/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11834047
Yes.

>>11834050
Give proof

>>11834047
Only commies don't believe in free will and commies aren't human.

>>11834112
>the validity of a fact depends on who believes it's true
Brainlet detected.

>>11834224
Who decides a fact is a fact ?!

>>11834232
Me

Please take your religious beliefs to the >>>/x/ board op

>>11834047
The Law of One is the most comprehensive and sophisticated worldview I have ever personally encountered, and it says that reality consists of infinite consciousness using "free will" to "explore possibilities" and thereby learn from them while still ultimately remaining as perfect, eternal consciousness. I don't believe in free will because the LoA material says so, but it saying so helps me to believe in the concept.

Consciousness is infinite and undivided, but by attaching itself to local physical vehicles it is able to experience a "simulation" of finitude, and thereby learn what it means to be "separate" and "individual". I said "simulation" because ultimately we aren't finite, separate or individual - we're still infinite and eternal consciousness, but we are attached to a local physical vehicle which is finite, separate and individual (or whatever words you'd use) and can therefore experience a "sense" of what that is like even though our true nature is still here with us the whole time.

So right now, all of us are simply units of eternal consciousness who are using our local free will to pilot these human bodies to experience a simulation of the above attributes and through doing so are able to learn unique lessons we otherwise could not.

I would explain my thoughts better if I had more time and space, but it's better to just read the series for free here:

lawofone.info

>>11834259
It's not a religious belief, it's a part of an ancient philosophical tug-of-war to which the majority modern sciences represent a more heavily determinist faction, but also have proponents of free will alongside them.

i want to say no because given the exact same "seed" of conditions the same thing would happen twice, the universe is entirely deterministic right?

>>11834047
Free will huh? What even is will? What's free about it?
A lot of what your body does isn't up to you to decide. And the thing is, from your own perspective, you can't really know what is or isn't up to you.

>>11834259
This

>>11834047
Define Free Will. Oh wait, you can't.

>>11834271
Hmm. So were the thoughts which formed this comment a choice of yours, or did they essentiall create and then output themselves through a set of limbs which similarly moved by themselves?

Are we causal agents, who have some kind of self-determining factor to ourselves, or are we like a chain of dominos blowing in the wind?

Think carefully before you answer. It's very easy to cast oneself as an automaton for the sake of winning one's own argument, but ultimately since neither of us can prove or disprove free will it will not help your case and will only remind me of the way Daniel Dennett hilariously denies the existence his own consciousness for the sake of advancing his own incoherent position on the issue. Though I'm not saying you can't say we're automatons, I'm only saying that it should be defended by argumentation and that rebranding yourself as such will not improve your position.

>>11834286
A "self-causing" or "self-determining" factor or element. Something which may be interacting with other elements in a causal system, but is not itself the direct cause of. For example, my stomach sends signals to my brain when it detects low food supply. The natural response would then be to find food to eat.
1) Biological determinism would mean that in the event of hunger, you are automatically going to seek out food.
2) Free Will/Self-Determination would mean that even if your body is sending you the most intense signals possible regarding the need for nourishment, there is still ultimately the decision whether to eat or not and that you could even allow yourself to starve to death if you wanted to, because you have the ability to direct your choices irregardless of how strong biological factors influence those decisions.

I gave a realistic example above, but we can abstract further and simply ask the question of whether we are "agents" or simply "automatons". Free will means the former, determinism the latter. Maybe there's options between the two.

These people are tragically and hopelessly predisposed in a way that produces an illusion of free will and autonomy

free will is just an illusion the human brain is deterministic.

>>11834307
So was there no other possibility besides writing this comment that you did? Did an agent produce the comment by choice in response to seeing the thread, or did the comment write itself in response to seeing the thread?

>of course there is free will, watch this:
>starts flailing arms and running around the room
>OOOGGYBIDDOBOOBOODIDDOOBY!
>see, I have free will, how else would I have done that
- average room temp IQ /sci/ poster

>>11834314
no this comment i wrote was already predetermined millions of years ago, when a fish decided to go onto land.

after that fish walked onto land this comment was already completely predetermined

>>11834304
>1) Biological determinism would mean that in the event of hunger, you are automatically going to seek out food.
>2) Free Will/Self-Determination would mean that even if your body is sending you the most intense signals possible regarding the need for nourishment, there is still ultimately the decision whether to eat or not and that you could even allow yourself to starve to death if you wanted to, because you have the ability to direct your choices irregardless of how strong biological factors influence those decisions.
Both of these are true. So it's just another example of "a thing somewhere in the middle of a spectrum that people are trying to argue actually exists on either extreme".

>>11834304
Do you choose whether or not there are thoughts at all?
What mechanism is there to make choices in the first place?
What could a brain possibly do, if it never had a body what-so-ever and had no stimulus what-so-ever, through its entire lifespan?

