/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11829482
When large employers stop having blanket "Must have a four year degree" requirements, the whole thing will fall apart.

In "socialist" europe they are free.

>>11829482
Because they can be, they're gatekeepers to your future career and effectively your entire life so their "absolute ultimate 100% objective true market value" is a substantial chunk of what you'll make.

>>11829942
1: No European country is socialist.
2: Nothing is free.

>>11829942
Can a 58 year old plumber in Europe suddenly decide he wants a neurobiology degree and get admitted to free university?

>>11829987
Pretty much.
Would be useless and probably would fail, but I'm not aware of any age limit in my evil socialist country, but any eu country has its own criteria.

The government doesn't do shit because it's run by the (((same people))) as universities.

>>11830057
Cope.

>>11829987
If he went to a school that qualifies him to study in Germany he could. Currently I believe that half the young adult population can study. Otherwise he would have to get more advanced in his field and go to a certain type of school to study something related.
Fees are about 250€/semester

>>11829956
It is free faggot
you cock gobbling faggots need to off yourselves, you ruined America

>>11829987
If he’s qualified yeah, dum dum

>>11830248
America is the greatest country in the world.

>>11830251
Qualified how? Be specific.

>>11830065
So "free" school is only free to half of the population. The other half can go get fucked?

>>11829956
>I’d rather subsidize the pharma and tech conpanies with my tax funded university research and pay 500k for basic appendectomy than invest in the people of my country and their development/education

mutts are beyond help kek

>>11830266
250€ a semester is closer to free than it is to even the price of a community college in the US

>>11829948
>what you’ll make
I hadn’t even earned anything at the time.. this whole thing is a massive scam if I’ve ever seen one

t. coping zoomer who coasted through with a 2.9

>>11830248
Maybe if you stopped importing people to compete with you, you would have a job and possibly enough cohesion to get the country to support free education.

>>11830248
Nothing is free but the air you breath, berniebro.

Govt just takes money from everyone to pay for university for some.

in Europe you pay 0$ for college and you get government allowances and loans so that you don't need to work and study at the same time (those are enough for bare minimum living but still helpful) + some other benefits and discounts on internet and transportation.
>inb4 taxes
even after taxes you'd be earning the same or more than an American in almost all jobs with few exceptions like doctors

>>11830257
cringe

>>11830266
>american logic
kek

>>11830306
t. faggot who likes sucking kike balls

>>11829482
currently paying $20k a year to study on my own. fk

>>11830814
Exactly, its all fucked, the retard professors run this shit like it’s highschool

>>11829987
>>11830251
Is there no community college in europe?

>>11830248
>It is free faggot
What are taxes anyway?

>>11829482
Ostensibly the USA has better universities than the rest of the world, so while we pay for it, we get a better education. In my experience, that's probably not true in most instances (granted, I'm not going to Harvard, so your mileage may vary). I've had a few good professors that I genuinely learned a lot from, but with other classes, I basically taught myself entirely from the textbook. Essentially, I paid for nothing but the incentive to get shit done on time so I could pass the class and not waste the money I paid.

>>11830804
You refused to answer the question and went with an ad hominem attack instead. Must have struck a nerve about how certain countries lock out your life opportunities at a young age.

>>11831150
>it's okay for the education system to be completely fucked in the US simply because the schools are located here

>>11830266
250€ it is with paid public transport normally. Well if you're too stupid and without incentive, you wouldn't make it at a German University. So absolutely, half the popoulation can, and should be fucked

>>11830879
What do you mean by that? I've never even heard "college" outside of US context. Just describe the criteria of education you're interested in

>>11830262
As said before, having gone to a certain type of school and depending on the courses havingg graduated above a certain grade.(for medicine in Ger you'd have to have an A as average). In some other countries universities do tests like in Austria, other than that the only criteria is that you'd have to pay around 300-500€ a year.

>>11829509
cheaper for employers to jut demand years of education rather than a year of on the job training or learning

>>11829482
>why isn't the government cracking down on the biggest scam
Cause they're in on it. Lobbyist groups control everyone they influenced you to vote for. There's so much godamn money that not only are you guaranteed a loan for, but the government and your parents pay for it so they need twice as much now cause you have not 1 but 2 helpers, and you're legally never off the hook for paying it back. Remember to get your degrees! Banking people are just honest money lenders with your best intentions at heart and in no way are pals with your senator.

Oh fuck, and has any one had a professor that tried using an old textbook so you guys could save money buying a used one instead of a brand new one? We had to buy a 2nd textbook less than a week in after the admins found out. Barnes & Noble, the government sanctioned textbook monopoly, made some extra chump change. Nothing to look into here!

>>11829987
At least in Finland yes if he has the required previous education. To get into university you need to have passed your matriculation exam which is a set of nationwide tests every spring and fall. To be able to take those exams you'll need to complete three years of upper secondary school (basically high school). To go to upper secondary school you need to have fully completed basic education so the first 9 grades which is something pretty much every normal person has done since technically it's a law here that every child has to do that.

A plumber probably went to a vocational school (which is the other common alternative after basic ed.) after basic education which means he would have to do those three years in "high school", pass the tests and then apply by taking entrance exams. If they pass and get in it's about 100€ per year for the university sign up fee.

>>11831271
A year? At my company we typically lose money on new college grads for two years before they start earning their pay. And that isn't a slight on their education, it's a reflection of how complex the work is.

If we trained from scratch, we'd have to lock new hired into a long term contract and even then we'd lose out because you can't really tell how a high school graduate will handle engineering. And because of the contract, new hires would have to work for about a decade before they could take their skills somewhere else, with little or no formal documentation of those skills.

>>11829482
I don't know if you went to a bad school or if you're just a fuckwit. I attended three universities (including grad schools) and while I had a few bad profs most were good and helpful and added a lot beyond the textbooks. And while there are predatory schools (mostly for profit) "churning our students" and stupid programs that exist solely because of student demand, most universities want to see their students succeed.

And yes, most US universities are non-profit and therefore exempt from taxes. That's the system.

It will be broken down and rebuilt when someone has a better idea, and I haven't seen one yet.

The increase in the cost of education is typically attributed to ballooning administrative costs. I think it has more to do with the fact that American universities are just as much sellers of environments for young adult socialization (I.e., the college experience) as they are educational institutions.

