/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11950276
because aliens dont exist retard

>>11950276
That's a lot of assumptions and very little evidence.

>UFOs are now officially confirmed real as advanced vehicles of unknown origin
not confirmed

>Something or someone evidentely has mastered the physics of gravity control and FTL travel.
not confirmed

>>11950276
Where are the technosignatures, /x/ schizo?

>>11950280
>>11950302
>>11950305
>>11950306
>https://youtu.be/9a0xIzp-fbs
Cope harder

>>11950280
the best solution for the fermi paradox to date is a massive MIB style coverup. The government has gone on the record of saying this is true.

So why does this anon persist?
It's because misinformation is persistent and has a way of preserving itself.
Even in the face of obvious truthful facts lies can thrive. Why? Lies are enduring because a lie relies on nothing but itself to survive. While the truth relies on facts and information which can be lost, forgotten and misunderstood. Misinformation can outlive the truth in ways that we'll never predict. It is much more dangerous that we realize.

>>11950314
Where are the technosignatures, /x/ schizo?

>>11950280

You forgot to mention that the earth is flat and space ist fake lel

>>11950314
here is where your
>>>/x/
thinking fails. why are they here? it makes ZERO sense. so much so as long as there is reasonable explanations for the videos that aren't UFOs its probably that. are they here to not meddle with us and just examine us? why do we keep getting having photos of them they have no cloaking devices? why dont they just put a bunch of small satelights that we cant never track that examine us pick up our signals (we can do this right now)? are they here to kill us? why dont they just kill us create some disease in a lab that kill us all or just nuke us? are they here to extract resources? why dont they extract resources somewhere else? are they here to help us? why didnt they help us already? just think about all the potential reasons every single one doesnt make sense. kill yourself. stop making schizo ufo threads.
>>>/x/

>>11950314
This is proof, if you could call it that, that some pilots saw something they didn't understand. Saying that it's aliens is quite a stretch. I believe that sentient life could arise on planets other than Earth, but I have no reason to believe that it is already here.

>>11950276
>UFOs are now officially confirmed real as advanced vehicles of unknown origin.
sauce?

>>11950276
>UFOs are now officially confirmed real as advanced vehicles of unknown origin
no. UFOtards are delusional

>>11950345
>lists at least one logical explanation

Dum dum detected.

>>11950389
>>11950394
>>11950659

You guys really prove my point that the whole of the scientific community is in complete denial regarding the new level of credibility of the topic.

The pentagon itself has officially released the thre UAP-videos, stating that despite the worlds most sophisticated sensor systems, aviators, aerospace engineers and radar operators at their desposal, they weren´t able to identify these craft.

How much more prrof do you need?

>>11950763
Seriously, the replies in this thread are fucking cringeworthy. Lots of people have their heads up their asses on the UAP issue.

>>11950276
If Ayys are actually here why would they hide? If they are hiding how did they get caught?

>>11950763
>doesnt provide source in the OP
>gets salty and calls people coping and in denial when they ask for source
ur mean anon >:(
anyhow just because the released some old vids doesnt mean that they made an official statement or anything that aliens are real. that said I cant watch the video now cause my internets slow.

>>11950345
>lots of whataboutisms
If there are aliens here, the evidence points to them taking tissue samples and performing other biological research on us, cows and likely other life. They would have taken an interest in a, likely rare, technical-warfare species that has nuclear weapons.
At minimum, based on ground reports, they are conducting a biological assay. At minimum, based aerial reports, they are testing our military capabilities and going about their daily business of hiding in the oceans.
>>11950354
Pilots see weird things all the time. Discounting the 99% that is explainable, the other stuff appears to be various forms of extremely high performance technological vehicles. Pilots, cops, ship captains all are trained observers and occasionally encounter oddness.

>>11950785

I know.. i don´t even really care anymore. People seem to just hate the idea that we could be like the sentinel islands inhabitants. Surrounded by an advanced civilization but left alone because we´re too primitive and aggressive towards strangers.

But even if it´s not aliens, which could be entirely possible, there are indeed highly advanced crafts operating in our atmosphere and there is little to nothing any military in the world can do about it.

I just don´t get why this does not spark the interest of our brightest minds to figure out the tech behind what we observe.

>>11950797

They obviously are not hiding. When they have the ability to travel the distances between stars with ease, one would asume they could observe us from somewhere within our solar system.

But no, they enter our atmosphere, visit our nuclear sites, mess with them and with whole carrier strike groups. For weeks.

>>11950819
>anyhow just because the released some old vids doesnt mean that they made an official statement or anything that aliens are real

I did not say it´s aliens. I just said that UFOs are confirmed real, which is true.

From there begins a rabbit hole because no known earthbound force is in possesion of the technology observed.

So either it´s hyper-super secret deep black projects of some sort or it´s just aliens. We don´t know.

https://www.navair.navy.mil/foia/documents

Pics or it didn't happen.

Seriously, we live in an age where everything gets filmed in at least 720p. Show some proper video proof and I'll believe.

>>11950960
Chances are your smartphone can't even capture the moon properly.

>>11950960

These are the videos. The crafts remain unidentified.

If you want to, you may dive into the Nimitz Encounters of 2004. Multiple Pilots, radar operators and other seamen testified publicly about what they saw and recorded.

https://www.youtube.com/c/TheNimitzEncounters/videos

https://www.navair.navy.mil/foia/documents

>>11950989
Where are the technosignatures, /x/ schizo?

How can they enter Earth with their supposed "antigravity technology" without any detectable disturbance in gravitational waves, no wake on the oceans, none of our myriad of space telescopes, satellites and ground research stations able to detect them, no evidence of communication signals, radio, light, etc?

This is akin to believing in magic.
A grainy infrared video is not going to change my mind. You are putting too much faith on the competency and reliability of a few pilots, while ignoring the entirety of astrophysicists, astronomers and experts on Earth.

>>11951017
>>11950989
We also have satellites able to zoom in with exceptional detail, why is there no satellite footage of these UFOs?

>>11950763
I am the last poster on your list and I'm actually trying to back you up. I try to post as lottle as possible in these threads though because I feel like I am doing more harm than good.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence and all that. Not everybody is unlucky enough to have had a personal encounter.

Here is some stuff I have posted previously though. You can laugh me out of the thread now...

>>11951031
Like I said the memories are foggy after being gaslit for almost thirty years. I've been trying to remember since government agencies have acknowledged there is something going on. It has made me feel less crazy.

>>11950314
It's like you don't understand the concept of a "UFO".

Uknown flying object? It's an alien spacecraft!

>>11951017
>8
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

>>11951031
>>11951034

Well, that´s one hell of a story there.

I don´t know what good it does to the discussion about the technology of these crafts but if you have the need to make the thread about aliens, so be it.

I myself had a pretty impressive sighting after trying the CE-5 stuff for a while. Other than that i have no idea what the inhabitants of the crafts might think about us.

We obviously didn´t leave low-earth-orbit for 50 years despite being technologically able to do so. The question why not is one that really bugs me and one of the more logical answers would be: Because we weren´t allowed to after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

>>11951045
Doesn't answer my question...

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/satellite-photos-show-iranian-rocket-explosion-launch-pad/story?id=65276497

Iran's rocket launch fails and the CIA knows about it as it happened thanks to satellites. An Israeli jet fighter bombs Syria's weapons facilities and the entire world has satellite footage of it a mere hours afterwards. Fucking /pol/ managed to find an ISIS training camp using Google Earth and forwarded it to the Russians which promptly bombed the shit out of it.

And yet there isn't a single satellite picture of these myriad of UFO incidents? Maybe they don't look like spacecraft from above the Earth but as birds, planes, weather balloons, etc?

>>11951071

Funny that you brought up Iran, i just learned that iranian jets apparantely engaged UFOs in 2014.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/01/14/did-iranian-fighters-battle-ufos/

Regarding your demand for high quality satellite images of UFOs, that´s a pretty strange idea. Imagine wanting to have satellite images of crafts that are traveling at hypersonic speeds.

Thats like wanting a satellite image of a fired tank shell.

>>11951017
>How can they enter Earth with their supposed "antigravity technology" without any detectable disturbance in gravitational waves
Why do you think LIGO and VIRGO could detect that?

>>11951096
>Funny that you brought up Iran, i just learned that iranian jets apparantely engaged UFOs in 2014.
UFOs interested in Iranian nuclear facilities, or US drones interested in Iranian nuclear facilities? What's more likely?

>Regarding your demand for high quality satellite images of UFOs, that´s a pretty strange idea. Imagine wanting to have satellite images of crafts that are traveling at hypersonic speeds.
2004 Nimitz report claims the "UFO" stayed airborne and still for periods of half an hour or more. Plenty of time to take satellite photos when the crafts are staying still. Another report from the Persian Gulf claims "a fleet" was spotted in radar, and that such incidents were "common". Then a sweep of the region should find at least one don't you think?

The fact that they fly at hypersonic speeds would be even more noticeable to satellite observers tracking airplanes, these craft should stand out in the footage.

>>11951121
A craft that warps spacetime to get here should be detectable.

Maybe they don't emit gravity waves as part of the process? You know like planets.

>>11951138
Planets don't travel faster than light

>>11951135
Have you done the calculations?

