/sci/ - Science & Math

Why crawler instead for trains?

ksp bros plz help
I'm supposed to take 4 kerbals to suborbit. So stacked 2 crew capsules (each one carries 2 people). It keeps flipping during reentry, how to prevent this?

>>12512671
center of mass should be below center of lift

Do it for him

>>12512671
try connecting two nose-to-nose and flipping the tops control point

And for her as well

>>12512671
uh do you need to leave the atmosphere?
I recommend rocket planes
use junos to get it flying and then an SRB to put it suborbital

>terraforming Neptune
>first, remove the atmosphere
>then, build the rest of the fucking planet

>>12512677
>TerraformedMars_Small.jpg
>>12512681
>TerraformedVenus_Small.jpg
What are these, pictures for moderately-sized ants?
>>12512692
>step one: remove the atmosphere
>step two: colonize the planet
Now what's so hard about that?

>>12512656
Gotta use all of the parts of the shuttle program, it is cheaper after all.

>>12512697
>remove the atmosphere on Neptune
>find ancient ruined cities

>>12512646
Wtf Expansebros....did we get too cocky...

>>12512697
The original images, which I stole from Wikipedia, are over the file size limit hence the "Small" suffix.
>>12512705
Isn't the 'surface' of Neptune at a high enough pressure to stabilise diamonds? I doubt anyone could be building cities down there, still a rad idea.

>>12512711
I kinda figured considering they're already over 8kx8k and almost 3mb each.

>>12512656
Soil stability in Florida not good for heavy duty rails?

>>12512729
what's soil stability?
t. floridian

>>12512671
Add fins to the nose of the capsule thing, add a fuel tank for ballast to the base of the capsule thing, add bigger fins to the ass of the launch vehicle to prevent flipping during launch, and you're golden
>it adds mass!
Yes, so add an extra booster or two, nbd

>>12512709
I can't find definitive proof in a cursory search, but I am 110% sure Daniel Abraham is a (((fellow white))).

>>12512729
Turns out potholes in a gravel bed are easier to fix than a flipped rail car+rocket.

>>12512646
Hypothetically will SLS ever stop being hypothetical?

>>12512731
lol, I'll take that as "you guessed right, nigga"
The real question is, why did they build a massive fuckoff crawler when they could have used a far smaller and cheaper like video related?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6fRkIGELkk&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=181josh
I ask the question, but we all know the answer in our hearts.

>>12512744
In theory, the orange tank that has been on the test stand for the last year will fly Artemis 1

>>12512749
well in the 50s and 60s when they were doing the space program, self propelled modular transporters hadn't been invented yet, so they built a couple of huge fuckoff crawlers
so now they have to keep using them or the crawler unions will call their congressmen

>>12512739
reminder that hitler believe that nuclear physics was a "jew science" and actively discouraged any research into the field. If I had a time machine I would have brought back my "chart of the radionuclides" textbook with me and given it to Teddy Roosevelt. I'm 100% sure that guy would have a nuclear pile generating neutron flux within a year and breeder reactors producing fuels for power station reactors within his presidential term. Nuclear bombs before the end of WW1 would be likely.

>>12512744
Hypothetically, maybe.

>>12512761
It's strange on one hand but on the other hand I would absolutely expect eggheads to come up with the maximally expensive, large, complex solution to a problem that could be solved by attaching a truck to a big trailer with a lot of wheels.

>>12512767
>US just nukes the Kaiser to end the war
>US adopts a "REALLY big stick policy" and makes rest of the Americas fall in line
>Japan still does Pearl Harbor because refuse to change plans
>US has had two extra decades of nuclear and rocket experience
>hundreds of SLAMs instantly bolting across the Pacific
>war is actually over before Christmas
Seriously though I doubt nuclear bombs would be developed until the mid/late twenties due both to lack of necessity and lack of capability compared to what the US had during WWII. Even then there was a lot of collaboration with the British and it still took four years.
Also I'm pretty sure Hitler only started calling nuclear physics jewish after they actually went to war with America since he knew they wouldn't be able to catch up in that field so he just took the opportunity to cut his losses and demonize the enemy more.

>>12512781
You'd be best off if you caught Hitler before he had a chance to form an opinion, and told him that the jews were going to recognize the power of nuclear energy and do everything they could to prevent others from developing it, including subterfuge and reverse psychology tactics. Convince him that the reason he believed nuclear was a jew science was because that's what the jews wanted him to think, in order to hamstring himself.

>>12512737
thanku anon this worked
ballast exploded when landing haha but all crew safe

What's the best way to redpill someone on spaceflight?

>>12512870
ask them if they want to see a skyscraper explode and then show them SN8

>>12512568
A rotating space colony can have any gravity it want, any biome it want.
You can have a Desert and high mountain one colony away. And linking colony together is nowhere difficult.
Living in an underground biome on mars force you to have Mars like gravity.
You only gain with the hypothetical size of the dome.

No one is going to enforce where you live, but living in space colony will be cheaper and more accessible at first than turning Mars into a factory capable of churning every component needed to live there.

And in the long term Mars is only good to strip mine for better space habitat.

space colony gay
planet bros rise up

>>12512884
Yeah, the people I talk to get more interested when they learn how fucking huge Starship is. I just refer to it as “that giant/huge rocket”

>>12512749
>>12512761
Is that modular transporter actually carrying the same mass as the crawler?
Don't the crawler have other functionality that help stability or something?

>>12512933

>>12512884
>>12512944
I tried to wow them with its size. Asked my IRL friend how tall does he think starship is. He said like idk, 200-300 meters? At that point, I just gave up.

>>12512966
SPMT have all the functionalities of the NASA crawlers except that they use tires instead of treads
I'm not sure if SPMT can handle loose surface as well as the crawlers
if it can't handle the weight you just use more of them

>>12512969
Maybe bust out the heavy normie artillery and say it’s like a ship from Star Wars. Instead of some shitty capsule it’s an actual starship like the millennium falcon

I just can't fathom how anyone can't get excited by Starship and SN8? I used to think Elon Musk was a meme and SpaceX a whatever company till Falcon Heavy convinced me. Then the live streams and /sfg/ threads really convinced me of how amazing this stuff is.

>>12513000
checked
They don't watch sci-fi bro, they have no clue what-so-ever what a millenium falcon is.

>>12513014
not everyone is curious
decadence is the norm

>>12513027
Star Wars is space fantasy, not sci fi

>>12513030
In some ways I think we are in the era sociologists call (in reference to the final era of the Soviet Union) 'Hypernormalisation'. Most people don't have a sense of the future, even beyond themselves and they react with tribalistic disdain to anyone who tries to conceive of an optimistic future.

>>12513033
You get my point...

>>12513033
Space Opera, but that'd be nitpicking.

>>12513040
another word for the same thing

>>12513042
No, it's a very specific genre.

>>12513036
Dumb, most people never had the sense for future. Only hand have it in all time period.

>>12513044
shut up

>>12513047
Because you don't like being corrected? Get the fuck off the internet and go full caveman if that's the case.

>>12513051
go back to /tv/ if you want to argue about stupid shit that isn't spaceflight

>>12513046
I mean not just a general sense of the future such as a society wide, but also many live their lives without general aspirations and life goals.

>>12513054
It's more a /lit/ thing actually, but I don't use either board.

>>12513040
>>12513044
>>12513051
Based correctanon

>>12513042
>>12513047
>>12513054
Cringe seetheanon

>>12513057
People are overworked, overstimulated, and underpaid. The death of the hobbyist is the death of enthusiasm. Work 25% more hours than your grandparents for 2/3 the inflation adjusted wage? Welp, looks like you can't afford to be enthusiastic about anything. Oh, you're mentally exhausted from being overstimulated as well? Looks like >insert online streaming platform here< is just the thing for you. Aye, but the guys on reddit told me that the US median household income has only dropped $5000 since 1970 when adjusted for inflation, but they didn't mention that female participation in the labor force in 1970 was 43% while in 2019 it was 57%. For men it was 79% in 1970 and was 69% in 2019.

tl;dr shit's fucked and people don't have enough time, energy, or money to care about things that require them to think anymore

>>12513014
Falcon Heavy is a mediocre rocket though.

>>12512854
if nothing explodes on landing you're missing the soul of the game

>>12512968
>O'Niel did not build a single piece of real space hardware
dreamers can dream all they want, but doers do.

>>12513099
based based/cringe anon

>>12513120
No it's not, it's got the best launch economics per payload mass of any launch vehicle currently operational. The only reason FH was delayed and has not flown often is ironically because the Falcon 9 ate most of its lunch. Originally FH was meant to launch up to like 30 tons to LEO and ~10 tons to GEO, but Falcon 9 ended up improving to the point that it's close to achieving those numbers on its own. Likewise, FH grew to be a monster in the current commercial launch market.
If it weren't for the political shitstorm it would cause, FH could easily serve as the defacto SHLV of a new Moon program. Literally just two launches of Falcon Heavy put up as much payload mass as the Saturn V, and baselining three launches would let you design missions significantly more capable than Apollo, for just ~$400 million per mission.
>it would be hard to manrate
Nah, SLS is harder from a technical standpoint to get to human launch reliability, but NASA pushes the paperwork through. FH isn't getting manrated because it would cost money that SpaceX doesn't want to bother spending.
>but orbital assembly!
Apollo had to do it during every mission, twice. It's not a big deal.

FH is a fucking great rocket which unfortunately doesn't have much to do and is going to be made irrelevant completely by SpaceX's own next gen rocket.

if orion drive is so game changing, why wont chinise work on it?
its not like they are concerned about pollution or international treaties

seriously, once i learned about orion drive concept, i have feeling that all rockets we have are just toys. orion drive can potentially get ships of star wars proportions into orbit.

will it really happen or its just a meme?

