/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12150487
Not suprised when it was you guys who said they over report for safety reasons. So what are you going to do about it since posting it on this site is as useful as writing it in shit in a dumpster.

>>12150487
Losing my remaining specks of respect for you, OP. Could you cite your sources?

>>12150527
Inb4 soijak

Who could have thought. Don't send infected to nursing homes, and the number will go to zero.

>>12150487
>Get hit by car
>Bleed out
"You died from blood loss, not getting hit by a car!"

>>12150487
the CDC is a political tool at the moment. everything they publish is suspect. i trust stats being collected and reported by Johns Hopskins, not a government agency

fuck russians. i hate the firehose of incendiary bullshit they stir. 4chan has been assaulted hard the last few days

>>12150487
it makes be wonder what the definition of death is in other countries and if that could explain why US has the most.

>>12150762
does that mean that pneumonia is listed as a different cause then, for instance? What percentage of covid deaths were from pneumonia?

>>12150783
To be clear, 6% of death certificates *only* listed COVID-19 as the cause of death. If a death certificate lists pneumonia and COVID-19, even if the pneumonia was clearly caused by COVID-19, it wouldn't fall within that 6% since a second cause of death was also listed.

>>12150800
so how does that compare to other countries then? Do they do the retarded amercian shit where you bleed out but die from covid?

>>12150796
That's my understanding. You could have COVID-19, pneumonia, and respiratory failure all on the same death certificate, even though they all had the same root cause. It's up to the clinician. Other comorbidities could also be listed, like diabetes or heart disease. There's a lot of room for judgment, which is why excess deaths are also useful to look at.

>>12150808
I don't know the specifics of other countries, but I remember claims that Italy's death count looked so high because they were counting anyone with the virus as a COVID-19 death even when it wasn't the primary cause of death, whereas other countries were refusing to list COVID-19 as a cause of death unless there was no getting around it. I can't speak to the truth of that, though.

>>12150824
>>12150800
>You could have COVID-19, pneumonia, and respiratory failure all on the same death certificate, even though they all had the same root cause
so do we know what percentage of reported deaths had covid and pneumonia?

>>12150487
100% of covid-19 deaths are covid-19 deaths. The CDC reported (not "admitted") that 6% of those covid-19 deaths had no other underlying conditions. This image makes me feel like humans are not capable of handling industrial society.

>>12150824
>Italy's death count looked so high because they were counting anyone with the virus as a COVID-19 death even when it wasn't the primary cause of death, whereas other countries were refusing to list COVID-19 as a cause of death unless there was no getting around it.
defiantly true but I don't think anyone is willing to go through each country to see how they report deaths. Not after november 4th at least.

>>12150832
if you had 30 things kicking you to your grave, covid did not kill you. What someone should do is find the number of covid deaths that are fairly attributed to covid.

>>12150829
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

Looks like about 45% of COVID-19 deaths also listed pneumonia. What's interesting is there's about 100k pneumonia deaths which apparently aren't being counted as COVID-19 deaths. The USA only averages about 50k annual pneumonia deaths.

>>12150850
>What someone should do is find the number of covid deaths that are fairly attributed to covid.
That would be highly subjective and involve a huge amount of data. A person can be in awful shape and keep going for years if they avoid infection.

>>12150832
100% deaths of people who drank water are water-drinking deaths.

>>12150487
Without a source, all I see is a dead cope for 200000 dead mutts.

Surely by now Americans should have the insight to understand their exceptionalism is not in good things?

>>12150487
Why are there almost exactly 200,000 excess deaths?

it tells me you don't actually understand how death certificates work

Not covid obviously, but the same thing happened with the Spanish Flu. I'm a a bit of a brainlet at bio stuff but the linked study says like 70% of samples had other bacteria present (table 2.) Schizos note that Fauci is an author I guess.

https://doi.org/10.1086/591708

>>12150875
lockdowns cause deaths, so does unemployment. Hospitals don't want to accept people, which causes death. Lots of things about the covid response causes death.

>>12150855
so if there's about 50k extra pneumonia deaths, and 85k covid+pneumonia - influenza deaths, there's probably about 135k true covid deaths. I can't imagine a lot of people had pneumonia symptoms and died of unrelated causes, or at least not a meaningful number.

>Total predicted number of excess deaths since 2/1/2020 across the United States: 201,917 - 262,877
I wonder what could have happened since 2/1/2020 that would cause over 200,000 excess deaths. Must've been a lot of car accidents (oh wait, those actually went down since people are driving less)

>>12150875
Democrats cleansed the nursing homes to save money.

>someone is standing on a tall cliff
>push them off a cliff
>they die
>"ACTUALLY THEY DIED OF STANDING ON A TALL CLIFF"

>a man has heart disease
>he gets shot and his heart stops beating
>AKSHUALLY HE DIED OF HEART DISEASE, NOT THE GUNSHOT

>>12150883
I could be wrong but didn’t they say corona thrives in the cold or am I wrong. If right, their projections are based of that.

>>12150879
>I'm a a bit of a brainlet at bio stuff but the linked study says like 70% of samples had other bacteria present (table 2.)
Yeah, the virus destroyed the cilia and allowed a migration of bacteria into the lungs. So the bacteria did the direct killing, but only after the virus created the pathway. Many deaths involve multiple causes.

>>12150887

More like somone with covid is hanging on a cliff like Mufasa and some nigger (in scrubs) steps on his fingers

>>12150892
lol no, six months ago they were saying corona died in the heat. which was ALWAYS fucking stupid and wrong.

>>12150892
The projections are from:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

The projection is because they estimate how many people should die this year based on past years. So it'll never be exactly accurate (hence the range), but it's a good number to use.

In reality, somewhere around 230,000 people have actually died from coronavirus

>>12150881
>this just in staying home killed 200,000 Americans
damn who knew being a neet was the worlds most dangerous profession

>>12150899
all viruses slow down during the summer retard

>>12150902
>there's nothing that could possibly contribute more deaths this year than corona

>>12150887
Why did they stand on that cliff instead of STAYING THE FUCK HOME?

>>12150909
you're dumb

>>12150530
>>>12150527
>Inb4 soijak

>>12150905
it actually does, unemployment is a serious issue.

>>12150913
No, but still why did they stand on that cliff instead of STAYING THE FUCK HOME? Climbing the cliffs is dangerous, especially if you want to ban others from doing it.

>>12150907
>there's nothing that could possibly contribute more deaths this year than corona
like what? post your sources please and yes suicide, homicide and heart failure are all tracked. So show me the evidence.

>>12150918
if you can't answer that yourself i'm not going to spell it out for you

>>12150487
source: trust me bro it says so right in this pic I made in MS paint

>>12150922
show me the evidence that the extra 230k deaths is purely people dying from corona.

>>12150917
so show me 200k unemployment related deaths, you do have the data right? you wouldn't just repeat something without actually having any evidence whatsoever right?

>>12150931
I never said that there were 200k deaths because of unemployment, that's a strawman

>>12150930
well there's 200k deaths attributed to corona so that's a really fucking good start.

>>12150936
you're missing 30k people so that's really bad for your case

>>12150934
so 190k? 150k? exactly seven? what's the number we're going with here?

>>12150930
>purely
see >>12150888 >>12150887
Just because someone has underlying conditions doesn't mean that coronavirus didn't push them over the edge. The thing that pushed them over the edge is what killed them.

>>12150944
the cdc pretty much counts death like that anyway so where did the extra 30k deaths come from

>>12150923
You surely can't answer that too, because your lockdownism totally crashes after that.

