/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12409518
Realistically, what is the point of sending Spaniards to the new world? We're never going to colonize the place. What do we gain from it.

>>12409518
>We're never going to colonize that place.
What makes you think that?

>>12409518
>We're never going to colonize that place

>>12409518
>We're never going to colonize that place
Wrong, Skyrim must be sold on Mars and you're going buy it again.

>>12409803
>>12409805
>>12409801
Isn't that place basically hell for human life?

>>12409832
Yes, and? We have people living in California and they seem to be handling it well enough.

>>12409885
My point is that sending a few people to Mars is cool, but it doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

>>12409890
>but it doesn't seem to lead anywhere.
Research that isn't a snails pace, resource utilization, extra living space, being away from Earth, civilization backup, national backup...

>>12409890
>sending a few people to Mars is cool,
>cool

>>12409901
Hey bro, no one is forcing you to go to Mars; if you want to stay on Earth and rot with the dumb brown masses that's your choice to make.

But some of us want to go and settle Mars for no other reason than it's there. And we CAN.

>>12409898
>>12409901
>>12409925
Earth is a paradise compared to Mars, and surviving has been hard enough. Economic difficulties still exist.

Now try to imagine an economically self sufficient society in fucking Mars. It doesn't seem realistic at all, not now or anytime soon.

This seems like it might be more realistic to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge5Q3EBQ1tc

Like I said, sending people to Mars is cool, but it's not going to change your life or the lives of your children or grandchildren, because

a) those colonies would be small and completely economically dependant on earth
b) life there would suck compared to earth's anyway

>>12409953
Again, no one is forcing you to go.

But there are many of us who think living on the Moon or Mars as one of the first colonists is cool as fuck and the ultimate challenge.

>>12409959
>Again, no one is forcing you to go.
I don't know what your point is when you say this.

>>12409985
Okay, let me phrase it as, why do you care if people decide to colonize Mars?

You keep making this same argument that humans have no reason to colonize Mars and i'm trying to point out that a ton of people (and the only serious and viable private space company) are dedicated and committed to colonizing Mars regardless of how you feel about what people should or should not do in terms of Space colonization.

You being dumb isn't an argument buddy.

>>12409925

>>12409991
I am thinking about what it would take to actually colonize something outside of Earth.

It is not possible to colonize Mars currently. Maybe in the very distant future if technology advances enormously. To me, colonizing a place means that you can self sufficiently have a large number of people living there indefinitely. Like, a society living there.

Until then, things like O'Neill colonies seem to make more sense.

This is why I ask: what's the point of sending people to Mars? Sending a small group of people somewhere where they can have a shitty life is not the same as colonizing that place.

>the only serious and viable private space company)
This is not true. I'd ask you to define "serious and viable", but whatever.

>>12410008
>It is not possible to colonize Mars currently
That's completely fucking false though. Literally every single issue with colonizing Mars has been analyzed to death and solved with current tech. The biggest factor holding back Martian colonization isn't that it CAN'T be done but that it's currently too expensive to be done. Which is why SpaceX is so obsessed with driving the costs of space down. But the actual technology for every other aspect of colonizing Mars (and I mean 100% self sustaining) is in fact possible. The only thing that might be a stretch at first is ISRU propellant manufacturing because that hasn't been demonstrated yet.

>What's the point of sending people to Mars
Because they want too
>this is not true
SpaceX is the only company seriously advancing rocketry right now. Blue Origin is a fucking joke without a single fucking rocket on the pad. Boing can't make a working rocket out of used shuttle hardware, they can't even make a functioning fucking return capsule. No other private space company is even making a profit yet. For the moment, SpaceX is literally it. I have high hopes for Blue Origin because O'Neill cylinders are definitely going to be a huge part of humanities future in space; but it's going to be a long fucking time before the first mega-structures get built in orbit. In contrast SpaceX could build a viable self sustaining Martian colony within my lifetime.

