
UCL or King's?
Why do you wanna go to America anyway?

>>12539788

Higher salary, british people are lazy and useless and it pisses me off, lower population density, better food and women that are actually attractive.

>>12539741
Thanks for your input. If you look past your rage you will notice that I actually already said that in the first post
>>12537748
>If you have enough money to retire on and you want to start something new out of interest then that's definitely worth trying though.

Perhaps you should start with reading comprehension before investing in higher education.

>>12539804
Brits aren't lazy, they have just been flooded with high skilled immigrants so much that even the midcareer salaries aren't worth working towards anymore.

America is definitely going to remain a better option for several decades to come.

>>12539816
I'm so confused now
t. Filipino planning to do Master's in the UK

>>12537700
Most patent law firms are partnerships so the obvious path is to become a partner which means higher income. Some go to in-house positions which can lead to C-suite positions.
In any case, work is good and interesting and also very varied. Can recommend.

>>12539420
You’re a programmer so I assume you’re self taught in a lot of things like most programmers are. Pick an Oreilly book on Introductory Data Science with R or Python. Pick an introductory book on machine learning and some of the ML learning tools out there like scikit and tensor flow. sentdex has some of the best practical ML tutorials I’ve seen on YT. Go on linked in and see what ML engineers, data scientists, and data engineers are doing. You’ll eventually come to find out that these job titles are pretty new and have been hyped my marketing. There’s. A lot of cross over but if you learn some statistical models and ML algorithms you’ll do well. A lot of the people in the field come in two flavors. The first are legit software engineers and developers who then apply what they learn and tackle problems like an engineer. The second are milquetoast academic types who will bend under pressure when the going gets tough and as newly minted Data Science MSs from schools that started graduate degree programs in data science in the last 3 years. I earned my BS in CS a few years ago and taught myself everything I know about ML and data science and lead a group of newly minted fuckwit Data Science grads that were sucking their thumbs while we were building neural nets for the fuck of it. Anyway I hope this helps demistify things. I have a raging headache from a hangover and I’m typing on my phone. Good luck.

>>12539875
>sentdex
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OGxgnH8y2NM
Is this the video series you were talking about?

>>12539875
>Anyway I hope this helps demistify things.
No, not all. This post is just an extended rant against newgrads.

>>12539887
Yes. Everything on his channel is great. The neural network content he’s uploaded is some of the best. He’s like a lecture and a lab in one. I still haven’t found an equivalent channel with a focus on data science that shows you theory and application with R or Python. A lot of my team members have told me that me that DataCamp is a fantastic boot camp to go through if you need to have your hand held.

>>12539896
Thanks a lot anon!

>>12539893
Well anon, grad schools aren’t sending us their best. It’s a sad reality that universities have become incubators and hugboxes for those who suffer from arrested development and failure to launch. But you knew this already.

>>12539902
No problem champ. Go get em.

>>12539851

UK is a step up from a literal 3rd world country but if you are really ambitious you should aim for the states.

>>12539907
Not really. I work at a FAANG company and when I read your posts this is what it actually screams at:

>My loser company can't afford to fund researchers training new students on our tools
or more pertinently:
>My loser company can't afford high salaries to employ graduates from top universities

Plus an extremely thin veil of insecurity. I'm telling you this because we're anonymous here, but I hope you don't post like this on LinkedIn where people are too polite to point this out to you.

>>12539946
No it isn't, he will live in an overpriced ghetto with all the other third worlders while paying exhorbitant taxes to keep funding welfare for white boomer cunts

>>12539946
Isn't Brexit gonna make things better though?

>>12539980
fucking larpers

you don’t work at fagman and you don’t do meaningful work nigger.

imagine hiding behind the legacy of a giant conglomerate company. a legacy you had absolutely nothing to do with not even a drop in a buckets worth of contribution.

i cant possibly imagine

i would rather do meaningful work at small company or start up than be an identityless expendable drone at a legacy company

>>12539992
No, they already got parliament to increase the third world scarce skills qoutas.

The problem with mass immigration as a subsidy is that you have to keep doing it to avoid a crash. UK is a great place for business owners right now, but one of the worst places for young workers. Aim for the United States, Biden has already hinted that he won't reverse most of Trump's changes on visas.

>>12540009
Aww man. Is there a reason why they're making UK so unattractive for international students?

>>12539995
Yes Anon you are very special for being able to read API documentation and doing tutorials. Your work is so meaningful, congrats Anon! I can't wait to see you at ICML next year :)

>>12540024
No there is no one reason. Companies and employers want to keep the labour pool large so they can keep offering abysmal salaries and increase dividends (plus their own bonuses). Industry lobbyists are paid by employers to get MPs to issue more visas. Politicians are paid to increase visas and give fake speeches. Journalists are paid to call economists racist when they point out the system is a disproportionate burden on young taxpayers.

The same system is found in every country, the balance in the UK has just been tipped to the extreme ever since the Thacter era. Many industries in the UK have gone beyond the point of return would completely collapse if they tried to stop immigration or even to just slow it down in some sectors so wages can begin to recover.

There is no reason for you to go to the sinking ship that is the UK if you have to option of going to the US.

>>12540059
Thank you for the advice. I will have to make big changes to my plans

>>12540077
What the fuck Anon, don't change your life plan based off of what you read on the internet.