>>11951145
No, the burden of proof is on you to show me an alien technosignature, ANY technosignature. Radiation, radio communications, laser communications, satellite imagery, electromagnetism, it doesn't have to be gravitational fields, that was an example among many.

It should be easy enough. Get a UFO report, corroborate said report with some unusual reading and or satellite footage.

>>11951125

>2004 Nimitz report claims the "UFO" stayed airborne and still for periods of half an hour or more. Plenty of time to take satellite photos when the crafts are staying still. Another report from the Persian Gulf claims "a fleet" was spotted in radar, and that such incidents were "common". Then a sweep of the region should find at least one don't you think?

I think you are perfectly right. There is just one problem: The ones who have an interest of these satellite images being released to public, don´t have the means nor the necessary informations to do so and the ones who have both, have no interest in releasing the images.

The National Reconnaissance Office surely has the means to track everything and anything that moves in our planets atmosphere but why would the release such information to the public?

The Pentagon struggled for 3 Years just to confirm the authenticity of the mentioned videos, so i assume it would take whistleblowers in the NRO to leak satellite imagery of UAPs.

Your understanding of how and why certain information and techniques are classified for good reasons seems somewhat limited to me to be honest.

>>11951156
I'm not claiming aliens are visiting earth, but I just find it weird that you think they'd have to generate gravitational waves that are detectable by current observatories.

>>11951156
>No, the burden of proof is on you to show me an alien technosignature, ANY technosignature. Radiation, radio communications, laser communications, satellite imagery, electromagnetism, it doesn't have to be gravitational fields, that was an example among many.

So you basically demand highly classified information to prove to you that the phenomenon is real. That´s what i call some effective goalpost-shifting. Chapeau!

>>11950276
Ocamms razor. The us armed forces are interested in people assuming strange stuff is aliens rather than something secret, this makes espionage harder. Most things that were thought alien in the past were confirmed to be military stuff later and the air force has been purposely vague in the past.

It's a simple trick designed to fool idiots so that the info is a bit harder to find. Of course you're just part of those idiotic masses.

>>11951071
Show me a satellite picture of US black project planes.

>>11950929
alright fair enough. that is some weird shit. but I doubt its aliens its more likely secret tech that the government has. they obviously would keep it secret because if the public had it civilization as we know it would change. either that or it just has some kind of tech that fucks up planes sensors. or mabye there plane was broken im just guessing lole.

>>11951180
>Ocamms razor. The us armed forces are interested in people assuming strange stuff is aliens rather than something secret, this makes espionage harder. Most things that were thought alien in the past were confirmed to be military stuff later and the air force has been purposely vague in the past.
>It's a simple trick designed to fool idiots so that the info is a bit harder to find. Of course you're just part of those idiotic masses.

Occams Razor is about the simplest possibility to be the most likely to be true.

These things have been observed not since we are able to built jets that reach supersonic flight. They have been observed by pilots in WW2 and earlier.

So when you say that it´s just some classified black project, you implicate that someone had antigravity-tech long before anyone had the jet engine or any flying craft for that matter.

Seems not very likely does it?

Oh and the fact that you need to resort to these kinds of unlikely scenarios and spice them up with some rather childish insults is pretty telling.

Just think something through before you embarass yourself with these kinds of logical errors.

>>11951183
Sure.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1220210/Satellite-footage-Area-51-mysterious-UFO-top-secret-military-US-latest-news

>>11951171
>>11951165
So again I am supposed to believe in some grand conspiracy where all the governments of the world are in tandem to hide ayyys? Civilian satellites should be able to spot them too, as it happened with pic related.

You had the literal head of the UFO taskforce resign and become a whistleblower and he can't produce any evidence of ayyys other than these grainy videos which had already leaked beforehand?

>>11951187
>alright fair enough. that is some weird shit. but I doubt its aliens its more likely secret tech that the government has.

Again. These things have been observed throughout human history, some of the craft could be reverse-engineered but not earlier than maybe 1950. And if some of them are in fact man-made, you gotta have the tightest secured secret technology to ever be made and have it stay secret for 70 years.

Not impossible but man you have to compartmentalize everything so nobody understands the whole picture.

>>11951187
>ment has. they obviously would keep it secret because if the public had it civilization as we know it would change. either that or it just has some kind of tech that fucks up planes sensors. or mabye there plane was broken im just guessing lole.

There is more to it than just one sensor or just one pilot or just one radar operator.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e9NoKp8EnE

>>11951243
Hangars are easy to find, but I'm not seeing any crafts.

>>11951031
I've seen one, a large triangle.

>>11951243
>So again I am supposed to believe in some grand conspiracy where all the governments of the world are in tandem to hide ayyys? Civilian satellites should be able to spot them too, as it happened with pic related.

I am not talking about anything but the fact that these crafts are real and are operating in our atmosphere with impunity.

>You had the literal head of the UFO taskforce resign and become a whistleblower and he can't produce any evidence of ayyys other than these grainy videos which had already leaked beforehand?

Well you might still not really comprehend what you are looking at. The whole of the US military failed to explain what these things are, no airplane in the US-inventory is able to intercept them and nobody on this planet is able to stop them from doing whatever they are doing here.

And again. I do not say it´s definetely aliens but the options are quite limited.

>>11951053
Roswell happened around the time of our first nuclear test as well. Maybe we got their attention.

>>11951071
Bro, they JUST released the navy video after keeping it for 10 years. What do you expect? People cant handle the possibility.

>>11951270

The worlds first strategic nuclear bomber squadron was stationed in roswell.

>>11951156
They have shown up on radar.
They've shown up on private pilots radar while being visually confirmed, too.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ex-air-force-personnel-ufos-deactivated-nukes/

>>11951180
>Most things that were thought alien in the past were confirmed to be military stuff later and the air force has been purposely vague in the past.
Military test pilots have also claimed to have seen UFOs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Popovich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Cooper#UFO_sightings

>>11950276
>everyone knows the government is full of shit
>government goes hey goyim look at these ufos!
>whoa theyre here!!!!

>>11951263
The crafts are the stealth drones / helicopters you see painted in black.

>>11951269
All I see is a pork barrel bureaucratic project that allocated huge sums of money to the aerospace company owned by a friend of the senator who sponsored it, a project that consisted of several years fucking around wasting the taxpayers' money achieving nothing of substance, and whose head eventually resigned timing it out perfectly to make the jump to a cushy job opportunity he had lined in a PR company.

Meanwhile you are implying a decades-long conspiracy held by all the governments, astronomers and satellite operators in the world on which not a single shred of hard evidence of ayyys managed to leak out.

Civilian satellites constantly leak "classified footage", yet not a single UFO in sight.

>>11951288

You act like the Pentagon has been pushing these videos out in the public. They didn´t. In fact they had a leak (I´m guessing Luis Elizondo himself leaked the videos) and then they had the AATIP-director quitting in protest of the secrecy. After 3 years they finally admitted that the videos are in fact genuine.

Doesn´t fit your narrative sorry.

>>11951294
>The crafts are the stealth drones / helicopters you see painted in black.
I can only see unidentifiable blobs on your picture.

>>11951284
Yes I know what a UFO is, show me evidence of them being ayyys.

>>11951294
All the "hard" evidence has been confiscated. Think about it. Anyone with the power to do what these alleged craft are able to do would rule the planet. You would have infinite energy and an army of incredibly fast death machines.
Are you retarded?

>>11951305
I dont care who's piloting them, I want to know how the technology works.

>>11950276
>UFOs are now officially confirmed real as advanced vehicles of unknown origin
>confirming a definition
based retard, stopped reading

>>11951305
The OP doesn't even mention aliens btw.

>>11951294
>All I see is a pork barrel bureaucratic project that allocated huge sums of money to the aerospace company owned by a friend of the senator who sponsored it, a project that consisted of several years fucking around wasting the taxpayers' money achieving nothing of substance, and whose head eventually resigned timing it out perfectly to make the jump to a cushy job opportunity he had lined in a PR company.
>Meanwhile you are implying a decades-long conspiracy held by all the governments, astronomers and satellite operators in the world on which not a single shred of hard evidence of ayyys managed to leak out.
>Civilian satellites constantly leak "classified footage", yet not a single UFO in sight.

Well if the current output of information on the issue isn´t convincing enough for you to at least entertain the possibility of UFOs being a real thing then literally nothing will. That´s fine with me. I had my own experiences that directly convinced me so i don´r really mind pathological sceptics that demand data that isn´t avaliable to civilians.

>>11951303
>In fact they had a leak (I´m guessing Luis Elizondo himself leaked the videos)
The 2004 Nimitz video leaked to the Above Top Secret forums in 2007 straight from the Navy's internet (SIRPNET), before the task force was created. It's curious you know so little of the conspiracy theory you are pushing for.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a30538203/navy-ufo-video-investigation/

>>11951305

You seem pretty fixated on the Ayy-angle of the subject. We don´t know who is piloting the crafts, we don´t speculate about it. We are interested how the fuck they operate.

>>11951053
I have put a lot of thought into my experience. It does not prove to me that ayys exist. I consider it the most logical explanation but there are other possibilities.

>I got pranked by a shadow organisation.
>Time travellers who were lost and a bit pissed off.
>I met the devs of the simulation we exist in.

Some day I hope to find out. I'd like my own spaceship so I can go looking.

