/sci/ - Science & Math

Science as a process is pure. But the scientific community has become corrupted and lost credibility for a number of reasons. For me primarily because they have been using their platforms to push social justice values, presenting them as though it was hard science when in fact it is nothing more than opinion. To survive in the scientific community today you must not only literally swear allegiance to woke values, but must become a full blown evangelist or risk being shunned and ultimately expelled.

>>12493339
its pretty much entirely dead, most people intuitively know that its just completely political or invasive now. at this point it seems that just using your own judgement might be a safer bet than follow the advice of science and health experts

>>12493339
No. People love science more than ever.

>>12493339
While many >>12493363 tries to blame the decrease to some external factors i think the decrease is to blame from science itself. IMO we're reaching a limit to which we can reliably investigate common phenomena with the scientific method. Many of the sciences are simply reaching a epistemological limit:
Physics: Quantum and astrophysics, string theory too speculative.
Psychology: The psyche can't be quantified and operationalized into reliable measures.
Computer science: Scientists hope that AI will make limitless calculations and give some answers we can't ourselves think of due to limit computational capacity. Here we apply algorithms to create a product which we can't fully grasp how its produced.

It's clear to me that these struggles and ambiguities must be expressed and that good researchers will know how their findings and work is severely compromised by this complexity. Every good scientist IMO is one who is skeptical and real about the constraints of his knowledge.

The real problem is that journalists, clinical need and people in general don't want nuanced weak answers but strong ones to make their world easylier coherent.

>>12493433
Frankly the growing overreliance on AI is pissing me off. Prior to the last 5-10 years there was a much bigger focus on trying to come up with more optimized solutions to solving problems in physics, chemistry, biology, etc: Building better models, finding clever analytic or quasi-analytic solutions to problems, finding ways to maximize computation while minimizing computational power. But now everyone is just utilizing black box machine learning crap to try and brute force every problem, and accepting questionable, biased, and even baseless interpolations as being on par with experimental evidence.

It's a lazy, low IQ approach to problem-solving that will bite us in the ass.

You are supposed to know the limitations of the tool you are using.

>>12493363
>opinion
Just don't be racist sweetums.
>opinion
Wh*tes aren't a separate race
>opinion
people deserve food and shelter
>opinion
you are privileged

If you think the above are opinions, then you are sorely mistaken hun.

>>12493433
This is most likely true, and I think it is very much responsible for the majority of the slowdown.

One must wonder as to the institutional issues with science nowadays too though. Corporate research means funding is scarce for anything with a low time horizon, woke culture means funding is scarce for anything controversial, peer review culture and publish-or-die means replicability rates plummet, and so on.

Thirdly, dysgenics is likely a thing. Too many brown people and women at Ivys for the geniuses to do their thing.

>>12493608
Yes, those are all opinions.

>>12493339
No, but the credibility of academia is.

>>12493663
In my opinion, science is academia. When people say "science", no one means "the scientific method": we mean "that thing which resides in universities and creates public epistemology" more or less.

>>12493677
I think people that don't understand this are just playing dumb.

Do you love your phone? You know it's made by science, right? You know what else is science? Global warming, and gender fluid. Don't be an anti science moron.

>how can there be credibility when 420 genders???
There's your whole thread.

>>12493663
the vast majority is still trustworthy

>>12493693
no anon >>12493433 makes some good points

Scientists then tried to separate politics and objectivity (even then, many were zealots in their ideology). Scientists now see politics and objectivity as inseparable. How could they possibly be wrong in their own ideological viewpoints? Like someone said before years ago on this board, we are becoming a post-truth society. It doesn't matter if you are a scientist, a lawyer, a banker, a veterinarian - no matter who you are or what you do, the curve of your own beliefs will crush any observations you witness if it dares to show you something that goes against you personally.

>>12493695
No, unfortunately. Look up the replicability crisis.

>>12493699
Sure, but you know how the rest of the thread will be.

>>12493363
... and that's a good thing

People take science for granted. Imagine using anti-biotics because you have a hangover or a headache and then claiming BiG pHaRma want to insert nanobots into you in a once in a lifetime vaccine.

>>12493521
This. A succinct proof is so much more elegant and easier to build on than some black box answer.

