/sci/ - Science & Math

>>12050405
The left wing isn't always the one you listed, I'd argue that their argument is more often than not that the IQ differences between races are a result of socioeconomic factors.

>>12050423
no rightwinger claims that socioeconomic factors play no role

>>12050405

>>12050464
Do people who post infographics expect to be taken seriously?

>>12050470
>i can't take references and information seriously on a science board

>>12050470
ok one racer

>>12050485
>I’m a sucker who falls for extremely obvious cherry-picking
Good sources speak for themselves. You shouldn’t need flashy pictures and editorializing to supplement good research.

>>12050405
IQ tests are slightly biased, but still a very good tool.

Niggers are fucking retarded and it's not because they're poor. It's because they're not as evolved.

>>12050522
My evolutionary biology teacher told me there's no such thing as less evolved.

>>12050434
certainly no right winger claims that socioeconomic factors play all of the role, like leftists do

>>12050512
you do to gain the average joe's attention and make the information easily digestible

>>12050405
>despite there being no incentive for either side to take a stance
lol lee atwater called from the grave and wants his entire political project back.
>Jfc I can’t believe I made this thread. I am so sorry.
yeah, you shouldn't have. you and your ilk relentlessly shit up the board.
>because I know the regulars all have an agenda.
telling on yourself right there

>>12050405
https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39

>>12050570
Why are fish retarded then? Checkmate atheists

>>12050570
Kind of true, evolution isn't an RPG levelling system. Oh accurate way to be less evolved is to have fewer total mutations from the original ancestor, but that's not a good measure of what's better or more fit, just what's more mutated.

>>12050725
Evolution will make you as stupid as it can get away with, human intellect is a total freak accident.

>>12050607
No, what you’re doing is overwhelming the average Joe with so much information they have no choice but to capitulate. It’s called Gish galloping, and it’s the reason these threads never go anywhere.

>>12050464
"Myth 5" is correct and "Myth 6" is relative. The rest are sound.

>>12050405
>The left-wing argument is that the test questions are arbitrary.
That's the point, actually.
https://youtu.be/T-c7lNy-KgU?t=139

>>12050405
my family went from third world villagers to professionals in couple of generations, I am sure many on planet earth made the same leap. I am over 6ft tall and my dad and almost everyone else who isn't in the generation that grew up in America around 5'6' max. that is in my family almost all the young men are around 6 feet and all their fathers are five six and under. It's clearly nutrition and probably some more nurture. Clearly the way nature sums into "intellegence" is elusive but I'd think most of the notions about intellegence and race start in the IQ-19th century psuedo and race science conversation and they are very thinly veiled in the modern day as "rigourous" when it's still math abuse anyone who can figure out is too lazy and disenchanted to communicate to any one else. IQ is for losers.

>>12050405

Proof is in the pudding,
Name ONE world class university in Africa.
Name ONE large African black lead country any sane human would choose to move to.
Name ONE African philosopher of great note.

>>12050807
all systems and institutions dominated by white people and therefore defined by them and gated by them and passed on to one from the other.

the course of human history is the head of a needle, it takes a long time for whole peoples to move, but it takes less for individuals to.

>>12050815
>all systems and institutions dominated by white people
Blame whitey for the 1.1 BILLION people unable to have one decent country, one decent university and even one decent philosopher.

It b Whiteys Fault we all is dumb as rocks!

>>12050789
I agree with this anon.
There is good evidence for environmental factors causing cognitive deficits.
There is good a good case for large deficits caused by a handful of mutations, such as in fragile x syndrome (where the genes expression measured by RNA or protein blotting correlated with I.Q., from 40 to 70 I.Q. in these patients)

However, large GWAS find hits that indicate very small effects of normal gene variants on I.Q.
They ignore heritable epigenetics
They ignore the interaction of genes with environment, for example susceptibility to lead poisoning; or for example, certain SNPs being associated with a non-intelligence related feature (ie skin colour or gender) which leads to environmental influences (societal expectations and discrimination)

Though the biggest problem, in my opinion, is that we say we account for all confounders (and so what is left must be genetics), but simply saying confounders are all accounted for does not make it so. Unnoticed confounders can persist.