>>11831312
I don’t know if it’s that easy. The most powerful institutions exist to from the elite of our society. It’ll take a lot more than someone having a better idea to bring down this system.

>>11831252
Say if I was a horrible high school student, community college serves as a "2nd chance" option to improve your grades then transfer to university. There is no entry requirements to go to community, literally anyone can attend and earn credit to transfer to a real university.

>>11830266
How the fuck are americans this fucking stupid? Did all that copium rot their brain?

>>11831321
Are Americans so fucking cucked that they allow their education system to be shit on in the name of aesthetic campuses & thicker pockets for soulless, rich boomers that don't even do the goddamn teaching?

>>11831326
Yeah, there will be inertia and resistance from several sources, but if you don't have a genuinely better way, you won't even get started.

Forget for a moment the multitude of jobs that require or expect a degree without needing the skills, and imagine you are an employer who genuinely needs someone with advanced skills beyond high school. What is the alternative besides university?

Train them yourself? You need people NOW, not 5 years from now. You want your employees to be producing, not training others. And the cost is immense, especially considering that you don't really know if they'll be any good or if they'll leave the second training is done. This is what the military does and it is HUGELY expensive and leaves them lacking in a lot of areas. And they don't have to worry about profitability and outside of actual combat, training is their main activity.

Self study? That works for a very, very few, and to be honest, you probably don't want to hire them. Why? Because validating their skills will take a long time, you have no justification for hiring them that you can prove to a third party, and chances are that if they are that driven they'll be gone as soon as possible to start their own company. It's also shit for the employee, btw.

Come up with a better system, THEN worry about how to implement it.

>>11831368
Yes. How are they going to attract prospective students without massive sports complexes, party mansions, and other such frivolities.

>>11831392
It should also said that coaches at public universities are often the highest public employee in their respective states. The university system in America is a bloated mess.
>>11831384
I don’t want to see the system destroyed. I just want to eliminate the hierarchy’s of schools and eliminate the excesses they’ve accrued.

>>11829482
it will be destroyed when they no longer have a strangle hold on the HR of corporations.

>>11831341
In Finland this system or equivalent is called open university. It's aimed mostly at "mature people" i.e. people over the age of a typical university students who want to expand their knowledge of something or learn a new trade. It's open to everyone and instead of a single sign up fee after being admitted, you pay some amount for each credit as you go. It's more expensive and there are less courses but it's less structured and easier to work into your free time while you work or something. And while I say expensive it's still cheap compared to American alternatives. Average 1st year student in a regular university does 60 credits worth of studies in a year for a Bsc and in the University of Helsinki open university costs 15€ per credit so like 900€ compared to the 100 something euro sign up fee.

Also as far as I understand (basically based on the TV show Community) in America community colleges are different entities from "regular" universities that are considered as jokes compared to the real things but that's not necessarily the case here since the open university courses are provided by "regular" universities. It's just that not all courses are provided in the open format so you can't for example just pay and take all the med school courses and skip the entrance exams and other procedures and then become a doctor.

Also you don't get a degree from an open university alone. You can attach those credits to your degree if you get into a "regular" university. It's basically for people who want to plug up holes in their knowledge, want to expand their knowledge in a field they're already in or students trying to catch up in their studies during the summer.

>>11831481
>Also as far as I understand (basically based on the TV show Community) in America community colleges are different entities from "regular" universities that are considered as jokes compared to the real things
That doesn’t even begin to describe. American universities have a hierarchy of status, and social status gained by going to the top schools is life changing. If you go to an Ivy League school, you more or less live in a different world than someone who attended a public school.

>>11831224
>I didn't make it past the first sentence.
It's either that or you have difficulty with reading comprehension.

>>11831384
>Train them yourself? You need people NOW, not 5 years from now.
What about certifications or trade schools? In my experience, having a degree doesn't preclude new employees from requiring training. The majority of degrees aren't about teaching a person how to do a job, that comes later.

>>11831150
>Ostensibly the USA has better universities than the rest of the world

In terms of academic output only. Producing decent students though? And even then the vast majority of the good students who are making it through American uni are foreign e.g. Asian, Indian etc. certainly not Black american or White american.

>>11829509
maybe if universities stopped the exploitation of people this coulda been nipped in the bud

>>11830903
something you can pay after you’ve studied for free without worrying about student loans and putting food on the table

>>11831150
Most of those meme “best universities” rankings are done by mostly American and British companies/websites so it’s no wonder that US/UK universities come on top.. anglos have zero shame when it comes to self praise and self flagellation

I’d say hard sciences are superior in Germany and Eastern Europe

>>11831150
shitting out papers doesn’t make any institution great, plus 60% of American peer reviewed paper are absolutely gutter trash and can’t be reproduced

So essentially mutts just push thousands of papers through their institutes and then call themselves “da best” based on that arbitrary metric kek

>>11831271
Most college/uni grads have to be trained on the job anyway. It’s not like university boomer profs actually put any effort into their students or prepare them for anything

>>11831312
Retard I went to some of the unis as well, it’s utter shit, the marketing exceeds the worth of these shithole institutions

Look at their billion dollar endowments

>>11831321
>administrative cost
isn’t that just a bunch of fat mba faggots chugging 2 million a year and wasting money on shit? What exactly are they “administering”? And the infrastructure and teaching style has been more or less the same since the last 60 years or so..

>>11831392
Not to mention these meme universities charge students for everything from toilet paper to basic lunch (a slice of pizza and a coke) because apparently they are too broke for that or even decent classes

But they have all the money in the world to build new 10,000 seat stadiums and shit every 5 years.. fucking faggots all of them

>>11831368
University football teams in America get more money allocated to them than professors or science labs kek

>>11829482
Expensive unis only admit rich kids from powerful families
You go there to network with them

>>11829482
1) They know you have loan money available to "afford" the ridiculous price
2) They know companies rely on their meme degrees for hiring

>Why isn’t the government cracking down on the biggest scam of the last 60 years?
The government created the problem by using taxpayer dollars to subsidize the education lenders so that they would lend to poor people.
The idea was sold as making college education "affordable" for poor people because affordability was what was limiting the obtainability.
It did make a college education more obtainable but it made it less affordable.
The solution would be to remove the loan subsidization which would make lenders give out less money due to more risk exposure which would make colleges have to lower their prices due to decreased demand.
This will never happen because half of all voters have an IQ below 100 and would gravitate towards the "less money = bad" line of reasoning.