>>12410008
>>12409518
Best argument I've heard is that it's a tangible galvanizing goal to gin up support for a bunch of basic science. The technology we need to terraform and build a small self sustaining colony on mars would map onto many problems we have at home (rugged energy supply, recycling technology, food security)

I'm pretty convinced by the pitch.

>>12410058
>That's completely fucking false though.
It is not false. By colonizing I mean having thousands or millions of people live there in a way that they can sustain their own life without depending on Earth, not just a handful of people living a shitty life.

>The biggest factor holding back Martian colonization isn't that it CAN'T be done but that it's currently too expensive to be done.
If it is too expensive to be done, then it can't be done. That's the whole point.

You are not going to have entire societies living in Mars anytime soon. You may have a small group of people, but that's as far as it gets.

>Because they want too
Fine. But let's not pretend that this goes anywhere.

>Blue Origin is a fucking joke without a single fucking rocket on the pad
At least they have a vision that may actually allow humans to leave Earth and have a good life there. The Mars thing is a meme.

>>12409518
Look at it this way. As far as we know, Mars is a lifeless planet about 1/3 the size of earth with quite a lot of water in close proximity. Why not try do something cool with it?

>>12410063
>it's a tangible galvanizing goal to gin up support for a bunch of basic science. The technology we need to terraform and build a small self sustaining colony on mars would map onto many problems we have at home
Now this does make sense. I can get behind that. But if we are interested in having human societies living good lives outside of Earth, the Mars meme is completely unrealistic, at least for now. The best idea thus far seems to be O'Neill colonies, and even that is still economically far fetched as fuck. I have a harder time being excited about space than most people here.

>>12410114
>Why not try do something cool with it?
I agree that it's very cool. But then I think, "and then what?", and that's where the problems begin.

>>12410121
What exactly is the point of O’Neill cylinders? Aside from perhaps space dockyards or just outposts what would they provide economically?

>>12410129
The real reason they want to colonize Mars is racism. They want apardheid and they don't care that they'll have to live in a hellhole to get it.

>>12410121
>Mars unrealistic for first colony
>O neil cylinder
I think Mars is easier than O neil, but I also think a 100-500 people spinning space station is easier and more productive than Mars at least initially
>>12410129
Yeah, maybe I agree actually, but I also know I am not able to fully understand the possibilities that will arise

>>12410146
Bezos says that humans could live in them, as if they are a planet where you can spend your life. Of course it's not going to happen in our lifetimes, but it still seems much more realistic than living in Mars or any other planet in our solar system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge5Q3EBQ1tc

>>12410093
Nobody expects for Mars to suddenly have a giant population overnight, but the first thing that needs to happen is for the basic necessary infrastructure to be set up and that is going to have to be done by some unfortunate people who will live shitty life’s, but the first people to America or Australia lived pretty shitty life’s, the first people to set up in the middle of Siberia lived shit life’s and some still do, but that is expected.

You seem to be terrified of taking a first step anywhere. SpaceX gets such a high reputation because of their goals and their success despite the rocky beginning, unlike literally every other commercial space company they have proven that they are capable of creating, innovating and most importantly making things cheaper which is the number one need right now as we do have the tech to get there and start setting things up, but the cost is just too high for anyone to take it seriously.

>>12409518
In no particular order.
>Interest in space and development of space industry/manufacturing/infrastructure
>Expanding opportunities for solar system economic growth.
>Research with less government intervention or restriction.
>Further understanding of physics and engineering (and probably also biology).

>>12410183
That doesn’t really answer the question, I know what they are, but what do they do that justifies building them in the first place?

Aside from the novelty of a space station I don’t see their uses for anything other that outposts or for building other ships in orbit, but the spinning might not be very helpful in that regard.

From my perspective they seem more like pitstops rather than homes and I see no real future in them compared to a planet.

>>12410202
>but what do they do that justifies building them in the first place?
Bezos says that Earth could become "a residential area", and the industry and other hings could go in those cylinders. That's one justification.

Another justification is that as population grows, we may not properly fit on Earth, He talks about a trillion humans living in space in these things. Making these cylinders would be like making mini planets to live on.