Though I would gladly accept that race is associated with I.Q. if someone could show a very significant p value in a study of mouse intelligence, where a homologous protein in mice is replaced by a black allele in one group and a white allele in the other group. Then we could reasonably account for environmental factors, and do a double blind study of the allele on cognition

Put a thousand White Europeans in the middle of the desert and in 30 years you will have a thriving community.
Put a million Black Africans in the middle of the desert and in 30 years you will have a thousand starving Africans.

>>12050838
Any data to back this up, bud?

>>12050824
bro don't you know, whitey manged to enslave the ENTIRETY of africa, stunting their development by thousands of years

>>12050856
Hang the fuck on. You do realize that slavery has been practiced globally, right? Romans enslaved many Britons, why didn't Britain stall for thousands of years? Your theory ain't sound, bucko.

>>12050848

Zimbabwe

>>12050874
>another retard-tier infographic
Like pottery

>>12050682

>>12050805
> to professionals in couple of generations
anecdotal, unproven, arbitrary definition of success and intelligence and we still dont know where you come from and how "pure" or devoid of european or asian genes your pedigree is.

>>12050825
epigenetics can only account for one generation

>>12050883
its not an infograph it's a collection of news articles about a historic event that took place. And you asked if there's anything to back it up, well yes.


>>12050807
Enlightenment is not white per sé it is a logical frameconstruct everyone could've come up with. And yet africans did not. All systems and institutions are dominated by white people because white people invented them ebcause they were culturally and intellectually able to do so. Your genes are in the end a product of your environment and your culture a product of your genes. Europeans and africans had different environments shaping their genes and ultimately their cultures and thus their intelligence.

OP I'm still not sure about it myself but too many signs point to it being genetic instead of pure environmental.
The lefty cycle always goes like this:

>IQ is a meme
Oh Okay IQ is not a meme because it's the best psychometric we have and a good predictor
>IQ is applied in a racist cherry picked way
Certainly there might be some truth to that, and yet modern IQ tests performed on westernized people of african descent still show an entire standard deviation of difference to the white population mean
>Races don't exist
then here goes a long back and forth citing stuff left and right and then we come to the conclusion that the whole race thing is convoluted as fuck and the definition is purely arbitrary buit in the end it's just semantics, europeans are different from africans not only an a few SNPs period. And even if it were a few SNPs, one single SNP can ruin your life/genome.
>Okay IQ is somewhat legit and races exist, the differences are socioeconomic
Studies show how nurtured or richer blacks still compare worse to their white counterparts
>But I know that one black guys who smarter than most whites I know
Statistical outlier, good for him.

This is probably unironically one of the topics where you need either an IQ 140+ or less than 95 in order to come to correct conclusion
Intuitively, why did only non african societies thrive? (No fuck off egyptians where not black)
(and yes I know somalis and nigerians where not that stupid and actually had a somewhat advanced society but not as strong as asian or european societies)

My hunch is lefty scientist can't disprove IQ anymore so now they will focus alot more on the races don't exist thing. And if not they will go on about how micronutrients totally change your entire life and oh wait the white trahs person still is an SD away from the black trash person? Ah fuck next argument

>>12050926
>>12050932
I invite anyone to refute my points, I'm open minded about this.
Just because I wrote a wall of text it doesnt mean I'm right, stay critical lads.

>>12050405
The problem is that white brains are strictly serial. This makes them a little bit better at processing very simple information, but completely impossible to process more complex thoughts.
No complex language - everything depends on large vocabulary, almost no combining of smaller units into bigger wholes. Even "Lion killed the tiger." needs conscous deliberation to understand what animal killed which one.
No empathy, as that requires combining multiple thoughts (one person actions and the other ones reaction). People are perceived as unchangeable "characters" that don't react to circumstances or other people's behavior towards them; inability to comprehend more complex behaviors, such and vengeance and incapable of cooperating beyond "if I do this, I get that.