>>11831412
What do you mean by "hierarchy of schools"?

And I think trimming excess is a good idea, but I think you would be surprised how unpopular any such attempt would be - everyone wants trimming to happen, but no one wants their own stuff trimmed. Just look at the federal budget as an example.

>>11829987
Americans can’t cope with this. Don’t trigger them. They can’t even handle freshman-year-admits who are dropouts at another school.

>>11832281
A certification that is 100% test is not a very reliable demonstrator of knowledge. Test results are good, but a demonstrated pattern of repeated testing success is better.

And what is a trade school except a college that teaches a shallow subject without anything additional? You could trim down the extent of what is taught in college, but really you'd just be lowering the quality of graduates.

>>11834069
Well, how did that work out for you? You're pissed because they market themselves like literally every other corporation and organization on the planet? You're pissed because they do a lot of it? You're pissed because they're successful at doing it, as indicated by their students and endowments?

For a supposed college grad you're awful quick to assume you know better than the people doing it despite not having seemingly performed any real study of the issue.

Did you know that in the United States, every grade you’ve ever had and every school you’ve ever attended is tracked through the National Student Clearinghouse?

So you can’t fail, drop out and then 5 years later show up at a new school and do well and graduate.

You literally cannot do that. You are supposed to go through the trouble of re-taking the old classes, transfer, etc.

>>11829482
professors have expensive tastes

>>11834664
That’s...not really how it works anon. When you apply to a school they have you send your transcripts in directly from the institutions you attended. If you don’t mention you attended a school, they won’t fact check - although, if you mention you studied somewhere they will require a transcript.

So, no, if you’ve already been to college they’re not gonna treat you the same as if you hadn’t, unless you really want them to; if you want any credit for the courses you’ve taken in the past you have to deal with the consequences of the courses you’ve failed. You don’t get something for nothing, you can’t get credit for the work you did without also having the fact considered that you failed and/or dropped out.

You can totally fail out of one school, then 5 years later, enroll in a community college, do well, and get into a university based on those grades...you’re “required” to report your grades from everywhere you attended but they have no way to check. You’re gonna have to pay for it out of pocket though because if you want the government to help pay for your education you can’t just ignore the fact that you treated it like a joke and wasted thousands of dollars of taxpayer money your first time around.

>>11829482
The government CAUSED this by ensuring that student loans are not dismissed by bankruptcy. Every time you vote for a Democrat, or a Republican too spineless to stand up for cheap education, you support this scam.

>>11829482
>Why are universities and colleges so expensive?
They aren't. They're free unless you live in a terrible country.
>inb4 triggered third worlders "nothing is free WAAAAAH"
Yes, it is. Everybody gets taxed, but some countries spend that money making wars that kill literally who's on the other side of the world, while civilized countries spend it on things that benefit the people. Free stuff does exist and every good country has plenty of it.

>>11831150
>Ostensibly the USA has better universities than the rest of the world
>I basically taught myself entirely from the textbook.
This is what Americans think a good education is

>>11836315
You're generally correct. The way it was designed to work is that when you send a school your transcript, that transcript shows what other schools you've sent your transcript to. That gives the school you're trying to get into a clue that you may have attended other schools and have records there. In my experience they really don't care. I have unclaimed credits from a couple of community colleges in California. When I transferred from the local branch campus of my state university to the main campus, they should have seen on my branch campus transcript that I had my transcript sent to two community colleges in California. Main campus never asked about those schools. I could have taken and failed a dozen classes at the community college and still earned summa cum laude at main campus.

Universities are businesses whose primary purposes is to churn out graduates for profit, and whose secondary function is daycare for late teen / 20 somethings. Extending the minimum expected education (for our parents a high school diploma was enough to land a decent career; now a bachelors degree is the absolute minimum for "middle class" work) is beneficial to society at large because it keeps unemployment stats as low as possible. Hence why after a needlessly long education lasting from shortly after birth to ~22, graduates can still be dumb as fuck, and this applies to all areas of study, science/maths included.

>>11836344
If loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy, almost everyone would use that as a way to get rid of their loans which in turn would quickly bankrupt the system. Then no one would be able to get student loans. It would be the Millennial generation pulling up the drawbridge and giving the finger to all future generations while laughing "I got mine, don't care what happens to you!"

>>11836420
>free
>taxed
Do you know what either of those words mean? Looks like your "free" education was worth what you paid of it.

>>11829482
I paid off all my student loans in a couple months with my first job after graduating. You should be networking at school events like hackathons and pursuing high quality internships that your school offers to its students instead of going to class and studying all day. It's like applying to college, tons of people with perfect GPAs will be applying to Ivies or six-figure new grad jobs, you need to set yourself apart with extracurriculars or personal projects and experience. The degree is just one of many boxes to check off for most job applications.

>>11829987
In Spain you have to pass the 25 years old university access test, or if you don't have it you can do the 45 years old university access test that has whats basically a written language test and an interview to check that you are going to study and do well enough despite being so old(and even so their curriculum is different, I would say, more accesible).

After that, he has to do a masters and then a Phd. In total, and optimal conditions it would require: 4+1+5 years=9 years total so he will probably be well in his sixties when he finishes. So, it's not impossible just very hard for a 58 years old plumber and probably no one would take him seriusly unless he does something worthwhile. But yes, it is possible, and sometimes 45 years olds do really get 4 year STEM degrees, but I don't know any example of any of them going into a PhD in such a late age.

>>11836498
Internships shouldn't be a thing in the first place. Academia also was never supposed to be the place to socialize for jobs.

>>11831481
This is basically true but thinking they were clown colleges was based on some prejudices from the 1990s and stuff, now people understand the credits are basically the same and its stupid to do first 2 years at actual university.

Although, this has ironically made universities strangely elitist again, if you CAN afford the first 2 years, you are super rich and probably joining the best fraternity/sorority which connects you to the best people. Its creating a new aristocracy that is going unnoticed but will probably be a huge problem in 20 years.

>>11831150
>Essentially, I paid for nothing but the incentive to get shit done on time so I could pass the class and not waste the money I paid.

mutts can’t be this retarded can they?