Options for why an extra 200,000-263,000 people died:
>war on the homefront
>some kind of disease or plague
>???
Are there even any other options? Is this entire thread just cope from fat mutts?

>>12150937
not really, it just means we have a few corona deaths which weren't properly identified which is very likely considering how poor American access to healthcare can be. Combined with margins of error in calculating excess deaths as well as some other causes of death increasing with lockdown, the numbers all add up pretty well. It's certainly a whole lot better than the "corona is a hoax and 200k people died jerking off" narrative you're running with.

>>12150953
The official toll is ~200,000. Excess deaths is explained on https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

>>12150939
>https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/explaining-the-link-between-unemployment-deaths-amid-coronavirus/
>The actual figure in academic research is a 37,000 increase for each percentage-point rise in the unemployment rate. It comes from a book called “Corporate Flight: The Causes and Consequences of Economic Dislocation” by Barry Bluestone, Bennett Harrison and Lawrence Baker.

maybe thats not accurate for the current situation but employment is something you need to consder aswell as lockdowns and hospitals refusing patients, or people not wanting to seek medicare under fear of corona.

>>12150964
those deaths are all still tracked though, citing some dudes book doesn't help your case much especially as everything mentioned takes time to actually kill people, not to mention federal relief like increasing unemployment payout helps the issue quite a bit.

>>12150930
Not that anon, but the CDC lists 300k deaths combined for influenza, COVID-19, and pneumonia over the past 7-8 months.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/index.htm

The USA averages anywhere from 50k-65k flu and pneumonia deaths combined annually.
https://www.lung.org/getmedia/98f088b5-3fd7-4c43-a490-ba8f4747bd4d/pi-trend-report.pdf.pdf

Subtracting the difference leaves 235k-250k extra deaths.

>>12150959
>not really, it just means we have a few corona deaths which weren't properly identified which is very likely considering how poor American access to healthcare can be
again prove it. hospitals are subsidized for corona deaths and current politics will make more people have corona on their death certificate, so they're doing the best they can to get those death numbers up.

>It's certainly a whole lot better than the "corona is a hoax and 200k people died jerking off" narrative you're running with.
not really, but if you want to talk about the population that's dying (people at life expectancy with underlying conditions) it's not that bad

>>12150958
>war on the homefront
Otherwise known as lockdowns.

Damage control by the Trump admin

>>12150981
>hospitals are subsidized for corona deaths
Not everyone dies in the hospital.

>>12150981
not everyone makes it to a hospital, not every corpse gets tested. It's just the sad reality of for profit heath care.

>>12150964
>“According to one study [the one by Bluestone et al.] a 1 percent increase in the unemployment rate will be associated with 37,000 deaths [including 20,000 heart attacks], 920 suicides, 650 homicides, 4,000 state mental hospital admissions and 3,300 state prison admissions.”
Even if you say that's annualized, that means there should have been 127,033 deaths and 3,090 suicides between March and August 2020.

Where are they?

>>12150998
fucked up the numbers on the suicides, it should've been 3159 over that timespan

>>12150882
This is false. Those people would still be alive if it weren't for Covid-19. The best way to examine how many people have died from Covid-19 is excess deaths
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Based on Excess Deaths up to this point about 250,000 people have died because of Covid.

Masks are the reason why people are dying.

>>12150995
it's for profit if they get money for putting covid on a death certificate, dead people can be transported to a hospital to get said death certificate

>>12151011
is that really the best way? I'm not so sure.
I think the best way would be to look at the specific numbers of pneumonia deaths and covid deaths as recorded by hospitals. Looking at total excess deaths is helpful for an estimation, but it's also just an estimation. It would be a lot more convincing if we could also account for deaths due to overfilled hospitals and suicides for example.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/05/26/nursing-homes-assisted-living-facilities-0-6-of-the-u-s-population-43-of-u-s-covid-19-deaths/amp/

>>12151033
>is that really the best way? I'm not so sure.
no epidemiologist would seriously say all excess deaths are due to covid.

>>12151033
you can't admit a corpse, medicare only pays out when a patient is discharged, (dead or alive) but if they're dead on arrival they're not admitted, they're sent to the morgue it's an entirely different process, and if hospitals are pretending corpses are alive so they can get paid that's kind of a huge deal that leaves mile long paper trails.

>>12151058
>if hospitals are pretending corpses are alive so they can get paid that's kind of a huge deal that leaves mile long paper trails.
are they doing that? I didn't imply they were.

>>12151063
my bad meant to reply to >>12151029 who just straight up said it.

It's true, but it does not matter. If the number of deaths will be 17 times larger, not smaller, even then if you want to stay home you must do it yourself.

>>12151058
you would be right then but the original point you made (not everyone makes it to hospitals) is a bit silly because they would still try to over count corona deaths if they get more money from it, and I can't imagine many people on their death bed sick would not make it to the hospital with a 911 call.

>>12151084
>https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/more-people-in-district-dying-outside-of-hospitals-during-pandemic/2020/05/04/cd6e7ea6-8cdf-11ea-8ac1-bfb250876b7a_story.html
happens all the time, more often during the pandemic. I'm definitely not saying everyone who dies outside the hospital died of covid, but if there's a clear cause of death like heart failure there's no reason to test for covid (even if that's actually what killed them.) so cases slip through the cracks. and it's worth noting hospitals don't get paid for a death you get paid for discharging a patient diagnosed with corona, you can't admit a corpse.

>>12151108
>but if there's a clear cause of death like heart failure there's no reason to test for covid
That’s a problem though. You can count a death as covid through probable cause, which means you can die of covid even if you don’t have it.

On a side note I wonder if George Floyd died of covid as he tested positive and died of respiratory failure

>>12150824
So how can you prove that the Covid was not the reason the person died? It's not like you can simulate how the person would react to only having pneumonia for instance, so it is not really a false death cause.

>>12150487
It makes me feel sad, i used to trust science 10 years ago, now it is has 0 credibility.

Honest question.
Can someone tell me how some people are cured from covid, while theres no patented vaccine yet.

>>12151941
Urbanites, obese and elderly often lack vitamin D, while not enough to to cause rickets (which is what the recommended daily dosage is based on) so enough to set back the immune system.
Dr John Campbell presents a big meta study here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5yVGmfivAk

>>12150916
>Obvious plebbitor
You have to go back.

>>12150487
CORONAHOAX !!!!!!

bump

>>12150773

>its the russians guiz1!!!11

>>12150902

>its not economic collapse, job losses, people not showing up to hospital and lockdown induced suicides

>>12151011
>>12155328

>the excess of deaths has nothing to do with lockdowns, economic collapse and people to scared to see medical treatment for other conditions

hysterical covid bed wetters are some of the biggest retards on the planet right now

>>12150885
anon...

>>12150487
No. 6% of the ifected die.

>>12150487
It reminds me that nobody dies from smoking

>>12155333
Absolutely.

Pic related, struggling Americans unable to cope without their children’s snacks.

>>12155333
anyone unironically posing for photo ops in labcoats have a 100% chance of being absolute grifters

>>12155328
as people have said numerous times all those things are tracked. Post your numbers you do have evidence right? You wouldn't just mindlessly regurgitate something without evidence right?

>>12155391

post yours.

>>12155395
>https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fcoronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fcases-updates%2Fcases-in-us.html#cases_casesinlast7days
sure here you go
damn that was easy.