>>11834259
kys

We must believe in free will, we have no choice.

>>11834047
At a certain level of complexity, determinism becomes indistinguishable from genuine free will.

>>11834374
>t

>>11834262
Interesting...I'll have to take a look at this.

>>11834378
I don't get it.

>>11834047
Yes, but I'm the only existence and just an insane boltzmann brain hallucinating this universe.

>>11834047
Why does the female pizza have hands

Am I banned. Also not sure, and if there was I think it would only be under particular circumstances

>>11834386
Well you're not wrong, but it's the same for every other human as well. We're all the only observer of our own universe

>>11834267
Determinism is irrelevant regarding the free will question. In a universe with determinism there is no free will. In a universe with no determinism (that means a universe with randomness) there is also no free will.

And it is not possible to prove whether quantum mechanics is truly random, to fully prove quantum physics implies randomness you would have to travel back in time and see if some event (say a decayment) produces the same output. For example, measure when a radioactive uranium nuclei decays, then travel back in time and measure if it dalso decays at the same time etc

Depends entirely on how you define it

>>11835305
Dumbest post.

>>11834316
Belief in God is belief in free will. I think they are similar too, because you cannot provide definitive proof they are real or not.
I believe in God. I think it's by design that some things require faith. Belief is something that is interesting of it's own.

You CANNOT force yourself to believe in something. Which is interesting then how can your beliefs on God and free will change? Only based on your process of logic, and collection of experiences and knowledge? You can say you believe in something, you can want something to happen, but a true belief seems to be quite special. There are too many special things in this world and non believers just say everything is a coincidence.

Every painting has a painter. Even without providing me any additional information, give me a fine piece of artwork and I will say that someone created it, The pigment didn't just happen to mix itself and fall onto the page in that composition. So it seems more logical to me to claim that such advanced ordered structure was by design.

>>11834050
why is bill nye on that picture

>>11835353
because your biological sex is on an unlimited spectrum and yours to choose. ITS SCIENCE.
He has a college degree don't you know? Another scientific fact for you.

>>11835231
>one hour ago
>still no response
nice science board

>>11835348
>You CANNOT force yourself to believe in something.
This is patently false. I delude myself all the time. It's how I lie. Actors can make themelves believe things even more. Belief is a volitional process, how could it possibly not be forced?

Whats the opposite of free will? Jailed Will? Paid Will?

>>11835415
On a surface level you can pretend, but on a deep level you cannot.
Believe in God right now then.

Belief is not something you have one day, and the not the next. Belief is something that is a part of you that you carry with you. You have stated yourself you delude yourself. That means you deceive or fool someone, its not the truth. A true belief is not a little trick that is unsustainable.

>>11835448
>Believe in God right now then.
I just did. Now what, punk? I even pray to God when I feel like it. I unlocked those buttons and switches long ago. Get on my meta-cognitive level ;^)

>Belief is not something you have one day, and the not the next.
Obviously false. Belief changes as your will changes. It's no different from being angry or happy.

>>11835485
Belief is not an emotion though. t is different because the truth never changes. Do you believe one day that 2+2=red? Belief is faith in the truth, and there is only one version of the truth. It sounds like to me you are not interested in genuine belief, and instead manipulating yourself or others with parlor trick. What do you know about belief when you are such a habitual liar yourself?

If you believed in God you would know lying is in breach of the 10 commandments. You shall not bear false witness to your neighbor.

>>11834325
okay retard

>>11835500
You are deeply confused. Belief cannot be anything other than a type of emotion for the simple reason that it is a psychlogical state. Your claim that belief is faith in the truth is moving away from confusion and bordering on insanity. If you believe that beliefs can be false, then beliefs can be faith in untruths.

>10 commandments
Anon what are you doing lmao

>>11835523
unless you have the ability to unlearn facts, you cannot control your beliefs the way you claim. I am happy you insult me and call me insane, because if you were complimenting me or agreeing with me I would be deeply concerned.

You are a liar who not only lies to others but yourself. I doubt you even understand what a belief is because. Why would you, it is not something that can be manipulated for your personal gain. You deceive yourself and others, not me. You have never had faith in anything why should you understand the concept?

>>11835402
literally clicked on the thread to find out why

>>11834047
Yes

>>11835231
To make sandwhiches

>>11835597
I am entering the conversation. I don't think a belief is faith in the truth. A belief is simply something you believe in. We can have belief and faith in false things and most of us do. I also don't think we can known what the truth is for sure, because we only rely on our subjective experience. Our whole life experience is subjective.

>>11835485
It's quite hard to make myself believing in something as important as a religion in the long term, also because I don't want to delude myself. At least for me!