>>11836295
Professors aren’t even paid much, most of the mutt money goes to deans and new stadiums, parks and advertisement campaign for the university and their shareholders

The entire set up is just boomers leeching off of zoomers till the day they end up in a grave

>>11836491
mutts pay taxes for everything too.. yet they don’t get shit for it, because bombing some goatfucker in afganistan is more important than giving people of your own country good education and healthcare.. no wonder mutts are fat, retarded religious freaks

>>11836531
Sorry anon but you couldn’t be more wrong - going to CC may save money but it virtually ensures you will never do anything of value.

Universities aren’t about the quality of instruction, which really varies, there are incompetent CC profs and any class at a CC is gonna be dumbed down with massive grade inflation but if you’re motivated you can learn regardless of the teacher and how much of a joke the grades are. And, in many cases uni instructors are researchers doing the bare minimum teaching requirements for their job, or grad students with barely intelligible English, while CC professors’ main job is to teach and some are really motivated to do a good job.

The point of universities is networking, anon. What you know and how well you know it matters a lot less than who you can convince of your knowledge. The reason attending a university is essential for any STEM subject is to get several years of research experience on very low levels as an undergrad, so in grad school they know you can handle starting out on actual meaningful research.

2 years at CC means you have 4 semesters and 1 summer to do research. Typically your first research project is baby stuff building basic lab skills. So you have 0 summers to work on meaningful research, or at most 3 semesters.

Now, do you think that’ll get you into a competitive grad program over a student with 5-6 semesters and 2 summers of research?

It’s even worse with business- to be considered for a top tier corporate job in anything business related, you need an internship in the field, to get a specialized internship you need to have done a previous respectable internship and if you’ve spent your first 2 years at CC you’d only have 1 summer to do 2 internships. Lol.
Engineering is similar though you might get an internship with great grades + recommendations as a third year without the previous experiment.

Basically, going to CC will permanently doom you to a beta income level

>>11836498
>paid off my loan within months
No you didn’t lying faggot

also why did you pay 200k and waste 4+ years of your youth to do something you could’ve done at a job fair?

>>11836575
actually CC credits can be transferred to university. My dad was telling about a new trainee they hired at his banking firm who did 2 years at college, did extremely well and then transferred all his credits to a local university, essentially halving his student loans and getting a good degree in the process.

The elitist morons crying about colleges are retarded, it’s a good way to save money

>>11836577
>what's a sign-on bonus
>implying anyone pays anywhere close to 200k
>implying you'd ever be invited to a job fair of worth outside of a university
Lol.

>>11836589
>My dad was telling about a new trainee they hired at his banking firm who did 2 years at college, did extremely well and then transferred all his credits to a local university
And my dad works at Nintendo and says Halo is gonna be in the next super smash bro’s

If you’re a midwit, sure CC is a great route, saves you money and you would’ve wasted the time sitting in your room all day shitposting on 4chan anyway.

But the sequence for a research scientist is supposed to go like this:
>1st year take gen Ed’s and the basic intro sequences (calc, gen chem, physics etc), you can take classes study abroad or just get a job in summer
>2nd year wrap up gen Ed’s and take required core classes for major, e.g. organic chem or real analysis, maybe start a research project as a lab bitch
>find a research project to work on in a very low level over summer, maybe take classes if on campus
>3rd year really get into specialized classes for your major, hopefully do some part time research work during the year
>3rd summer get involved with an actual research project at a higher level than lab bitch bc you’ve already proved yourself and worked your way up
>4th year take graduate level classes and contribute to meaningful research projects while studying and hopefully completing your own honors thesis
>apply to grad school having a proven understanding of the lower level classes and demonstrated research abilities

Now tell me anon, if you spent the first 2 years at CC taking women’s studies and had no research experience except at the bottom lab bitch level in your third summer do you think you’re gonna get selected for the grad program? Because the other guy applying for it did all that stuff and still has better grades than you.

And, obviously you can skip the internships part if you’re a business major and your daddy can get a job for you; it’d be foolish not to if you find yourself in that situation.

>>11836639
>200k
>Study abroad first year
I'd like to point you towards the second paragraph of >>11836531

>>11829482
They're expensive ever since the government started giving out loans. Higher learning could then just charge any price they wanted because everyone now relies on the government to give them loans.

>>11836658
Ok anon, apply for a competitive PhD program with 2 years of CC classes and 1 Mickey Mouse research project and see if you get in, good luck

>>11836666
I'm in Canada, we have a functioning uni system, I'll be fine rich person who has no idea how the average persons life works in the slightest. Just remember, most people don't have >[a] daddy [who] can get a job for you

>>11829942
American university is free if you aren't a brainlet.
Think of American tuition as a brainlet tax.
Student debt is just a form of eugenics to prevent brainlets from having too many kids.

>>11836676
Okay foreigner who doesn’t really know what a CC is and still thinks it’s a good idea for others

>>11836686
>Student debt is just a form of eugenics to prevent brainlets from having too many kids.
every single minority is outbreeding you. white women don't have white kids

>>11830327
>hold my perri-air

>>11836696
White people are the brainlets I was referring to.

>>11836700
t. brainlet shitskin

>>11836705
Stay mad, bitch.

>>11836686
This would be true if scholarships and grants weren't racist.

>>11836689
Ok person from wealth who doesn't understand the failings of American society

>>11836754
Poorfag here. Why does everyone want to come here if it sucks so much? And why does everyone who already lives here always say "I'm leaving if X happens," and then X happens, and they don't leave? It's fascinating.

>>11836771
That's where you're wrong. No one wants to go there except super rich asians and indians escaping worse conditions. I'm staying up north

>>11836754
Sadly it’s you that doesn’t understand if you think CC is a shortcut to be successful without debt, anon

>go to university as a freshman, go $50k in debt instead of $20k, graduate with years of research experience and graduate coursework to compete for admission to a PhD program
>go to CC, get a year behind your peers in research experience that you can literally never make up (unless you spend an extra year accruing debt), graduate without meaningful research experience and need to go to a shit tier PhD program or spend another year racking up debt for a masters

The second might be a better option if you’re a midwit just looking for a mid tier job to pay the bills but if you want to do research it irreparably fucks your education and you have no choice but to take on debt to catch up - then again if you’re smart enough to do research you can probably get a tuition scholarship for university and the whole CC idea is moot.