>>12150487
I know the corona-chan shit is exaggerated but has anybody here actually gotten fairly sick from it and still feeling like they're not totally recovered?
>normally a healthy athletic person
>got covid in march
>it took almost a month to mostly recover
>fast forward to now and I cant even just match the exercise workload I was adhering to before getting sick in march
Its like after 40 minutes I just cant recover even with a long break. I just get fucking winded and it feels like im sick again with that pressure in my chest. Anybody else having this problem? When I got sick it was mild but abnormal I'd never had a flu that only caused lung pain, shortness of breath, and fatigue with barely any cough. No sneezing, no stuffed nose, only 1 or 2 nights of fever and nearly fainting from just walking around in the mid-day sun.

>>12155397
i'm not even sure what the point of this image is, is it trying to say that the intelligence agency's are so incompetent that their information is exactly as good as literal who journalists who's only source at the time was literal Chinese propaganda?

>>12155404
>corona-chan shit is exaggerated but, lol, anyone else hamstrung for a year from this virus?

Bro, sometimes 4chan is the place that’s most full of shit. It’s okay.

>>12150487

>Can look at the average deaths per month for every month in every major city around the world going back decades
>Notice that the months of March-September have unmitigated, unexplained, statistically significant spikes in death tolls

It's gotta be from something. Every city around the world experienced a major increase in deaths these past 7 months. These are unexplainable deaths. They don't fit in line with every other month, or every other April/May for the past decade. And it's every city. Not just Toronto, or New York. Every city in the world has an increase in mortality.

If it's not covid? What is it?

>inb4 Ugh ackshully, it's not "covid" that's doing the killing, it only leads to death by another disease

>>12155333
>people to scared to see medical treatment for other conditions
I haven't seen an excess of deaths for "other conditions." Do you have the numbers?

>>12155447
>If it's not covid? What is it?
Lockdowns of course. Do you think that terrorizing the population and forcing it under house arrests is harmless?

>>12156316
Do you have stats for all these masturbation related fatalities?

>>12155447
Suicides are way up, so are murders, and domestic abuse cases.

>>12150875
JEEEEEEEEEEEWS

>It's just a flu, broinho

>>12150850
>if you had 30 things kicking you to your grave, covid did not kill you.
If you would've lived if not for getting covid, then yes, covid did kill you.

>>12150881
Somehow in other countries where people actually followed all these rules a lot more stringently, fewer people died.

>>12150937
There are about that many more "pneumonia" deaths than usual this year

>>12157202
Sweden didn't, and it has fewer deaths compared to USA.

>>12157252
but much more than they should have

>>12150487
It makes me feel like you shouldnt do research via facebook posts

>>12150487
>have diabetes
>fatal car crash
>conservatives label my death as from diabetes
excellent work, /sci/

>>12157263

>>12157388
That's nice, what the fuck does it have to do with lockdowns?

>>12157631
It shows that mask are trash.

>>12157663
Masks mentioned three times in this thread, and you're responsible for at least two of those times, including when it had nothing to do with the discussion. Good job.

>>12150850
If you strangle someone on their deathbed, you have still killed them.

>China already back to partying and living like normal
>nobody even knows a friend’s mothers cousins grandma’s acquaintance that’s died to this disease
>hysterics think we need to wait for a vaccine or that a vaccine is going to magically make a virus go away

There are several levels of retardation going on at this point

>>12155333
literally not experts

>>12157670
Good, we can then conclude that masks are evil and continue discussing other stuff.

>>12150875
Deaths reported as "death with Covid" which means the person died but not as a result of the disease itself. Most of these will be people with serious comorbidities like serious heart troubles, morbid obesity, prior lung injury/disease (smokers, people who worked around asbestos without PPE, etc), people with renal injury, people with significant immune compromise (diabetics, AIDs sufferers, people with genetic disorders, etc). A goodly portion although one which hasn't really been quantified is people who died violently but were also sick with Covid. Car crashes, shootings, suicides, major falls, etc, instead of being counted in their particular categories have instead been fallaciously added to the "with Covid" count to increase it's size.
The truth is though, even if the death counter were 100% deaths FROM Covid-19, it still wouldn't justify the enormously long term damage in terms of other deaths (suicides, preventable serious illness, privation) which have resulted from the transfer of medical resources and isolation, or what will now be decades of difficult to reverse economic damage in both the US and the rest of the world.

Already something like an extra 10k kids and probably at least as many adults are dying of privation globally each week due to resource strangulation caused by Covid lockdowns. That's 480,000 people, assuming six months of quarantine shortage. It will exceed 500,000 before this meme quarantine ends.

>>12157860
>nobody even knows a friend’s mothers cousins grandma’s acquaintance that’s died to this disease
You must have a really small social circle. No one I'm close to has died, but I've known a handful of people that passed away.

>>12150762
There are 0 pneumonia deaths this year, don't you think that's a little suspicious.

>>12150487
Not surprised. The whole thing is politicized.

>>12157871
>Deaths reported as "death with Covid" which means the person died but not as a result of the disease itself.
Not it doesn't. This has been covered. If someone dies from pneumonia that was caused by COVID-19, and both are listed on the death certificate, then it wouldn't fall within that 6%. Are you really going to claim the virus wasn't at fault in that situation?

>Most of these will be people with serious comorbidities like serious heart troubles, morbid obesity, prior lung injury/disease
Maybe. Slightly elevated blood pressure and arthritis would also fall under comorbidities. Not every comorbidity is particularly serious or life threatening.

>A goodly portion although one which hasn't really been quantified is people who died violently but were also sick with Covid. Car crashes, shootings, suicides, major falls, etc, instead of being counted in their particular categories have instead been fallaciously added to the "with Covid" count to increase it's size.
We're at 150k excess pneumonia deaths alone, and you're going to attribute that to car crashes and shootings? Come on. All you're arguing for is why you believe the COVID-19 death count is exaggerated, but you're not answering why the overall death rate for the country is elevated, and coincidentally the number of excess deaths lines up very closely with the total number of deaths attributed to the virus.

>>12157904
What in the world are you talking about? There's been 200k pneumonia deaths in the USA since February. The annual average is around 50k.

>>12150879
it's almost like secondary bacterial infections are a direct consequence of severe viral infections or something like that

>>12150487

Anyone remember how the disinfect the Streets in China cause covid is that lethal?

>>12157860
>China already back to partying and living like normal
China is pretending, you know that, right?
Do you actually trust the chinks to tell you the truth?

>>12157940

No I don’t anon, which is why I think they released false hysteria at the start of this outbreak to put a dent in the re election chances of their biggest political opponent in 50 years

And now they’re showing their true colors with the job done. Not bothering to keep track of “COVID deaths” anymore, fucking about again.

>>12157943
So, why is it happening now and not in 2016?
Surely they'd have liked Hillary, no?

>>12157947
Because in 2016 Obama was a president?

>>12157948
But in 2016 he wasn't up for reelection, was he?

>>12157947

Because no one thought he would win, or ACTUALLY go after trade with China. He’s shifted the entire Overton window and put the microscope on them and that’s disastrous for their plan of overtaking the US by 2030 or whatever it is now. Look at how easy it was to spoil Westerners into hiding. Indian people live on top of each other in poverty shacks and have barely noticed anything. It’s all about how much you want to care, some people aren’t letting a good crisis go to waste.

