/sci/ - Science & Math

move big body that way

>>11771018
Dinosaurs didn't have such large brains

>>11771015
They use sonar. Their brains are massive because unlike our eyes that see a 2D image and decipher 3D images from color shades, they decipher everything via sound waves. Their memories would look more like 3D renderings on a computer.

>>11771053
D-Did you shove electrodes into a fucking dolphin or something to figure that out?!

>>11771015
They're basically scions of the sea-god. They're part of earth's natural defense system. They have incredible latent psychic powers, which will emerge when Leviathan awakens from her slumber. They only think thoughts praising and worshiping the sea-god. That's what their songs are. Songs of praise.

>>11771059
Into their brain?
Legally I am required to say "no".

https://youtu.be/piyY-UtyDZw

>>11771053
tfw no ultra geometry big brain

>>11771063
There's a whale Jesus?

>>11771065
But they're way too large to be studied in a lab alive

>>11771072
Seaside laboratories probably
>>11771065
This is freaking me out though

>>11771015
>why did a big animal evolve a big brain
Gee take a guess, retard.

>>11771083
>>11771065

>>11771084
See
>>11771023

>>11771095
aaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAA

>>11771015
Brain volume is largely irrelevant to intelligence, when talking about all animal brains. For example, some birds are way smarter than your dog.

>>11771164
>Brain volume is largely irrelevant to intelligence, when talking about all animal brains. For example, some birds are way smarter than your dog.

>>11771164
>>11771546
Intraspecies brain volume is important and very correlated with intelligence, interspecies brain volume has relatively little correlation with intelligence and can be better explained by brain/body ratio.

>>11771018
Stupidest BS ever propagated. the complexity of keeping a body position map and using the various muscle groups is incredibly low.

>>11771023
Yeah and dinosaurs are fucking dead, aren't they?

>>11771018
Huh, exactly what I'm thinking.

>>11771015
>Why did they evolve such large brains?
they're not large because it's reasonable to apply the brain to body size ratio here...
because they consume such huge amounts of nutrition, there's very little evolutionary tradeoff in having a brain that size. likewise, there probably wasn't any great pressure for extreme performance or efficiency.
another way of putting it... females weren't fucking the best and brightest, otherwise we would've seen specialization toward more brain matter, which there is still plenty of room for.
obvious counter-examples are certain birds and mammals whose brains suck up tons of their nutrition. this would only lead to early death unless their intelligence was so high that it more than overcame the downsides. evolution obviously did select for relatively large, high-performing brains in those cases.

>>11771095
lol they think of us as bipedal cats

The question is: is it better to be thoughtful or dumb? Is it nobler to put up with all the nasty things that luck throws your way, or to swim against all those troubles by simply raping indiscriminately to end to them, all thoughts, once and for all? Swiming, fucking—that’s all living is—a dance that ends all the heartache and shocks that life on earth gives us all-- that’s an achievement to wish for. To swim, to rape—to sleep, maybe to dream. Ah, but there’s the catch: in death’s sleep who knows what kind of dreams might come, after we’ve put the noise and commotion of life right before us. That’s certainly something to celebrate about. That’s the consideration that makes us stretch out our sufferings so long. To live and die for things to put our dicks into. To think like we haven't a care in the world. To know the basist knowledge. We do not need edifice, nor memorials. Those things matter not... It is above all, about the pussy that you got.

>>11771015
brains are the seat of conciousness, sure, but first they are just big juicy endocrine glands, and big animals need lots of juicy horomones to coordinate big bodies chemistry

>>11771624
my thoughts exactly, also what the fuck

>>11771580
I'd like to see you survive a meteor tough guy

>>11771624
>>11771701
The distortion was caused by neurons randomly firing off in the brain and it wasnt known whether the cat's vision was actually distorted like that or that was just what was picked up by the electrodes. I highly doubt a cat would see things like that, it would make vision kind of useless if you couldnt even see clearly in the first place

>>11771627
/lit/ please...please go...
My heart cannot take much more...

>>11771710
my ancestors survived the meteor genius

>>11772082

>>11772086
I fucking hate you. I really do. I hope you get hit by a bus.