>>11836785
I'm not saying that 4 years at uni isn't better than 2+2, but
a) people can succeed under the 2+2 system
b) It's really only a path designed for very rich people
c) Your system is wack and broken
Keep spending millions on stadiums loser

>>11836783
That's cool for you and all, but literally everyone who isn't already rich in their own country—be it the N/S Americas, Asia, Africa, etc.—and who wants a better life for themselves and their children, wants to come here. I'm wondering how you explain, if not for the fact that we have the best system in the world for socioeconomic mobility.

>>11836785
Bullshit.
You could count on one hand the number of freshman who are doing research at any given academic program at any given university.

>>11836802
>we have the best system in the world for socioeconomic mobility.
HAHAHAHAH HOLY SHIT KEK THAT's THE FUNNIEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD

>>11836794
>It's really only a path designed for very rich people
Here’s the thing though anon,

In pretty much every developed society, universities are only for the very most talented of scholars, and for rich people.
This idea that “a university education should be available for anyone who wants one”, is a postmodernist fiction at odds with the economic limits of scarcity in our reality; it’s largely what has led to the watering down and devaluation of university degrees worldwide, a trend that’s only been prevented at the top tier of schools that are inaccessible to the vast majority of applicants.

Universities are still readily accessible for scholars - for what it’s worth, I went to a top tier public school (below the elite private school level), has the first 120 hours of tuition paid for + received $700-900 a semester in scholarship money, and had to pay about $800 a semester for my last year (did like 150 credits lol).

It’s only poorfags of moderate intelligence that are priced out of education - and, maybe it’s not the best method but we need something to keep low talent, low income students from wasting scarce educational resources.

There’s never been a society where moderately intelligent poorfags get a full value university degree for free: college is supposed to be for actual scholars, and for preparing rich kids to take their place in the ruling class. Letting in poor kids who aren’t smart enough to do research only degrades the value.

Also...my Alma mater earned $156M from the football program last year. So, yeah, that stadium was a good investment and it’d be stupid not to build it because you’d rather spend the funds directly on education when the stadium will give you a positive return and more net funding long term.

>>11836815
Lmao. I’d love to point out your white privilege, but unfortunately it has nothing to do with your race, just your bubble life. You’re just a pampered idiot.

>>11836842
>There’s never been a society where moderately intelligent poorfags get a full value university degree for free
When did I say that?
for preparing rich kids to take their place in the ruling class.
>[college is] for preparing rich kids to take their place in the ruling class.
Holy shit opinion discarded
>Letting in poor kids who aren’t smart enough to do research only degrades the value.
People who do research are such an incredibly small minority of students.

So uni is for the aristocrats and best poor people. What a great system

>>11836854
What are you even talking about? White people have economic mobility, but black people definitely don't. If you are black in America and you are in the bottom 2 quintiles, there is a 75% you'll stay there, and a 68% chance you'll move there from the middle quintile. Compare that to 55% and 30% respectively for white people. America has horrid economic mobility for the lower classes, particularly for black people

>>11836842
For such a highly educated galaxy brain you are putting forward a really facile argument.
It's readily apparent that greater access to education is simply a democratic ideal and much of the system is designed to facilitate that.
So no, average students aren't being "priced out" of higher education since they can easily get loans.
The high costs aren't to keep people out of education, it's to siphon off money to expand the university's prestige through various academic, architectural, and athletic projects, which are in turn, intended to attract even more students.
It's simply a closed circle of capitalistic growth.
Larping like it's the 1400s and the university is some kind of sequestered club of intellectual sanctity is fuckin laughable.
Additionally one could easily argue that we have a need for more education, not less, given that society trends towards increasing complexity.

Of course if we were to take your attitude seriously, we could really roll up our sleeves and do away with mandated K-12 public education, that would definitely put a dent in the amount of eligible students and be more in line with your thinking, not sure if you have reached that level of fedora-tipping yet though.

>>11836842
>>11836842
This Anon is completely right. In my shithole (Brazil) we kinda managed to have decent universities in early 00's (USP was solidly in top 200 for instance, which is a feat for a third world country). Amongst other shit-tier political decisions, the administrative staff decided to implement ridiculous affirmative actions which got gradually more aggressive (In my entrance year iirc 40% of new students in engineering got by affirmative action fucking lmao). Basically, the very few intellectual islands(3 universities produce like 90% of all relevant domestic research) in this shithole got absolutely flooded by inapt people, who either don't give a fuck about producing science (I mean, it is only fair if you are poor you want to get a well paying job asap) or are woefully prepared to conduct research, like not even knowing basic pre-calculus stuff. Not only that, but indifference about bringing capital to the university, be it through industry partnerships or hosting events, has made the university indebted as fuck, further deteriorating research output

>>11836863
>People who do research are such an incredibly small minority of students.
Exactly anon.

Many of the majority of students who aren’t doing anything related to research do not need higher education. Some would be better off with 1-2 years of streamlined technical education, others could literally walk into job training out of high school and not be any worse off.

Why should we pay for them to access university resources for 4 years, have experienced researchers and professionals teach their classes, and allow them to spend all that time studying rather than working if it isn’t necessary for their job or life?

In theory a college education is supposed to offer a sense of understanding and perspective of the world but with how watered down and political gen Ed’s have become that’s not really the case. Their time and money are being wasted, the professors’ time is being wasted, and for what? A false sense of social equity, so we can pretend if a poor black kid works hard and gets into the same university as a rich white kid he has the same opportunity to succeed?

In America obviously there is a huge cultural problem with kids being pressured to make this extremely financially wasteful decision but at least they have to pay for it themselves instead of the burden being on society. The only ones who admittedly bear an extra burden are poor talented students who may have partial scholarships but need to go into debt to focus on their studies, and that cost is paid by higher wages and lower taxes when they graduate.

Rich kids need the few years to practice being an adult before settling into their upper class jobs, they can pay for it themselves. The average poorfag doesn’t need that opportunity, and it’s essentially what they’re paying for with the college experience.