>>12157916
I'm not going to claim absolute knowledge about any of this shit, especially considering how shifty and politically charged the subject has become. I would want to assume that there would be a deliniation between pre-existing comorbidites and post-infection comorbidities.
Considering that the group making up the supermajority of Coof-19 deaths is people within the age range of 70-80, followed closely by the superminority composed of people in the 60-70 range, I'd wager that their list of pre-Coof comorbidities is going to be pretty fucking long, especially (unfortunately) in America.
Many of them will be obese, have some degree of heart and renal failure, many of them will have decreased lung function, many of them will be diabetic. A good portion of them will have at least two of these conditions layered on top of one another, and a non-insignificant number will have some degree of ALL of these conditions at once.
When discussing pneumonia deaths it is necessary to remember that the elderly are much more likely to develop pneumonia after contracting any respiratory disease, whether it's Coof-19, the Flu, a bacterial or mold infection, or any other lung irritation/injury.
I haven't seen the 150k excess pneumonia deaths number outside of this thread, but even if I were to grant 150k Covid deaths as opposed to say, 30-50k, that would still in no way justify the level of damage done to the US specifically or the global population generally by draconian quarantines. That number is still less than half of the people dying of resource privation due exclusively to quarantine measures radically curtailing shipping and strangulating lines of logistics worldwide.

Given a few more weeks the number of people who have died of a serious illness, starved to death, died because of a lack of access to a drug, etc will be triple that of those who die in the US due to Covid, and it will keep growing as long as the quarantine holds.

>>12157952
Yes, but he supported Hillary, meanwhile Trump clearly does not support Biden.

>>12150881
oh so all those traffic fatalities that didn't happen and all the bar fights that didn't happen - all that reduction ... conspiracy?
You got it tho.
Man i hope I don't end up unemployed for months.
Did that a couple times.
No idea I was narrowly escaping death...

>>12150984
Yes, everything about you is so much more plausible than the idea we have infectious diseases that spread and can cause harm and we can reduce that with paper...

>>12156316
I'm shocked that you can delude yourself into thinking most of the deaths were people in lockdown/came after lockdowns

>>12158053
Yes, we have a seasonal cold which used as an excuse to introduce total abuse of human rights and economy (and it does not even work).

>>12158059
Who could have thought that terrorizing, impoverishing people and arresting people can affect them badly.

>>12157955
how do you take the results of Covid-19 out of the context of the response, then pretend that result would be the same with none of the responses taken, so therefore the responses shouldn't have happened or continue to?
That's not even basic level thinking...

>>12158065
Yet strangely does none of this in other places where even more of these 'abuses' are enforced?
So strange, huh?

>>12158065
don't go figure out worldwide what percentage of deaths occurred before lockdowns, it'll fuck up your 'theory'

>>12155325
pic fucking related
fuck off, sergei

Remember, if you think that covid is scary, stay the fuck home. And if you go out, don't blame others for your cough.

>>12158069
Can't speak for every country which got hit by Covid, but the US response was really fucking sloppy and came way too late to actually catch the bug before it could start spreading.
Our measures have been weak mitigants compared to much stronger measures like immediate institution of complete border lockdowns and rapid quarantine+contact tracing, which is by a large margin the strongest tool against the spread of any disease.
If we had zero masking and social distancing but all the same effort had been put into border and flight control and contact tracing plus quarantine this whole thing could probably have been over within the first couple months, instead of dragging on for now more than half a year.

This response shouldn't have happened, it represents nothing much more than an enormous waste of resources (both lives, materiel, money and time) for a dubious gain. Certainly, incontrovertibly, the measures taken have utterly failed to stop the spread of the disease through populations.

>>12158088
Shutting down the border is racist. Every person on Earth has a human right to enter the United States any time they please. We are on the right side of history.

>>12150487
That's, medical speaking, so dumb that I forgot English too.
Normal flu kills people because it get them weaker.
Covid is the super sayan flu.
They die because they have, I don't know, cancer?
Covid is the nail in the coffin.
No covid = more chance to live.
Covid while already sick = almost fucked.
They'll write you died 'cuz of cancer now, but Covid really fucked your situation.
We will find a way to contain it, but this not the time to play stupid games like "no mask" or "the Illuminati want to control me with a chip that can pass through capillaries"

>>12158115
Don't play games, just avoid wearing masks or taking chips/vaccines as much as you can.

>>12158086
>Remember, if you think getting murdered is scary, stay the fuck home. And if you go out, don't blame others if you're murdered.
Sounds like sage advice.

>>12158139
I'm against these new "vaccines".
It's nearly impossible to have a vaccine for covid now.
About mask, dude, do wtf you want. I can only say to you that face shield and mask will aid you in crowed place.

>>12157871
>A goodly portion although one which hasn't really been quantified is people who died violently but were also sick with Covid. Car crashes, shootings, suicides, major falls, etc, instead of being counted in their particular categories have instead been fallaciously added to the "with Covid" count to increase it's size.
I see "hoaxers" bring this up all the time but I'm going to need to see some evidence of this actually happening, let alone on a large scale, before I'm willing to believe something so outlandish as this.

America is that guy in the zombie movie who gets bit and doesn't tell anyone because he doesn't think it's that serious.

>>12150881
Lol

>>12150487
Nice source /pol/
Reminder to sage

>>12159515
Meanwhile Sweden is like that guy who gets bit, does nothing and then it just stops.

>>12158146
If you go out to murder others, then indeed don't go out.
Remember, said above is not some strawman or hyperbole, that's what lockdownists literally claim. So if they will stay home forever, it will be sage indeed.

>>12160255
but people are dropping like flies there.

>>12160304
They actually don't, deaths basically stopped there.

>>12160310
yes, why? Maybe they did something to make them stop?

>>12160322
Judging by the fact that they did no lockdown or masks, not these things.

>>12160322
Cases are starting to rise again and Sweden's government is considering adding restrictions.

>>12161744
>>12160341
they already had restrictions and of course summer is easy. the real pandemic starts now.

>>12161748
>the real pandemic starts now.
...in lockdown countries.

>>12161757
of course, the us is in the middle of the first wave.

>>12161744
No, in September they will have less deaths than in August (which had less deaths than already minuscule July number).

>>12161760
That's what lockdowns do with you. Happily many places are reconsidering it (for example Florida is lifting many restrictions today).

>>12161757
Not even Sweden's chief epidemiologist agrees with you.

>>12161763
>No
Yes.

>>12161764
Yes, it buys you time to prepare, time you did not have initially.
What I am describing is a good thing not a bad thing

>>12161765
I can simply look at the official data (we can believe it, right?)
By the way, a couple of days ago lockdownist Mexico overcame Sweden by death per capita.

>>12161767
Then STAY THE FUCK home. You don't want to get corona, right?

>>12161776
You admire Sweden's response, and the man responsible for orchestrating that response is on record saying the pandemic is ongoing for the country and that increased restrictions are being considered.

>>12161776
yes, but Mexico is a third world country.
Why don't we use a fairer comparison like France or Germany?

>>12161782
>Talking about Sweden
>Goes way off topic
Are you the same anon that does that in every covid-related thread?

>>12161783
>You admire Sweden's response
I absolutely don't. As you mentioned, it had some restrictions, and corona merited none. But in the country of the blind (quadruple amputees) one-eyed is the king, and Sweden (with few other countries) indeed managed better than others.
>and that increased restrictions are being considered.
So call me when they will be implemented. Meanwhile I will continue to point that
>No, in September they will have less deaths than in August (which had less deaths than already minuscule July number).

>>12161787
Your
>>yes
>no
shitpost does not deserve even that.

>>12161791
You'll continue to point out something that I never brought up? Cool, real useful.

>>12161793
Because you didn't refute what I said, and you're flat out wrong if you actually read what I wrote.

>>12150487
Just lost my job and business over this, it's cool.

>>12161784
>yes, but Mexico is a third world country.
That's not an argument in favour of Mexico. If we'll look at the fraction of population above 65, Mexico will do three times worse than Sweden, not a bit worse.
>Why don't we use a fairer comparison like France or Germany?
Or Spain. Or Belgium. Or Italy. Or USA. Or specifically New York. Not that it's very relevant, because corona stats don't matter, only the amount of abuse does.