>>11951267
What I saw of the craft was a lot of flashing lights of different colours. They were so bright I could not see the shape of the actual craft. The rumours are that the triangles are ours, retroengineered technology. Discs are supposed to be theirs. When I was being confronted I was in the center of a large round room with dark alcoves around the side.

>>11951313
not all objects are advanced vehicles

>>11951306
The Nimitz pilot (David Fravor) has said on Joe Rogan that they didn't confiscate anything from him, that nobody cut the footage, and that no men in black came to talk to him, his video simply sat on some hard drive connected to SIRPNET until someone leaked it.

Again, pushing for a conspiracy theory that just isn't there. Why am I more familiar with the case than you?

>>11951315
>>11951310
Well they aren't "confirmed vehicles of advanced origin", either.

>>11951313

It´s a bit more than confirming the mere definition of UFOs, which is in fact just a description of anything unidentifiable in the air.

We now know that these things are intelligently controlled crafts with highly advanced capabilities no earthbound military has in it´s inventory.

>>11951320
The OP is claiming that something is "confirmed" when it isn't.

>>11951330

>Well they aren't "confirmed vehicles of advanced origin", either.

Yes they are. There is literally no other way to descibe them.

>>11951335

But it is mate. The Pentagon confirmed the videos are genuine which implicates that the recorded objects/crafts are real and unidentified.

>>11951330
FLIR1 wasn't Fravor's video, it was recorded on a later flight.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/tic-tac-ufo-video-q-and-a-with-navy-pilot-chad-underwood.html

>>11951337
Those thermal videos could be anything.
The idea that they were moving at supersonic speeds has been debunked here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1di0XIa9RQ

>>11951339
An unidentified object is not necessarily a vehicle. It's what it says on the tin. An unidentified object.

>>11951345
>https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/tic-tac-ufo-video-q-and-a-with-navy-pilot-chad-underwood.html
Yeah, and the guy in your article confirms Fravor's account, that nobody came to confiscate stuff from them.

>>11950306
>Where are the technosignatures, /x/ schizo?
Here:

http://home.fnal.gov/~carrigan/infrared_astronomy/Fermilab_search.htm
he search focused on a temperature range of 100 to 600 �K leaving about 6521 sources. No cut was made on proximity to other sources. By doing this partial Dyson spheres were not ruled out. As noted on the Dyson Sphere look-alike page there are several natural surrogates that are difficult to rule out. Several cuts were used on the LRS sample to focus in on a Dyson Sphere signature. These included temperature, classification, and visual scans in SIMBAD. This led to a sample of 17 weak and ambiguous candidates

>>11951353
The navy has said that they cant explain them at all. There is nothing we know of that can move how it did without emitting any kind of propulsion gasses. We know what it isn't, what it is is up for debate.

>>11951017
>A grainy infrared video is not going to change my mind. You are putting too much faith on the competency and reliability of a few pilots, while ignoring the entirety of astrophysicists, astronomers and experts on Earth.
So, he’s an American.

>>11951359
...

Good job making an off topic post.
I was obviously referring to the technosignatures from the UFOs on Earth.

>>11951360
So you admit they aren't "confirmed vehicles of advanced origin" as the OP claims? Great I'm done here, I can finally leave this shitty thread.

>>11951034
>gaslit
That’s SJWese for being told you’re full of shit when you are, in fact, full of shit but the person telling you is huwyatt.

>>11951353
>>11951335
The senate bill does call them "anomalous aerial vehicles" at one point.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CRPT-116srpt233/pdf/CRPT-116srpt233.pdf

>>11951353
>An unidentified object is not necessarily a vehicle. It's what it says on the tin. An unidentified object.

Correct. But as soon as a aerial object exhibits intelligent control, it becomes a vehicle. Which obviously happened.

>>11951369
>So you admit they aren't "confirmed vehicles of advanced origin" as the OP claims? Great I'm done here, I can finally leave this shitty thread.

>Leaving this thread

Good Idea!

>>11951353
>debunked
>links some random literal who YouTube niggers video
Kill yourself.

>>11951357
I didn't say anything about the tapes being confiscated, but you should get the facts straight.

>>11950354
>technology we don't understand
>lol it's not aliens though
well then what is it smartie pants?
>inb4 lol i dunno

>>11951388
That's Mick West retard. He has peer reviewed papers to his name and a decades long history debunking this bullshit.

What have you published?

>>11950276

>>11951421

>Mick West

Isn´t that the guy who tried to debunk these very videos and made a complete fool out of himself?

>Duh its seagulls and jet exhaust n sheeiiitt

Funny guy but clearly not very bright.

>>11951372
Yeh. People like you are part of the problem. But I am going to confront one of your statements.

>>11951294
>Meanwhile you are implying a decades-long conspiracy held by all the governments, astronomers and satellite operators in the world on which not a single shred of hard evidence of ayyys managed to leak out.

Well now. I wonder why people who see things or even have evidence do not speak out. It wouldn't be out of fear of being labelled a nutjob by people like you would it. There is suppression of imformation as well.

As for governments being unwilling to enact full disclosure... No government wants to admit to the world, and their own people, that they are literally powerless. Add to that they are all hoping the other governments think these craft are theirs. "Hah! You better be afraid. Those were OUR craft."

>>11951310
I have read some interesting stuff about rotating metallic fluids in documents which have been posted here in the past. It would be nice if some anon could post the links again.

>>11951436
Nah he did a pretty good job, did you watch the video?

>>11951239
There's no academic consensus "have been observed" since the Advent of secret aerospace projects.

What's more likely smart people in good college's are wrong or you're just part of a vast easily maleable idiotic mass?

>>11950280
who said anything about aliens

>>11951017
>without any detectable disturbance in gravitational waves, no wake on the oceans, none of our myriad of space telescopes, satellites and ground research stations able to detect them, no evidence of communication signals, radio, light, etc?
i don't agree with him but the earth and space are big. it's very easy to miss something hence why we don't know about most things and are constantly searching. there is no infrastructure that could detect ayyy spaceships coming in.

>>11950276
>>UFOs are now officially confirmed real as advanced vehicles of unknown origin.
Source?

>>11950314
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7jcBGLIpus

>inb4 REEEEE MICK WEST REEEEE

>>11950763
So not able to be identified = "confirmed real as advanced vehicles of unknown origin?"

Retard.

>>11950276

>>11951639
Either our best and brightest scientists pilots, police officers, astronauts, people much smarter than you have no idea what they are talking about, or there are objects that are intelligently controlled flying against the wind, in our oceans, our atmosphere, our airports, military bases, and nuclear power plants.

Imagine being abducted in the middle of the night buy a stick figure either an owl head. Spooky

>>11951698
>Either our best and brightest scientists pilots, police officers, astronauts, people much smarter than you have no idea what they are talking about
Please show the best and brightest disagreeing with anything I've said.

>or there are objects that are intelligently controlled flying against the wind, in our oceans, our atmosphere, our airports, military bases, and nuclear power plants.
Yes, they're called airplanes. Retard.

>>11950276
>Somehow the scientific community doesn't give a shit
Maybe it's the scientific community who knows better than anyone how dangerous it is to actually pull the veil back on that instead of just shouting AYLIANS!!!!

>>11950831
>be a lifeform so intelligent and advanced you can master high speed space travel
>can't figure out how to boof an atom
Nothing will come here for our technology because the tech needed just to make it here is beyond our absolute highest capabilities. It's like taking a helicopter to a jungle shanty to learn from their infinite wisdom

>>11950345
>thinking fails. why are they here? it makes ZERO sense.
As if we wouldn't do the same and visit other planets if we could.

>>11950276
>the physics of gravity control

>>11950317
>the best solution for the fermi paradox to date is a massive MIB style coverup.
There doesn't seem to be any reasonable reason why tge governments would want to hide the existence of aliens from people. If there is a coverup, it's by the aliens themselves & they are most likely hostile.
>>11950797
>If Ayys are actually here why would they hide?
They might have hostile intentions.
>If they are hiding how did they get caught?
They are not that good.
>>11951017
>>11951045
>>11951156
Any sufficiently advanced signal is indistinguishable from noise;you won't find it unless you know what you're looking for. That is the case especially for highly robust signals intended for long distance communications. If they use phase arrays or lasers, chances are there is not enough signal to detect, less alone decode, if you are not the intended target.

>>11952312
>massive MIB style coverup.
I think this a gigantic misallocation of the blame which should rightly be attributed to the massive conspiracy of silence. One party sweeps it under the rug. Another party says, "Oh, they swept it under the rug? It's gone now, then. Oh, well."

>>11951633
His ass obviously.

>>11951738
I didn't know airplanes glow, or travel faster than our fastest fighter jets. But you were there, you saw them apparently.

>>11951738
You just stay in your little bubble. It's more comfortable for you.

>>11951525
>Nah he did a pretty good job, did you watch the video?

I actually did and couldn´t stop cringing about that amount of idiocy. Imagine telling pilots and radar operators that they have been seeing hypersonic seagulls and balloons.

Toppest kek,

>>11952496
NTA, while I do believe the pilots and radar operators have witnessed some anomalous phenomena, the public videos don't show anything that's undeniably otherworldly.

>>11952522

>the public videos don't show anything that's undeniably otherworldly.