>>12513164
Does it matter either way? Starship is coming.

>>12513169
this window is really cool

>>12512767
Were at a point that so much has been rewriten about hitler&nazi germany that i just have decided to ignore everything people claim.
Somehow i dont think that a half jewish,gay,schizophrenic,pedophile,with only one testicle, drug addicted,vegetarian furry,valor stealing, non german adolf hilter could somehow trick the entire world in to world war...
Something doesn't add up.

>>12513164
Massive scam setup by oldspace&US gov politicians wanting to steal more tax money.
These company is only a couple years old and has never put anything in space but they somehow get a massive contract to put new modules on the ISS, a station that will probably be decommissioned long before they ever finish their first module.

>>12512646
Reposting because its actually morning but here
https://www.uahirise.org/results.php?keyword=starship&longitudes=&lon_beg=&lon_end=&latitudes=&lat_beg=&lat_end=&solar_all=true&solar_spring=false&solar_summer=false&solar_fall=false&solar_winter=false&solar_equinox=false&solar_equinox_dist=5&solar_solstice=false&solar_solstice_dist=5&solar_beg=&solar_end=&image_all=true&image_anaglyphs=false&image_dtm=false&image_caption=false&order=WP.release_date&science_theme=
If you're wondering what the fuck that scary long link is, its a search result on the HiRISE (mars imager) website for all images tagged with "starship" and it pretty much shows all the landing sites for starship, although I think each landing site has 2 images so as to allow SpaceX to create more in-depth models. There are 9 different landing sites here in total. You can click on the images to get more detailed information as well as to get colorized versions.

>>12513128
>Elon did not build a single piece of real space hardware
He was just really lucky to gain fucktons of money and subsidies to give to engineers not bound by congressional red tape.
If O'neill was that lucky we would have reusable rocket

>>12513237
Hitler was the real time traveler all along

When is the SN9 test?

>>12513293
Elon built real space hardware, this is undeniable
O'Neill didn't build shit

>>12513297
i was wondering, how much can we said that elon build and how much is his engineers?
he clearly has some expretise, but can we say that he created something?

>>12513296
28th they'll have to burn the closure moving the big crane away at least. They might just wait until after new year.

>>12513309
i wonder if that deboooonking sceptic from youtube will make another video after this

>>12512968
God damn I hate pseudo ints. O'Neill was such a retard. All he did was come out and say "I crunched the numbers and it turns out it's super cheap to build your own rotating colonies lmao" and the kids lapped it up. I'm fine with O'Neill faggots huffing their own farts all they want, they just need to know how absolutely useless they are to the space colonization conversation.

>>12513311
That CSS faggot? he's almost as clueless about spaceflight as thunderf00t

>>12513315
i dont know aboout oneil cilinders, but in long term space colonies, either artificial or hollowed asteroids are superior over mars in my ways

mars:
- 0.4g, potentially fuicks up your body
- radiation, need to hide underground or in shielded habitats
- need to extert fuel to go to orbit
- dust everywhere, fucks up equipment
- there are some mineral resources, ice for water, atmosphere for fue production

asteroids:
- no need to use fuel to go into orbit
- can spin to provide useful 1g gravity
- every possible mineral resource you can think of
- need same radiation shielding as mars.

overally, asteroids can provide much more controlled enviroment.

i am not against going to mars, but my thoughts are about long term fate of space civilization. unless we find earth like panets, asteroids are way to go.

>>12513164
the stupid thing about axiom is even if launch costs were through the floor, it would take them 6 fucking years to get the first module launched. the dude ran the space station, the fuck does he know about keeping within budget and setting ambitious timelines?

>>12512968
>autistic partical physicist who wanted to justify his life work on mass drivers
Or you could just build habitat next to the resources instead of firing them away

>>12513327
.. continued - from the other hand, if there is prohblem with space colony, othe rone can be millions kilometers away. and if one mars city is fucked, people can evacuate to othe rmuch more easily. space colonies seem more "fragile" than some mars settlement. they would be probbaly exposed to meteorites bit more because mars has atmosphere. but this 1/100 eaths atmosphere is probably not much help against most meteorites.

>>12513159
The Orion is overrated and a memetic trap.
It's like propaganda, good and simple in appearance, wrong and complex behind the scenes and you can't get rid of it because simpletons think it's awesome.

This is a drive that cannot afford to fail even once because its failures mode are all horrible.
you simply cannot use it to take off if it fly over anything of importance,
you cannot afford to lose prototypes during take-off and landing one will require minor miracle,
all the complexity you believe to have escaped you'll get it trying to produce and use the finely shaped bombs, like trying to build a watch using only a big hammer.
you cannot use it in any important orbit because its engine will generate debris,
it can hardly be throttled for fine maneuver or used near anything else,
it cannot be built with much redundancy because its starting mass and shape are big,
the only fuel it can use require a long supply chain, so it will be from Earth.

If you want a better meme, look up the Sea Dragon. It have less problem.

>>12513327
>can spin to provide useful 1g gravity
And then they promptly fly apart because most of them aren't solid bricks and have nothing to keep them together other than their own tiny gravity.
I suppose if you could hollow them out enough you could put a rotating hab inside. Be sure to keep it balanced though!

>>12513349
yeah, i think you are right about asteroid faing apart. at least some of them. but still, you could build oneil cilinder. or maybe when we are advanced eniugh to build such megastructures, we will discover some magica way to generate artificial gravity without spinning?

... so what was the point of building a whole new complex for the SLS static fire?
Why did NASA not just do the whole “wet dress rehearsal” on pad 39-B?
It’s not like the rocket would actually take off without the SRBs.

>>12513345
how about just using it to get large amount of exuipment int orbit and nothing else? no landing, nio maneuvers (except circularization).

>>12513349
Maybe you could break them down into ultrastrong metamaterials to build a big gay cylinder, but I personally dont give a shit about what's possible hundreds of years after I'm dead. I care about what's just barely possible now, and that's colonizing the moon or mars

>>12513357

The whole point of SLS is to generate and keep jobs and to financialy "support" companies and associated people. Streamlining development defeats the purpose of the whole program.

>>12513345
Multiple tubes for launching the pellets is fine, ample redundancy of everything on the spaceship side.

The pulse units themselves cannot magically explode wrong, worse case is a misfire with a lower yield
They don’t need to be “finely precisely” shaped, it’s a EFP made from plutonium and plastic, not some magic engineering.

There’s no debris, only a cloud of plasma over escape velocity
You have huge redundancy because you are launching a vehicle with 50,000+ isp and unlimited thrust

>>12513345
>powerful propulsion systems are destructive
Woah woah stop right there this can't be!

Now I suggest you take li-ion battery damage and quickly shove it in your ass dreaming of the future when one with that size can hold power for entire cities.

For a second there I thought he was replying to the "can a nigger?" version of the image.

>>12513367
I was thinking more like a small cylinder (like maybe 50m? not an Oneill monster) that you park next to an asteroid as living quarters or something. They still have the advantage of being a lot of them, and they're full of resources. Maybe dig a tunnel around it 20m deep and put a trolley train inside to get parital G.

>>12513387
someone pls paste nigger version inot a screen lol

>>12513390
Why would you bother dicking around on an asteroid when the moon weighs more than every asteroid in the solar system combined ?

>>12513315
And all Elon did is pay engineers to make rockets and say "it's all thanks to me, I'm totally colonizing Mars".
To me the pseudo ints are the Mars-colony fanboy who act like it's the far west in space even if they claim otherwise.

O'neill is only relevant as a naming convention for a design. Nothing more, nothing less.
That theses designs have more advantage than a surface colony down a gravitational hole is worth debating.

I don't support the hollowed asteroid idea myself >>12513327 for the given reason >>12513349 that they aren't structurally strong. You simply can't improvise structural integrity.

>>12513301
>he clearly has some expretise, but can we say that he created something?
Yes, but it doesn't matter either way. Elon is clearly the one steering the ship and he's doing a fucking amazing job of it. Just compare SpaceX to BO; the latter has effectively infinite budget and is two years older than SpaceX. Has what, 20-ish flights in total? All of them suborbital. Meanwhile SpaceX's own engine tech alone completely BTFOs all other aerospace companies/programs ever, even in history. SpaceX's rockets are the best in the world, not even memeing (they're the cheapest and can hit all the same orbits, ergo they're the best). SpaceX's private program is blowing the absolute fuck out of all of China, a nation of a billion insects, and India, a nation of a billion poos. Current SpaceX black magic engine turbopump hex technology is even more arcane than the Soviet ORSC engines from the 60's and 70's, while being literally orders of magnitude cheaper to build.