>>11771053
ELI 5 Pls?

>>11772097

Dolphins save info as OBJ, FBX, 3DS, PLY, STL files and anything that opens in 3D Blender. Good for spacial memory and awareness, terrible for compressing it down to smaller sizes.

Humans save most info similar to 2D files such as JPEG/JFIF, JPEG 2000, Exif,TIFF, GIF, BMP, PNG, PPM, PGM, PBM, and PNM and anything else that opens in Coral Draw/Paint. 2D pictures are smaller to save.

>>11772077
I ain't smart enough to go.

>>11772114
?

>>11772119
UGH!
3D DOLPHIN SONAR PICTURE = BIG!
2D HUMAN LIGHT PICTURE = SMALL!

>>11772122
Thenk

>>11772082
Well we have chickens in this day and age they just aren't the t-rexes anymore smartass

>>11771164
But can birds be good boys?

>>11771053
Why aren't bats smart then?

>>11772717
They are more reactionary than re-collective. When they blast their sonar, they only save a few frames of 3D or the distance between them and a moths wings, from the face forward as opposed to entire sonar scenes.

Stoned Ape Theory

There are different forms of intelligence. Some species maybe create an autistic precise under see map and develop some high skilled social skills and others invent a gatling-gun.

WHO IS NOW RIGHT, RETARDED WHALE, EAT MY FUCKING LED YOU PEACE OF SHIT. YES YOU WHALE, CRY ME A RIVER MORON!

>>11771164
Birds have some extra adaptations to their neurons that make their brains more compact.
>https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/06/bird-brains-are-densewith-neurons/

>>11771575
And is done via "edge compute" in the spine for common repetetive things

>>11771015
Is density equivalent?

>>11772114
Schizos see the world in 2d, which is why they draw those distorted images, like the hotel transylvania girl posted a few days ago.

>>11772082
>every living thing is the same entity
you're a genius

>>11771164
>brain volume is not the only factor which influences/correlates with intelligence
t. Nerd
>>WOAH guys did you know brain volume is largely irrelevant for intelligence? I fucking LOVE science!
t. too many retards

>>11771546
saved

>>11771095
>if only you knew how bad things really were

>>11773142
fucking kek

Dolphins brainmog everything else out of existence.

>>11771023
the really big ones had mini brains throughout their bodies to control movement

source: my fuzzy memory of an article or something

>>11772883
Scarily enough, yes. Which makes sense since they are saving 3D images in a large brain volume.

>>11771065
Seriously though. Did you?

>>11773185
The whale's brain is clearly larger

>>11773185
we should just catch dolphins and put their brains in jars... "AI".

>>11772859
Then how is it that they constantly strand themselves like retards?

>>11773651

Too smart to not have thumbs. Suicide.

You're all overlooking something.
Why do humans have the brains we have? It's to maintain social groups. We have to figure out what the others in our group want, and what others outside of our group want and whether it's a threat to our group. It's to process emotions, in other words.
Dolphins feel things we people wouldn't believe.

>>11771015
big brains dont matter you dolt, brain size vs body mass matters. most of the brain is dedicated to regulating body functions, hence the bigger the body the bigger the brain. its why white women can have smaller brains than black men but still be immensely more intelligent.

>>11773705
you could say brain surface size as well, hence the wrinkles in the brain increasing brain surface. there are more wrinkles in the human brain, therefore more brain surface, therefore more capacity for brain activity

>>11773692
That is not the reason. Even ants can do that with their little brains.

>>11773705
That was mostly made up as an explanation for the obvious lack of correlation of brain size with intelligence, but there is no good reason why that should be the case.
>>11773709
Cetaceans actually have much more wrinkled brains than we do.

>>11773587
but not as wrinkly/separated

>>11773692
typical normie outlook

>>11771015
>What kind of thoughts might they have?
Fugg wypipo

>>11771063
Can confirm
I once looked into the eye of a Blue Whale. My spirit ascended for those brief 10 seconds

>>11771065
This was 1999, where are we at now??

>>11773651
Because they use the earth's magnetic field to navigate and it's been going crazy for the past few years.