And that´s the reason why dumb people like Mike West are trying everything to shift the focus away from the corroborating data to only the videos. It´s so obvious low effort debunking, it´s almost laughable.

But yeah, the videos alone do not look very exciting. But when you hear radar operator Kevin Day describing them dropping from 28.000 ft to sealevel in 1.78 seconds, the whole picture changes dramatically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e9NoKp8EnE&t

>X IS REAL!
>do you have some evidence?
>well, i mean, there's like, a big conspiracy to hide it, so no
Now you've seen everything there is to see in this and any other /x/ thread.

>>11952676
what?

spaaaaaaaace

this is the conspiracy have fun.

>>11951171
But you keep saying there's a ton of proof and that we should believe in it. Now you say the 'proof' is hidden behind closed doors.

>>11952656
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I've seen one myself.

Ufos exist yall just bots

>>11952733
ive also seen an ufo as a kid going through the mountains it flashed red and purple then zoomed off

>>11950314
You know those are birds right?

commenting to non sentient ai won't do you any good.

4chan is normie bound been here since the gold.

>>11951239
>Occams Razor is about the simplest possibility to be the most likely to be true.
>These things have been observed not since we are able to built jets that reach supersonic flight. They have been observed by pilots in WW2 and earlier.
>So when you say that it´s just some classified black project, you implicate that someone had antigravity-tech long before anyone had the jet engine or any flying craft for that matter.
>Seems not very likely does it?
>Oh and the fact that you need to resort to these kinds of unlikely scenarios and spice them up with some rather childish insults is pretty telling.
>Just think something through before you embarass yourself with these kinds of logical errors.

I agree with you in regards to OP using Occam's Razor incorrectly.
Although I disagree with your use of it.
Let's define Occam's razor that we can all agree upon.
"Occam's razor, or law of parsimony is the problem-solving principle that "entities should not be multiplied without necessity."
Now let's consider 2 possibilities for these sightings
1)Man made/Natural
2) Extraterrestrial
If you take into account man made as the answer, there are few assumptions such as
a) Some kind of government secret plane
b) A natural phenomenon

Now consider the second one
Few assumptions that I could think of
a) Existence of Type 2/3 civilizations
b) Existence of supernatural speeds of travel
c) Existence of exotic energy
d) Existence of similar kinds of civilizations all over the universe

By this, the second options i.e. aliens, has more assumptions than an earthly explanation.

>not scientific
I agree. But it's a good heuristic. So you can't just dismiss it.

Demons, satanists, transhumanists don't exist, I only talk about what can be proven.

>>11952695
It's from the 2021 Intelligence Authorization Act.
https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/press-releases/inhofe-reed-praise-senate-passage-of-national-defense-authorization-act-of-fiscal-year-2021
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/3905

>>11951315
>>11951320
Not him, but the natural implication of your statement is that "aliens do exist and those are indeed aliens". You never outright mentioned it, you did imply.

>>11952781
d) Existence of similar kinds of civilizations all over the universe.
anuunaki exist and they want us dead and out of their way for the dimensional gates.

>>11951360
>The navy has said that they cant explain them at all
I think you're misunderstanding what the navy means when they say
>can't explain
What they mean is that, they cannot definitely state whether those were advanced crafts or natural shit. They most likely have an idea of what it maybe.

>>11951360
>>11952823
That inherently doesn't warrant an extraterrestrial explanation.

>>11951397
But neither can you conclusively say, what it is.

electromagnetics plus certain crystals. And or decibel devices, those would be deadly though.

>>11951437
>As for governments being unwilling to enact full disclosure... No government wants to admit to the world, and their own people, that they are literally powerless. Add to that they are all hoping the other governments think these craft are theirs. "Hah! You better be afraid. Those were OUR craft."
Agreed. But if these aliens are so powerful, why haven't they wrecked havoc yet?

They the aliens need control over humanity for their plans to work. Their biological bodies can not be sustained here for long.

>>11951698
>Either our best and brightest scientists pilots, police officers, astronauts, people much smarter than you have no idea what they are talking about
I've never heard of the best and the brightest talk about this. They've always been skeptical and maintained that life could surely exist, but never been obdurate that these were alien crafts.

>>11951397
>>11952805
What about another intelligent terrestrial race?

>>11951045
>Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
False

Hybrids are controlled not knowing what they do.

>>11952871
Agreed. But the problem is that you assume that they some how were capable of traveling at least 0.05AU and back. Isn't that too much?

Understand yourself.
https://youtu.be/K1hWXo6w5xc

>>11952871
>>11952886
Also, they've never made any contact with us. They never shared any details about their civilization, while we've sent our stuff in voyager itself.

Take with a grain of salt, might have some memes tho.
https://youtu.be/pz7nhinhIUU

>>11952869

>>11952926
I know about these guys. But this is a small group of people, just 4 actually. I haven't seen the wider scientific community, expressing any opinions.

>>11950354
literally no one except you said that it was aliens

>>11951243
>>11951294
that's a weather balloon

>>11952943
There are a few who've recently written opinion pieces in favor of the scientific study of UFOs.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unidentified-aerial-phenomena-better-known-as-ufos-deserve-scientific-investigation/
https://theconversation.com/are-we-alone-the-question-is-worthy-of-serious-scientific-study-98843

"Fewer than 10% of reported sightings remain unexplained after proper investigation, and therefore can be classified as unidentified in the strictest sense. While proponents of the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH) suggest these unexplained reports are of alien spacecraft, the null hypothesis cannot be excluded that these reports are simply other more prosaic phenomena which cannot be identified due to lack of complete information or due to the necessary subjectivity of the reports. Instead of accepting the null hypothesis, UFO enthusiasts tend to engage in special pleading by offering outlandish, untested explanations for the validity of the ETH. These violate Occam's razor."

>>11952857
>why haven't they wrecked havoc yet?

I can't answer this without sounding coo-coo but here goes...

They have in the past. They have also attempted to save more advanced (socially and scientifically) human civilisations whom they favoured in the past. But they were ignored. Something changed within their society and their policy changed to one of non-interference and observation. With limitations.

Now here is the big one... They also believe in a God. They have morals and ethics. Arguably superior to ours. Our solar system seems slightly artificial to them. Some of them are hoping we may eventually lead them toward spiritual enlightenment.

Consider these statements possibilities instead of facts.

>>11952760
Most normies believe in retarded ayyylmao shit.
YOU are the normie.

>>11952926
Did you actually read that image?

Because on that article Sagan and Morrison are actually discounting UFOs and claiming there's no quality evidence to support their existence, while Hynek and Sturrock said it was a phenomena worth investigating, not that they were ayys or advanced craft.

So your picture is supporting the skeptic position.

>master physics of gravity and ftl travel
>get caught on polaroid camera
pick one and only one

>>11952748
no, it's superman anon

>>11950276
So somebody has the physical evidence of extraterrestrial spacecraft piloted by extraterrestrial intelligence. Sweet. Just get them to produce it so it can be independently verified by multiple sources.

>>11950276
Ah yes. Space Cortez.

>>11953411
>Consider these statements possibilities instead of facts.
Agree.

>>11953411
>They have in the past
Could you provide sauce?

>>11952733
And anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all. I actually looked in every single planet and can tell you there's no life out there.

>>11953502
>Could you provide sauce?
Anecdotal evidence only. A couple of incidents were mentioned in my confrontation. Their statements indicated that, in the far past, attempts were made to prune less desirable civilisations in an attempt to guide us toward enlightenment. There are a few examples in our ancient history which may be relevant.

Then there was Atlantis. They really, really liked Atlaneans. Problem was their city was built around and inside the rim of a supervolcano. Despite being warned they elected to remain in their city, and the volcano erupted. A great tredgedy and another lesson for them of our "near endless stupidity".

Again, my experiences are my own. Just consider these possibilities.

>>11953566
We have not yet even proven there is no life on our own moon or neighbouring planets.

>>11950785

They are likely Alien agents trying to keep humanity from waking up.

>>11951031
>>11951034

Thank you for posting your thoughts and experience.

I saw a UFO a few weeks ago. I saw a bright object in the sky and I knew that there was no star/planet that could explain it. Grabbed some binocs and it looked like a black hole with a bright accretion ring. The moment I told my family to look clouds rolled in and it was gone.

>>11953758
Atlantis ruined the planet when they invented metallurgy.

>>11953822
I think we started ruining things a long time before Atlantis.

>>11953475
Hynek and Sturrock said it was a phenomenon worth investigating because they were convinced the phenomenon was real and exotic in nature.

>>11952476
Wow, you're so enlightened and special, like Morpheus.

>>11952474
>makes claims about magic UFOs
>never provides evidence
Typical UFOtard

>>11952496
>hypersonic seagulls
So you didn't watch the video.

>>11952592
He didn't see anything drop. He saw two radar signals in two different places. There's no reason to think it's the same object.

>>11953875
Hence the poster I replied to, is an idiot for bringing that article up as "evidence that the best and brightest of humanity" believed these were "confirmed vehicles of advanced origin".

>>11952733
>Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
It is though. If evidence has a nonzero chance of being found then its absence increases the probability of absence.

>>11953831
It made blood turn red and the soil rot away.

>>11952730
>But you keep saying there's a ton of proof and that we should believe in it. Now you say the 'proof' is hidden behind closed doors.