>>12513345

show me some memes of niggers holding back spaceflight pls

>>12513434

>>12513036
>disdain to anyone who tries to conceive of an optimistic future
Explains why positive future sci-fi is on it's way out. Even Star Trek got its optimistic outlook grinded down an replaced with either grim drama or absurdist humor

>>12513345
>you cannot use it in any important orbit because its engine will generate debris
Not really, if the pusher plate erodes at all it will do so in the form of an ultra thin layer of ablated iron plasma which would rush away at dozens of km/s. The bombs themselves get transmuted into plasma expanding at dozens/hundreds of km/s, which is why the drive is so efficient in the first place. Any and all of the debris produced by using the drive is also inherently moving much faster than escape velocity of both any planets you're orbiting and the Sun itself.
>it can hardly be throttled for fine maneuver or used near anything else,
The Orion drive system has never been proposed as a 100% catch-all propulsion system you'd use for spacecraft. Instead it's sort of like a main cruise engine; it gives you large delta V budgets with a burn impulse resolution accuracy of a few dozen meters per second. Any Orion propelled vehicle would have a secondary propulsion system meant for fine adjustments which would only need to have a total delta V of maybe a single km/s. This system could be chemical rockets or nuclear thermal rockets but in either case it would offer a much more accurate burn-finalization than the Orion drive itself. If you really wanted to only use high Isp solutions though, you're just use a pulsed microfission engine for your fine control, which works basically like an Orion drive except the "bombs" are small pellets of high enriched fission fuel that get crushed by electromagnets and zapped with neutron beams in the thrust chamber, and the engine runs at ~60 Hz and a few kN thrust instead of 1 or 2 Hz and MN thrust.

>>12513447
i loved early arthur clark novels, even if he clearly was in bed with new world order guys (every his vision of future had world goverment, luciferian themes ins pace odyssey etc).

I want to become darth vader, i think that would be so cool :)

>>12513354
>maybe when we are advanced eniugh to build such megastructures, we will discover some magica way to generate artificial gravity without spinning?
No way to do that inside of understood physics

>>12513120
I wasn't wowed by its technical specifications (besides the dual landing of its boosters), just the imagery of it.

>>12513405
Looks like 13 launches of the new shepherd
God knows why they are still bothering to do it, it’s not like it actually provides any useful data for them...

It’s aerodynamically nothing like the NG, different engines, not built to the margins needed for orbital launches, and they won’t be landing their hydrogen upper stage....

Really makes you think

what is a pourpose of this thing?

>>12513550
i mean this

>>12513416
Did the engine the sea dragon use ever get a name?
That engine is ridiculously huge.

>>12513553
Sat killing.

>>12513555
I don't think they ever got that far.

Why hasn't anyone ever made a hybrid rocket where the solid fuel is oxygen ice?

>>12513558
cant youy just shot them with missle, why spaceplane?

>>12513364
Still not worth using for take-off which was its only/main selling point (and the main/only way to get it up there at all). You don't want it to be expandable and it can't land.

It can be used more safely in interplanetary space but mostly once you are safely away from important stuff/orbit and the only (early) source of pulse unit will be Earth.
By the time we need interstellar travel we are likely to have found much better design.

There's a big difference between
- Slowly detonating one nuke-pulse with plenty time to fix any problem and recalibrate.
and
- Continuous nuke-pulses or you'll crash with a full load of nuclear bomb.

>>12513377
The system to get it past the pusher plate is far more important and difficult than just making a catapult and a trap door. You don't want it to fail or get stuck in any position you are not aware off or give erroneous feedback. Since it have to be lined up you can hardly just double it.

The nuclear pellets will need to be finely shaped because they are supposed to produce a directional explosion and not leave behind debris. Directional explosion will require the pulse unit to be strong enough to shape the explosion, this is also why other pulse candidate prefer to have unit/pellet explode in a shield that contain the explosion better.

You'll prefer to be able to prevent/fix accidental rotations, correcting the exact positions/attitude because the ship shouldn't have to leave behind unexploded pulse unit.
Just storing nuclear material knowing you want it to be as small and light as possible is complicated.

All nuclear engines have problems and subtlety, but this one have the memetic hazard of making people believe they can throw their problems away and detonate them behind a safe shield in one SSTO package despite being at least equally harder than every other engines.

> and unlimited thrust
Now you are being silly

>>12513454
See above. Same for cruise. By the time we care we will likely have better candidate.

>>12513416
Much better with sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRMDcC0QvFQ

building ships in orbit when

>>12513570
i want to kick that complaining rostie in the face

>>12513573
today, in ksp

>>12513575
It's from a tv show, anon. You gotta do world building.
Amazing how the writers perfectly captured the modern american woman, though.

>>12513550
>>12513553
It’s primarily a recoverable testbed for prototype space technologies. It’s kind of like the exposure facility on the ISS, but secret.

>>12513581
i mean she is acting ike potential explosion is fault of that ed guy

>>12512767
>have the first functioning nuke in 1917
>fly it into the battlefield with a plane made of wood and cloth

>>12513568
Sounds like you have debilitating mental illness.

>>12513626
This would be the major problem, not only were aircraft much more susceptible to the effects of nuclear weaponry but there'd also be no plane large enough to lift one from the ground. Even assuming that the 1910s-20s scientists could solve everything to do with shaped charges and simultaneous ignition at that time, you'd need simultaneous accelerated leaps forward in aircraft engine design to get a plane with enough payload capacity to lift the bomb, which would probably be significantly heavier than the actual Little Boy and Fat Man were.

>>12513567
It's more like satellite stealing than killing.

>>12513545
makes me think BO is a scam targeting Jeff himself desu

>>12513550
>porpoise
>>12513563
Hybrids suck ass, that's why
And not in a good way

>>12513663
BO at least makes decent engines

>>12513669
Wrong

>>12512681
What about building a huge solar shield?

>>12513669

Engines that either havent flown on an actual rocket or on an expensive, useless suborbital obselete space tourist oriented toy rocket.

>>12513681
Fuck you the BE-7 is cool

>>12513568
>The nuclear pellets will need to be finely shaped because they are supposed to produce a directional explosion and not leave behind debris.
It is impossible for a nuclear pulse unit (either a small pellet or an entire self contained warhead) to leave behind debris, because the fission reaction produces enough xray flux to vaporize any material within a radius about 100x greater than the radius of the actual pulse unit itself. That is to say, if you put anything within a one meter sphere surrounding a 1cm diameter fuel pellet, it will be blasted into superheated vapor by the xrays alone. Since the fuel pellet or warhead is deep inside this radius, NOTHING avoids being vaporized. The only way you can produce any debris at all is if your bomb explodes incorrectly and fizzles, ie it doesn't undergo a nuclear explosion. However, even if one in 100 pellets or bombs fizzles, the subsequent nuclear detonations will either vaporize this debris or accelerate it via the same mechanism that the detonations accelerate the spacecraft, except at a much higher rate owing to their lower mass, and this will yeet this debris free of any body they happen to be orbiting apart from the galaxy itself.

>>12513677
Stupid

>>12513626
>>12513648
Anons, America with nukes in WWI would be doing it the old fashioned way, by having tunnels dug underneath no man's land, dragging the bomb to the end of the tunnel, sealing it, and distributing orders for the men to plug their ears and keep their heads down at 9 am on tuesday when the bomb is scheduled to go off. They used to do this with enormous quantities of chemical explosives too, the capability of being able to accomplish even more destructive power with just one bomb small enough to be carried on a wooden sled by six men would have their generals cackling over scotch and waxing their mustaches feverishly.

>>12513689
I guess, it's only a dual expander cycle though, it's the most efficient of the easy engine cycles.

>>12513568
First of all, solid core ntr is not superior to lox/ch2
Secondly, needing precision machinery to work is a wildly different situation from some meme engines which need an outside source of power and technology that doesn’t exist

These are not real difficulties you are talking about.. they are minor technical challenges that have been overcome long ago

>>12513707
>Stupid
Any better ideas then?
I heard even if we removed all the CO2 from Venus' atmosphere, it would still get 40% more light from the sun compared to Earth.
My second idea is filling Venus' atmosphere with small flying reflective nanobots.

Is fusion just waiting for its own Elon Musk?

>>12513724
You mean a conman?

>>12513725
based

>>12513725
found the jew

>>12513654
>satellite stealing
pretty bad idea, it would be extremely easy to booby trap a sat.
Plus you may not even need it: if you're stealing a sat it will detect it's not in the good attitude/orbit and try to correct with thrusters for example, which would probably fuck up your craft if the sat is in the cargo bay.

>>12513724
Doesn’t work when there is no profit to be made and you have regulatory agencies that can say “no”

>>12513725
dangerously based

>>12513713
As a seasoned BF1 player I can tell you this is exactly how it would go down. That, or they would modify something like the ilya muromets to carry one giant bomb on a suicide drop mission

>>12513730
That's why you put it in the pooper.

>>12513327
Or you could just build Von Braun ring space stations.

>>12513753
It's a suicide mission no matter what, because you couldn't fly out of the way fast enough.

Chinese spysat launched a couple hours ago

>>12513776
What rocket is this? This is beautiful
>>12513770
Kek the plane would turn to ash within seconds of detonation

>>12513729
Found the musk.

>>12513782
Long March 4C
I was going to share another picture of it, but I was captivated by this knockoff VAB at the launch site and had to share.

>>12513801
fuck, I forgot to actually attach it

>>12513798
Since when did the boeing shills enter the thread?

>>12513808
Holy shit

>>12513702
You are just renaming debris into vapor. It will be extremely dangerous for anything around even if it's not millimeter big shrapnel. And I was excluding failure mode like the bomb itself misfiring, something you can't afford even once.
I was also ignoring Earth launch because there's simply too many reasons against.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)#Potential_problems

>>12513718
I don't care about the propellant used, the pic was just to liven up the thread.
>they are minor technical challenges that have been overcome long ago
By that logic NTR was also a minor technical challenge have have been overcome long ago.
The problem is that Orion have far more fundamental limitation than people believe that make it completely unusable for the job it is best suited at and once in orbit it wouldn't be as practical or efficient as other alternatives.

What it is truly good at is looking awesome for the kind of person who judge over superficial appearance or think government are conspiracy.