>>11836902
>job training
Doesn't exist anymore, uni degrees are required for most entry level work
>Why should we pay for them to access university resources for 4 years, have experienced researchers and professionals teach their classes, and allow them to spend all that time studying rather than working if it isn’t necessary for their job or life?
Improving the people in society isn't worthwhile I guess
>In theory a college education is supposed to offer a sense of understanding and perspective of the world but with how watered down and political gen Ed’s have become that’s not really the case.
factually incorrect
> A false sense of social equity, so we can pretend if a poor black kid works hard and gets into the same university as a rich white kid he has the same opportunity to succeed?
Woah now, bringing race into it? Interesting...
>that cost is paid by higher wages and lower taxes when they graduate.
Tell that to straight up everyone who went to uni in America and still has debt (i.e. anyone not in the aristocracy)
>Rich kids need the few years to practice being an adult before settling into their upper class jobs
What a shitty person you are. "Me and my friends should get all the top jobs while those POOR black kids can be plumbers working themselves to death for the rest of their lives while I have my 3 lambos"

>>11836871
Listen man, I'd love to be in your bubble of privilege. But at the same time, I'm glad I'm not a racist idiot like you are. People who think like you and /pol/ are pretty much the dumbest, luckiest, most privileged people in the world.

Meanwhile, literally everything I've said about systematic global socioeconomic mobility is true. Everyone who isn't already rich and politically connected wants to come here to maximize their talent. And they do. No matter how much racist garbage you try to spew into this thread.

>>11836936
>Doesn't exist anymore, uni degrees are required for most entry level work
Presumably he wants his "1-2 years of streamlined technical education" to serve this purpose. Somehow in his mind he thinks setting up an entire parallel education system is more cost efficient, lol.

>>11836952
How exactly is he a "racist idiot?"
He gave you easily verifiable statistics and you resorted to name-calling.
Ironically, people like you are the reason places like /pol/ exist.

>>11834645
>What do you mean by "hierarchy of schools"?
Universities in America have somewhat rigid hierarchy that determines your social standing after graduation. Someone who attended an elite school (Ivy League, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, etc.) will generally be considered better in any social environment than someone who attended a state school. Someone with an associates degree from a community college is looked down upon in the same way as someone who never sought out higher education. This kind of elitism is rampant among American posters on this very board.
You are absolutely right about the idea of making cuts being unpopular. the "college experience" is something a lot of Americans hold dear even though it is a distraction at its best and despicable at its worse.

>>11836970
Unironically, you and him should go to /pol/ and bro hug it out with all the other racist idiots living in your bubble of privilege.

Then you can have your silk pillow fights with each other about your own pet statistics (as if Mark Twain didn't already debunk that brand of stupidity over a century ago) and then have whatever sort of sick make up sex that gets privileged racists like you off.

And in the real world, everyone else who doesn't live in a bubble of privilege rolls their eyes at you and keeps lining up to come here.

>>11836936
>Improving the people in society isn't worthwhile I guess
Is it your honest belief that keeping kids in school for 4 years making them take a bunch of classes in critical theory that they will never use and 1 year of coursework they need is improving them?

When you remove the challenge and work requirement and lower the bar so more people can pass, you strip away the value of the experience for everyone. And that’s the necessary result of pursuing some nonsensical ideal like “everyone who wants one should have access to a university education”.

> Tell that to straight up everyone who went to uni in America and still has debt
Tell that to this anon >>>>11836498

I’m not sure why you think I’m rich, I’m quite middle class and paid for my education via scholarships, this is an option for most talented students here. I’m simply a realist, that if you’re not studying something requiring genuine scholarship and are just looking for a middle class job, a full university education is a waste of resources and you certainly shouldn’t be entitled to it for free. If someone can afford the expense it has some value but if it’s paid for with debt or public funding it’s only worthwhile for those who will actually use their education.

>>11836959
Except there’s already a technical education system with technical schools and community colleges. That’s what CC is for- kids who need a 1 or 2 year certification for nursing or a mechanic or technician or IT job, not serious students who are motivated to do research.

I’m all for making college tuition free - but first we have to solve the cultural problem and filter out the many students who really shouldn’t be in college to an alternate education program.

>>11829987
Yes, I studied cs with an old geezer. He smelled like a wet dog and always wore the same clothes.
He also always came way too early and then rambled about the clock being wrong by 30 seconds. We used to call him registration number one.

>>11837004
>Is it your honest belief that keeping kids in school for 4 years making them take a bunch of classes in critical theory that they will never use and 1 year of coursework they need is improving them?
pic related

>I’m not sure why you think I’m rich
I'm assuming (because of the shot-reverse shot-esque convo) that you're >>11836639, who said that everyone in uni who wants to do research should study abroad ($$ but useful) or if you're in business either a)do an internship (which shouldn't be thing, interns should get paid) or just get your big daddy businessman to get you a job

>>11829482
Easy access to student loans means universities can continually up their prices and people will just borrow more. College students have proven they don't have the intelligence to run the numbers and determine whether repaying it is possible or practical, so they don't care. On the flip side, the abundance of student loans has allowed many people to attend college who otherwise wouldn't. My personal compromise is to allow student loan debt to be discharged in bankruptcy, and make the university that accepted the money liable if that happens.

>>11836952
poorfag/working class brit here, the US is generally viewed by non-rich euro's as a giant insane prison megaslum; basically a financialized hellscape like the UK only much larger and higher chance of being shot

>>11837121
>Easy access to student loans means universities can continually up their prices and people will just borrow more.
Now where has reckless loaning caused problems before....

>>11837037
Have fun paying twice as much as me in taxes so poor kids can sign up for 4 years of classes about how western civilization is evil anon.

The study abroad reference was only that it doesn’t really matter what you do your first summer, if you want you can study abroad or just work or take classes, no big deal. If you’re already borrowing 50k for college what’s another 5k for a legitimately awesome experience? I never studied abroad but my friends who did, all had a positive experience.

Btw, those high-tier internships that are required for a corporate job typically pay like $4-5k a month. Lower tier business internships typically pay like $12-15 an hour and engineering internships pay reasonable wages. It’s specifically for over saturated shit like journalism that interns are unpaid; it’s just supply and demand, there are more people who want to work in the industry than there are career opportunities.

If you want a successful career a university will give you access to that - if you’re smart, and willing to work hard. If not, maybe it’ll help you get a better job but it’s better for both you and for society to study at a CC and not waste the resources. Unless you’re wealthy enough to pay for it with no debt. Going to CC is signing up for the low effort, low reward route

>>11829482
>Why are universities and colleges so expensive?
because you're an American and they milk their people (land of the free)

>>11837163
Universities are indispensable to getting a job. It's just the way that it is. However, there are many (better) ways of self-improving that collectively enhance your status.