>>12161801
What are you even arguing for? that the government should not care about public health in general? Is that what you believe?

>>12161797
You engage in fortune-telling, meanwhile I show you simple fact: Sweden has the least amount of coronist abuse, Sweden didn't do orders worse that the worst cases (in fact, it did better than many), and now corona basically stopped in Sweden.

>>12161810
You think it's not going to come back?

>>12161794
Of course I will point at something if it will prove my point. Even if you don't like it.

>>12161807
Imposing lockdowns that kill 10 times the people they save and 100 times the years left in their lives isn't caring for public health.

>>12161810
>You engage in fortune-telling
I told you two facts. 1. Sweden's cases are on the rise again (highest daily average since the beginning of July) and 2. They're considering new restrictions. Where's the fortune telling?

>>12161818
What you mean to say is you'll change the point if the one being made doesn't suit your purpose.

>>12150487

>>12161823
where is the evidence that lockdown measures coupled with social security measures kill peple?

>>12161807
I argue that
1)Corona promised certain harm, but
2)Governments used it as an occasion to destroy economies and gravely abuse any human right with every anti-corona measure which is infinitely worse than epidemics itself
3)...and they also failed to defeat corona (but that's just a bonus)

I also argue that if you support lockdowns, you should stay home forever. That would be only honest.

>>12161815
It coming back is not a big deal by itself. But it also has much larger chances to come back in countries which did lockdowns, so they will get both lockdown abuse and corona.

>>12161834
People who lose their jobs start to drink and kill themselves, people stuck inside drink and kill themselves, with economy down there's less funding for social security, healthcare and education which leads to more people dying etc. etc. It's not a hard concept to understand. And the victims here won't be 82 who would have died at 83 anyways either.

>>12161825
Great, Swedish July death rate was already minuscule, so it's literally nothing. If they are "considering" restrictions, that's abusive too, but actual abuse will happen only if they will implement the restrictions. So come back when they will get deaths per day comparable to US or will actually implement something.

>>12161831
No, my point is absolutely clear: measures against corona are infinitely worse than corona itself.

>>12161852
>July death rate was already minuscule, so it's literally nothing.
Nope, it it something. Literally nothing would literally mean zero.

>but actual abuse will happen only if they will implement the restrictions.
They already have restrictions, they've been in place since March. These would be increased restrictions. So now you know Sweden is abusive too.

>>12161860
>measures against corona are infinitely worse than corona itself.
Yes, that's a very nice opinion. Wrong, but nice.

>>12161835
>Governments used it as an occasion to destroy economies and gravely abuse any human right
How do they benefit from that? Putting yourself into a bad position like that on purpose must be some 5D chess?

>>12161844
>It coming back is not a big deal by itself
Why do you desperately want it to be not serious?

>>12161851
So maybe you should combine your public health measures with things that prevent these bad things from happening?
that sounds like a good strategy

>>12161863
>Literally nothing would literally mean zero.
Wow, anon, you are truly a genius! Literally nothing means literally zero! First-grade-nobel-worthy.
>They already have restrictions, they've been in place since March. These would be increased restrictions.
That's definitely an abuse too, but it's nothing compared to many other countries which turned into North Korea overnight.
>So now you know Sweden is abusive too.
Of course. See >>12161791
>>You admire Sweden's response
>I absolutely don't. As you mentioned, it had some restrictions, and corona merited none. But in the country of the blind (quadruple amputees) one-eyed is the king, and Sweden (with few other countries) indeed managed better than others.

>>12161881
Yes like no lockdown and getting people back to their jobs before the economy collapses and causes these things glad you agree.

>>12161890
or maybe you can do a thing so people don't get fired in those 4 weeks you need to reset the pandemic?

>>12161873
>How do they benefit from that?
How does Chinese government benefit from their social rating system (and other stuff)? How does North Korea government benefit from their system? By the way, these two countries supposedly defeated corona just great. Should we copy their system?
>Why do you desperately want it to be not serious?
I don't care if it is serious or not serious. I know that anti-corona measures are extremely serious and dystopic and I want their architects to be defeated one way or another.

>>12161887
>Wow, anon, you are truly a genius! Literally nothing means literally zero! First-grade-nobel-worthy.
Nice sarcasm, so then I wonder why you chose to use "literally nothing" when you were literally incorrect and the deaths aren't literally zero.

>>12161869
If you think that it is wrong, you are free to forever stay home by yourself. Practice what you preach.

>>12161898
This might come as a surprise but you can't just expect companies to keep people around that don't work. This is doubly asinine when you are also the one forbidding them from working to save themselves by causing them to die. Even if you prevent people from being fired now the longer you keep a lockdown going the worse the economy will get and most businesses will lose customers and have to downsize regardless.
It's a non-commie thing you wouldn't understand.

>>12161904
>Practice what you preach.
Okay, but first, maybe you can tell me what I'm preaching.

>>12161902
Because there is a level of deaths which still not merited any of the response, but was noticeable enough (in Sweden it ended several months ago, in USA it continues). But several deaths a day in a large country is literally statistical noise which can easily be called "literally nothing".

>>12161908
this might comes as a surprise, but the government has power over corporations.

>>12161911
>But several deaths a day in a large country is literally statistical noise which can easily be called "literally nothing".
Haha, no it can't.

>>12161915
Yes and those corporations will go bankrupt, you can't make a law that says "nooooo you can't just run out of money!!!"
So now you suggest government pays corporations to keep people on the payroll but not do anything because the government forbids them from doing so as an attempt to save the people by causing them to die.

>>12161909
Let's see. You supposedly support lockdowns (past, present and presumable future). You are OK with government literally threatening you fine or arrest for exiting your house. You also fear corona and think that it is deadly. So if you will stay home forever it will be perfectly logical. This way nothing abusive will happen with you (house arrest isn't abuse) and your chances to catch corona will be minuscule. If you will limit it t yourself, I will have nothing against you.

>>12161924
Yes, that's what civilized countries did.

>>12161927
And they are killing people doing it.

>>12161924
>an attempt to save the people by causing them to die.
So you're dealing with hypotheticals and fortune telling when there's literally people dying right now from the virus.

>>12161930
But they're not, according to >>12161851.

>>12161920
No, it perfectly can. But I see: now you don't need even any noticeable number of deaths. One death (or one cough, why not?) somewhere is enough for you to put everyone under house arrest again. Anon, I'm very sorry, but that's an insane position and if I'll be able to do anything against its promoters, I will do that.

>>12161931
There's nothing hypotethical about people resorting to alcoholism, food or drugs when you rob them of their work.

>when there's literally people dying right now from the virus.
And the lockdowns are literally killing 10 times as many people and those people won't be 82 year olds scheduled to die in a year.

>>12161933
Governments aren't putting people back to work, they are locking down which kills people.

>>12161931
>people dying right now from the virus.
How did they catch it?

>>12161937
>Governments aren't putting people back to work
But if people don't get fired they don't become alcoholics, according to your logic

>>12161942
They are getting fired, unemployment is at all time high and so is social isolation which again kills people.

>>12161935
>No, it perfectly can.
Nope. The rest of your post has no point, you were wrong and that's all there is to it.

>>12161937
>There's nothing hypotethical about people resorting to alcoholism, food or drugs when you rob them of their work.
Actually there is.

>And the lockdowns are literally killing 10 times as many people and those people won't be 82 year olds scheduled to die in a year.
*Literally* 10 times as many people you say? Really? Wow, that's a lot. Amazing, considering 10 times as many people dying would create an excess death rate of around 100%. Why isn't that being reflected in the death rates?