>>11773692
emotions and tribal group stuff was not really the driver of our development...apes already do that
humans excelled beyond apes in creating and making use of the products of society--hunting, food prep, clothing, shelter, storytelling, etc.
in fact, it's the ability to pursue goals far beyond the mere group that makes us human.

>>11771015
>What kind of thoughts might they have?

Ah … ! What’s happening?
Er, excuse me, who am I?
Hello?
Why am I here? What’s my purpose in life?
What do I mean by who am I?
Calm down, get a grip now … oh! this is an interesting sensation, what is it? It’s a sort of … yawning, tingling sensation in my … my … well I suppose I’d better start finding names for things if I want to make any headway in what for the sake of what I shall call an argument I shall call the world, so let’s call it my stomach.
Good. Ooooh, it’s getting quite strong. And hey, what’s about this whistling roaring sound going past what I’m suddenly going to call my head? Perhaps I can call that … wind! Is that a good name? It’ll do … perhaps I can find a better name for it later when I’ve found out what it’s for. It must be something very important because there certainly seems to be a hell of a lot of it. Hey! What’s this thing? This … let’s call it a tail – yeah, tail. Hey! I can can really thrash it about pretty good can’t I? Wow! Wow! That feels great! Doesn’t seem to achieve very much but I’ll probably find out what it’s for later on. Now – have I built up any coherent picture of things yet?
No.
Never mind, hey, this is really exciting, so much to find out about, so much to look forward to, I’m quite dizzy with anticipation …
Or is it the wind?
There really is a lot of that now isn’t it?
And wow! Hey! What’s this thing suddenly coming towards me very fast? Very very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like … ow … ound … round … ground! That’s it! That’s a good name – ground!

I wonder if it will be friends with me?

flow in action

>>11775379
Well like if intelligence is flow and humans seem more intelligent than animals because we produce things (and wreck ourselves and the planet in the process) because we do a huge amount of problem creation. Seems like we create problems just to solve them. Without observers there are no problems. And whales just flow around in harmony with the earth and sing across the sea and things. They dont have that many problems really. I mean it's not all rainbows and butterflies cause they fight and shit and get hungry but life seems pretty chill.

>>11771786
clearly the solution is to do the same thing with a human. I wonder if they have

1. white male
2. white female
3. asian male
4. asian female
5. mestizo
6. dolphins
7. niggers
8. elephants
9. monkeys
10. some birds

>>11773637
The problem is that... actually there is non, perhaps what you say is true, a dolphin brains prefrontal cortex is massive, but it is the way it is wired that prevents it from learning something new. (most of the data load it receives is copious quantities of 3D sonar images). Wired differently though...maybe it might be a mother AI.

>>11778069

Shit we need to know

>>11778105
>asian male
>white male
>black male
>dolphins
>elephants
>monkeys
>some birds
>all femalea
FTFY

>>11778105
>0. Whales
>1. white male
>2. white female
>3. asian male
>4. asian female
>5. mestizo
>6. dolphins
>7. niggers
>8. elephants
>9. monkeys
>10. some birds

>>11775287
They have songs, dialects, and names and can hear each other from the other side of the planet

>>11778237
You really failed to see that reference. Incredible.

>>11778206
the fact that they used a cat and not a human shows that either it's fake or theres's some moral reason to not using a human.

>>11772122
*dabs thankfully in your general direction*

>>11771063
Cool shit. Any more intel?

>>11771015
Brain to body mass is what matters. You need a bigger brain to control more body mass. The ratio is what matters. The more brain matter that's left over for things other than motor control dictates pptential intelligence.

>>11771015
I would guess they might have drowned a lot, so they had to evolve bigger brains to plan ahead.

>>11772122
I don’t get it

>>11773188
Ok show the proof man.
show me the dinosaur
hmmmmm
it's almost like speculating about nothing is retarded.

>>11778105
Rolling

>>11781945
ok retard

>>11773637
We should.
Let's also test if conciousness can be "paused" or "rebooted". Intuitively, it seems plausible that it can be as long as the brain structure remains intact, but last I checked it was still contested.