For the record I was not supporting Sea Dragon either, even if present sliiightly less problem.
Actually reusable chemical rocket will be good enough for our purpose.
Reusable spaceplane would be nice if we can get them to work with the efficiency of airliner.
Going beyond will require proper megastructure (excluding space elevator meme).

>>12513724
Fusion is 20 years ahead as always.

>>12513810
I'm not shilling for the musk nor boeing.

>>12513825
Right, you're shilling for the jews.

>>12512767
Were there any engineering barriers that would make an 1890s nuke impossible?

>>12513832
Keep sucking his dick, anon, just don't complain when your autonomous Tesla car drives you into a wall.
Here, have a lecture:
http://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-cars.html

>>12513839
lmao this is the goofiest shit i've ever read

>>12513834
For a gun type, I think the biggest issue is the industrial scale required to produce sufficient amounts of fissile material.

>>12513839
If only Tesla used open sourced software xdxdxd

>>12513808
>>12513801
is there ANYTHING the chinks won't bootleg?

>>12513834
Is precision machining doable on such a scale before the 20th century? You need tens of thousands of centrifuges
Do they have the dials and sensors needed to monitor a Breeder reactor?

Overall I’d say it’s doable if you knew ahead of time what you are doing

>>12513861
souls

>>12513626
Anon, we're going full on Death Korps of Krieg

>>12513866

>>12513839
Stallman also fucks birds and has built zero rockets

>>12513839
My autonomous tesla drives into blacks, not walls.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/self-driving-car-crash-racial-bias-black-people-study-a8810031.html

>>12513980
well the study was in georgia. ofc you're more likely to run over blacks in georgia. still based though

>>12513980
based

i was thinking. will starship make servicing satellites commercially viable? or refueling them, or even bringing them back to fix them on the ground.

>>12514028
you fucking stop talking shit about my space daddy or else

just landed on Duna, how are your ksp shenanigans going bros?

>>12514036
now fly back

>>12514036
Install RSS+RO and discover the real ksp

>>12514051
does RO allow you to further increase the size of kerbin in proportion to surface gravity?

>>12514043
spess is herd
>>12514051
I kinda want to, but it's a pain in the ass to get working properly

>>12514034
I unironically love daddy musk. Killing niggers (the ones who are usually opposed to spaceflight) is fine.

>>12514036
Encountered a bug where I couldn't transfer fuel between tanker and ship, alt+f12 fuck it I'm done

>>12514063
>he cant do interplanetary return missions
i bet you think this is the mun, anon.

>>12514080
That's a pretty common bug, just unloading the vessel should fix it

>>12514082
Newb, I can get this to land on the surface of Jool.

>>12513861
Morality, ethics, emotions...

Will SN9 make it?

>>12514103
probably not, but hopefully it'll be a similarly spectacular event

>>12514103
well, SN8 pretty much did everything they were trying to do except succesfull engine restart. I'm guessing they adressed whatever issue there was regarding that. So if 9 performs just as well as 8, the only thing that remains to be seen is nailing the landing after the flip. Which, if the engine restart goes fine, should be ok unless a leg snaps or something.

>>12514113
Engine restarted just fine whachu talkin about

>>12514103

It depends on how the fall affected its internals and if there is damage that they couldnt spot that would make it RUD during the flight. If it is 100% then it depends wheter small changes from the SN8 configuration are enough to make it land intact this time.

>>12512750
hypothetically

>>12514113

SN8's problem were fuel/fuel pressure related, not the engines themselves which relit on time and kept functioning untill they literaly ran out of fuel to burn.

>>12514103
I think it will touch down soft, but then tip over and blow

>>12514051
based

>>12514036
I just downgraded back to 1.8.1 so I could download KSRSS and do a quarter scale RSS campaign with Bluedog parts. Fun so far.

jim bridenstine :(

>>12514181
A legend on earth, a mythological man on mars

>>12514181
May be leaving, but will not be forgotten

Could the Plug-in City be an appropriate city for Mars?

>Plug-in-City is a mega-structure with no buildings, just a massive framework into which dwellings in the form of cells or standardised components could be slotted. The machine had taken over and people were the raw material being processed, the difference being that people are meant to enjoy the experience.

>>12514036
still have it installed but haven't played in months because I can't do babby's first dock.

Is for all mankind actually good? All the comments on piracy sites mention nothing but liberal propaganda.

>>12514231
It looked like rocketeer paradise, with Apollo up to 25 and Sea Dragon, but second season will have Moon Shuttle, so I expect lot of screeching in following months.

>>12514218
>Plug-in-City
What in that concept is supposed to be different?
Just building easier to dismantle and move around?

I've googled it, what is liberating for people if they have to live in shittier building so it can be moved with them?

>>12514231
It was bearable until they turned von Braun into an ebil nahtzee caricature with some annoying bitch lecturing him about WW2.

>>12514102
Our civilization is dying and you want the chinks to copy the principles that got us here?

>>12513416
>that engine exhaust

>>12514257
>Haha dude just become bug people to own the Chinese!!!!!
The Soviet Union was ultimately destroyed by its bug people. Trust me, China is going to get bogged in the future

>>12513866
Centrifuges aren't a requirement. There are multiple methods of isotope separation. Gas centrifuges are just one of the more efficient and fastest ways to do it. There are other options, they just take longer.

>>12514257
It's the abandonment of those principles that got us to where we are now. Every time we let someone cheat or lie or steal it degrades us. The US was designed to work on the honor system, and does not work at all without some non-judicial mechanism of behavior enforcement.

>>12514248
>>12514244
Thanks. I'll probably watch it anyway. the visuals seem cool enough.

>>12513648
>Even assuming that the 1910s-20s scientists could solve everything to do with shaped charges and simultaneous ignition
Obviously they wouldn't use an implosion design because it's far too technically complex. A gun type bomb is extremely simple and easy to produce in comparison.

Using a plane isn't a requirement either. You could use an airship or balloon to lift the bomb and use the jet stream to drift it toward the general target area.

>>12514085
It was consistent enough that I said screw it. Now I can't transfer Kerbal between connected parts. I fucking hate this game, its ten years old and still has basic game breaking bullshit all over it.

>>12513770
Then just use a delayed action fuze. It doesn't NEED to detonate in the air or impact with the ground. Seal the bomb in a shell and just parachute it to the ground. Even if the enemy finds the bomb, they wouldn't want to go near a UXO, let alone attempt to open and disarm it.

>>12514247
I suppose it depends on what society would emerge on Mars, removed from Earth.

>>12513818
retard

>>12513852
it looks like some real Stallman autism

>>12514272
Just unselect all your tanks and then reselect the ones you need. It happens all the time but you don't even need to reload or switch ships.

That said I agree, KSP is a technical nightmare and 1.11 seems buggier than ever.

>>12514029
it's already viable with Falcon 9
see: NG MEV

>>12514272
Did you you turn off fuel crossfeed on your docking ports? If you do it in the VAB you can't ever turn it back on.

>>12514036
It's been almost 6 years and I still can't unland from purple.

>>12513555
F-1XXXL

>>12514319
There's a difference between viable in terms of technology and viable in terms of cost. With an expendable F9 upper stage and a reused crew dragon to carry engineers/supplies you'd probably be looking at minimum $20m in cost for SpaceX, not accounting for the end user cost (or the cost of the booster itself). At that point you may as well just build a new satellite most of the time. If Starship hits its cost goals you can send up a much bigger team with many more supplies (Eva suits, manipulator arms, etc) for <$2m. They could even send up a tanker if needed and fly around repairing a bunch of sats in one go.

>>12513724
There's no actual market or government interest in propping up a company willing to do it. It has to be in full hobby mode until the reactor is built. It also involves new science - rocketry doesn't.

>>12514103
yes, ignore the doomposters

>>12514352
these satellites are worth billions to the customer
it is viable

>>12513866
The real question is can we pull off 1800's manned orbital flight.

>>12514029
No satellites are built like this. Starship however will make it possible to use conventional and much cheaper materials aka bruteforcing because of its lift capabilities. I don't think a billion dollar commsats will be the standard practice a decade after it goes into operation.

>>12514366
If we're talking about government sats then sure, for commercial ones I doubt that there are any that are physically "worth" billions. Starlink is technically potentially "worth" $100B but the actual satellites themselves are pennies.

If we're talking about classified spy sats or something then all of a sudden you need a trained team who would also be trained on flying Crew Dragon. Again it's definitely technically feasible but I doubt anyone would actually be willing to do it given the training, R&D and inherent risk in that sort of mission. It's a lot easier to justify when you can send up 100+ tons of manpower and hardware to get the task done at a fraction of the price.

>>12514367
mechanical computer TSTO wooden rocket. What would the fuel be?

>>12514377
more years of service, immediately, without needing to wait while build a new sat
billions

>>12514378
Ammonia + ???

>>12514378
Whale-blubber

>>12514378
Gun cotton

>>12514378
Lots of stages composed of dynamite. A stage packed with it would blow up, pushing a shock absorber and falling off to expose the next stage

>>12514391
Dynamite Orion. I dig it.

>>12514391
A completely conventional Orion drive?

>>12514391
Not enough isp.

>>12514103
While everybody else will be counting the last seconds until the New Year, SpaceX will be counting the last seconds until the second flight of their Starship.

>>12513818
>You are just renaming debris into vapor. It will be extremely dangerous for anything around
How the fuck do you think Orion gets its thrust? Magic? It's designed to take the very short duration, high temperature pulse of plasma/vapor shock front and transfer it into a long stroke length force transfer.
Like I said, if one bomb misfires (fizzles) the next bomb sweeps the debris off into interstellar space. It's not a problem.
You'll also notice that not once did I mention using Orion to launch from Earth, which in my opinion is dumb not because it wouldn't work but because the real advantage of Orion is its massive delta V budget, and its high thrust is just a bonus. Wasting ~9 km/s on climbing out of Earth's gravity well is just not worth it when otherwise you could carry an extra 250 tons of payload to Saturn in 6 months.