>>12493715
isn't that most threads though, a few really good posts and then a stream of shit that keep it bumped

>>12493707
>Look up the replicability crisis.
I have before, I am not trying to pretend it isn't a thing, however science keeps moving forward because most science isn't for clicks,corporations or ideology

>>12493754
>because most science isn't for clicks,corporations or ideology
Uhhhhh, I hate to break it to you anon

>>12493433
>Physics: Quantum and astrophysics, string theory too speculative.
there are at most 3-5 HEP theorists per physics department in large state schools. Most physicists neither care about nor need string theory. There's more to physics that HEP. We have AMO, solid state, nuclear, condensed matter, geophysics, biophysics, etc etc
t. physics grad student

>>12493363
>>12493433
These are both good points

>>12493686
That's pretty dumb reasoning. I can use a phone and reject the institutions that created them because really they are not responsible they just take credit for it.

>>12493608
I may look like a Mongol but I am no Hun

>>12493686
what a retarded association fallacy, too many midwits use this argument

>>12493754
>because most science isn't for clicks,corporations or ideology
Oh nononono

>>12493608
They are closer to opinion than hard science. Please let me know what testable hypothesis you can yield from those statements.

>>12493677
I disagree. Academia includes non-scientific disciplines and really, what I've witnessed being done here is plain waste of taxpayer's money.

>>12493695
Unfortunately no. And I'd even say that without the reproducibility crisis. From experience, most grant applications are complete bullshit and the institutes barely deliver on the promises.
Publishing is super important, hence, every miniscule thing gets published. Sometimes not in a single paper but consecutive ones to reap in more citations.
Negative results are pretty much never published. Say for example you perform an experiment on animals (im involved in one experiment which uses 40000 mice over a period of 4 years). Results only get published if you found something. The consequence is that some other group with the same idea will repeat that experiment, killing 40000 more mice and more taxpayer money.

It's a shitshow from my perspective, really. On top of all that, education becomes rediculous. Easy topics, easy exams, so the university can get more money.

Real science is done, not but academia, but by corporations and the military. Science is very credible when corporations use it to figure out how to sell you products, or when the military uses it to design new weapons. But science done by academia? No credibility at all.

>>12493521
fucking this.

I was reading about GPT 2 today, funcking 1.5 billion parameters and fucking used 100-200 gpus (i think this one might be alphafold 2 not sure). Ofcourse you can map anything to anything with such bs level of parametrization.

This is sort of (not equivalent) like when in high school you had very wide spread of points so you decided to use polynomial fuking 10th order to fit all of them and be like, "yay got em"

and this isn't even the worse part, the thing is science pretty much runs backed up by capitalism and today's version just care about quick profits and bye. So coporate $$ backing will be much more for such approximate works that give some new stuff quickly to make profit on quickly instead of spending time and money on concrete science for long term.

>>12493339
Yes. Retards don't respect degrees anymore and pretend to know more than people with a doctorates

>>12493663
Well if we don't listen to academia, then who should we listen to as a replacement. This is the question no one can give a decent answer for

>>12494179
Ourselves, our communities and families, those in need.

>>12494192
>Ourselves, our communities and families, those in need.
You're not serious right? I don't have time, resources or passion to study quantum physics and only one person in my family actually spends time on the engineering section of science. Maybe I can look to our community but that too will only get us but so far compared to having some sort of national science committee

>>12494179
if no one can be trusted then "we" do not listen to anyone. the state must separate from the synagogue

>>12493363
>But the scientific community has become corrupted and lost credibility for a number of reasons. For me primarily because they have been using their platforms to push social justice values
I actually rolled my eyes so hard when I read this that it felt uncomfortable. Of all the problems with "science" as an enterprise, such as the replication crisis in some fields, the access costs of most conferences/journals/books, being forced to push out a couple of papers a year to stay relevant, the way we only care about new results and not about replicating old ones, the difficulty in securing funding for experimental or long term projects... Of ALL of these and many more, the one you choose to fixate on is a fucking made-up /pol/ boogeyman (not in the sense that it's not a problem to some extent but in the sense that it basically doesn't happen outside of twitter and/or social sciences)!

Unfuckingreal. I say this with the utmost earnestness in my heart: I hope you die a horrifying painful excruciating death, preferably due to cancer over the span of a decade. I hope I never have to read anything written by you ever again. I hope you turn out to be infertile and that your entire bloodline comes to an end with you, you pathetic piece of excrement political traveller! I wish I could go back in time and shoot moot square between the eyes when he decided to reinstate /pol/. Fuck you and fuck all your acquaintances up to 2 hops away, in case your retardation propagated to them. Never post in my board again.