>>11771023
blue whale brain post

>>11779631
Gee I wonder what moral reason could they have to not fucking open a live humans skull for a research project

>>11772086
i don't get it

>>11783056
did they open the cat's head? didn't look like it to me.

>>11783199
Meat-Eeyore

>>11778226
>people with ADHD
>spergs
>asian male
>white male
>asian female
>white female
>dolphins
>elephants
>chimps
>orangutans
>bonobos
>hispanic male
>hispanic female
>black males
>some birds
>black female

FTFY

>>11771023
dinosaurs had two brains though

>>11771053
Sounds like bullshit to me. Humans and presumably other animals also can conceptualize 3d space. Does sonar let you see all sides of objects in 3D space? Given the signal has to bounce off an object and return I don't see how.

>>11784478
The same way it makes you see the baby in the womb, I suppose. I also suppose the anon you're replying to is stereoblind.

>>11785021
The way human eyes interpret signal is based on 2D representations of 3D objects. Our eyes, save for the curvature of the eye itself will only receive light as it's reflected off surfaces. Thus the image of what we see is flat and arriving all at once due to the speed at which light travels. 2D. We see it or interpret it as 3D because our cones pick up the shape of what we see via colors to aid our reconstruction of depth.
This is why depth illusions like artwork are visible to you and me and work on people.

However, a dolphin will see *pic related* and immediately know if it's concave or convex based on latency of sound and signal reverberations.
>>11785021
Exactly like an ultrasound.

>>11785072
O-Okay, but did you actually butcher a poor dolphin to see through its brain. I'm freaking out.

>>11785086

>>11785072
We have two eyes, which also allows us to see in 3D directly, as the 3D shape can be rather straightforwardly calculated from the two different images. Those depth illusions only work because the picture is 2D. You would immediatelly see through all perspective illusions if you were actually there when the pictures were taken.

Again, you are most likely stereoblind. Look it up.

>>11785109
>because the picture is 2D
Boy you are gonna be frazzled when you realize it works in real life too.

>>11785879
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoblindness

>>11784465
>>11773188
Debunked popsci nonsense

>>11771015
Complex communication. They have dialects.

>>11784397
fuck i want to die now

>>11778226
sexist bigot, white women have invented, composed, painted and produced more than nigger males

>>11786076
>>11778226
>spend 10 minutes doing fucking captcha and forget image
ffs

>>11785918
I can "see" 3D just fine. I am telling you that the way we "see" 3D things is dependent on a weird color shade dependent 2D method.

>>11771015
In short they have more glial cells (contrast to some birds which have virtually none).
That just suggests a different type of regulation needed for their neurons (maybe harsher environments exist in the sea compared to land).

It's difficult to compare to humans because we don't know what it means for function (bigger = ???). We do know that human brain DENSITY is among the highest in the animal kingdom - so many people think it's the density that matters.

Additionally the space these animals live in is way more "3D" than our space. The parts of the brain (Parietal ctx) that are enlarged typically are associated with spatial reasoning/context. The pre-frontal cortices (where "rules" of the world live) are pretty underdeveloped in these guys tho.

also their pineal glands are way over-calcified, not woke senpai

>>11786113
Have you ever learned seeing those "magic eye" images?

>>11785958
>source: my ass

>>11786113
You can determine depth with one eye if you just move your head side to side a little. Its what happens when you lose an eye

>>11786267
Yes I can see them just fine.

>>11786328
>>11786497
Disparity between two 2D images is still using 2D images.

>>11786497
>>11786502
The disparity allows to *calculate* (that is, not guess) the corresponding 3D space. The identical parts are infinity. Then you get nearer and nearer surfaces as you move the images closer together and compare if they match.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax

>>11786328
But if you change the lighting the effect will remain even with an eye training back and fourth. You're neglecting light sources and color shading.

>>11786778
I was more or less saying that humans dont see in raw 2D, we can see depth by comparing perspective from two points or by moving one eye to gain a new perspective

>>11786796
I'd like to add that at a good distance we do see in 2d when the distance between our eyes doesnt provide any difference in what we can see

>>11786778
>>11786805
Fucking please:>>11785918

what if whales literally thought of all math and science before we did, but couldn't build space ships because of their lack of hands?