>>12514404
Hmmm what existed back then besides nitroglycerin? Did they have the ability to separate oxygen from air and store it? Could nitroglycerin he used as a fuel?

https://twitter.com/brendan2908/status/1342967357006729216/photo/1

>>12514412
well the benefit of using Orion to climb out of Earth's gravity well is that you can use Orion to lift itself

>>12514415
Why has so little been done for SN13 & SN14 compared to SN15?

>>12514414
nitroglycerin is too unstable. For fuel alcohol or similar I guess, the oxidizer is interesting. Hydrogen peroxide?

>>12514420
SN9-14 all are no more than minor changes, per Elon SN15 is where the major changes happen. Probably don't need to continue on the pre-SN15 designs if SN9/SN10 can land and be reused for testing.

>>12514082
Ike? Can't be Tylo, not with that engine. What else is grey, Dres?

>>12514289
>what society would emerge on Mars, removed from Earth.
I'll never understand the new frontier meme.
Unlike America it will be impossible to live on Mars without constant help from Earth for centuries and even if it get self-sufficient it will be greatly indebted to Earth and the corporation who brought the factories, politically it will have to be deeply integrated into a system-wide UN to keep it democratic and likely incapable of closing border to immigration/emigration or any form of secession.

I'm not saying the culture will not have its own specificity with unique martian mentality but it will not be removed politically or culturally from Earth, Moon or Belt.
Whatever political landscape happen there will be the result of decision made on Earth.

>>12514420
SN15 allegedly has "big upgrades" so if they get all the data they need fro the <15 SNs they may just skip to 15. Although knowing SpaceX they'd probably put together 13 and 14 anyway, so maybe it's indicative of the welding team being the bottleneck.

>>12514355
>There's no actual market or government interest in propping up a company willing to do it
Why? Isn't that much free energy basically a civilization autowin button?

>>12514433
>Earth governments are eternal and there will be no disturbances whatsoever - they will exert total and perfect control over places far beyond their immediate reach
Kung-flu from ching chong wing wong playing in a lab with bats nearly wiped out the world economy because it's a slightly worse cold, its effects will be felt for the next decade. Your scenario is literally impossible in this reality.

>>12514029
Starship is only half the battle. You need either a grabber arm or hardsuits with integrated propulsion for extended EVAs. For all its flaws the Space Shuttle with Canadarm and MMU suits was tailor made for this mission, so we'd see a lot of similar features on a satellite repair Starship.

>>12514433
>it will be greatly indebted to Earth and the corporation who brought the factories
That doesn't really mean much if they're self-sufficient and decide they want to be independent. If anything, efforts to recover such a debt would likely exacerbate any potential tensions, making independence more popular. I do sorta agree with you otherwise.

>>12514082
That's a lot of monopropellant

>>12514420
The sheet only shows parts that have been spotted on site, so a lot could be finished already but not spotted yet

>>12514222
If you can't dock it's because you aren't designing your modules with their RCS vectors in the right spots. I recommend launching two tugs with 8 RCS pods total, arranges in 4x symmetry an equal distance above and below the center of mass of your tugs. Launch both tugs at once and after they separate they'll still be really close, and you can screw around with translating and rotating your vehicles and dock a few times for practice. Also I recommend your tugs be pretty beefy, so that they aren't as touchy to control. Also also, caps lock turns on fine RCS control.

>>12514412
You are the one who don't get it.
Nuclear bomb don't conveniently become harmless or vaporize debris just because you think it's would be convenient. Every description of the concept concede that it is deadly to be around it even in space.
Orion's deltaV budget is not really impressive, plenty of other design do better while being more practical and actually likely to be built first.

The only true advantage of Orion was incredibly heavy launch and if since it will never do that for obvious reason there's very little reason to even develop that dead-end technology over another.

>>12514440
It's not free

>>12514453
Your ESL chinglish and damage-control narrative that favors the Chinese perspective are painfully obvious. Get the fuck off this website.

>>12513938
>Stallman also fucks birds and has built zero rockets
1. It's the bird who fucked him
2. He built a compiler (GCC), a text editor (Emacs) and other programs
Has Musk built a rocket by himself? He surely has made PayPal but has he built a rocket?

>>12514453
>IESLB
I cachinnate vociferously.

>>12514443
If Earth governments failed, so would a Mars colony on constant life-support. If this slightly worse flue happened on a Martian colony you would have far more death as it can't put as many people under artificial respiration, it wouldn't be able to afford enough free (pressurize) space to maintain social distanciation.
If it is lucky there won't be enough people in the first place to keep the virus alive.

>>12514445
It will realistically take century before they are self-sufficient and if its industries belong to the Emperor-CEO of Earth everything what get built there will be decided/approved by Earth.
At least the chance they have at independence is that Mars resources are only good to use in-situ. No plutonium trade route.

>>12514461
>>12514475
>can't answer
>make up some chinese strawman
And the irony is that it all started from someone asking why the Chinese aren't working on Orion.
The answer is that it's an overrated meme drive.
Deal with it.

>>12514484
To be fair becoming self sufficient isn’t hard in and of itself. Mars has all the water you need and you can make air from it. Making soil to grow plants isn’t impossible either. The problem is that the ability to refine ores and make new technology/electronics is going to be fuckhard.

Until a mars colony can make a Starship using indigenous metals and resources, then said colony would die 50-100 years after the Earth turns off its constant stream of new utilities

>>12514490
Orion is an overrated meme drive. Starship with BTFO it out for the next few decades and when Starship finally gets too obsolete Fusion drives will BTFO Orion

>>12514420
While the two previous responses have some truth to them, you have to keep in mind that the parts are the ones that have been spotted. The facility is huge, there are shitton of parts that cannot be seen from the ground, and thus cannot be identified.

The entire terraforming/lifesupport side of future of space colonization, if it ever materializes, is going to 100% be bioengineering based. I would bet all my money on this.

>>12514490
the real issue is that anybody attempting to launch an Orion drive would result in everybody assuming it's the apocalypse and pushing the button

>>12514484
If this slightly worse flu happened on Mars all hab segments would go into lockdown for a month and it would be over, except it likely wouldn't as the environment in a colony isn't free-range enough to allow for shit like Corona to grow like it did in China.
As for becoming self-sufficient, what exactly does Mars have to depend on for Earth that it couldn't make by itself, especially keeping in mind the 26 month launch window limitation making all the critical and easy-to-spoil resources a must to produce locally. Computer chips? If packaged correctly, you could fit a million processors on a single Starship probably. Metals are unironically less of a problem for Mars than Earth as on Earth basically all of the easily available deposits are mined out, while Mars is both untouched, and one can always send a Starship into the belt rather than to Earth if one needs something exotic that was spotted in some asteroid. Setting up the initial in-situ production will require a lot of supplies from Earth yes, but it'll be much more economical to send the tools necessary to produce everything locally than to keep sending Starships every 2 years to resupply a colony that will die without said resupply.

>>12514433
>politically it will have to be deeply integrated into a system-wide UN to keep it democratic
why would it have to stay democratic? the US doesn't care if a country is democratic (see, saudi arabia), they just care if they can control the country

>>12514507
Disagree. Most of the water on mars will have to come from comets (Over a 1000 a month for a century to get very good sized oceans, but getting small oceans will be possible with just the water already on mars)

>>12514537
Nigga there’s polar caps with the water ice under

>>12514540
Yes, but those wouldn't create large oceans. Only very small ones. Refer to this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivg0iQ1h_Hs

how do you find a big tiddy spacex gf? are they a myth?

>>12514560
>>12514540
If you melted all the polar ice caps the oceans would be like this

>>12514570
That sea sucks.

>>12514497
On Earth it's not too hard.
On Mars it will require dozen of technological technology that it count as magic.
It's not just the ore. It's every single compound we use in mundane technology, let alone the minimal biosphere needed to keep a human alive, before even getting into the effect of gravity and radiation over our bodies.
We do seem to agree.

>>12514521
>all hab segments would go into lockdown for a month and it would be over,
Assuming you can feed everyone for a month like that and don't require people to move.
I do agree that a colony would likely have very little population in the first place.

>As for becoming self-sufficient, what exactly does Mars have to depend on for Earth that it couldn't make by itself
A molecular omnifactory and the ability to build every single components or space-tech keeping the colony alive.
Being able to mine ore don't mean you'll be able to build component that on Earth come from 20 countries using tools made of obscure material, including organic material from 50 others.
Even if you simply you'll inevitably discovers a lot of things you didn't knew were critical.

I believe the biggest problem will be organic compound and the bioengineering needed to farm anything.
Can Mars become self-sufficient? In theory.
How long before it can actually grow on its own? Likely century longer than fans believe, assuming Earth help and do the R&D at 100%.
It won't be like fictions.

>>12514533
I admit I'm making assumption that only a coalition of democratic country will be able to cooperate to set up/let other set up a colony there.
Even if we assume it's only the US doing it all, with their history with new frontier they likely won't accept anything that's not at least as democratic as the US (even if it's a very low bar).
The only reason Saudi Arabia isn't invaded is because there's other superpower than the US and no righteous cause to justify it.
Something you would have if you created the new colony from scratch.

>>12514475
Vacate. Now.