>>11829956
>2: Nothing is free.

When I went to university in the 70s it wasn't just free I got paid to go - a student grant. (And it wasn't even a socialist government).

Then the government decided they wanted 50% of all 18 yo to go to university, so they dropped the grant. Then they started charging tuition fees. To hit the 50% target, they dropped the standard so low any moron could get in. But that made degree courses too difficult for most so they lowered the standard. When degrees were only for the top 5% they were like a guaranteed passport to a professional career - you literally had corporations competing to offer you a job. Now they only guarantee a job flipping burgers.

Today universities are full of morons taking degrees in "women's studies", "black studies", "gender studies" etc because that's all they are capable of. Worse of all these people end up in HR departments after they graduate and spread their poison throughout society and the university itself. That's why STEM degrees now include compulsory courses on "diversity and inclusion" - brainwashing the next generation.

>>11836491
>This sandwich isn't free because I have to expend calories moving it to my mouth and chewing

>>11837193
>Today universities are full of morons taking degrees in "women's studies", "black studies", "gender studies" etc because that's all they are capable of.
That's purely because Universities have been commercialised. Don't you want the Uni experience (Tm)? The nightclubs? The bars? Unis aren't learning institutions, they're for making money. It was embarassing watching Unis in the US/UK/Europe beg for government money while they sit on literally billions in savings.

>>11837163
>Have fun paying twice as much as me in taxes so poor kids can sign up for 4 years of classes
Will do! (I'm included in that sooo...)
>classes about how western civilization is evil
Basically no one takes thoses classes, or take like one. Unless you're lumping in things like sociology/anthro, which aren't that and are incredibly good classes for people to take. In fact I think you'd be someone who would really benefit from it
> If you’re already borrowing 50k for college what’s another 5k
It really doesn't have to be that expensive holy hell, I pay ~3000 a year, with scholarship my first year was like 800 a semester

>>11837218
and that's monopoly money, not usd

>>11837121
>On the flip side, the abundance of student loans has allowed many people to attend college who otherwise wouldn't.

Too bad it hasn't changed their IQ - just have to lower the standards so it's not too difficult for them.

>>11829482
Government subsidization of the student loan industry. 60+ years ago you had four groups of people going to college:
>people whose families could pay for it
>people talented enough to get a scholarship
>people dedicated enough to work their way through college
>people banks were confident would do well enough to pay them back eventually
Once the banks were guaranteed payback from the federal government they started giving out student loans like candy and the schools realized they could charge out the ass and still get paid.

>>11830248
EU countries have an average 40% income tax rate compared to an average of ~14% in the US, along with 10-20% VAT's on basically every commodity... and that wouldn't be enough to cover all their "free" shit if America wasn't also subsidizing their defense, research, and healthcare to the tune of several hundred billion dollars every year.

>>11837121
>On the flip side, the abundance of student loans has allowed many people to attend college who otherwise shouldn't.
fixed

>>11830044
what would it cost him though

>>11831296
It's pretty sad how USA is so bad I wish I were in Finland instead. No offense it herd it was cold over ther

>>11837133
Hey, I'm happy that your media makes you happy. And you're also right that being poor in Europe is better than being poor in Africa. Congratulations on your charmed life.

Meanwhile, everyone who doesn't live in your bubble of privilege keeps lining up to come here.

>>11836315
>That’s...not really how it works anon.
Yes it is because I’ve been through it.

> You don’t get something for nothing, you can’t get credit for the work you did without also having the fact considered that you failed and/or dropped out.
You are not allowed to say: I don’t want any credit from my attendance and I don’t want my previous attendance to count for something

>if you don’t tell them
That is considered fraud and you will be expelled if it gets found out.

> You can totally fail out of one school, then 5 years later, enroll in a community college, do well, and get into a university based on those grades..
Nope. Not allowed.

> You’re gonna have to pay for it out of pocket though because if you want the government to help pay for your education you can’t just ignore the fact that you treated it like a joke and wasted thousands of dollars of taxpayer money your first time around.
Implying I don’t have loans I’m not paying from the shitty first round despite not degree. Where the fuck do you live where college is free due to government help?

>>11836315
>So, no, if you’ve already been to college they’re not gonna treat you the same as if you hadn’t, unless you really want them to
They don’t even if you really want them to. There are no second chances.

>>11836315
>You can totally fail out of one school, then 5 years later, enroll in a community college, do well, and get into a university based on those grades...you’re “required” to report your grades from everywhere you attended but they have no way to check
You are required to report any and every school you’ve attended and they check by putting in your info to the national student clearinghouse. If you don’t include it, you will be considered a fraud who made a misrepresentation and expelled and have your degree rescinded if it’s been given.

>>11837305
in germany about 300€ per year

Zoomers and their boomer helicopter Karen moms can’t cope with university admissions being fair and competitive. So they have it designed to only work for freshman upper middle class kids.

>>11836315
>muh dollars
Unironically it would be free this round around cuz I’m poor but back then my asshole parents got counted as my household so I had to take loans despite the fact that they didn’t support me. I have $26k in loans and no degree and I’m not allowed to start at a new school.

>>11837366
yeah but you said

>literally everyone who isn't already rich in their own country

and you're wrong. many people who are financially at the bottom in their own country see the US as a shithole, and moving there for them would leave them worse off. a poor brit moving to the US would leave them in more or less the same situation except with less social safety nets and more school shootings

>you're also right that being poor in Europe is better than being poor in Africa

no shit. our economy is literally built on exploiting land and labour in Africa

>>11837366
That’s not even true.. immigration to muttnerica is actually declining

And let’s be honest only European and Chinese/Indians immigrants are actually useful to US, rest are just thrash and coming to US just to leech off

Don’t think it’s anything to be proud of mate

>>11837366
>my country is spiraling into disaster & more people coming only exacerbates things but hey, at least they're coming to mine & not yours hehe
based American retard

>>11837203
The whole educational system has been corrupted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AxlyBgrb00

>>11837432
>and you're wrong. many people who are financially at the bottom
Great argument, bubble privilege. And still everyone who doesn't live in your colonialist bubble is lining up to come here. Hmm... I wonder why that is?