I never said anything about tons of proof. I stated that the pentagon confirmed the released videos of unidentified advanced vehicles to be genuine.
The implications so not seem to bother anyone.

>>11953484
>Space Cortez

>le nothing that isn´t peer reviewed can be true.

>>11953954
I'm unsure what to make of this. If it is a reference to the blue blood then I think we have different interpretations. Soil rotting away seems to be more a result of modern agricultural techniques and it seems unfair to place the blame for this solely upon metallurgy.

>>11953914
The article mainly addresses the "They've always been skeptical and maintained that life could surely exist" part, Hynek's "We can't yet prove visitors from another solar system but we know it's more than fools the eye or deludes the fool." certainly goes further than "maintaining extraterrestrial life could surely exist".

>>11953758
But I looked into EVERY planet, anon. Every millimeter. I scoured them all. There's no life. Do you not believe me or something?

>>11953913
>He didn't see anything drop. He saw two radar signals in two different places. There's no reason to think it's the same object.

Yeah sure a solid radar contact with specific characteristics just disappears at 28.000 ft and the exact same contact reappears at sealevel 1.78 seconds later.

So either we are talking insane speeds or outright teleportation because when Kevin Day tracked these things, he could clearly tell from the returned radar data, that it was in fact the same object.

But hey let´s just doubt the abilities or the santíty of these highly trained and experienced professionals who didn´t do anything other than identifying radar contacts all day long for years.

>the scientific community cares nothing about things you can't verify or test
what a fucking surprise

>>11954820
>what a fucking surprise

Yeah actually that is a surprise because why wouldn´t science be interested in understanding a obviously real phenomenon.

The whole thinking and problem solving these days moves inside a carefully manufactured area of legitimate issues and as soon as something happens outside of this perimeter it´s being called bullshit.

Pretty amazing how science itself has lost it´s original purpose of understanding the unknown and uncovering the workings of our reality.

I´m glad there are some curious souls left out there searching for genuine truth rather than jerking off of irrelevant peer-reviewed papers nobody reads.

>>11950276
times shits out crap like this during times of national turbulence

The Lockheed engineers who designed the U-2, SR-71 and other top secret aircrafts had their own UFO sightings.
http://www.nicap.org/docs/lockufo3.pdf

Clarence Johnson himself stated the following in his report to the Air Force UFO investigation
>I should state that for at least five years I have definitely believed in the possibility that flying saucers exist - this in spite of a good deal of kidding from my technical associates. Having seen this particular object on December 16th, I am now more firmly convinced than ever that such devices exist, and I have some highly technical converts in this belief as of that date.

>>11954845
Science says they are birds, you are the one ignoring science.

>>11955213
Who is science?

>>11955220
It's a process when applied to the videos (which have their camera details pretty much right there on the screen) confirms that the "objects" are the size of a bird moving at the speed of a bird

>>11950276
so many schizoids in this thread
you need to be hospitalized.

>>11955223
This is only the case for GOFAST and what about "the size of a bird moving at the speed of a bird" confirms it's a bird? There are balloons and drones that can have similar properties.

>>11955213

So one random idiot on youtube comes up with ridiculous explanations for these craft and out the window goes the opinion of pilots, radar operators and the whole US intelligence community. Makes perferct sense.

>>11955288
Funny thing is Mick West doesn't even firmly believe it was birds.

>>11955288
>So one random idiot on youtube comes up with ridiculous explanations
You mean like aliens?

>out the window goes the opinion of pilots, radar operators and the whole US intelligence community.
You retards keep repeating this without ever actually showing any of them disagreeing with Mick West.

>>11955288
What a dude says is secondary to what the video actually shows. That's how science works yes.

>>11955241
Conceded that it could be a drone masked as a bird as well, it doesn't really make it interesting either way.

>>11955188
>one guy is a UFO nut
>therefore every engineer, scientist, pilot, intelligence officer, etc. is
UFOtards are so predictable.

>>11955320
It wasn't just one guy, read their report. Neither did I say everyone in the military and intelligence sector believes in extraterrestrial crafts.

>>11954791
>exact same contact
And as we all know it's impossible for two objects to have the same characteristics on a radar return, or for radar to have glitches...

>So either we are talking insane speeds or outright teleportation
Or not.

>he could clearly tell from the returned radar data, that it was in fact the same object.
How?

>But hey let´s just doubt the abilities or the santíty of these highly trained and experienced professionals who didn´t do anything other than identifying radar contacts all day long for years.
Right, let's take everything they say and exaggerate it.

>>11955328
>It wasn't just one guy,
Oh wow, *two* guys.

Everyone has some nutty belief and you are going to have multiple people sharing a nutty belief in any large enough group. It doesn't mean anything, but UFOtards will constantly bring it up because they can only grasp at straws.

>>11955297
>You retards keep repeating this without ever actually showing any of them disagreeing with Mick West.

They don´t bother with these kind of idiots obviously. No one with more than 2 braincells would. They sure as hell know better what they are looking at.

And for that matter, maybe you should listen to what they have to say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2zRabdvKnw&t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YhlvUg2yk4&t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kycZgGc-Yec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnvA5WZ1QV4&t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QawDa0-UlnA&t

>>11955354
You haven't even looked at what Mick said, you're incredibly retarded.

>>11955350
>Oh wow, *two* guys.
Chief Engineer, Chief Aerodynamics Engineer, Chief Flight Test Engineer, an Engineering Test Pilot
They witnessed the same object independently from 2 angles. I'm not saying they definitely witnessed an extraterrestrial spacecraft, but the military certainly wasn't responsible for all the saucer sightings like some people like to say.

>>11955391
Most cases are simply mistakes and optical illusions, not actual crafts. Eyewitnesses are fallible, even people who are experts in something.

>>11955365

I am incredibly retarded for ignoring obvious shills, that seek attention and financial revenue by bringing forward outlandish and laughable explanations that directly contradict the observations from military personell?

Yeah then i´m gladly retarded.

>>11955395

Multiple radar systems from different platforms would have to fail (which they did not, the USS princeton rebooted their whole radar system just to be sure) as well as multiple military personell on different platforms would have to imagine the same thing that was previously tracked on radar.

And you are the one calling others retarded. Congratilations.

>>11955401
>I am incredibly retarded for ignoring obvious shills
You're incredibly retarded for calling people who disagree with you shills and ignoring analysis because you have no argument.

>directly contradict the observations from military personell?
How? I keep asking you how they conflict and you never actually tell me, either you don't know what you're arguing against or already know they don't conflict.

>>11955412
>Multiple radar systems from different platforms would have to fail
Why?

>multiple military personell on different platforms would have to imagine the same thing that was previously tracked on radar.
You don't even know that what was tracked by radar is the same as what the pilots saw. In fact, the pilots specifically said what they saw was not where radar said it would be. Nice assumptions.

>>11955395
What kind of mistakes and optical illusions do you propose as an explanation for the sighting?
http://www.project1947.com/fig/lockufo53.htm

>>11955414

>You're incredibly retarded for calling people who disagree with you shills and ignoring analysis because you have no argument.
>Calling Mick Wests cognitive diarrhea analysis.

Hahaha oh wow. Nobody takes him seriously,

>How? I keep asking you how they conflict and you never actually tell me, either you don't know what you're arguing against or already know they don't conflict.

I actually did but you obviously ignored them because that´s how you keep people in these threads from discussing the issue seriously.

>>11955420
>You don't even know that what was tracked by radar is the same as what the pilots saw. In fact, the pilots specifically said what they saw was not where radar said it would be. Nice assumptions.

The fucking radar operators send the pilots to the contacts and then the pilots visually confirmed them. You just keep ignoring the data that doesn´t fit your narrative.

>>11955420
Fravor specifically said they merged with the tictac on radar.

>>11955425
Oh right, it was definitely aliens.

>>11955435
So no argument and no explanation of how they conflict, as I predicted. Thanks for admitting you're retarded.

>>11955442
>The fucking radar operators send the pilots to the contacts and then the pilots visually confirmed them.
But the radar and the eyewitness accounts don't agree. I understand you want them to agree and assume they do, but they don't.

>>11955468
>But the radar and the eyewitness accounts don't agree. I understand you want them to agree and assume they do, but they don't.

They do not agree aón two things. First is the length of the obtained footage and second is the removal of all related data recordings from the carrier strike group by unknown military personell.

There are no disagreements on the incident itself or the characteristics of the crafts.

>>11955463

So no argument and no explanation of how they conflict, as I predicted. Thanks for admitting you're retarded.

Watch the seamen i posted.

>>11955463
>>11955414
Underwood, the pilot who captured FLIR1, aknowledges that the public clip is ambiguous at best. But he also claims to have witnessed extremely erratic behaviour by the object.
>The thing that stood out to me the most was how erratic it was behaving. And what I mean by “erratic” is that its changes in altitude, air speed, and aspect were just unlike things that I’ve ever encountered before flying against other air targets. It was just behaving in ways that aren’t physically normal. That’s what caught my eye.
This contradicts the idea that it was a conventional aircraft.

>>11955459
It remains unidentifed then.

>>11955480
>First is the length of the obtained footage and second is the removal of all related data recordings from the carrier strike group by unknown military personell.
Had nothing to do with what we're talking about.