>>12514591
Honestly I think Mars will eventually become self sufficient but it’ll take longer than people say. SpaceX says it’ll take 50-100 years as per Elon but refinement of indigenous metals is going to be tough

>>12514591
I think the first martian colony would be democratic, but I doubt all of them (even all of the american ones) will be.

>>12514381
The R&D to take a Falcon 9/Crew Dragon and get it outfitted for satellite repair would take at least as long. SpaceX doesn't even have an EVA suit.

>>12514591
>before even getting into the effect of gravity and radiation over our bodies.
I think theres a good chance human bodies will do ok as long as they have a frame of reference. A lot of people forget that with microgravity, the body has essentially zero frame of reference for its growth, functions, etc etc. And the radiation issue could be solved pretty easily with a house sized electromagnet at one of the lagrange points

>>12514615
dumbass
https://www.northropgrumman.com/space/space-logistics-services/
this is already done

>>12514444
The difference with Starship is that it has so much volume. And payload capacity they they could just copy/paste a shuttle airlock with ISS/Artemis EVA suits and canadarm into its own payload bay and have greater capability than the shuttle with minimal new development. Trying to get even a fraction of that on a Falcon 9 would be a nightmare.

>>12514607
Speaking of political governance of space colony, it will also be a lot more regulated than most of what people are willing to admit/accept. You can't have someone doom the colony because he had the inalienable right to be drunk from space-alcohol and make his own space-revolver in a 3D printer.
I always get a good laugh reading this
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacelaw.php

>>12514624
I was operating under the assumption that we were talking about Hubble-style servicing missions. If you're just talking about lobbing a purpose built tug at the broken sat then essentially any launcher on the market could do it.

>>12514654
yeah
but it's been done before and is a service currently being offered by Northrop Grumman

>>12514591
Growing food locally is a necessity for any colony with a population above 1000, as otherwise each supply run would have to bring way too much food. Yes, there may be problems in getting food produced locally, but getting shit to grow isn't as difficult as you think, especially in a controlled environment. At least if you pick your crops right.
As for components, standardization is key. Instead of having 1000 different companies involved in making all sorts of garbage that's put together by 100 other companies, make it 10 companies producing parts and a single company putting it all together. Instead of having 100 different bolts with 100 different screwdrivers needed, enforce a single bolt standard with 3-5 different sizes at most. Instead of each tool/robot using custom made motors, have Tesla come up with 3 different motors in different sizes.
With a 26-month window between resupplies anything organic will be at best halfway past its shelf life before it even gets to Mars. In-situ production of local goods will be prioritized with the total percentage of the supply run it occupies, so if food takes 30% of each supply run + biggest limit to colony growth, that'll be prioritized to be produced locally. Motors for everything moving on mars take up 10% of the supply run space? Produce as much of them as possible locally, in terms of parts at least. You may not be able to produce a motor locally for 50 years in full, but producing the most heavy/spacious 80% means you can fit 5x engines on each supply run, or it'll take 5x less space.
Personally I'd love to see an actual list of things that are necessary to live on Mars, with difficulty to produce completely or partially charted out. What things have substitutes that could work etc. Saying shit like "not in 100 years" is short-sighted, since 100 years ago we were barely out of WW1. Wehrner von Braun was barely 8 years old 100 years ago.

>>12514644
Falcon Heavy might be able to pull it off with a unified upper spaceplane stage since it has enough first stage thrust.

>>12514616
>the radiation issue could be solved pretty easily with a house sized electromagnet at one of the lagrange points
It's another one of those easily solution that's exaggerated of several magnitude right?

>>12514683
>Instead of having 1000 different companies involved in making all sorts of garbage that's put together by 100 other companies, make it 10 companies producing parts and a single company putting it all together.
Good thing Elon Musk's brother runs a hydroponics company and sits on the board of directors for SpaceX

>>12514687
no
New Glenn is probably big enough for a reusable upper stage spaceplane but Falcon Heavy is a bad candidate for that
especially considering that SpaceX are actively discontinuing Falcon R&D

>>12514693
Yes, there are quite a few issues related to mars terraforming and colonization that people over-exaggerate greatly, but are in fact quite easy to solve. Its kind of strange to think the radiation issue on mars could be almost completely solved with a couple starship launches.

>>12514605
Fortunately, using CO from a MOXIE-type cell with martian iron could produce steel relatively simply so a major component of modern life would be available in-situ, and there's likely plenty of other metals near once volcanic areas

>>12514591
>I believe the biggest problem will be organic compound and the bioengineering needed to farm anything.
An aquaponics set up would be the best candidate for food production because it uses just water in a loop with both plant and animal components
Methylacoccus bacteria already are made into a protein and fat rich animal feed and it feeds off of methane which would be abundant from fuel production so you bring in fresh carbon for expansion
As for perchlorates, bio-engineered bacteria that decompose it or possibly just running it through non-potable water and using a membrane filter to collect and separate it from regolith and use it as a resource. Lichens could be used to turn the processed regolith to soil

What do you guys think Boeing, Blue Origin, employees etc think of SpaceX? While you're just there working, doing everything in secrecy for 20 years, the other company is making a big public spectacle out of testing game changing technology

>>12514724
The guys doing it for a paycheck probably don't care.
I imagine that the passionate ones hate themselves and fantasize about executing middle management every hour they are forced to work on technology that was considered cutting edge in 2000.

>>12514724
>>12514748
We need to get spaceflight companies off their asses by launching our own ork-tier space shit

>>12514724
My stepgrandfather worked as a machinist for Lockheed and he thinks SpaceX “is a phase” and discounts Starship 24/7

>>12514683
I'm not saying you won't WANT to get free of having to import stuff.
I'm saying you likely CAN'T get free of having to import stuff as quickly as usually described in copypasta skipping over 9000 unknown variables.

It's part of why I don't see a point colonizing a poorly accessible red dead rock before we learn to do everything that's needed on a far more accessible grey dead rock that will make the process much quicker.
The most stupid thing would be to skip a step for a PR stunt and suffer because no one want to admit it was a bad idea.

>Personally I'd love to see an actual list of things that are necessary to live on Mars, with difficulty to produce completely or partially charted out. What things have substitutes that could work etc.
So would I. But we haven't (really) started making that list seriously and you'll take a while defining what exactly you mean by "live", how it differ from "surviving" or"grow".
We did have a contest for space toilet.

I believe the most important part will be bioengineering and actually understanding human biology. We have no future outside of Earth if we can't do genetic engineering on human and create a self-sustaining biosphere.

Can't wait for KSP2 MAKO

>>12514724
>every nerd wants to go to mars he'll give up eventually
>it's not that easy in space
>landing rockets aren't a new thing
>we tried reuse but it didn't work (implying that it wont work for SpaceX)
>all their tech is just borrowed from NASA I remember their engineers coming over to tear apart the cool stuff we had
>they don't have proper funding
>they just found some novel engineering solutions
Heard this from an old NASA employee. He's a cool guy, but his opinions on spaceflight are outdated. Especially regarding SLS

>>12514795
I’m getting 2077 vibes all over again. This game better not suck.

>>12514683
I would love to see a list too. My question is about tools and clothing. Will things like cast iron pots and cups and clothing be considered super rare earth imports? At what point can the colony create their own metals? More importantly, will the colony have to live like the ghetto ISS and wear the same clothes everyday? Would they have enough resources to grow cotton to make clothes for everyone? If not cotton, what will martian clothes be made out of? Wool?

>>12514769
>It's part of why I don't see a point colonizing a poorly accessible red dead rock before we learn to do everything that's needed on a far more accessible grey dead rock that will make the process much quicker.
My biggest problem with going for the moon first is that it's always 3 days away, which means there's far less push to make it be independent from Earth, since you can always get the shit you need in less than a week. A moon colony can also be cancelled far more easily, since again it's not that independent. Meanwhile Mars needs to be built from the start to be independent from Earth for at least 5 years. What's the point to dick around on the Moon for 20 years to figure out shit that can be found to work/not work with just some solution-centric thinking.

>you'll take a while defining what exactly you mean by "live", how it differ from "surviving" or"grow"
Surviving gets defined by the minimum amount of food necessary for each colonist + some safety margin. Not single crop either to ensure variety. Grow gets defined by how easily scalable the food production gets beyond the initial baby steps made with supplies from Earth. And not just food either but everything. The more people on Mars, the more problems can be resolved by people on Mars. A colony of 1000 people may not have the capacity to produce each small component that goes into making the colony work, but a colony of a million could, especially if everything that the colony is still depending on to come in from Earth is easily available in a list of shit still coming in every 2nd year.

>I believe the most important part will be bioengineering and actually understanding human biology. We have no future outside of Earth if we can't do genetic engineering on human and create a self-sustaining biosphere.
That front luckily is seeing accelerated progress these days, so what may seem like a problem today may not be a problem in 5 years.

>>12514806
lmao the cope

>>12514763
>>12514806
literal coping
>>12514833
that and mars could possibly have decent amounts of liquid water and an atmosphere thick enough to move around without a suit by the end of this century

>>12514823
Colonial clothing would probably be like vault jumpsuits where its standardized and likely made of synthetic fibres or maybe fibres grown in the aquaponics farm
Metals would only need sufficient energy, a facility capable of smelting it and properly trained people to use it

>>12514823
Odds are initially people will have to wear the same shit every day, and growing stuff will likely be limited to food for quite a while, since cotton thread etc. can be shipped from Earth and stored long-term.
Making metals is likely to be one of the first focuses of a Mars colony beyond getting a local food supply running, as metals are heavy and thus expensive to get from Earth. Pots/cups/simple tools would be the first on the chopping block once that would work, since it's not like you really need that super-perfect stainless steel hammer to get the job done. Shit that people were able to make with technology 2000 years ago won't exactly be difficult to get going once the intial hurdles are out of the way. The way I understand problems with getting martian metal forging started, it's all the flavors of alloys that you could want for various purposes, which again boils down to the earlier mentioned standardization to remove complexity.