>>12050405
The problem is that white brains are strictly serial. This makes them a little bit better at processing very simple information, but completely impossible to process more complex thoughts.
No complex language - everything depends on large vocabulary, almost no combining of smaller units into bigger wholes. Even "The lion killed the tiger." needs conscous deliberation to understand what animal killed which one.
No empathy, as that requires combining multiple thoughts (one person actions and the other ones reaction). People are perceived as unchangeable "characters" that don't react to circumstances or other people's behavior towards them; inability to comprehend more complex behaviors, such and vengeance and incapable of cooperating beyond "if I do this, I get that."

A particularly strange example is tragedy of the commons: the average white seems to be totally unable to comprehend that others using the commons would not like it being ruined and would stop the exploitation.

>Is it possible somehow for neither, or both, to be true?

Yup, main issue is that the average person in general and on /sci/ is too invested in their world view to take a neutral stance.

Here are the facts,

>Is IQ a good measure of intelligence?
Yes, but mostly within environment that places emphasis on mathematical related applications.
>Is IQ a good indicator of economic prosperity?
No, mathematicians and physicists rank the highest on testing but make no where near the highest in salaries.
>Do various ethnicities/races have different IQ?
Yes, multiple testing over the decades show different IQ ranges between different groups.
>Is IQ static (both individually and collectively)?
No, various events on either scale can influence the IQ results and it's outlook for generations to come. Such as assorted mating, wide spread education and disease affliction.
>Do genes affect IQ?
Yes, polygenic test show certain genes are affiliated with intelligence.
>Does environment affect IQ?
Yes, lead, Iodine, Cortisol, Nutrition and basic literacy affect intelligence.
>Does the numerical value of a given IQ result actually meaningful?
No, because that would assume two people with the same IQ (no matter the level) have the same skillset. Which is false and shows the presence of a fundemtal holistic problem.

Take away is both sides are right. And I have wasted my valuable time on yet another shitty IQ thread answering it.

>>12051081
>A particularly strange example is tragedy of the commons
The tragedy of the commons is a thought experiment.
In real life, european societies made commons work all through the middle ages and modern times up to industrialization with minimal issues.

>>12050512
>A picture is worth a thousand words

FUCK OFF WITH YOUR EASILY SHAREABLE INFORMATION

>>12050405
It's evolution. Draconian crime laws in early Europe selected for the type of empathy and intellegence condusive to western civilization. Meanwhile African Americans are the village criminals that were sold as slaves by Africans or Arabs. Maybe no where else on Earth demonstrates the race/iq meme better than American cities.

>>12050405
Don't fall for the /pol/ meme.

In Africa life is about work, "pattern recognition" isn't taught because that has absolutely nothing to do with how to drive a digger or farm coffee. If you work, you eat. If your parents are rich, maybe you can think about something practical like becoming a doctor. You would have to actually pay an African to learn about a theoretical subject because they are living in a practical world not a theoretical one.

IQ scores in burgerclap land can be explained by slavery causing them to hate anything white related, such as schooling.
The transracial adoption study sounds interesting, but given /pol/s very poor ability to interpret statistics logically I'm sure they've somehow misinterpreted that too.

>>12051087
>mostly within environment
I see the point you're trying to make but in the end general intelligence does not depend from environmant and can be applied to ANY environment because as the name states it's general, it's the concept of how complex you can think and that can carry over to any other skill or life aspect but it's not everything is you stated in your other points.
>prosperity IQ correlation
being prosperous is a combination of many skills and luck, it requieres a certain level of intelligence aswell, so when these correlations are made the statement is prosperous people tend to be high IQ and not high IQ people tend to be prosperous.

I agree with all the other points you made here.

>>12051371
>life is about work not about patternr ecognition
doesn't disprove intelligence inequealities no one says intelligence is the best trait for survival it always depends on the environment, not the strongest (highest intelligence) but the fittest (the adapted "worker" )survives and you know that.

Does arbitrary IQ matter? I mean I'm such a 130iq genius I solved my depression/figured out how manipulative and retarded my parents are and kicked their shitty selfish asses out of my life. That said there's women, men, kikes, niggers, spicks, wops, degos, sand nigs, red dots, trannys, fags, chinks, and any other degenerate group that I've left out that have all contributed to science. I think that's what's important. Regardless of background anyone can contribute great work to art, science, math, and ideas.