They seem impossibly expensive and economically I have no idea how they would work, but living in others planets of our solar system seems even more impractical, given that they are hell for human life.

>>12410221
I highly doubt the human population will grow to that level on earth as the population and birth rates currently seems to be crashing for every half decent nation, maybe if the whole human population were Africans then sure they would breed endlessly, but in that case we would never go to space anyway.

Nobody wants to live on some shitty cylinder and the cost of producing those things seems astronomically higher that just digging a subterranean city on Mars to house the masses not to mention that a planet can actually produce valuable resources especially if it’s already a dead world so you don’t have to worry about pollution or ruining the environment while a cylinder doesn’t produce anything and the moment supplies are cut the thing would fall into chaos while a planet like Mars actually has the potential to be self sufficient with time and effort as the necessary resources are already there.

I don’t trust Bezos and I feel he has an angle somewhere in all this, but I’m not sure what it is or what he wants in the long term.

Notch in the belt? Maybe it's just too depressing to think this rock is all there is.

>What do we gain from it
Basically the cosmic equivalent of reddit karma

>>12409518
>Realistically, what is the point of sending humans to mars?
Free advertising for Tesla cars. Transfer of public money to Elon's pockets.

>>12409518
Imagine living in one place without internet. The horror.

>>12409518
25-hour days

>>12409801
The ships returning from there were so overloaded with gold and silver that they barely managed to make it

>>12411296
Retarded Spaniards used the gold to decorate their churches instead of investing it in empire building!

>>12409518
For you op?
There is no point, don't worry about it. Let the big boys and girls go to mars, you just stay here and play with your legos anon ok sweetie?

>>12409953
Youre right op, cancel all space exploration boys. It was fun while it lasted.

>>12409832
if people can live amoungst niggers they can handle mars

>>12409813
You're trying too hard

>>12411296
There are more gold and silver in the asteroid belt in ONE asteroid than all the gold and silver ever mined on Earth.

It's a lot easier to mine the asteroid belt with fuel depots and shipyards at Mars than it is to build ships capable of flying out to the asteroid belt and back without refueling.

>>12411346
not an argument.
>>12411341
you are going to stay on earth too. and if you didnt youd wish you did.

>>12409518
>, what is the point of sending humans to mars?

Someone will be the parent of the first child conceived and born on Mars.
Literally the founding father of the Martians.

>>12409518
It's quite easy to colonize.

>>12409925
What makes you think mars will be white only? Incase you haven’t noticed racism has been on the decline for about 200 years now

>>12409518
Expanding the human presence you retard.

>>12410146
The advantages to a rotating space habitat are:
>much less gravity to leave and come back from a habitat Than a planet
>ease of climate control
>ability to build near easy to collect resources

>>12413105
Excuse me, I butchered that statement.

Being that the habitat has much less mass than a planet, the fuel required to leave and come back is like pennies on the dollar vs a planetary body

>>12409518
a steam achievement

>>12411808
So go live on an asteroid then fggtlol

Why not just build a soletta in orbit between mars and the sun to magnify the incoming sunlight, essentially moving mars into the habitable range

>>12411341
Lol bye.

>>12409518
Earth has some finite resources, other celestial bodies represent an industrial renewal in some of those things.

>>12409959
lmao, this is going to play out the same as England's first attempts at colonizing America before puritans and pilgrims did it better over a century afterwards.
Tons of little rich pricks that go on the trip for the novelty and almost immediately either die or seek to go home.
It'll be that x100 when its an inhospitable planet rather than fucking Virginia or whatever.

Couldn't Mars be used for industry? It has no biosphere to destroy and it's significantly colder than earth. The gravity is also lower so you could build a space elevator out of conventional materials and get stuff into orbit far easier than on earth.

>>12409518
Forge world where we export environmentally hazardous industrial processes.