>>12514833
Mars and the moon happens at the same time
Window opens every 26 months, 6 months there, refuel, 6 months back, 6 months refurb and other timeline changes
Then one launch to the moon every week until it’s mars time again

>>12514814
All they have to do for it to be good is just make KSP but with better coding and graphics

>>12514863
>>12514833
Moon will be focused on by ULA, Sierra Nevada Corporation, Boeing!, Blue Origin, US government/NASA, ESA, JAXA, ROSCOMOS, and China while mars will be mainly focused on by SpaceX

>>12514490
Orion drive could be lauched with a mass driver, although the original proposal were simple solid rockets.

>>12514835
>>12514844
He spins SLS being written into law as a good thing too

>>12514861
Most 200 year old technology made heavy use of biotech - rope, wood, leather, etc.

So is Blue Moon cancelled? Blue seems to want to build their descent stage for the National Team Lander which is like 3X heavier and uses 6 million BE-7 engines

>>12514891
Depends on whether or not they get the contract, I guess.

>>12514891
it wasnt 6 million

>>12514891
hahaha wtf i cant believe i already forgot about blue moon

>>12514902
True it’s impossible to fit 6 million engines on one descent stage and what’s strange is the number of BE-7’s in Blue’s inventory actually increases with every launch.

>>12514891
Musk made fun of the name so now Jeff Who is embarrassed and wants everyone to memoryhole it.

>>12514891
Apparently it's planned to launch in 2024

>>12514879
It kind of is from the perspective of someone that assumes SLS is the only feasible super heavy lift option available. Means they can’t simply remove funding like a lot of NASA projects in the past.

>>12514912
*on Vulcan

>>12514947
Lol is there any news on New Glenn? I remember when some politicians toured Blue’s factory and it was literally empty

>>12514967
>I remember when some politicians toured Blue’s factory and it was literally empty
That was literally a fake article lmao

>>12514967

Last I checked is that New Glenn's first test flight/launch has slipped to 2022. Its delays are SLS'esque in character.

>>12514999
>New Glenn gets BTFO’d by Starship
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>12514999
>Last I checked is that New Glenn's first test flight/launch has slipped to 2022
Source?

>>12515004
Not the guy but its stated to be late 2021. So there is a chance of that slipping

>https://spacenews.com/blue-origins-new-glenn-added-to-nasa-launch-contract/

>>12515002
Ouch.

Berger says 2023 for New Glenn, since Vulcan wont launch until 2022

>>12514683
>Personally I'd love to see an actual list of things that are necessary to live on Mars, with difficulty to produce completely or partially charted out. What things have substitutes that could work etc.
That's quite hard to do because it depends on a lot of choices we never explored and a lot of work we never did.
Take a spacesuit for example, clearly we need some in a Martian colony, so a self-sustaining colony needs to be able to produce some from scratch.
What do you need to make a spacesuit? The only actual examples are the suits we currently use (plus those from the past), but they're not adapted to production from Martian resources: for example rubber is easy to find on Earth, but not on Mars (I guess spacesuits contain rubber, that's just an example anyway). Do we replace it with something else? Do we plant rubber trees in our colony? Hard to say which would be the more efficient.
And you have to do these choices for everything and their components, at every level (including tools, tools to make the tools etc.), including thing we don't even know what they will look like (what will be the ECLSS on Mars?). Additionally, as you mentioned, standardization will be super important, so the choices would have to take into account pretty much everything. Also we don't really know precisely the resources available on Mars.

Finally, even if we succeeded in making such a list (which would now basically include how the entirety of the Martian economy should work) whatever plans we make up on Earth would not survive the reality on Mars. The best way to get a self-sustaining colony is to have a Martian colony and let them come up with solutions to get the most things produced locally, which should happen naturally except if the transport cost from Earth is stupid cheap.

>>12515032
>Do we plant rubber trees in our colony? Hard to say which would be the more efficient.
We're going to need tropical forest biomes anyways to provide coffee.

>>12515032
The idea of being the guy who goes around to all the craters on Mars to dig up meteorites hoping that they'll contain needed rare materials is pretty cool. I hope there's a job like that.

>>12514502
wtf are you talking about. orion could potentially lift payloads of size aircraft carriers. how can starship compare to that.

>>12514082
never forget those who fell in the tumblr-4chan wars. gamergate lives on in our hearts. viva la /v/

>>12514497
self sufficient means ability to repace every piece o technology you use, including most complicated psocessors, every type of chemical or drug. essentially recreating whole industrial process that exists on earth, ignoring maybe some consumable goods.

>>12515067
You're replying to a Chinese shill who desperately doesn't wan't Space Force to get Orion battleships.

>>12512656
>>12512729
iirc it's also because the crawler can turn a lot sharper than a rail system.

>>12512749
>>12512772
We chose to build the massive fuckoff crawler in this decade and do that other thing, not because they are simple, but because they make us hard.

>>12514891
How does a lunar lander work with LH2 fuel? Just store it for 4 days?

>>12515167
yes

>>12515168
Quick google suggest if well insulated it won’t boil off that fast
But baffling why they wouldn’t go for methane

>>12515173
because it gives Blue Onanism fedbux for developing the BE-7 this way

>>12515180
BE-7 makes like 40 kn of thrust its weak as fuck

>>12515173
1) Blue has a lot more experience with Hydrolox than Methalox
2) You can ISRU Hydrolox on the moon but not Methalox

>>12515215
Why not then just make a PropaNos fuel blend motor for it, much lighter and cheaper with only a mild explosion hazard

Booster 1051 did five launches this year. ULA only launched five Atlas rockets this year.

>>12515227
SpaceX choosing to become their own launch customer is a great decision lmao

>>12515224
Are there really no carbon deposits on the moon?

Anyone got a link to the pot smoker beating us boeing quote? Need it for reasons

>Literally almost year 2774 AUC
>STILL no Solar Roman Empire
Where did we go wrong?

>>12515271
You didn't make Mercury into a forge world, that's what

>>12515254
There are solid ice chunks in craters and the best location for solar electrolysis outside of them.

>>12512681
And to get the atmosphere to a reasonable density, we'd only need to remove about 5 quintillion tons of it per year for a century.

>>12515286
What if we modified the atmosphere so everything under the habitable temperature/pressure layer was at least half the density of water so we could build cloud boats?

>>12515286
just open a wormhole from Venus to Mars, 2 birds 1 stone

>>12512646
How the fuck does terraforming mars work without a magnetic field?

>>12515297
Solar wind only strips like 4 pounds a minute or something, only really matters on scales of thousands of years. If you're slamming comets into Mars, it doesn't really matter. Radiation is another concern, but it's mediated by a thicker atmosphere. I'll wear a lead apron if I have to

>>12515297
Making artificial magnetic fields is simple

>>12515307
You can also easily generate an artificial magnetic field for the planet as well, by hanging a 30 ton electromagnet between Mars and the sun and supplying it with a few MW of power you could cloak Mars in a magnetic field even more powerful than Earths, or hang a much smaller satellite in a Mars-synchronous orbit over your colony and simply blanket the entire local area in a protective field.
Either way that's not really a concern, getting the logistics established to bombard Mars with comets sufficient to give it an atmosphere and liquid water would be a much larger challenge.

>>12515254
The pathetic amount of science that's been done to answer that question ends up at the answer "we don't know"
A Japanese orbiter found evidence of more carbon than could be accounted for by solar wind deposition. Plus, if the moon is composed mainly of the same stuff as the Earth, then it would kind of need to also have whatever primordial mineral sources of carbon were present here.

>>12515293
Basically just as useless as existing ideas for balloon colonies, but more work

I can't into large scale gas physics.
Could you fill a depression in Mars' surface (like Hellas basin or a volcanic caldera) with a thicker atmosphere? Would it escape too quickly to practically replenish? It seems like a small-ish crater or caldera would be a good spot for paraterraforming if this were feasible, because Mars has all the necessary atmospheric gases to simulate Earth's gas ratios if you process enough of it.

>>12515332
You need something to hold it in so it doesn't spread across the planet and get lost from solar wind
Mostly solid domes or possibly dense, controllable gassed to create a gaseous roof

>"AAAnd we're back, This is Red Mars Radio. It's time to get you some news..."
>"The Sol Invictus solar power station remains dormant despite NASA’s attempts to reactivate the space station. The chief overseer blamed it on the axiom quote “Energy is hard”
>”This bulletin is paid for by /biz/ Bar, Grill and Arcade. We accept Crypto. Next up, we got a public service announcement."
>"Always make sure to clean and properly maintain your armor's life support system. Without proper MOXIE generators and water reclaimation, you may find yourself on the wrong end of the Martian desert"
>"Ladies and Gentlemen, this next song goes out from me to you." https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iFRa0KZsGhc

>>12515313
>30MW
>more powerful than Earth
???

>>12513770
Just don’t tell the pilot it’s a suicide mission

>>12515408
I think the guy is saying Earth's magnetic field comes from within the earth. So by the time we measure the magnetic field from LEO or some of the lagrange points, its not very powerful. Meanwhile a small (30 MW) artificial magnetic field generated in Mars lagrange point would be more powerful when compared to Earth's magnetic field at the similar distance.