>>12493404
>midwits love science more than ever
Fixed that for you

>>12494257
Great idea retard. Let's never share out scientific results ever again.

>>12494280
Nice pasta

>>12494280
I haven't seen a roastie triggered this hard in a while.

The scientific community is a feminist and SJW circle jerk. The "problems" you cited are irrelevant if there is no trust in science. Every time I read a white-men-are-evil opinion paper disguised as hard science in a credible journal the credibility of the community collectively goes down a notch. It's been at below zero for 5 years now.

>>12494361
>The scientific community is a feminist and SJW circle jerk.
This. Academia as a whole has been following this trend but it certainly seems to be accelerated by people fabricating their own alleged oppression.

>>12494361
This window will close in 3 seconds.

>>12494371
Your roast beef sandwich never closes. Go back to your safe space.

>>12494361
far right incels like you are just as anti science as any sjw

>>12493363
Lmao IQ retardedness and social sciences sre from from being part of the community. No one in physics or biology cares about retarded social categories per their respective fields. But well scientists are people too and obviously they are going to have opinions about social issues.

>>12494384
>incel
I literally have had sex twice while participating in this thread.

>anti science
I never said I was anti science. I'm anti the current scientific community and establishment.

>>12494388
Nigga have you been within 100 meters of a science department in the last 5 years.

>>12494411
Did you get upset when someone sent out a mail about inclusivity?

>>12494411
There is no "science department" you fucking retard, what a way to show you don't actually work in academia. If you complain about tranny shit, gender norms are socially constructed and make no sense as fundamental biological categories. Biological sex is still defined the way it is and used the way it is used no one is denying male or female are useless categories, there are just people who like to be called female because social norms are fucking weird. And yes there are gender theorists and social critics that say shit, but only retards consider what they do "scientific".

>>12493579
And know the tools using it.

>>12494449
I said "a" science department. Such a physics, math, bio department. I know there is no such thing as a placed actually called "the science department"

>gender norms are socially constructed
More opinions disguised as science. Stopped reading there.

>>12494456
Tell what biological law states men shouldn't wear dresses? These aren't fundamental for you to be a biological male. Why is that we have these roles is a complicated question that is not entirely clear can be explained through biology, but what is clear is that biology doesn't give normative content as how someone has to act. You are not breaking a law of biology by being a tranny, this is not opinión but a fact. Now obviously that doesn't mean there is a law of biology that says people should choose the gender they want, the argument goes bothways.

>>12493608
>whites aren't a separate race

If race doesn't exist and is purely a social construct, then it is objectively incorrect to claim that white people have privilege or that all white people are racist. If racial categories don't exist then you can't say that the members of a racial category (white people) are inherently racist.

>>12494464
I never said there was a biological or other scientific law. But you baselessly claim gender norms are a result of nurture over nature.

>>12494476
No as I already explained, there are complex reasons as to why we have gender norms, biology may explain certain things but clearly there are norms that are learnt like what to wear to a formal event if you are male or female. These may have a biological origin as most of socialization, but as people that have agency and are self aware, we are not bounded to what oncd was a biological advantage. Now all of these doesn't change that gender IS SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED as this doesn't mean it may have a biological origin because it depends on a society to settle them and maintain them. Laws are socially constructed, but it doesnt mean they may not have some biological origin from evolution or whatever, but for them to exist you need a society. Its3 as simple as that and it's just a descriptive category used by anthropology to classify societies. THAT DOESN'T MEAN AL THE TRANNY SHIT WE SEE NOW IS JUSTIFIED OR SHOULD BE WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING NOR THAT GENDER NORMS HAVE NO USE AND THAT BIOLOGY DOESN'T PLAY A ROLE IN THEIR CREATION. The tranny shit is a particular set of gender roles and people argue for them for some reasons, and you don't have to agree with them. I don't agree with them but I understand the discussion as to how you should call someone has little to do with biology and chromosomes.

>>12494280
I'm just imagining some obese femicunt trashing her apartment in rage right now. Probably will punt her cat out the window at some point.

>>12494495
I don't even know what your point is anymore. Take your meds then rewrite that.

>>12494384
How does it feel knowing that your only merit in academia is your sexual identity?