>nuclear powered everything, if you meltdown a reactor lol just move a mile
>spew waste straight into the ground or atmosphere
>slam asteroids into it and scoop up the good bits

>>12409801
what a retarded arguement. eat shit bruh

>>12409518
there's jews on earth

i think we should just use it as a trash can
the earth is way more beautiful

>>12409898
>Research that isn't a snails pace
How
>resource utilization
Which resources?
>extra living space
Bruh you'd be better off living in the deserts for that, at least you got o2 there. Also there isn't a shortage of living space on earth.

Point is, you're borderline retarded.

>>12410063
That's not how it works. You need to have profit off of space for that to be true.

>>12411808
Bruh you don't need more fuel to go 5 km or 50000000 km in space.

>>12409898
In order for Mars to be a back-up earth it needs to be self-sustainable which isn’t possible.

>>12409518
>>12409801
>>12409803
>>12409898
>>12409925
>>12413100
>>12412276
>>12411946
>>12410290
mars is a pile of dust. it's the most moronic thing to want to go there.

space flight would be okay if the pother planets were full of water and trees, but going for dust is a desperate attempt for ADD ridden atheist retards who need goals in their life to avoid committing suicide from boredom

>>12409518
Humans thrive under pressure, like how our technologies advanced extremely rapid in ww1 and ww2. Imagine the all shit that will be developed on an inhospitable planet.

It would be a good staging point for further forays into the wider solar system and possibly beyond, and possibly a good refining location for solar materials. Having a fuckton of iron isn't too useful for spaceflight or aeronautics, but for raw materials processing we could just dump shit on the massive empty expanse of the Martian wastes for collection and refinement by terrestrial vehicles and factories.

>>12414289
False, humans thrive if there's profit in it, there's literally nothing on Mars.

>>12414332
no profit? there's literally resources of the whole planet to collect

>>12414253
>atheist retards who need goals in their life to avoid committing suicide from boredom
kek

To waste money that could have been spent helping with student debt.

>>12409518

A place where to send the outcast, the maladjusted, and the criminal.

>>12414507
Such as?

>>12413109
I suppose it would be good for constructing ships with ease given the low gravity and you wouldn’t need to escape from the earth like for craft today which wastes enormous amounts of fuel, but I suppose my point is that who would even want to live there?

It’s like the space equivalent of moving to norlisk in Siberia, the money is really good, but at the end of the day you are sitting in an isolated settlement that will always be an isolated settlement and the only real industry will be heavy industry and the end goal will always be to use that money to leave. I think of them as necessary just like any ship yard or factory is, but they would never be my end goal.

A planet is a far more attractive destination even if it’s like Mars as the potential is overwhelming while that tube floating in orbit is just a glorified shipyard.

>>12414227
What makes you think that? Underground cities could provide living space, hydroponic farms could provide food, animals could be brought there to be bred and slaughtered, new living space could be carved out, water could be acquired from the caps or possibly from underground as recent studies have said Mars may have underground bodies of water, metals and minerals could be mined, reactors could be created and fuelled by uranium from Mars itself and industry could be set up on the surface without fear of pollution as it’s already a dead world so nothing would hold you back from that.

What’s the problem?

>>12409518
If we are going to mine the asteroid belt (which we will need to with current rate of population growth and consumption), it is better to have a land base that is closer, especially if the Earth is on the other side of the Sun.

>>12414135
>need profit for space
Or Russians. It's not like we made money by going to the moon. It was everything we made along the way that solidified our technical dominance / economic foothold.

>>12415498
>It was everything we made along the way
Friends?

>>12409518

>>12415738
Fren?

>>12409518
It's dumb to go there first at least, the moon should be attempted first since it's easier and if something goes wrong we can deal with it faster. It would also make a good test run

>>12411333
No they took too much and ruined their economy because they weren't smart enough to properly use it alongside the catch 22 of the state power needed to take all that wealth made it impossible to use it properly. It was both evil and stupid on Spain's part and it ended with one continent ruined and one empire dead. Oh and with the loss of massive amounts of knowledge since the spannies were too stupid to not burn libraries. But they sure owned the natives so what a success!

>>12410093
Dude you're a HUGE bootlicker, have a little fucking adventure.

>>12416310
Couldn’t you just assemble a ship in orbit from many different launch’s carrying different sections and parts for this ship then put it together and send it on it’s way?