>>11786778
Fucking please:>>11785918

>>11786807
you're replying to to different anons there. the second one is arguing FOR 3d vision, but not at a far distance. Your ability to determine depth is going to decline as thigs get further away

>>11785072
Okay I see that using sonar gives you extra latency information, but using light gives you more valuable frequency information (i.e. color). Perhaps there is some distortion of the frequency and whales and dolphins can turn that into information, but it is not nearly as useful as everything the interaction of light with matter tells you.

Also since the wavelength of sound is lower, and I doubt there is anything like a lens for the sonar signal you are not going to get nearly as detailed information about the outside world from sonar.

>>11771015
>What kind of thoughts
https://youtu.be/CK0cUv3ba-o

>>11786861
>I doubt there is anything like a lens for the sonar signal
>.>"

>>11786865
What point are you trying to make?

>>11786895
I may have stumbled on research pertaining to something like a lens for sonar.
"<.<

>>11771065

>>11771015
As a percentage of body size that whale brain is pretty small, adult blues can get over a hundred feet long.

>>11786861
I meant to say wavelength is bigger, but you get the point.

>>11771063
Based scions.

>>11786865
>>11786928
There is no way to lens long wavelengths, it just isn't possible.

>>11771065
>catlike
It looks like a dog to me.

>>11775287
Never thought I'd see a Hitchhikers reference here. Good job, anon

>>11771053

I'm not denying that their brains have to be huge in order to use sonar effectively in a near empty water world. But the rest of your statement I disagree with. Our "eyes" don't see 2D images. Each eye independently sees a 2D image, different from the other eye, and our brain them mashes them together to create a 3D image in our mind that somehow just isn't an overlay of the two images. The shit our brain does (and pretty much all animals) to give us 3D vision is nuts. Sonar automatically gives you the 3D interpretation as soon as you receive it. You don't need to turn it into 3D. That being said, I'm sure it's fuck hard to turn a sound wave into an image, so I'm not discrediting them there.

But at the same time, other anons have mentioned how bats don't have fuck-huge brains. It could have something to do with the fact that whales live in water, and that limiting medium has caused for their intelligence to balloon. Specifically the dolphin type whales which are smarter than the other non-dolphin whales.

>>11790820
As I wrote above, turning the 2D images into 3D is utterly trivial, basically just move the images against each other and pick areas that match the best, which gives you your depth. Not that there might be no ambiguities, but those are nothing compared to sound, that must be completely reconstructed from just TWO separate imputs. Even human auditory processing is insanely complex and not yet well understood.

>>11790820
Sonar doesn't give 3D, it gives 2D snapshots just like 2 eyes does.

>>11771065

This would be no different than if these scientists performed the same experiment with humans, no? It's just that getting human subjects for this would be near impossible. Or is there something to non-human animals that is important, here?

I guess new information could come in the sense that cats don't see as well as we do, so it could be interesting to see if they form images differently than we do. But we don't really "know" how humans do it either. At least, we don't know in the sense that we haven't done experiments like these with humans (that I know of).

It would be interesting to see the way animals produce images who see completely differently or better than humans. Birds, for example, with their extra colour receptor and sharper vision. Cephalopods (except the nautilus) have exceptional vision and have a more efficient eye than humans in the sense that they don't have a blind spot. Human eyes are extensions of the brain, whereas ceph eyes are created separately and grow backwards into their brain. Also, alarmingly, cephs don't see colour. So we currently have no real understanding of how they're able to mimic their surroundings with such stunning accuracy.

>>11786864

This was extremely unsettling to watch. How did people find this funny? What am I missing? I was just uncomfortable the whole time.

>>11772859
>haha gun don't go brrr underwater

>>11773651
The sea is full of ocean-noise, it's a literal hell for them.

>>11786497
So we live in a hologram?