>>12051236
>Draconian crime laws in early Europe selected for the type of empathy and intellegence condusive to western civilization.
The lack of recognition of vengeance and feuds etc. made it into the most heartless and vicious race, as amoral behavior had no consequences and brought succes. (See Marcus Crassus) Basically psychopaths will rule without socially accepted retaliation.
I don't know where you got europeans are the most empathic ones, virtually everyone will tell you the opposite. Europeans are cruel and vicious people. Europeans will laugh instead coming to help, and may try to hurt you more for fun.

>>12051445
this is pretty much the opposite of reality, maybe youre talking about meds ?

>>12051467
No it isn't, it's just that europeans seem to be completely delusional concerning the expected level of empathy. They see as a rare favor the barest minimum in other parts of the world. What makes you think the opposite and what or who are meds?

>>12051494
Their white guilt is slowly allowing them to self cannibalize, don't worry about them, the Chinese and the third-worlders that they keep importing to alleviate their guilt will take care of them.

>>12050932
I think what is really required is a good working knowledge of statistics and factor analysis. What is particularly striking is most scientists do not know statistics very well (even the difference between r and R, what a p value is etc), but believe they can make judgement on a statistics driven field.

If you do not understand factor analysis you cannot really appreciate what 'g' is and why iq is used to measure it.

I think the most important fact is that racial income disparity in the USA vanishes when controlled for IQ. Also average black-american European admixture is 50%! ie they are not 'sub saharan africans'

Furthermore, most people do not study facts and come to conclusions. They start with their conclusion and work back to the facts.

>>12051517
It isn't about the others, it's about people ruining their competition by accusing them of racism.

>>12051572
I don't get your point?

>>12050464
It wouldn't matter what he posted. You've already decided there's an Albert Einstein inside every oppressed niggerino, struggling to get out, if only it weren't for those evil cis white males.

>>12050838
put a million blacks in the middle of a thriving city with all modern infrastructure and in a decade you'll have south africa or zimbabwe, or detroit

>>12050464
Is this one new or can I still use this?

>>12051680
I mean, you're misinterpreting those as act of empathy, it's whites using accusations of racism to ruin each other.

>>12051680
I mean, you're misinterpreting those as acts of empathy, it's whites using accusations of racism to ruin each other.

>>12051720
Some fag scientist with an absurdly high h-index is saying this is all pseudoscience without providing any in depth info besides, "thes misinterpret" and not a single source:
http://ewanbirney.com/2019/10/race-genetics-and-pseudoscience-an-explainer.html

I'm working on a debunk right now, got half of it done already, almost every segment is either irrelevant (non argument to hide the bs) wrongly claimed or unbased/unsource/citation needed.

>>12051816
Samefag here
Seriously how can a scientist of such calibre come up with so many weak statements, he did not provide a single proof and never throughly explained what is wrong with any of the itnerpretations unless he was falsely reciting what they allegedly claim.

>>12051720
>read your image
>"5 isn't disputed" semantics faggotry, trying to infer the wrong meaning and constructing a strawman
And that's how you know someone is a mid-wit. I'm not going to throw too much shit to you(even though I should because it's 4chan) because I was one myself.
>>12051816
I'm not surprised if your work would be long, the fallacies here are so deep it's unbearable. It's just like Karl Marx's works

>>12051882
I will need help though, and Im gonna see my gf now so I'm not gonna do much more today.
My "studies" collection on the topic isnt big enough for example.

>>12050862
he was kidding

>>12051787
I never said it was empathy, but guilt and shame, they don't want to be associated with the acts of their ancestors, yet they continue benefiting from their actions. And to make themselves feel better, they bring in more immigrants and tolerate them while the foreigners destroy their culture.

>>12051431
Even if it didn't matter there's nothing wrong to see if there is a difference.

as good as an attempt this was, you're never going to have a legitimate discussion about this on this board. too many ways to get derailed
ten identical iq threads

>>12051932
We should have an IQ general like the medfags do where we can start off with what evidence /debunks we have so far and maybe MAYBE we will come to a copnclusion without regurgitating the same stupid cycle over and over.