>>11837456
>>11837514
>>>/pol/

>>11837532
>all the boys in the neighbourhood bang my mom everything hard and make her bleed, while your mom only sleeps with your dad, hehe your mom is ugly ;)

Kek imagine being an amerishart

>>11837539
Perfect example of how /pol/ and /leftypol/ are the same racist idiots. Thanks for the empirical evidence.

>>11837532
again, you said

>literally everyone who isn't already rich in their own country

sounds like you meant to say "literally everyone who isn't rich in [countries I have deemed worse than the US]"

>>11837663
Sounds like you have some nice bubble privilege. I’m happy for you.

>>11837663
Just ignore him, dude, he just wants attention

>>11837697
>posting a brown head as an argument

>>11837697
>posting a brown body as an argument

>>11837697
Another perfect example of how /pol/ and /leftypol/ are the same racist idiots.

>>11837536
Embarrassing.

>>11837386
It’s cute that you think that and it may say that in some dusty book of official policy but no institution you apply for will ever do that

>>11838098
Retard. I tried to apply and re took the act (got 35). The schools all said fuck off you can’t apply and if you “mis represent” we will rescind admission.

>>11837456
Mate if the US allowed them to, the whole of Africa would vacate to go to America. Immigration only declines if the US shuts the door

Education is free.
Just be born in a good country.

Oh you're American?
Die for Israel because thats what you're meant for.

>>11839280
Haven't died for Israel yet and the rest of the world is still flocking to America to educate themselves. Any other arguments?

>>11839331
Good kid. Now don't let me catch you whining about the price of college anymore.

>>11839331
We only want locals in our universities.
The government of Denmark shut down a bunch of degrees taught in English so less people come here to take advantage of the free education.

>>11839342
Your only other argument is that kids whine about the price of college? Lmao have children, anon. They whine about everything.

>>11839350
>The government of Denmark shut down a bunch of degrees taught in English so less people come here to take advantage of the free education.
You should make education free but only in Danish. That way, you will integrate into the country and can work in the country afterwards.

>>11829482
Your shitty college is a scam. Harvard tier Yale tier or those ultra demanding ones in socialist countries that are free but have strict admission exams are where the real knowledge is. You paid to play pretend you were like them

>>11829482
they are expensive because dindus get money from government to go to university so universities have too many people willing to study so they make programmes expensive

>>11836753
lol nice bait

>>11829482
You're giving your institution the resources it needs to keep its excellence. Fancy labs, lab material, researcher bucks and everything else demand funds. On the other side, you're not simply being educated and getting a degree. You're getting access to the labs, to intense networking with academia and even industry, to clubs and teams, being allowed to take part in interesting projects, and, in general, having the peak university experience your country has to offer. That is, if you're attending to a top university and living your opportunity to it's fullest. If not, get fucked.

>>11839376
That's how it is for bachelor degrees yes.

>>11837193
stop telling stories about a country without naming which one you fucking moron. no credibility you shitty cumbrain

>>11837185
I have a job and I didn't go to university. So its actually not the way it is

>>11836753
Imagine, if we didnt spend all our money babysitting niggers we would be on mars by now

>>11829942
Oh, you mean the countries with exorbitant tax rates?

US President Donald Trump signed an executive order eliminating the requirement for a four year college degree for most federal jobs. Only a few skilled professional jobs will still require a degree from a university. Instead applicants will be tested for skills which will be reviewed by subject matter experts.

>>11841613
>prefers to live & die in crippling debt over natural rights like education & healthcare
>prefers to live in a broken society that promotes classism & inequality as he's most likely on a "lower rung" himself
based bootlicking American

>>11840138
Learn how to follow the thread. UK (though Europe was the same at the time).

>>11829482
>I was given nothing!
I was given great opportunities, a plethora of internship and shadowing experiences, access to career planning (where my current employer found me) training certificates, etc and I went to a community college.

It sounds to me like you're just an idiot that shouldn't have gone to college and expected everything to be handed to you on a silver plate

>>11842687
stfu boomer

>>11829509
So never?

>>11829482
>colleges are expensive
*laughs in european

>>11830266
Not everyone is intelligent enough for higher education. Naturally half the population will not have the required IQ to succeed so they are not allowed in.

>>11829956
i spotted the jew

>>11829987
Not being able to do something because you have a full-time job has nothing to do with whether said something is free or not

>>11837364
so you were born in the USA but your grammar is 0?

>>11829482
(1/2)
Ok, tldr: Keynesianism

I think somewhere around the end of WW2 the US decided to guarantee loans to ex army soldiers so they can study. Uni fees back then where way lower than nowadays (inflation included). If I remember correctly the yearly tuition for an Ivy League Uni was about 2000$ (adjusted to inflation). Quickly those loans were accessable to the general public, no matter if you were in the army or not. The government guaranteed everyone a loan for university, practically everyone could afford to go.

Big mistake, the most basic rule of the free market is, as you all know, supply and demand. Universities started capitalizing on those guaranteed loans. No matter how expensive uni fees are, students will be able to pay because the government is guaranteeing them loans. So who profits from inflated tuitions? Banks and Unis. Banks make their money from interest rates while unis make a ridiculous amount of money off of unproportional tuitions.

How could the US tackle the problem?
> Plan A:
The radical and hyper capitalistic way would be to stop loaning money for tuition. Demand would fall because no one would be able to afford uni. Again the market would follow supply and demand, thus unis would have to lower their tuitions to create demand. Problem is, that a lot of people would not be able to pay those lowered tuitions. Its also questionable how fast universities would adjust. A lot of graduates would also feel treated unfairly because the younger generations has to pay much less for uni than they had to.

>>11843624

(2/2)
> Plan B:
Every german guy telling you that Universities in Germany are free is a liar. I am paying about 320€ per Semesters. That would mean I would pay 2240 for a 7 semester bachelors degree. The 320€ fee includes a 6 months public transportation ticket for the whole state and money that directly goes to uni. If you come from a low income household, the government will give you money, max. 850 € if you live alone and somewhere around 550€ if you live with your parents. You'll have to pay half of it back after you graduated.
But still, why don't I pay thousands of euros per semester? The german government directly subsidize the unis for each student. Unis do not have as much leverage on the government as they do have on students. Thus the subsidies are not inflating into infinity.


> Plan C: This plan would be straight up introducing a tuition limit, that unis are not allowed to exceed.

bump