>>12540083
But it does not seem like that anon is lying to me

>>12539995
i'm not even the anon you were originally replying to nigger.

funny you called him insecure but yet here you are projecting like the insecure larping faggot that you are

hilarious

>>12540099 was meant for (you) >>12539980 sweaty

What degree is better for bachelor if I want to do math. statistics for masters either way, math or math. statistics?

>>12540099
>>12540103
No, you are the same drunk Anon. It's ok Anon I'm sure all the "meaningful" you do will be reflected in your salary and IPO one day :)

>>12539858
Yeah but it’s absurdly hard to get into in the UK, apparently.

>>12540087
I'm that same Anon, I wasn't lying to you, but don't make big decisions based off of what you read on 4chan.

New thread
>>12540144
New thread
>>12540144
New thread
>>12540144

What should I study if I wanted to work in Aus?
t. euroid

>>12540131
Ok anon thanks. I was looking to get employment in the UK after doing a postgrad there. But that seems improbable

>>12537707
Community college then university is a sure way to save some cash. but:
1) Line up the university and get them to sign in blood that the credits really transfer AND work towards your degree.
2) You'll miss out on a lot of networking. If you're not an extrovert, coming in half-way might be hard to make the same sort of social circles that freshman had. If you get an apartment by yourself and have no friends in town, it's not the same social situation as freshman in a dorm.
3) There's a reason community colleges aren't treated the same as university. You're going to have to teach yourself or get on top of the shit you need to know before you start uni classes. It'll hit you like a brick.
4) The year off and age don't matter at all. Nobody gives a damn.


If there's no question of passing the courses, go for the ComSci (and try and specialize early). Otherwise, accept the blue-collar role in IT.

>>12539875
>You’re a programmer so I assume you’re self taught in a lot of things like most programmers are.
wtf is this nonsense? self-taught coders are fucking terrible. They can make their own shit work, but it's often a dumpster fire of half-mad shit that no one else can touch.

More like finance career general.

I went to a PhD program because I couldn't give a shit about the types of job discussed here (code monkey, consultant, patent attorney, accountant, hedge fund person, whatever; you get the picture). Of course, a lot of those are also very competitive and I probably wasn't getting them in the first place. Meanwhile, research was always what really interested me and I got a place at a good university with an advisor who wasn't the biggest name but was very pleasant to work with.

A few years later, my advisor was forced to leave and then corona happened. My research has been fucked to hell, every plan I had was scrapped and I'll be lucky to scrape together a PhD but it won't have much "extra" that would make me stand out later. So I think an academic career is not an option and in any case it's become apparent to me that the end game is basically to become an administrator, these responsibilities taking more and more time the further you go and I don't want that.

So then I'm looking at the same jobs as I was straight out of undergrad, equally disinterested in them but now my CV is what you'd expect from a once-aspiring academic who sucks. I'm thinking I'll invest in rope, there isn't really anything I want to do and every option seems bad.

I also don't really need advice but just wanted to vent.

>>12532510
fuck econ, go for geotechnics

>>12539436
Do you have any sort of demonstrated programming background, or at least some entry level computer science classes completed?

If you have two internships completed, I highly doubt you're being filtered for your grades. Usually for hiring post-bachelors students, a kid with 2 summers of intern experience is the best they can possibly hope for.

It seems far more likely to me that they don't think your skills would be valuable in an applied sense. In academia it's different, especially when you're still learning. But in industry they need people who have the ability to not only conceptualize things, but to implement them. In the case of data science that comes down to being reasonably competent at coding. You don't need to be an expert; the average computer science minor at a top-50 school is gonna teach you enough. But if you're applying to these jobs, you're competing against TONS of people (supply is way outpacing demand in data science) and companies would rather their new hires be fully competent at coding.

I'd be willing to bed that COVID is negatively impacting your situation as well. A friend of mine who graduated last April wasn't able to get a single interview for over 6 months, and finally got a second interview with a job offer on month 7. Things are a lot better now than they were a few months ago, but companies are still very cautious about hiring.

>>12539638
>I guess the first obvious question is to establish how low is the "very low" we're talking about?
My cumulative GPA is a 3.0 flat, however my GPA in the last 2 years is 3.5. In major it's 3.9 for the last 2 years. I have good recommendations from well connected profs whose courses I've had high performances in. GRE is 329.
Really the crux is that I'm just not a standout candidate for the kinds of programs I want to get into (top 25 stat or data science MS). Maybe I just need to lower my standards.

>Otherwise there are easier pathways into data science.
The path to high tier companies is recruiting, and I get stalled everytime regarding my low GPA.
>Are you putting your grade on your CV?
Of course not and I avoid the subject like the plague, it comes up everytime though. I have great interview answers but at the end of the day I'm getting beat out by a dude that has a 4.0. The point is it would be hard to get an offer even if I had a good GPA, having a bad one makes that much harder. Think about it from the hiring manager's perspective, he has to actively justify choosing someone with a subpar GPA over someone with a near perfect GPA. What would make the difference? A killer interview? Great skillset? Let's be realistic, out the multiple perfect GPA candidates a handful of them will have both.

>>12539513
>These include certain STEM degrees
maybe biology at a shit tier university
but even the softest stemfags at russel groups make enough to pay back a batchelors equivalent