>>12051943
Race IQ general?

>>12051943
go for it, maybe it'll catch on
the problem is 90% of the time a board tourist wants to make a thread it's going to be an IQ thread, so unless jannies actually start doing their job this will never go away.

>>12051950
Yes and we start off with links that either prove or disprove the existence of races and links that prove the validity of IQ / critique IQ as a metric. That would be a good way to have actual discussions about the topic with good arguments and not /pol/ or moralfaggotry because I am fucking DONE with this, I want to know where the truth is I know it lies somewhere in the middle of all the claimed bs of any side.

>>12051966
I agree. I think there is truth on both sides but a plethroa of wrong information

>>12051924
>foreigners destroy their culture.
Lol no they do the complete opposite

>>12050958
No point trying to discuss points with a retard who knows no history at all about either groups.

>>12050405
Back to /pol/ with you. You're not fooling anyone

>>12051050
>No complex language - everything depends on large vocabulary, almost no combining of smaller units into bigger wholes.
German you fucking idiot

>>12052186
this is why there will never be a serious discussion about this

>>12052228
That well is poisoned from the very root. It's an useless subject

>>12052240
there are great points on both sides so its rather necessary to discuss so we can find middle ground

>>12051110
Conveying more words doesn't make your argument better.

>>12050807
I was told to post this to annoy race realists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors

>>12052240
knowledge seeking is never useless

>>12052274
>black

>>12052279
Well, only about as black as Jesus.

>>12052251
It's useless to compare populations who are historically and currently fundamentally different in terms of opportunity and equality.
In the end it will lead to the same conclusion of how racism and slavery has hurt blacks.

>>12052288
Your own image from wikipedia shows the moors as white

>>12052274
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors
Were you told why should that annoy us ?

>>12052295
>>12052303
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantigas_de_Santa_Maria

It's called an artist's depiction. Jesus, sometimes drawn in a similar style, was not white either.

>>12052312
Moors existed during that time period that was painted in dude, there were obviously blacks in the ranks of moors from Mauritiuana but it wasn't a stupidly absurd amount. My guess as to why their heads were used is that Europeans were so unfamiliar with them so they became the mascot for the Moors. The Arabs probably looked too similar to Sicilians or Iberians to be represented fairly.

>>12052289
>It's useless to compare populations who are historically and currently fundamentally different in terms of opportunity and equality.
Well if you think that difference is unfair and want to remove it, it's useful to determine its causes.

>>12050512
Are you retarded?

>>12052312
>>12052288
>It's called an artist's depiction
Nice bait though.

>>12052341
ikr
>virgin posts image of black moor
>chads post white moors
>ITS CALED ARTISTS DEPICTION!!!!!!!!!

>>12052341
oh yeah not to mention that painting is literally of Ira Aldridge

>>12052341
Except a Moorish person could conceivably have the same complexion as the one depicted. There is absolutely no way Jesus looked remotely similar to the slender, blue-eyed character most people know.

>>12052365
Lol, no one mentioned Jesus nigger. Defend your claim bro, you said the Moors were black right?

>>12052334
>Gish galloping fails
>Immediately resorts to name calling
Sorry but the resolution to this topic is too complex to be laid out in the same format as a webcomic.

>>12052369
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors#Notable_Moors
Not all of them, but there were black Moors in the same capacity that there were/are non-white Jews in the Middle East. This >>12052288 is a portrait of an actor dressed as Othello, true to Shakespeare's conception of him. Though Shakespeare could have been an SJW cuck, too, I suppose.

>>12052392
Well yeah no one denies that fact that blacks were in Moorish armies, but lots of people like Afrocentrists make the claim that they were the NOBLES, the TOP TIERS or some bullshit like that. >>12052318 Refer here, this is what I think happened.
>black Moors in the same capacity that there were/are non-white Jews in the Middle East
well they mustve not been a significant amount
>Though Shakespeare could have been an SJW cuck, too, I suppose
rofl that got me, good one

>>12052392
also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-modern_Arab_scientists_and_scholars
its difficult for me to find a Blackamoor type in this list, it's mostly just Egyptians or Andalusians or North Africans or native Arabs