>>12409518
New tech. If you can build largeish habitats on mars you can probably build very large habitats in inhospitable places on earth.

To learn more about mars, which could inform us about earth.

Can do much larger more dangerous experiments on mars than on earth as no/ far fewer casualties if something goes tits up. Think nuclear, high energy experiments, anything involving incredibly dangerous/toxic chemicals (theres probably huge amounts of undiscovered chemistry just because of what's 'legal/safe' to do in a lab/city surrounded by humans- imagine remote labs on mars? Drilling/ geology (imagine how much we could learn by just digging a massive crater without having to worry about all the things we need to worry about on earth?)

Having humans there allows you to monitor all of the things above and will probably be necessary to a substantial degree.

I think also it would do something to the human 'soul'. Moon is cool and all, but the sun is the same size, you sea earth as a crescent- its 'familiar'- you can see home. Imagine being on a place so distant from earth you couldn't see it in the night sky.

>>12415498
There was no point in going to the moon either, it was all a big dick measuring contest draining trillions. We had technological advancements before and after that, it had nothing to do with it. If anything it stalled it cause that money could have been spent better.

>>12414253
Earth is also a pile of dust with water covering it.

There is no point. If you want to protect mankind from extinction build a asteroid defense. A human colony on Mars will never be sustainable.

>>12416549
That doesn't change the fact that you have to burn more fuel to launch fuel so you have fuel on Mars to launch from mars. One big launch or a bunch of little launches, you still have to pay to get it up there.

All this is moot if we make launches cheap enough.

>>12416638
>New tech.
....you don't even need NASA or space to do this. It's just convince enough people to stop pissing away money into the military, and start investing it into basic research. Which no business wants to do as there's no immediate payout.
....I guess we do invest a lot into weapons research. Like our anti-missile program will every have any prayer of defending us.
Investing into researching how to colonize Mars would directly teach us how to terraform Earth back into you know, something survivable.

>>12416655
There is ENERGY on earth absorbed from the sun by life, if there was oil on mars the usa would have already colonised it, why is /sci/ so retarded.

>>12416717
>Investing into researching how to colonize Mars would directly teach us how to terraform Earth back into you know, something survivable
We already know how to this, we just don't do it cause it's not profitable at the moment.

>>12416698
Who gives a shit about the cost? Unless we are spending an extremely finite resource then it doesn’t matter how much worthless money we spend.

The kikes in the federal reserve printed off trillions out of thin fucking air and lost all of it in the stock market not so long ago, but we ignored that.

Money is not an argument especially for the US which spends god knows how much of drone striking some shithole in the Middle East or making sure Tyrone has plenty of newports to smoke.

>>12410202
The only valid reason is to provide backup in case of life wiping event on Earth.

>>12409953
>Economic difficulties still exist
>implying these are comparable to living on mars in any way shape or form

>>12416840
And that’s a pretty good reason, possibly one of the best reasons ever conceived, but little attention is given to it despite that strangely.

>>12416717
Ok, thats why i mentioned the other things.

>just stop funding the military
Oh yes, just stop that thing which is literally one of the foundations of the current global regime. Yes, very feasible, please outline your plan for global regime change im very interested you have obviously thought this through.

Work with what you have. People get excited about mars, they don't get excited about 'basic research'. Just is, probably always will be.

Living on mars is just another 'basic research'. We don't know how it would turn out, do it anyway, we might learn something.

>You don't need Nasa to do this
very true. But you need a strong state to allocate the money/ force businesses to invest in it.

I think the biggest thing going for mars is it would be cool to have people on mars. In the same way it was 'cool' to fly, before global aviation took off very few people thought it would have any effect.

>>12416837
So this is how government funded /sci/entists think while not producing anything, kek.

>>12416931
Well, we're doing it regardless, so unless said event comes first(not that far fetched) we're good. I wouldn't want to be up there witnessing literal hell on Earth, but it's a non issue in my specific case

>>12409801
fpbp
/thread
brainlet OP btfo