>>11835724
>I don't think a belief is faith in the truth
define:belief
be·lief
/bəˈlēf/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
Similar:
faith
trust
reliance
confidence
credence

>I also don't think we can known what the truth is for sure
correct to some degree. not everything is subjective unless you subscribe to complete absurdity.
>>Ah yes, 1+1=2 is subjective, you see to some it may be that 1+1=blue, who is to say. We don't have all the facts!

The difficult truth requires faith, lies and deception are much easier to believe, especially when they are things we want to be true. That is why in religion so many people create their own rules or beliefs. They deceive themselves and believe what they WANT to believe, now what is TRUE. SAD!

I've had this debate so many times and each time I've become more and more convinced that we do have free will but also that most people engaging in this debate are genuine fucking retards who can't grasp basic logic and get stuck in semantics. And no, I won't debate any of you. Whenever I win an argument I start to get called lousy names, nobody ever concedes defeat.

>>11835784
Thanks for stopping by to tell everyone you are better than them. Next time post it in your personal blog instead. This is a forum for discussion, not dumping grounds for you to unload your inflated ego.

You have a poor attitude so I doubt you would offer much insight anyway. I am imagining abusive scoffing when challenged with a question you cannot answer honestly without either conceding yourself or looking like a hypocritical idiot, and doing a bunch of over talking or one way arguing where you control the complete direction of the discussion and any deviation to anything they wish to speak of is seen as a personal attack.

We sure are missing out.

>>11835801
Take a walk or something lmfao. Absolutely fuming.

>>11835832
I was calm when I typed this. Actually quite amused and smug at the moment. Please stop projecting.

There is no way I can convince you through text that I have free will but I know I do.
I believe there are people who have no free will. If you accept this, you have to accept that there is no way to convince another that you have free will. Imagine two people who behaved like people and both trying to convince you that they have free will, but one of them has free will and another one has not. As they both can be intelligent, and say whatever they can to convince you that they have free will, there is absolutely no way for you to determine which one of them actually has free will.
So it's either
1. You believe all people have free will. Then there's nothing to argue about.
2. You believe there can be some people without free will. Then there arguing again is pointless because there is no way I can convince you that I have free will.
If you feel you don't have free will, it's either because:
1. you're mentally ill and have some issues to sort out. This is fixable
2. you actually don't have free will and are a NPC. This is unfixable. Consider killing yourself.

>I was calm when I typed this. Actually quite amused and smug at the moment. Please stop projecting

>>11835860
All people have free will.
Not all people exercise free will. Some are slaves serving other masters biddings.
I wonder, is the phrase "selling your soul" equivalent to "giving the devil your free will"?

>>11835864
bye bye now.

>>11835892
Are you already leaving?

>>11835894
why are you being so hostile? I thought discussion was beneath you?
so you want no discussion, but you are also not leaving?
enjoy your lurking then? you are a strange poster.

>>11834047

Functionally it is as if we have free will, but objectively any human action can only have one of two origins: either there is a preceeding cause or causes (known or unknown) or it was random (and randomness is not free will).

>>11835695
criminally underrated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBA5BUgvMIc

>>11835760
It is quite hard at first. It took me a while to learn how to it, but like anything it can be trained. For me there was a moment when I had a nervous breakdown. The constant stress and anxiety got to a point where I thought I can't live like this anymore, and I didn't care what I had to in order to feel better, I was willing to believe in anything without reservation as long as it could improve my mental health. I ended up giving up worrying on the future and started believing that God is taking care of me. Afterwards I calmed down and went back to normal, but I gradually learned how to trigger a similar state of mind by reflecting on my memory of how it felt like back then.

I think a lot of people have irrational beliefs such that that part of them believes they're true and part of them believes they're false. These are the sort of things you need to learn how to choose what you want to believe. I agree with you that there is a tendency to not want to delude yourself, but that is because you're worrying about losing touch with reality and getting hurt as a result. This is a valid worry but it ends up being too strong. You end up in situations where people wreck themselves with stress because they believe in absurd phobias that ruin their lives because they are worried that if they didn't then they will lose touch with reality and get hurt.

>>11834047
Every possible reality believe it or not, isn't completely random, it's essentially tailored made for you, it's what you wished for. What is a fact is also essentially what is dominant and persuasive over reality, like when you plan a move in chest, if everything went as you'd expect you'd win, but there is certain realities you cannot afford, and even if your reality was theoretically better if you cannot afford to manifest it than it is not a fact. If a crazed person points a gun at your head and tells you to say the earth is flat, then in your current reality, that is a fact, because you cannot afford the more accurate belief that the world is in fact round.

>>11834354
absolutely btfo free will believers

>>11834050
Rationality is grounded in irrationality.
The people on the left were just Chads who knew this, and thus managed to be less delusional than the people on the right side who spent their lives coping, larping, seething, dilating a missing the point.