>There are no disagreements on the incident itself
Wrong.

>or the characteristics of the crafts.
What characteristics do they agree on?

>>11955481
>So no argument and no explanation of how they conflict
You didn't ask, you were too busy throwing out baseless insults.

>as I predicted
Where?

>Watch the seamen i posted.
I did.

>>11955483
>This contradicts the idea that it was a conventional aircraft.
No, it contradicts the idea that pilots know everything. And since this behavior wasn't caught on video, we will probably never know what it was.

>>11955494
Where did I say it was identified?

>>11951978
>>can't figure out how to boof an atom
>Nothing will come here for our technology
Who said anything about coming for our tech? I wrote they are surveying Earth biota, having been potentially signaled by our nuclear weapons.
>boof
Is English not your first language?

>>11955641
The pilots know more than you, and they seem pretty damn convinced. John Lear says they are alien craft.

>>11951243
Swamp gas

>>11955738
And you think they can't feign this?

>>11950280
RETARDED take

Universe is just mathematics, that's why there's planets and galaxies and stars and they all take the same forms. Do you think this likeness of forms stops at the planetary level? The universe is like a piece of clockwork, everything follows a necessary path and what you find in one place you will find in another because by necessity they took the same path due to the laws of the universe. If aliens DON'T exist I'd be much more surprised than if they do.

>>11950276
>>UFOs are now officially confirmed real as advanced vehicles of unknown origin.
>someone told me something without providing conclusive evidence and I believed it (or I'm a shill)
>>Something or someone evidentely has mastered the physics of gravity control and FTL travel.
>I like supposing things because it makes me sound like an intellectual
>>They operate in restricted military airspace with impunity.
>I like to pretend that I know things that only the highest ranked members of the military could know

>>11956271
>>someone told me something without providing conclusive evidence and I believed it (or I'm a shill)
>>I like to pretend that I know things that only the highest ranked members of the military could know
OP is paraphrasing Rubio, the acting chairman of the US senate intelligence committee, who's been briefed on this matter.
https://youtu.be/xPs0eA05Bgo?t=69
https://youtu.be/be8M8tzvAnA?t=71

>>11950659
>lists at least one logical explanation
Not him.
I'm curios what that one is. The guy annihilated you by asking why don't they simply use satellites you keep living like its a 1950s SF movie where the aliens need to fly with their planes in our atmosphere.

>>11950763
>pentagon
>muh pentagon
How do you jump from UFO to aliens? (UFO unidentified flaying object)
Did you start to think that Russia developed new spy drone? No? Why aliens? There are far more reasonable explorations enough intelligence on this planet no need to immanent some outer space ones.

Did you UFO fags ever stop and think that the government can simply by fuckign with you? Planing a alien hoax and flying around with their US made drones or robots?

>>11956335
Pretending to understand and anthropomorphize the actions of a potential alien visitor.

>>11956329
Yadayada. Wake me up when some actual evidence emerges.

>>11956352
>Pretending to understand and anthropomorphize the actions of a potential alien visitor.
Wait what? What is your position? Who is doing what in your theory?

>>11956335
Why don't we use satellites to study deep sea creatures? Maybe they are studying things that require close range sensors.

>>11956271
Someone told this with nothing to gain, no motive other than to spread the truth. In most cases, releasing this information affects the victims life in a negative way.
You can choose to accept their testimony or not, but don't act like it's not at least a possibility.

>>11956356
Anyone who tries to speculate about the actions of a being that is at least centuries ahead of us technologically.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4121639

>>11956357
>Why don't we use satellites to study deep sea creatures?
To believe in UFO shit you need to believe that humans always where and will be "deep sea creatures"

>Maybe they are studying things that require close range sensors.
Modern satellites get good enough resolution.

>Maybe they are studying things that require close range sensors.
You understand how stupid this is? in 20 years we will be able to make drones that are the size of insects. Why fly around in gigantic alien planes?

Do you seriously think the aliens are stuck in a 1950s Scientology/SF technology? Where a maned crew needs to be in a big ass alien plane?

>>11956368
>ahead of us technologically.
That somehow magically insist on using 1950s tech? Did these "at least centuries ahead of us technologically" jokers never hear of satellites or miniaturization and drones?

>>11951978
>>can't figure out how to boof an atom
I'm more surprised they can not figure out how to make satellites or use miniaturization to release nano bots to gather all info.

Not got to ride the gigantic alien plane in airspace.

>>11956374
You have no idea what they are using or why they might be here. They do very unusual things. Inexplicable things. Its called "high strangeness" and you would know this if you had ever looked into the witness reports.

https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/ufo/

https://vault.fbi.gov/UFO

>>11956371
>Modern satellites get good enough resolution.
Who says they only care about optical data? Not all information penetrates the atmosphere easily.
>in 20 years we will be able to make drones that are the size of insects.
Will they be able to conduct MRI scans? Not all technology is equally miniaturized or miniaturizable.

So to sum things up:

Eye witness accounts of highly trained and credible military personell do not count as solid data.

It's basically cold seagulls, weather balloons and swamp gas and Equipment malfunctions.

/thread

>>11956385
It's people claiming to know more than trained professionals about a subject they've never even looked into.

>>11956374
>miniaturization and drones?
Sensors might be impossible to miniaturize, at least by our current understanding they are. The resolution us limuted by its size.

>>11951397
>well then what is it smartie pants?
Russia.
Any human government.
See: >>11956343

>>11956395
>Be advanced alien
>Can build star ship
>Mastered miniaturization
>Can send swarms of nanobots to analyse all life even on the inside of the organism, using advanced AI and combining all data points get a recording that is far superior to any camera and far more detailed.
>Be capable of true 3D capture using predictive AI to fill the gaps in data.
>Decide to ignore all this shit and simply fly with your 1950s alien plane and capture some hick and shove a stick up his ass.

>>11956343
>Did you start to think that Russia developed new spy drone? No?
Military sightings of UFOs aren't new.
>Did you UFO fags ever stop and think that the government can simply by fuckign with you? Planing a alien hoax and flying around with their US made drones or robots?
Government false flags are a big part of UFO conspiracy folklore.

>>11956407
>Government false flags are a big part of UFO conspiracy folklore.
How did you eliminate the government faking aliens using their 20 years in the future tech then?

>Military sightings of UFOs aren't new.
This literally is not engaging with the question.
I repeat how did you eliminate other governments making new planes/drones and using it to spy on one another?
>Muh military
Yes and?
its Russia or USSR if you go back further. Explains getting classified so the enemy does not know we can see their clocked planes/drones.

Why do you jump from "this dot moves strange on my radar" to "it literally can only be aliens from another solar system"

You skipped Multiple, MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE OTHER EXPLANATIONS!

>>11956402
Reptilian cryptoterrestrials don't need to figure out interstellar travel to zip around on earth.

>>11956420
>"it literally can only be aliens from another solar system"
I've never said this.
>I repeat how did you eliminate other governments making new planes/drones and using it to spy on one another?
They certainly account for some sightings. But the reported behaviour of UAPs doesn't really differ from what was seen a century ago, I'd wager there's more to the phenomenon than just spy jets. Especially when the people who designed and flew those jets had their own sightings.

>>11956421
Cool, so you finally cooled of from
"THIS MUST BE FROM ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM"

>Reptilian

>cryptoterrestrials
Did you consider they can be from the anti-earth?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikBij1SbGs0

>Reptilian
OH then its even worse.
>Be Reptilian
>infiltrate all worlds government
>Be masked and walk amount humans
>Control all worlds governments
>Can fly in normal human airplanes since you control all world government
>Decide to fuck that shit and fly around in your alien plane simply because.
>Decide to stick up some hick up the ass
Do these Reptilians have a ass fetish or some shit? Can they not find some human perverts who want to be sticked up the ass?

>>Reptilian
The guy who is talking about them Davide Icke is the definition of schizophrenic.

>>11956402
Are you retarded? The resolution is limuted by the sensor size. No tech or AI can "fix" it. No nanobot sensors.

>>11956446
>be advanced alien civilization
>have the tech to travel lightyears
>have the tech to avoid radar
>have the tech to avoid heat signatures
>still have shit AI

>>11956441
>UAPs
Ok what is this?
>what was seen a century ago
Like what exactly?
>Especially when the people who designed and flew those jets had their own sightings.
what part of "The Ruskies have a more advanced sky plain then us in the USA who are seeing this" Don't you understand?

>>11950317
>>11952312
>the best solution for the fermi paradox
There is no paradox only kids who grew up on SF thinking aliens are everywhere.
The earth is the only habitable planet.
Rare earth for the win.

>>11956454
>Ok what is this?
Unexplained Aerial Phenomena

>Like what exactly?
Foo fighters for example. You can read about even older sightings here
https://archive.org/details/JacquesValleeChrisAubeckWondersInTheSkyUnexplainedAerialObjectsFromAntiquityToModernTimes/

>what part of "The Ruskies have a more advanced sky plain then us in the USA who are seeing this" Don't you understand?
I should have said "on both sides".

>>11951239
>>11951180
>The us armed forces are interested in people assuming strange stuff is aliens rather than something secret, this makes espionage harder. Most things that were thought alien in the past were confirmed to be military stuff later and the air force has been purposely vague in the past.