>>11775870
they don't really have the power to do anything else

>>11771065
why does this fake bullshit get posted over and over again

>>11790820
>>11790829
So in comparison, to workput the sound from the two "pixels" (all be it with better spectral resolution) the brain has to correlate the sounds against each other, then substract them to reveal other sounds. Once correlated, the delay between the two inputs shows how far the sound is off axis, while the difference in volume in relation to the delay shows the distance. (Sound engineers try to combat the combing effects, but that's IMO counterproductive and makes the song sound unnatural, as the distortion is expected) There are likely other things dealing with reverb or sound hright, for which there is no straightforward information in the input. Other things, such as pitch, also are not always directly available, since pitch is the difference between the harmonic frequencies, the fundamental frequency doesn't even need to be audible. In fact the bigger brains of primates might have evolved to deal with our interferometry based ears. (Most other mammals have ears that can be focused physically like classical antennas)

Correlating the objects in the visual input is nothing in comparison.

>>11790820
>>11790829
So in comparison, to workout the sound from the two "pixels" (all be it with better spectral resolution) the brain has to correlate the sounds against each other, then substract them to reveal other sounds. Once correlated, the delay between the two inputs shows how far the sound is off axis, while the difference in volume in relation to the delay shows the distance. (Sound engineers try to combat the combing effects, but that's IMO counterproductive and makes the song sound unnatural, as the distortion is expected) There are likely other things dealing with reverb or sound height, for which there is no straightforward information in the input. Other things, such as pitch, also are not always directly available, since pitch is the difference between the harmonic frequencies, the fundamental frequency doesn't even need to be audible. In fact the bigger brains of primates might have evolved to deal with our interferometry based ears. (Most other mammals have ears that can be focused physically like classical antennas)

Correlating the objects in the visual input is nothing in comparison

>>11790820
>>11790829
So in comparison, to workout the sound from the two "pixels" (all be it with better spectral resolution) the brain has to correlate the sounds against each other, then substract them to reveal other sounds. Once correlated, the delay between the two inputs shows how far the sound is off axis, while the difference in volume in relation to the delay shows the distance. There are likely other things dealing with sound height, for which there is no straightforward information in the input, or reverb. (Sound engineers try to combat the combing effects, but that's IMO often counterproductive and makes the song sound unnatural, as the distortion is expected and provides a sense of space) Other things, such as pitch, also are not always directly available, since pitch is the difference between the harmonic frequencies, the fundamental frequency doesn't even need to be audible. In fact the bigger brains of primates might have evolved to deal with our interferometry based ears. (Most other mammals have ears that can be focused physically like classical antennas)

Correlating the objects in the visual input is nothing in comparison.

>>11773185

The whales brain is larger, but dolphin brains have many more dense folds, which actually increases the density of cortical matter, much like our brains, the only disadvantage dolphins have is that the hemispheres don’t work together as much as ours do, the almost have two brains, in fact evidence shows that dolphins usually alternate whichever half they use and have wakefulness cycles instead of having true sleep.

>>11792994

Our brains are kind of like a single cpu having two cores, but with multithreading, whereas dolphins brains are more like and old double-socket server motherboard, with two single core CPU’s with limited cross-talk and no multithreading

>>11771015
RAEP

>>11792994
People only use the left hemisphere, the right one does nothing particular. It seems our cerebellums have no capacity to control both, so that one of them gets disconnected early on. (Except for autists and similar impairments, where the lateralization fails to occur) You usually only have minimal impairment if you suffer damage in the right hemisphere.

>>11792994
>>11793009
People only use the left hemisphere, the right one does nothing particular. It seems our cerebellums have no capacity to control both, so that one of them gets disconnected early on. (Except for autists and similar impairments, where the lateralization fails to occur) You usually only have minimal impairment if you suffer damage in the right hemisphere. (You may have trouble with getting jokes or concentration when you suffer right hemisphere damage, while the same damage in the left hemisphere may leave you unable to understand language at all.)

>>11790779

>>11779631

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsp1KaM-avU

>>11786805
Then, why don't we see in 2d when we simply close one eye?

>>11795849
Because, really now for fucks sake this>>11785918
The difference should be completely obvious if you were not stereoblind. People cannot pour their drinks etc. when they lose an eye.

>>11791187
because its not fake

>>11771665
Where in the brain is consciousness sited?