>>12515032
Natural rubber is a meme. Most of the rubber produced now is synthetic (though not by a large margin) and comes as a (by)product of petrochemical industry. So long you have hydrocarbons and energy you can make rubber. Even if you absolutely need it, there are many other plants that can produce usable latex, including dandelions.

>>12515461
>So long you have hydrocarbons
that's the problem, anon

>>12514264
The new laser enrichment methods are looking to be faster than centrifuge enrichment.

When Musk finally launches Starship the livestream should just play Video Killed The Radio Star on repeat until Boeing an heros.

>>12514700
Bullshit.

>>12515465
Methane is a hydrocarbon

>>12515484
We should have a new version of this with whatever's going on down below on that day.

>>12515494
This image makes the Manley seethe

>>12515494
You could do it with SN8.
Almost guarantee there was some chimpout going on at the same time. Always is, nowadays.
>>12515506
Did he actually comment on it?

>>12515515
>Did he actually comment on it?
He shitpost some SJW statement about crew 1. Presumably he saw this meme or something like it and blew a gasket

Every white person who complains about white people should be forcibly relocated to low income housing in Chicago. If they object, ask them why.

>>12515532
ahahaahah what a fucking faggot jesus christ fuck this gay world. How can you hate yourself to such an extent.

You fuckers can twist hating on Boeing to hating on black people so fast it honestly is impressive.

>>12515537
can confirm, lived in Chicago

>>12515562
not our fault they shove niggers into everything that's good in this world.

>>12515562
They're both stereotypically slovenly, wasteful, propped up by tax money, dangerously incompetent, etc

>>12515297
>>12515307
as >>12515310 said making an artificial magnetic field is very simple. its pretty much just a house sized electromagnet in the Mars sun L1 point. And giving mars an artificial magnetic field helps a lot, because mars stops losing atmosphere entirely
>Simulations indicate that within years, the planet would be able to achieve half the atmospheric pressure of Earth. Without solar winds stripping away at the planet, frozen carbon dioxide at the ice caps on either pole would begin to sublimate (change from a solid into a gas) and warm the equator. Ice caps would begin to melt to form an ocean.

>>12515486
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimbal_Musk

>>12515650
>just a house sized electromagnet
There's no way it's that simple. How heavy would it be? How much power would it need to function? What exactly would it require? How many Starship launches would it take?
And how significant would a magnetic field be to Mars in the grand scheme of making it more habitable?

>>12515660
i literally just explained it but if you want the source, here https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/V2050/pdf/8250.pdf
>Electromagnet specs
In the future it is quite possible that an inflatable struc-ture(s)can generate a magnetic dipole field at a level of perhaps 1 or 2 Tesla (or 10,000 to 20,000 Gauss) as an active shield against the solar wind.
>Expected Results: It has been determined that an av-erage change in the temperature of Mars of about 4oC will provide enough temperature to melt the CO2ve-neer over the northern polar cap. The resulting en-hancement in the atmosphere of this CO2, a greenhouse gas, will begin the process of melting the water that is trapped in the northern polar cap of Mars. It has been estimated that nearly 1/7thof the ancient ocean of Mars is trapped in the frozen polar cap. Mars may once again become a more Earth-like habitable environment as shown in Figure 2.
So pretty much it'd immediately start helping the planet to be terraformed.

>>12515660
Also the reason you don't think its that simple is probably from all the overhyping that popsci has done about the dangers of radiation and what not. They ramble on about how dangerous colonizing mars (or terraforming it is) but as I've said earlier, there are several components of martian terraforming that will be quite easy. The hardest aspect of terraforming mars will probably be getting large oceans, as the water reserves on the planet left nowadays are only enough for a relatively small ocean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivg0iQ1h_Hs Good video on how many comets it'd take to get large oceans on mars.

>>12515660
Good questions
>>12515664
If it’s really this good then I suppose Musk would have a plan for it. Maybe he could convince NASA to do it and spend money for it

I wonder what they are welding now.

>>12515673
Why would he convince NASA to do it? He could do it himself easily.

>>12515664
I'm just floored by the fact that such a small magnet could cover all of Mars. How much power would it require to function though?
>>12515671
I've seen the video. Well over half a million comets is seeming like the hardest part.
>>12515673
>Maybe he could convince NASA to do it and spend money for it
If it's actually this simple then it literally wouldn't be worth his time. Even a dozen Starship launches is a drop in the bucket compared to what he'll be doing and with that much mass to Mars he'd be much better off trying to sell them on a project way bigger than that.

>>12515692
>In the future it is quite possible that an inflatable structure(s) can generate a magnetic dipole field at a level of perhaps 1 or 2 Tesla (or 10,000 to 20,000 Gauss) as an active shield against the solar wind.

>>12515701
Yes. I read that. Would it require some electric input to make it function? If not then why an electromagnet and not just a magnet?
I'm not very familiar with magnets.

>>12515707
Probably? I don't know very much about magnets either. But you could use solar power of course.

>>12515685
Those welds look pretty clean. I wonder if this is the first time they started using a robotic welder.

>>12515719
No, I meant as of right now. And while I can't tell the quality of welds from such a distance and in the short time span when the flashes provided some illumination, there was almost certainly a human figure beside it. It has stopped since.

Forgive the stupid question I don't know much about orbital mechanics.
ESA launches from Guyane because it's closer to the equator and they get a boost from the earth's higher angular velocity at that point right?
Imagining a future where the moon is an established base of operations, would missions to the outer solar system benifit from launching from the moon, since it's spinning around earth? Kinda like a slingshot

>>12515753
the much larger benefit of launching from the Moon is the lower gravity and lack of atmosphere; but Starship won't base from Luna because there's no easy way to make methane there

>>12514051
I got filtered installing it

>>12515757
This comes from the assumption there are no carbon deposits on the Moon, but since we've done fuck all actual geological exploration of the moon we can't say. I think its likely at least a few major carbon deposits of some form are located on the moon due to impacts from carbonaceous asteroids.

>>12515753
it would help, but that would add only few hundred m/s dv at best
not fighting gravity is bigger advantage - you need less than 2000 m/s dv to reach orbit from moon
Earth atmosphere and gravity on the other hand eats up over 9000 (!!1lmao!) m/s dv

>>12515768
I’m pretty sure you can get it via CKAN if manually installing it is too much of a pain.

Couldn't you build CANDU reactors on Mars using natural uranium with no need for enrichment or importation?

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

>>12514833
>independent
I really hope you meant self-sufficient by that because the one thing we don't need another of is a country of conceited settlers acting like they are the chosen people held down by everyone else.

>A moon colony can also be cancelled far more easily
Sunk cost fallacy and emotional blackmail is a poor way to justify a colony Mr.Zubrin.
A moon colony will be far easier to justify in the first place as it doesn't cost more and it build infrastructure for better space travel later and may even actually turn a profit for the rest of the world with resources from space (not even talking of Helium3 meme).
It's time to stop thinking small and build a giant interconnected economically profitable infrastructure instead of thinking how to trick others into paying X to play settlers down a lifeless gravity hole.

>What's the point to dick around on the Moon for 20 years to figure out shit that can be found to work/not work with just some solution-centric thinking.
Because trying to do that on Mars would likely kill peoples or take 200 years longer because of the slow rate of travel and Mars being not being as hospitable as the moon.
I fear you believe that being on Mars with "no other solution" will magically inspire engineering solutions and make production capability appear out of tin carbon dioxide.

>Survival/Grow
The time and effort ProMars expect to reach 1000 then 1M is usually grossly underestimated even if we produced Starship by the thousand and it have the expected specs.
Anyway, from there it become an long economic discussion wether starting with the Moon, Mars or somehow both is more profitable and quicken our transition into an interplanetary species.

>bioengineering
>what may seem like a problem today may not be a problem in 5 years.
Are you a Chinese Government Official free of ethic or safety concern?
Or are you underestimating the complexity of the problem?
It's bad policy to hope fundamental problems solve themselves in due time.

>>12515859
I don't know what your issue is anon. SpaceX is going to focus on Mars and that is that. You have NASA, ULA, Boeing, Sierra Nevada Corporation, JAXA, ROSCOMOS, and the Chinese all focusing on the moon, as well as a bunch of other smaller organizations.

FREE MARS

>>12515857

>>12515866
I'd guess you just consider it personnel business.
"SpaceX belong to Musk, therefore whatever SpaceX does is self-justified, every entity do whatever they want"

I consider it from a more global point of view.
"Would Humanity profit more if we somehow agreed and focused on what's important instead of wasting money on PR stunt"

Agree or not, someone have to do bring different idea and sell more realistic dreams.

>>12515892
getting Mars out of the control of the USGov is a worthwhile cause

>>12515892
>would some vague and undefined concept of "humanity" benefit from X?
Most of Africa doesn't know Mars exists.

>>12515894
Not if it's to become a plutocrat autocracy.

>>12515895
And a lot of white american believe in creationism.
Do we really want to go /pol/ right now? I don't care if the thread is dying we shouldn't.

>>12515910
there's nothing wrong with a plutocrat autocracy as long as it's not under the thumb of the CIA

>>12515910
You already "went /pol/" by presupposing that a monolithic "benefit of humanity" exists or can exist.

>>12515555
The hate is overrated, more often its fitting in with the crowd or outright sociopaths playing circus.

>>12514683
>>12515032
There are some places on the internet that have had quite lengthy and detailed discussions about food, fuel, plastic, and metal production on Mars.

>>12515083
Just build bigger curves

>>12515465
>co2 + h2 = ch4
From there getting ethylene is trivial compared to the effort that was undertaken to establish the facility capable of producing the methane and the megawatts of power needed to power it and the heavy machinery.