>>12161951
>Nope. The rest of your post has no point, you were wrong and that's all there is to it.
No, Swedish covid deaths are still literally nothing (and if they are something, then I wonder what USA deaths are).

>>12161951
Alcoholism doesn't kill people instantly. You will see them trickle in over the next few years like usual. And are you honestly saying alcoholism or drugs doesn't kill people? Not sure if retarded or pretending to be retarded.
In either case
>>>/pol/

>>12161951
All deaths are rewritten as covid, see the oppost.

>>12161953
Sure, and someone who eats an entire steak is literally a vegetarian because 1 is almost 0.

>>12161955
>You will see them trickle in over the next few years like usual.
Anon, quit fortune telling! Listen to >>12161810

>>12161956
Haha, yes, they're faking the death certificates, and damn if those thousands of clinicians aren't in on it too, adding pneumonia as a cause of death as well so it looks believable!

>>12161960
Thanks for the link:
>Lockdownist USA: literally order of magnitude more deaths in a day than Sweden has in a month.
But surely Sweden will fail, right?

>>12161966
>But surely Sweden will fail, right?
You're the fortune teller, anon.

>>12161965
I mean, if you will add "haha" to your post, it will not become false.

>>12161957
Compared to someone who eats 100 steaks in a day? Yes.

>>12161971
Cool. Can you produce evidence that clinicians are falsely labeling deaths as pneumonia?

>>12161970
Yes, my fortune-teller friend, that's the actual present data. You don't need to use your mystical power to see it.

>>12161980
Can you produce evidence that clinicians are truthfully labeling deaths as pneumonia?

>>12161985
The majority of unemployed people are happy.

By the way, a little almost-unrelated riddle. Let's say that a man lives in a city hour-walk away from his work. His city has some epidemics (corona or something even worse). The man wants to get to his workplace, so he
a)Drives his car
b)Just walks
c)Rides a bicycle
d)Takes a bus
e)Takes a subway
In what case he has the largest/smallest chance to catch the disease? Or to spread it if he has one?

>>12161994
If they have huge savings or rent income, then sure.

>>12161994
That's because Ministry of Happiness supports them.

>>12161966
It's really not fair to compare third world nations to first world.

>>12161873
>Why do you desperately want it to be not serious?
It's a strange question, do you *want* it to be serious?

>>12162949
Nobody does, but the whole narrative of the people who oppose any measures taken is roughly "I do not want a global pandemic that forces me to change the way i live to be a real thing that is happening". This is at the core of the rhetoric. It's varying graduations from "this thing isn't real" to "this thing isn't actually bad", because it's scary to admit someone major is happening nobody really has any control over.

>>12162008
e > d > a > c > b is what you want me to say. But consider that a has a lot of other issues associated with it, especially in systems that aren't designed to accommodate that.

>>12163379
> a > c > b
How did you get that? Do you think that driving your car alone, with the closed window (or even open, does not change much) and arriving in less than 10 minutes is more infectious that cycling for 20-30 minutes, partially through the busy streets? Or even taking a hourly walk, again partially through busy streets?

>>12163373
But that's also very true about pro-lockdown people. You can think "sure, we have pandemics, but government is filled with kind people who know what they are doing. they surely will defeat it, and then restore the economy, undo the emergency and make life good again". That's way more reassuring than thinking "we are governed by people who used the somewhat bad seasonal disease to put unprecedented freedom-restricting measures on people and destroy economy and people's well-being. even if the corona cause will disappear tomorrow, we are still governed by the said malignant people, and they will soon use some new excuse to make things way worse." Now that's a pessimistic view and to avoid it one can bend his mind a lot.

>>12163465
But the crucial difference is: The government has an obligation and a strong incentive to do no more than it needs to and to restore things to the way they were. You can say that they are making a mistake in their approach to the problem, but for them it is still better than the inaction you propose.

>we are governed by people who used the somewhat bad seasonal disease to put unprecedented freedom-restricting measures on people and destroy economy and people's well-being. even if the corona cause will disappear tomorrow, we are still governed by the said malignant people, and they will soon use some new excuse to make things way worse
Tell me how specifically a first world government benefits from doing that. It makes them weaker, not stronger. It takes away legitimacy and electability. What you do not understand is that in the civilized world the government is beholden to the people to take effective measures in a crisis. What these measures are or whether you like them or not is irrelevant. The government can't sit and do nothing.
It's not mental gymnastics to say the government does things to keep winning elections at all, is it? It's the most natural and logical thing.

>the somewhat bad seasonal disease
but it's not a seasonal disease, it's a new disease we knew nothing about in February or in March other than "it gives people pneumonia and then they die" and "it spreads rapidly and invisibly". What if it was more serious, what if there were long term complications we weren't aware of in February or March? Taking drastic action was 100% the right move, no matter how much you dislike it.

>>12163477
>The government has an obligation and a strong incentive to do no more than it needs to and to restore things to the way they were. You can say that they are making a mistake in their approach to the problem, but for them it is still better than the inaction you propose.
I think that government is filled with people way more clever and way more powerful than me. They are also politicians, so people of very dubious moral standards. That means that explaining something by their stupidity is far less sound than explaining it by the calculated malice.
>Tell me how specifically a first world government benefits from doing that.
1)Introducing Chinese style social rating system. If China can do it, why can't others?
2)Introducing total automatic surveillance. You know, to prevent corona and crimes and such.
3)Giving profits to the certain medical industries.
4)Checking if you can force most people to stop working, either as a drill or as a way to move them to ubi state (which isn't as good as it sounds) or, if you want to go completely dark, eliminate
5)Making small businesses go broke and then concentrating everything in larger monopolies.
6)Banning travel. There was such a movement, it was promoted due to the supposed climate reasons
7)Reducing consumption (otherwise known as making people way poorer).
8)If you want a bit more conspiracy: China decided that West is more fragile, so by tricking them into lockdowns it hurt the competitor. Or Europe decided that America is now very fragile, so introducing lockdowns by yourself will give them a bad example and will help to eliminate the competitor again.
9)Checking how many states will obey the directives coming from the central authority.
By the way, every point above is actually happening. So you can only claim that it is happening due to politician stupidity, but that is discussed further above.

>>12163477
>but it's not a seasonal disease, it's a new disease we knew nothing about in February or in March other than "it gives people pneumonia and then they die" and "it spreads rapidly and invisibly".
Even then it was known that mortality rate can be and median age of dead is close to 80. Such a disease merits "do nothing with young people, recommend old people to be careful and maybe introduce special regime at places like nursing homes" response, not the craze we got. But first month has at least some excuse. When you continue to crush economy and abuse people after more than half-year and don't intend to ever stop, then it's clear that your goals are pretty different.

>>12163555
>I think that government is filled with people way more clever and way more powerful than me
Well, you don't have to look far to find that politicians are usually very stupid and incompetent. It's so naive to the people who run the country are highly competent. They aren't. They have a particular set of skills that isn't very useful when it comes to making policy decisions. That set of skill is "being popular".

>1)Introducing Chinese style social rating system. If China can do it, why can't others?
The question you should ask is "why should others?". The question you should ask is "how is China different?" China is unstable, despite the outward appearance. China as a concept is fragile, precisely because China is not homogeneous in the same way the United States.
>2)Introducing total automatic surveillance. You know, to prevent corona and crimes and such.
Most first world country have a functioning court system that will not allow for this, we both know this.
>3)Giving profits to the certain medical industries.
Do you not like it when companies get paid for doing things? I don't really understand your argument here. Companies only ever do things if they get paid, it's why they exist.
>4)Checking if you can force most people to stop working, either as a drill or as a way to move them to ubi state (which isn't as good as it sounds) or, if you want to go completely dark, eliminate
This seems like some sort of weird conspiracy theory to me. UBI is bad, everyone knows btw.
>5)Making small businesses go broke and then concentrating everything in larger monopolies.
But this happens regardless of lockdown measures or not, small businesses are less efficient due to economics of scale, I don't get what you're trying to say.