>>12493681
I think people are generally drawing a line between people in the natural sciences and people in the social
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>sciences
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When they say science is trustworthy but academia isn't

>>12493363
fpbp
/thread

>>12493521
You have no idea what we can do with AI currently. PINNs and symbolic regression are a thing.

>>12493339
Yes, but it's because of the over reliance on evidence rather then ones actual ability to think which is causing stagnation and corrupting the scientific method into something it never was meant to be. also woke bullshit like >>12493608 and "YEAH SCIENCE!!" is ruining everything

>>12493339
Climate change is real

>>12493608
>opinion
discarded

>>12493339
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

In this day and age, whether it's in journalism, on twitter, in a parliament or in a scientific argument, just overwhelm your opponent with your bullshit and they can almost never keep up.

>>12493363
>Science as a process is pure.
No it's not. Everything calling itself science has permanently tainted science. Oh, I'm meant. SCIENCE!!!

>>12493339
>credibility
it never had any

Religion is credible when it gives results.
Science is credible when it gives results.
Since science starts to stall and give less results, its influence is decreasing.

>>12495054
You are right

>>12494927
Most mathematicians think that an ANN is advanced when it comes to AI, scifags don't really know much stats to begin with

>>12495054
Science influence is decreasing because people adopted a "good enough" attitude.
We live comfortably enough, why waste energy learning complicated stuff like maths and physics when we can just outsource it to pajeets and chinks?

>>12493339
no, credibility would only be decreasing if you do not understand the foundation is still rock solid as it has always been.
if it gets bad enough you can keep your love of science utterly hidden and pursue your love of all things science secretly so that no one can ruin what you love for science for you ever keep things on printed books and offline notes such as science history and similar things

>>12495054
and this is interesting because religion never looses credibility in the modern age
everything they preached stands strong
no religion - collapse

>>12494192
bump

>>12493363
>Science as a process is pure
not really. it isn't even well-defined.

>>12493339
science credibility was always bad once institutionalised. it will never improve. it is part of bigger problems like academic culture, academics in general, institutionalisation, and decay of western culture.

>>12497229
that said, the I FUCKING LOVE SCIENCE shit is rightfully beginning to be considered cringy and delusional.

>>12497233
it’s a little suspicious that it would ever become cringeworthy, since religion is fundamentally many times worse but commonly accepted

>>12494472
Spiders can be different colors or have different spots. Does that make them different races? Not every time.

>>12497312
He's too weak to fight for his rights. Thats not my problem lol

>>12493339
>Is the credibility of science decreasing?
considering "science" is just some nebulous term thrown around mostly by the media and then parroted by the masses, I'd say "science" was officially discredited probably right around the time they faked the moon landing

>>12494350
>some midwits love science more than ever
Ftfy bro.

>>12493363
This

>>12493363
You are, of course, 100% correct. This makes all the redditards/bunkercels seethe profoundly.
>>12494280
Just look at this unhinged response.

>>12497316
>Not every time.
nice hedging :)

>>12494280
>Unfuckingreal. I say this with the utmost earnestness in my heart: I hope you die a horrifying painful excruciating death, preferably due to cancer over the span of a decade. I hope I never have to read anything written by you ever again. I hope you turn out to be infertile and that your entire bloodline comes to an end with you, you pathetic piece of excrement political traveller! I wish I could go back in time and shoot moot square between the eyes when he decided to reinstate /pol/. Fuck you and fuck all your acquaintances up to 2 hops away, in case your retardation propagated to them. Never post in my board again.

This is my new go-to for copypasta instead of navy seal

>>12495054
Not only does it seem like science doesn't give results these days, it seems to actively produce bad ones. More people are turning into skeptics of the health industry and academia

>>12498132
>makes irresponsible statement multiple times completely outside of his field of expertise
>surprised when consequences come to him

>>12498223
Couldn't have said it better myself comrade.

>>12494164
That's because you can get a doctorate for writing a freshman quality paper about the Twilight movies.

>>12498223
If the problem was that he was speaking outside of his field, why was the punishment inside of his field?

>>12493433
The thing is we're seeing the scientific community utterly failing on matters that are far more approachable and well within epistemology. It's just that they are letting external factors flavor their judgment and in so doing rob themselves of any trust the public once had for them. Honestly odds are the public would trust them on quantum and astrophysics or computer science, because those topics will not be as open to bias and politicized agenda.