It's a simple trick designed to fool idiots so that the info is a bit harder to find. Of course you're just part of those idiotic masses.
Agree. I did not ever think about the US gov using idiots as a smoke screen, makes sense now.

>WW2 and earlier.
Muh WW2! you realize the Nazis did have the first jet engines and tested them during WW2?
>Y U Have jet engines as UFOs in WW2 ?
You go figure that one out on your own.

>>11952474
>I didn't know airplanes glow, or travel faster than our fastest fighter jets.
See >>11951636. The released videos all have reasonable explanations that have nothing to do with aliens.

>>11952781
>Occams Razor
is bullshit. Here how it looks:
Evidence other governments exist proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Evidence other governments have military proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Evidence these governments are developing new technology in secret proven.
Evidence that they can have more advanced tech? Very possible.

Vs Evidence for aliens, zero, no evince for aliens.

UFO retards be like
>It must be aliens from a different galaxy that is the only explanation!

>>11952813
>d) Existence of similar kinds of civilizations all over the universe.
anuunaki exist and they want us dead and out of their way for the dimensional gates.
Tune in on the next episode of Star Gate! To see the thrilling conclusion to this story line!

>>11956443
>"THIS MUST BE FROM ANOTHER SOLAR SYSTEM"
Again, I've never said this.
>>Be Reptilian
>>infiltrate all worlds government
>>Be masked and walk amount humans
>>Control all worlds governments
>>Can fly in normal human airplanes since you control all world government
>>Decide to fuck that shit and fly around in your alien plane simply because.
>>Decide to stick up some hick up the ass
That's an oddly specific version of the reptilian cryptoterrestrials scenario.

>>11955401
>that directly contradict the observations from military personell
They're humans, they can be fooled by what they see just like everyone else. They're also pilots, chosen for their skill, not their knowledge of physics.

>>11951287
UFO fag logic
>The government is covering up aliens and tells lies!
also UFO fag
>We must trust everything these government pilots say!

A bit of a massive self contradiction there.

Did you ever consider that the US military has a rich history of doing experiments on its own? Did you think these US GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES are ordered to lie to trick the masses into thinking UFOs are real?

My best example is form some /x/ fag who did have a uncle (or whatever) who was in them military and did see spooky alien shit and was ordered to never tell anyone about it and then told others about it and was thrown out.

Did any of you jokers start to think that the military is doing these tricks to see what soldier actually will keep their mouth shut? Do spooky alien shit with some props and monitor UFO fag literature of anyone reporting this so you know exactly who did let this secret out (Everyone gets a different spooky maneuver).

>>11955738
>The pilots know more than you, and they seem pretty damn convinced.
This is so vague as to be meaningless. You haven't even given one example of where what I've said conflicts with what the pilots said.

>>11956451
Fucking retard, what does it have to do with "shit AI"? You can't have smaller sensors than wedo have, we are limited by the physics more than anything else, even with our tech. How hard to understand is that?

>>11956511
He mentioned using multiple probes. How's that not possible? Didn't we use the same method for that bhole photo?

>>11956271
>Trust politicians
>why would a politician tel lies ?
You look stupid.
So the UFO tards got a politician into the senate.

>>11956446
>No tech or AI can "fix"
It kind of can even on out tech level
>No nanobot sensors.
They could disperse cloud of tiny robots disguised as insects and achive unreal data collection and resolutions

>>11956511
>Fucking retard, what does it have to do with "shit AI"? You can't have smaller sensors than wedo have, we are limited by the physics more than anything else, even with our tech. How hard to understand is that?
4K camera says hello.
>>11956515
>He mentioned using multiple probes. How's that not possible?
Basically this.
picture it like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsYbbf6_v4I
Generating 3D visible structure from shit load of drones that are real time combined.

>>11956532
>4K camera says hello.
8K exists.......on earth........red cameras.....hmmmm

>>11956544
4K in phone same lenses size like HD.
This ends all this limit talk.

>>11956527
No, it can't fix it. It can add fake detail, useless when you are interested about seeing something for real.
>>11956548
>>11956532
4K is just 8megapixels. It's about being to save that much information, than the resolution itself.

>>11956392
I didn't know airforce pilots were trained in astrophysics

>>11956560
>No, it can't fix it. It can add fake detail, useless when you are interested about seeing something for real.
create bigger sensors....

>>11956504
>A bit of a massive self contradiction there.
Those pilots do not have to be part of the bureaucratic machinery and agree with all agency policies.
>Did you ever consider that the US military has a rich history of doing experiments on its own? Did you think these US GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES are ordered to lie to trick the masses into thinking UFOs are real?
>Did any of you jokers start to think that the military is doing these tricks to see what soldier actually will keep their mouth shut? Do spooky alien shit with some props and monitor UFO fag literature of anyone reporting this so you know exactly who did let this secret out (Everyone gets a different spooky maneuver).
There are many scenarios to consider, however these do not offer a satisfactory explanation for the worldwide observation of UAPs that has persisted for a long time.

>>11950276
>ELELMENT 151

Is it weird that people always seem to jump to the ufo angle, without even thinking that there could be other possibilities? Seems low iq to me.

>>11956590
People are dumb and believe what they want to believe

In order of likelihood

1. hoax
2. advanced secret tech
3. we live in a simulation and pay to win faggots dont RP properly
999999999. all of knowledge of physics is wrong and there is an advanced space faring FTL species who somehow have not figured out social media
9999999999999999999999999999999999999999. interdimensional aliens

>>11956582
>UAPs
For the last time what is a UAP ? Want to include others in your UFO speak?

>observation of UAPs that has persisted for a long time.
And who is telling you about these phenomena? The government. Aha I see.

>hose pilots do not have to be part of the bureaucratic machinery and agree with all agency policies.
Fun fact to be a UFO fag you need to live in a alternative universe where some carton government runs things.
Tell me what a court martial is?
Tell me what military classification is?
Tell me who Snowden is?

>>11950763
>How much more prrof do you need?
An awful lot more.

>>11956590
Yep.

You must understand UFO fags discard every possible explanation to jump to their alien stuff this is how they operate.

I think its good, they don't harm anyone. in previous ages they jump to conclusions that their neighbors are witches or that Satan is in the bushes because the bush moved strangely, whatever to keep them out of religion and do real harm.

Better for a UFO fag to think strange spots are UFOs from aliens then them thinking that their sister is a witch and was recorded in this way and BURN THE WITCH!

Do you think this can be the reason why the gov is faking all of this? To pacify idiots like these?

>>11956601
>For the last time what is a UAP ?
Not him, but UAP is Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon.

>>11956619
>UAP is Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon.
ok thanks is this the new name for a UFO? Because the word UFO is deprecated?

Why is aliens always the answer to UFOs? Isn't it more likely to be fairies or dragons that has been observed since ancient times? Those are a much more plausible answer than some far off extra-terrestial randomly visiting earth.

>>11950763
>proof
Let me explain.
The scientific community currently has 2 options. Everyone will agree with me on this.
1) Investigate it
2) Ignore it

I'll talk about the first one.
Let's call these sightings as 'experiments'.
The experiments have to prove or disprove our hypothesis - the existence of aliens
Some properties in order to prove/disprove our hypothesis includes:
1) Repeatability
2) Ability to draw observations
3) Ability to replicate

Note: There could be more. I'm no scientist. So these are what come to mind.

UFOs satisfy none of these. This is the precise reason why cryptids such as bigfoot cannot be studied, hence they're dismissed by the scientific community as a mere hoax.

>>11956601
>For the last time what is a UAP ?
>Want to include others in your UFO speak?
>And who is telling you about these phenomena? The government. Aha I see.
see >>11956475

>Fun fact to be a UFO fag you need to live in a alternative universe where some carton government runs things.
>Tell me what a court martial is?
>Tell me what military classification is?
>Tell me who Snowden is?
Snowden disagreed with agency policies and leaked classified documents. Gordon Cooper simply talked about his experiences which he didn't sign NDAs for.

>>11956642
>Isn't it more likely to be fairies or dragons that has been observed since ancient times?
I think it's Jesus. He could be the one. Remember how he flew up...to the heavens?

>>11956648
>Snowden disagreed with agency policies and leaked classified documents. Gordon Cooper simply talked about his experiences which he didn't sign NDAs for.

>Government can take down whistle blowers when they point out their illegal activity
>Government can not take down people who are telling the biggest secret there is (according to UFO fags)

You see how these things directly contradict one another?

>>Snowden disagreed with agency policies and leaked classified documents.
Aha so we are back to government telling you what is declassified and it wants you to know.
You concluded that government is not doing this to fool UFO fags, how exactly?

>>11956651
>>11956642
Since we entered /x/ territory what about the christian theory that all UFOs are fallen angels/demons (think neon Genesis Evangelion only if they are made more out of light)? Quite literally Satan is UFOs.

>>11956660
>Since we entered /x/ territory what about the christian theory that all UFOs are fallen angels/demons (think neon Genesis Evangelion only if they are made more out of light)? Quite literally Satan is UFOs.
Never heard of it. Don't know about how that explains all metallic noises, low rumblings etc.

>>11956660
Also muh Jezuz post was a joke. So don't take it seriously.

>>11956668
OK good to know, you also must know that this is 100% serious for some people.