>>12163555
>6)Banning travel. There was such a movement, it was promoted due to the supposed climate reasons
Why would they ban travel, tourism is a huge business and everyone makes a lot of money off it. It seems really irrational to let that money go. Especially since parties that don't give a shit about the environment have endorsed travel bans. Also, don't you fringe lunatic types like strong borders? Travel restrictions and strong borders are identical.
>7)Reducing consumption (otherwise known as making people way poorer).
Why would they want that? They don't win elections if people are unhappy with the administration?
>8)If you want a bit more conspiracy: China decided that West is more fragile, so by tricking them into lockdowns it hurt the competitor. Or Europe decided that America is now very fragile, so introducing lockdowns by yourself will give them a bad example and will help to eliminate the competitor again.
Europe has no reason to compete with America, China doesn't take measures are crude as "look what we did haha", because they know nobody trusts them in the first place.
>9)Checking how many states will obey the directives coming from the central authority.
What central authority? As far as I know lockdown measures were developed and decided on individually.

>By the way, every point above is actually happening.
Prove it.

I know it's scary to think there is a real global pandemic nobody can really do anything about: The government or NWO or whatnot is doing it as a conspiracy is comforting. Why do you think people cling to things like "Bush did 9/11?". Because the reality of "some men hijack a plane and crash it into a building" is far scarier than "the government did it to get an excuse to start a war".
Conspiracy theories are always coping mechanisms to make complex problems easy to emotionally understand. "It's not a global pandemic that presents a major threat on the way we live, it's an NWO conspiracy" is a comforting thought.

>>12163561
>Even then it was known that mortality rate can be and median age of dead is close to 80.
How much do we know about long term consequences in Feburary? We know have a relatively clear knowledge that the anosmia is likely permanent, that the virus does cause permanent lung and heart damage even in young people. Taking radical measures to contain the spread when nothing was known is trivially correct.

>>12163590
>Well, you don't have to look far to find that politicians are usually very stupid and incompetent.
Anon, I want to specifically write about that point. Let's say that you live in a small town. Even there the top politicians and best businessmen are probably way more clever than you in political/business questions. Next come the mayors of larger towns, then federal politicians/senators/members of government and finally president. Each of these levels has more power and has more political skills. But then you decide that you are totally more clever than Trump(Biden, Merkel, Putin, Xi, so on) and they are totally dumb? Sorry, but if you claim that not in a joke way, but as an actual measurement, then you extremely overestimate your skills.
Now of course politician may have different interests compared to you. In fact, his main interest will be gaining and holding power. But that means that his "stupidity" is simply him not being interested in your well-being.

>>12163614
Tell me what the skillset you need is to get elected. Just tell me in simple terms what you need to be good at to get elected. You will recognize what I am saying once you do.

>>12163590
>China as a concept is fragile, precisely because China is not homogeneous in the same way the United States.
If something fragile can be fixed by some thing, then applying it to the less fragile thing can improve it too (not counting the human rights going away). By the way, this year gives me some doubts about USA non-fragility (let's hope that it will be avoided).
>Most first world country have a functioning court system that will not allow for this, we both know this.
Just like they banned lockdowns? See, it's very easy: "today you will wear this device with you 24/7. Of course it is purely for contact tracing. You don't want covid, right?". You can justify everything that way.
>Do you not like it when companies get paid for doing things?
Not if they force-push their product on me and house-arrest me as a bonus.
>This seems like some sort of weird conspiracy theory to me.
Since that actually happened, you can only argue that it happened on its own, totally without intent. By ubi here I mean "you stay at your home forever and don't go out, as a compensation you get small allowance"
>But this happens regardless of lockdown measures or not
There is a little difference between "you can continue to work and maybe fight again monopoly for some time" and "you are literally prohibited from working".

>>12163618
That's literally art and it's the most important and dangerous art in the world. Do you really think that I know how to defeat opponents in political fights? I'm not a top politician. You may as well ask me "what skillset do you need to be a great scientist" or "what skillset do you need to be a great chess player", although these things are easier.

>>12163632
But I have one specific skill. It is called "be a member of the powerful political clan or family". Can really do wonders.

>>12163625
>If something fragile can be fixed by some thing, then applying it to the less fragile thing can improve it too
Introducing a new thing causes friction and I don't think that's a good strategic move, especially when there is a lot of friction already, no? You are not thinking.

>this year gives me some doubts about USA non-fragility
You mean the riots? Doesn't that happen every time police murder a black person in a particularly publicized way? It's really nothing new. What's different this time?

>Just like they banned lockdowns?
They actually did. They very clearly stated that it's not acceptable to have unrestricted legislation like this, however given extreme circumstances a time-limited lockdown is possible. This is perfectly reasonable, really. The government shouldn't have such powers unless there is an emergency, but in an emergency the government needs the ability to do things. I don't see why you'd have a problem with this.

>Not if they force-push their product on me and house-arrest me as a bonus.
That's totally happening, right?

>By ubi here I mean "not ubi"
got it

>>12163595
>Why would they ban travel, tourism is a huge business and everyone makes a lot of money off it.
Why do climate change warriors want to ban it (and ban cars)? By the way, by the pure coincidence they achieved most things they wanted.
>Also, don't you fringe lunatic types like strong borders? Travel restrictions and strong borders are identical.
Umm, they are actually not. You dystopia-lovers may get de-facto travel ban for everyone and still import immigrants "fringe lunatics" will dislike. That's not the main point, just pointing an inconsistency.
>Why would they want that? They don't win elections if people are unhappy with the administration?
- Everyone gets two times poorer (because corona!).
- You now have a choice between parties who promise to get a few percents back
- Enjoy the election
>Europe has no reason to compete with America, China doesn't take measures are crude as "look what we did haha", because they know nobody trusts them in the first place.
Well, in your world where politicians are kind and dumb there is really no reason to compete with anyone. Must be really fluffy and comfy world.
>What central authority?
UN, WHO to start with.

>>12163595
>Prove it.
There are tracing apps, certain medical industries profit, people were forced to stop working, small businesses went broke and monopolies profited, travel was vastly reduced, people became way poorer, USA and other countries are hurt by anti-corona measures, states mostly do the same radical thing. It's pretty obvious.

>>12163661
>By the way, by the pure coincidence they achieved most things they wanted.
By the way it turns out the reduction in travel accomplished nothing.

>they are actually not
"You can't go through border to this country" is the essence of "strong borders".

>- Everyone gets two times poorer (because corona!).
>- You now have a choice between parties who promise to get a few percents back
>- Enjoy the election
How is that good for them, you need to explain this to me, I am stupid, because I don't understand your conspiracy theory.

>Well, in your world where politicians are kind and dumb there is really no reason to compete with anyone
You don't understand power very well and the interest groups that exist in the world, do you?

>UN, WHO to start with.
You mean an advisory institution designed for situations like this? Now, of course the WHO has dropped the ball on this pretty hard, probably due to ties to China.