The credibility of science for the scientifically illiterate (or just not specialized into the specific subject) is primarily because of the behavior of the experts or those who advocate the public listen to them. They engage in behavior contradictory to listening to or adhering to the scientific message, and so the public assumes there's some level of chicanery going on. Prior cases of preaching scientific results to the public either lacked this flagrant hypocrisy or it was better disguised so the public was willing to give credibility to the scientific community.

This isn't simply the media taking some ambiguous research and proclaiming "Studies say doing X causes bad results Y". This is them doing so and then flagrantly and aggressively doing X as if driven by a fucking pathological compulsion. This image used to mock the idea of suggesting the lady doth protest too much but holy shit when it comes to scientific researching suggesting action/activity X causes negative Y you are
>GUARANTEED
that the person advocating "Listen to the experts/the science!", and possibly the experts/scientists themselves, will be doing the very thing they are preaching against.

>>12493400
>>12493363
basically this

if the science wasn't shit, there wouldn't be so many skeptics turning into anti-vaxers

>>12498223
>irresponsible statement
>outside of his field of expertise
Are you retarded?

>>12498223

>>12498223.

>>12498223
>

https://youtu.be/aQDBNJ3mPa0

>>12498223
.

>>12498223,

>>12498471
I like how it went from just skin tone and IQ to RAPE AND HOMICIDE on the lower half

>>12493363
I agree that academia overrepresents social justice values, but it's retarded to say that everyone in it has to spout it to not be expelled.
I had a professor in my university which is located on the most commie city of the most commie region in my country, who would post daily on his twitter QAnon and cultural marxism stuff, but he did his job without bringing that up and thus nobody cared.

>>12498514
https://tnc.news/2020/06/21/a-ubc-exec-liked-conservative-tweets-now-he-has-apologized-and-resigned/

>>12497233
>beginning
you living in 2013, bro?

>>12493339
credibility of science communicators is decreasing as people get a steady stream of science technobabble they start researching themselves and see they are full of shit or they tune out because what is being claimed is interfering with their lives. Science is tolerated not a given for humanity. The more scientists are used as political pawns the worst it will get

>>12493339
No, morons just have a global forum.

>>12497240
Case in point

>>12495714
This, women's rights was a mistake

>>12493339
>12493339

Papers are not reproductible.

>>12493363
>Science as a process is pure
An absolute fallacy and prime example of scientism.

>>12493608

>>12498223
>my feelings were hurt
>strip that man of his lifetime of work!

I starting to think gravity isn't real. How am I supposed to believe it's real when there are roasties and trannies walking around in physics departments?

>>12498236
>everyone who even remotely disagrees with me is X ridiculous pseudoscientist
>>12498454
>>12498458
>>12498461
>>12498465
>>12498470
>>12498471
None of this contradicts anything I was implying, but thanks for the /pol/ infographic dump. He discovered DNA, that doesn't mean he's an expert in the psychology intelligence and is able to speak about how much the white-black IQ difference is due to genetics. I thought that would be self-evident.
>>12498658
It didn't hurt my feelings at all.

>>12494280
This kind of unhinged lunatic is now in literally in control of academia and science. Gee I wonder they have lost all credibility...

>>12499374
More like, science and academic have been restructured so that this persons feelings doesn't get hurt. Equally damning for credibility imo.

yeah
and honestly, a boring approach. its disconnected and materialist
there's no personal connection to science. its lost its existentialist and experimental roots
its become a thing of dogma in low trust societies, wielded by the machinations of whoever wants to fund X and release Y info

also its too slow

>>12493363
Based.

Applied feminism (previously known as science) has made itself irrelevant by using the influence it had to peddle SJW bullshit.

>>12499569
>made itself irrelevant
You looking forward to your vaccine anonkun?

>>12498132
Whats wrong with stripping this guy of all his awards?

>>12493339
Science has become religion lite for most involved, you don't follow the herd you don't get the funding and the opportunities.

>>12499368

>>12493608
Obviously bait, but still, just for the "hun" you should hang yourself

>>12500646
This just proves that either a high IQ is not needed to make good money or poor white Americans are just pretending to be poor.

Superconductivity
>>12502930

>>12493339
When you moralising faggots openly declaring "doing good" is paramount in science, what do you think laymen who don't agree what "good" is think when viewing their work. Fucking braindead progressives pt. 1000