I collect this kind of crazy.
Since we are in /x/ territory and YT is gay for purging conspiracy theories. What do you think?

I see it as a remix of the old into the new.

>>11956660
>Quite literally Satan is UFOs.
You know Satan is a fag for using metallic crafts when he could have come down in all his unholy glory.

RRREEEEE
>https://search.bitchute.com/renderer?query=Cryptoterrestrials
Gives zero results for
Cryptoterrestrials
Now I'm sad, I wanted to explore a whole new world of crazy and I'm getting cock blocked.

>>11956657
>You see how these things directly contradict one another?
No, you can easily persecute someone who leaks classified documents, this is not the case for people who are "just telling stories".

>>11956675
>What do you think?
UFO atheists > UFO Christians >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> christian fundamentalists.

Leaving that aside, it's highly unlikely that demons are UFOs. Doesn't make any sense.

>>11956335
This was like two days ago but I think he said something about them studying us.

I assume they do not use satellites because they are reluctant to hand over any technology, should we find one. Also how is that satellite going to show them what it sees without making so much noise that we would find it. I worked in coms in the military so I know how difficult this would be.

If they can use silent coms through all the noise we make then they could make satellites we could never find.

Spaceniggers tongues my anus

>>11956651
Angels and demons are more plausible explanations for UFOs. We evrn technically have more proof of them existing throughout our history.

>>11956704
UFOs are a more plausible explanation for angels demons fairies and gnomes.

See what I did there.

>>11956709
So both are possible than. Any speculation about UFOs being Alien visitors is as well grounded as the revelation we have received from the bible.

>>11956680
>You know Satan is a fag for using metallic crafts when he could have come down in all his unholy glory.
LOL.
The theory however works differently no """"real""" UFO is made out of metal these UFOs are more like plasma that interacts with itself and glows think like a ghost made out of neon light.

This plasma IS a Demon or Satan. This is how they look they don't have a body like humans.

Its like some plasma working wih itself in geometrical patterns like 3 lights rotating around itself = 1 demon.

Told you to think NGE.


That's what the /x/ model says.

>>11956691
>UFO Christians >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> christian fundamentalists.
You be surprised how often christian fundamentalists = UFO Christians.

> Doesn't make any sense.
insert passages about Satan being a angel of light, dig out bible passages that say angels are non-human weird shit like rings inside rings and spinning.

> Doesn't make any sense.
You did not live life if you did not see a christian who literally thinks literally every religions magic and its gods are real.
Here is the twist all of these gods are literally demons pretending to be gods! So Zeus is real and a demon, Poseidon is real and demon, Thor is real and a demon, Amon Ra is real and a demon.

You can get everything into your theology if you use this strategy and use the word nephilim enough.

Its like fucken god of war/age of mythology the theology.

>>11956709
>>11956704

Semi serous question what has a bigger chance of being real a ghost or bighoot?
Bigfoot is only a large ape, however we did look over most of the earths surface.

A ghost defied current understanding of physics however it is in a real that we did not test.

>>11956716
I consider it more plausible that whatever UFOs are, and whatever they contain is likely to have been witnessed in the past and recorded as best understood at the time.

Aliens seem the most logical explanation to many in this age. Maybe in the future we will understand these sightings as a rare interdimensional phenomena. Who really knows.

But as far as I am concerned, without evidence, the skeptics are blowing as much if not more air out of their asses in this thread.

>>11956385
You're not seeing the obvious possibility that ufos are manmade and that aliens are used to cover up this fact. Why?

>>11956517
Who are you talking to?

>>11956743
Was supposed to quote this guy >>11956329

>>11956741
Manmade by whom? It would require a hidden society far ahead of the rest of humanity. Where and how would you hide that?

>>11956726
bigfag.
>we looked
No we didn't. Forests are too large and often windy. They could live in caves too. No surprised they've recently found species once thought to be extinct.

>>11956754
I have considered the possibility that maybe humans in the past did reach a level of technology which allowed them to leave earth orbit and they have spent a few thousand years or so baking all manner of advanced technology. But why stop there?

Maybe intelligent insects evolved and left earth. Or intelligent reptiles.

>>11956762
Then figfag is the hide and seek master since we manage to see and find by accident all big apes in all other forests.

>>11956767
but we haven't explored caves. I'm no bigfag shill. I'm just considering the possibility of bigfag vs ghostoids.

>>11956446
You could say the same of FTL.
In fact, the impossibility of FTL is much more fundamental. At least AI can fill in what it thinks should be there, like when they remove people from images.

>>11956771
>I'm no bigfag shill
good.
>of bigfag vs ghostoids.
This question stumped me because i can not answer this.

NEW THREAD!
>>11956780
>>11956780
>>11956780
>>11956780

>>11956619
>>11956621
I think the "U" is for unexplained. Different context than "unidentified. Sorry to be pedantic.

There is no doubt us normies have not figured out all of physics (ex: the measurement problem, dark matter/energy, quantum gravity, etc.). Us normies are missing something. Black projects, etc. may have deeper insight not known to the public. That might explain the "terrestrial origin" possibility.

The simple fact is Fravor and many others highly trained in avionics have stated they have no idea how these things (the tic-tacs) move the way they do. No control surfaces or obvious means of propulsion and exhibit G-forces that would turn a human body into a puddle of goo.

Simply said, if these observations are true, somebody has a deeper understanding of physics than our best and brightest.

>>11956754
>It would require a hidden society far ahead of the rest of humanity.
Would it? How far? Today's mobile phones are only 10-20 years ahead of landlines.
>Where and how would you hide that?
At secret government bases... Where else?

>>11956944
Alright. Let me be in tandem with your post.

>>11956944
>Us normies are missing something. Black projects, etc.
Let me make this clear; there are indeed secret gov programs running right now. Nobody is denying it. Even UFO skeptics like me don't deny it. This is the reason why Area 51 is not open to the public. But the reason has less to do with the public and more to do with spies.


>>11956944
>The simple fact is Fravor and many others highly trained in avionics have stated they have no idea how these things (the tic-tacs) move the way they do. No control surfaces or obvious means of propulsion and exhibit G-forces that would turn a human body into a puddle of goo.
The possibility of lying to the public is not non zero. It's impossible to test the veracity of their claims.

>>11956944
>Simply said, if these observations are true, somebody has a deeper understanding of physics than our best and brightest.
No one has ever said that we have understood physics. Most brilliant physicist have stated the same. "No one truly understands QM" as stated by R. Feynman. But we do have a general rule-set in place for distinguishing the impossible from the possible. Which is why a lot of physicists prefer to discard aliens and look for mundane explanations, which believe it or not, has been true 95% of the time. Humans love attention. Which is why the love to claim to see UFOs, see aliens, visitations etc. It is these people who discourage scientist as well as a host of other factors. It would take less effort not investigating a fake encounter than actually taking the effort to corroborate evidence and witness testimonials.

>>11956781
>NEW THREAD!
OK. 1 thread was cute you keeping this alive forever is not this dose not belong on /sci/

>>11956944
>and exhibit G-forces that would turn a human body into a puddle of goo.
You mean like a drone or robot? You know something without a human inside?

Fun fact remote controlled vehicles existed since WW2.

>>11957041
Fair points.
Ignoring the obvious and outlandish crazy cries for attention and paying closer attention to seeming level-headed experts in their field...
And taking the leap that they speak truth about what they saw (keep in mind, some have come forward only very reluctantly - they don't want the related attention)...

Then, not only has somebody somewhere made a huge leap in theoretical physics, but has actually engineered something into existence based on those as-of-yet unknown (to us) theory/theories.

Here is a strange thought... what if somehow, in the case of Malestrom, Nimitz or Rendlesham, for example, the observers where subject to a mass-hallucination. Yes, that's a reach but it had just occurred to me.

I'm not a believer, not sure I want to believe. But if these observations are physical truth, then to OP's point, the scientific community should be in a frenzy over it.
This isn't just Nobel prize stuff. This changes our existence on a deep and fundamental level.

>>11957097
Are those vehicles shaped like a tic-tac, hypersonic and making instant 90 degree turns?

>>11957120
post video.
>Are those vehicles shaped like a tic-tac,
Like this?

>>11957135
No, not like that. Your pic has an obvious means of propulsion, could only barely get off the ground, choking on it's own turbulence.

Video? sure google Fravor on yt.

Done here. I took the bait. Sorry /sci/

>>11957110
>And taking the leap that they speak truth about what they saw (keep in mind, some have come forward only very reluctantly - they don't want the related attention)...
Let me make this clear beforehand. It's impossible to truly know whether a human is being veracious. There's no way to read a person's mind and discover his or her beliefs. We can only speculate and draw observations.

>>11957110
>Then, not only has somebody somewhere made a huge leap in theoretical physics, but has actually engineered something into existence based on those as-of-yet unknown (to us) theory/theories.
Sure enough. But my point
>>11957041
>But we do have a general rule-set in place for distinguishing the impossible from the possible
holds true.

>>11957158
>No, not like that.
then post video or picture or draw in MS paint or something.

>Your pic has an obvious means of propulsion,
It fucken levitated you fag!
>Video? sure google Fravor on yt.
You do the work of pasting it in this thread I'm not searching for you on YT.

>>11950276
??? source???