>>12163595
>Because the reality of "some men hijack a plane and crash it into a building" is far scarier than "the government did it to get an excuse to start a war".
That's obviously false. Thinking that the government you elected composed of your compatriots is murderous is way scarier than allowing some random arab attack.
>Conspiracy theories
Conspiracy theories are based on very simple facts:
1)Government has a lot of information we don't know, including literally secret one.
2)We don't have enough skill to understand everything government is doing
and
3)Government isn't always kind and benevolent, but in fact it is often harmful for citizens

If you don't believe in 1 or 2, you are a megalomaniac. If you don't believe in 3, you are beyond naive.

>>12163680
>By the way it turns out the reduction in travel accomplished nothing.
You can ban cars then too. Or continue to ban the uncoronaish things.
>I am stupid, because I don't understand your conspiracy theory.
Because it is a pretty clear theory not even needing conspiracy. Poor people are easier to control. Poor people consume less resources. You can hire poor people for smaller wage.
>You don't understand power very well and the interest groups that exist in the world, do you?
At least you accept that there are interest groups. A little step into the conspiracies!
>You mean an advisory institution
Sure, an advisory institution everyone follows in a same way (barring a few examples).

>>12163646
>Introducing a new thing causes friction
Happily there is a corona scandal which bans some friction until the system is installed.
>You mean the riots? Doesn't that happen every time police murder a black person in a particularly publicized way? It's really nothing new. What's different this time?
Ok, USA is stable and nothing will happen during the elections. Still it's worth to try.
>They actually did. They very clearly stated that it's not acceptable to have unrestricted legislation like this, however given extreme circumstances a time-limited lockdown is possible.
It's unironically great. Sadly it happened only in some places in some countries.
>That's totally happening, right?
Yes, indeed. House arrests happen in many countries, and not taking vaccine will end in significant rights reducing.
>got it
Yes, you will not get a mansion and million dollars each day. Instead you will get what was said before (at best).

>>12163688
>You can ban cars then too.
No, why? We already know it doesn't work.

>Poor people are easier to control.
No, they are more likely to do unpredictable things
>Poor people consume less resources.
Yes, but consuming is a good thing, the economy wants as much consumption as possible, you acknowledged this yourself. You are being inconsistent.
>You can hire poor people for smaller wage
That's not a good thing, less wages means less consumption, less consumption is bad for everyone, according to you.

>At least you accept that there are interest groups.
It's trivial.

>Sure, an advisory institution everyone follows in a same way
If, after everyone independently reviewed it, did it then the advice was good.

>>12163703
>Happily there is a corona scandal which bans some friction until the system is installed
This causes more friction, not less.

>USA is stable and nothing will happen during the elections
given how it looks right now? Trump is going to lose by a landslide and if he tries something then the military isn't backing him. The military doesn't want him in the first place.

>It's unironically great.
Yes, it happens in civilized countries.

>House arrests happen in many countries
House arrests have always been a legal measure to mitigate infectious disease in most places, but it didn't come up much until now, for obvious reasons.
I don't really see how pharmaceutical companies are involved in that, though.

>not taking vaccine will end in significant rights reducing
That is reasonable, if you consider the core problem of the disease that is going around.

>>12163732
>No, why? We already know it doesn't work.
Anon, covid! And climate.
>No, they are more likely to do unpredictable things
Poor people are generally busy surviving (unlike rich who may even get into politics).
>Yes, but consuming is a good thing,
If it's you who consume. Others (especially in power) may think otherwise.
>That's not a good thing, less wages means less consumption
If the task is to reduce your consumption and make using you more profitable, then no.
>It's trivial.
Good, a lot of things I say are trivial.
>If, after everyone independently reviewed it, did it then the advice was good.
No, it may well mean that it is bad for everyone, but disobeying is worse.

>>12163749
>Anon, covid! And climate.
I like how in your mind politicians are both hyper competent demons, but also fucking retarded.

>Poor people are generally busy surviving
Until they are pushed too far and start breaking shit.

>If it's you who consume. Others (especially in power) may think otherwise.
Anon, you made the argument earlier that not consuming is bad for the economy, now you are making the argument that those in power want to destroy the economy. Why? How do they benefit from this? You are not thinking.

>No, it may well mean that it is bad for everyone, but disobeying is worse.
What is the consequence for disobeying beyond having a uncontrolled epidemic of infectious disease in your country?

>>12163732
>This causes more friction, not less.
If the end goal is chinese-tier system, then some friction may be survived. If not, then friction is bad for you and good for your adversaries.
>given how it looks right now? Trump is going to lose by a landslide and if he tries something then the military isn't backing him. The military doesn't want him in the first place.
Hopefully it will not happen, solely because his opponent is worse about corona.
>Yes, it happens in civilized countries.
Yes, for example Wisconsin supreme court once cancelled the lockdown. That's a good example.
>House arrests have always been a legal measure to mitigate infectious disease in most places, but it didn't come up much until now, for obvious reasons.
So there is a vast abuse, you just like it.
>That is reasonable, if you consider the core problem of the disease that is going around.
That's another abuse (and wise thing would be to avoid such a vaccine as long as you can).

>>12163757
What does "abuse" mean in your fantasy language, you lunatics always have your own jargon.

>>12163767
For example when you are literally prohibited from exiting your house, that's a vast abuse. When you are also forced to put on a muzzle, that's an abuse too. But if you want to be a slave (like literal one), you may actually enjoy it.

>>12163779
I asked you to define "abuse" not to list things you call "abuse".

>>12163781
Sure, but define "define" first.

>>12163786
Anon, I am legitimately confused what "abuse" means in this context, because you are not using it like you usually would.

Makes me feel like 0% of them are from COVID because COVID is fake.

>>12163788
Abuse:
>to use something for the wrong purpose in a way that is harmful or morally wrong
>to treat someone cruelly or violently

>>12163799
>to use something for the wrong purpose in a way that is harmful or morally wrong
But they're using these things for the right purpose in a way that is helpful and morally right. So I am really confused why you are using the word "abuse".

>>12163819
Sorry, no. They are using these things in a way which does immeasurable harm, is not even helpful against the excuse and is fully amoral. So it is clear and definite abuse - abuse of power and abuse of population.

>>12163827
>immeasurable
Interesting choice of words, if something is immeasurable, then there is no need to consider it at all. The harm isn't real.

>>12163829
>immeasurable
>too large, extensive, or extreme to measure.
>so large or great that it cannot be measured or known exactly:
You can clearly use the dictionary if you don't understand the meaning of the words used.

>>12163838
>You can clearly use the dictionary
I hope you're not the person who literally can't use "literally" correctly.

>>12164395
Literally literally correctly or figuratively literally correctly?

>>12164399
There's no figurative zero. Zero is zero.

>>12164408
You are literally zero, but you are still not a round mathematical symbol or mathematical quantity.

>>12150487
Much like AIDS, you don't die from SARS-nCov-2, you die from complication created/exacerbated by the disease, like pneumonia and other SARS alike "byproducts". And even if you survive it, there is good chance of your heart and lungs being fucked, some worse than others, for life.
Thanks China.

It makes me feel like I'm posting on /pol/ when this is supposed to be /sci/

>>12164450
That's because corona formally has some scientific value, but it is in fact purely political.

>>12164454
This sentence doesn't even make sense.

>>12164462
It is pretty clear though. What part is unclear to you?

>>12164465
Just take care of that brain fog.

>>12164420
>My mom is dead, but she's only one person, so she's literally alive because there's literally no dead people.

>>12150875
Because the illuminati is turning the frogs gay and 200000 in kabala equals 'u r gay retard frogman'

This is a hyperbole: the cdc admitted that 94% of deaths had underlying conditions. sage

>>12152560
>Diluted reddit meme that has no meaning anymore
Kill yourself immediately.

not him btw