/sci/ - Science & Math

worthwhile goods are fissile materials, hydrogen/methane/oxygen, volume (as in things that can hold an atmosphere), machinery, consumables like food, and prostitutes.

>>11763031
People will look for a new life, an exciting one and following an ideal. Those people will need entertainment, healthcare, transportation, logistics, construction, goods, services etc. So thats a financial reason. If spaceflight is cheap enough to transport goods you are going to see precious metal mines moved off of earth for environmental reasons, you will see manufacturing and other environmentally unfriendly industries be moved off earth with automation keeping manpower needs down. You will see science and academic programs on mars as well as agricultural r&d. I'm sure there's plenty I'm missing too

>>11763031
>interplanetary
none. can't fix 0.37g's, we will never permanently live on mars and the other planets are even worse
>artificially spun captured asteroids
jackpot baby

>>11763031
>What goods would even be worthwhile to transport?
alien artifacts

>>11763385
Were it so easy

>>11763366
> can't fix 0.37g's
Unironically why don't we just weigh things down and make a car weigh 73% more?

>>11763414

>>11763421
Ah, the indigenous work force of foreign planets. The UK will be back in prime Colonial mood quite shortly. God save the queen, and HMS Falcon 9-A!

Mass-produced autonomous drones powered by fission scavanging asteroids for stuff to mine, refine and get back to deliver and refuel on orbit are the only realistic solution right now
Manned deep space flight is just not worth it, humans need too much conditions which are hard to maintain that lots of relatively smart drones are a better option

>>11763550
hm, interplanetary drone swarms don't seem to have had their due payed to them by scifi

>>11763366
lol you can build rotating habs on mars dude

>>11763366
>>11763563
What's wrong with low G living? You don't think 3 or 4 generations in they'll be aghast at the concept of 2.702x "Earthian" gravity?

>>11763031
>what goods be even worthwhile to transport

nigga are you retarded? We are the only planet to have water on our planet. We are sitting on a goldmine

>>11763563
draw a diagram

>>11763576
>We are the only planet to have water on our planet.
Looks like you are the only retarded one here

>>11763031
uh, like ring type tubes that might guide orbit of sent cargo? idk if that is possible to keep stationary sans le gorple / le-grange points

>>11763031
TBQH this is the only worthwhile human endeavor.

>>11763366
You can have rotating habitats on a planetary surface too

>>11763031
Different regions of our solar system got different resources. Asteroids are full of precious metals and could be mined easily. These are needed on Earth. There is plenty of CO2 on Venus but almost no water. There is lot's of water on comets and moons of the outer solar system. The inner solar system got plenty of cheap energy from the sun while far out colonies need this. Zero gravity can be beneficial for manufacturing. Earth got a huge population, is a prime tourist destination and could export luxury goods like rare animals and art.

>>11764009
so you're saying it could be theoretically possible that in a distant future we could find a planet with very little water and vast quantities of a certain spice melange?

>>11763031
Ores and rare earths from the asteroid belt. Within two decades, it will be much more feasible to mine the Solar system with autonomous craft than use earthbound mines. Asteroids are more accessible than the lowers parts of Earth's crust. It's also environmentally more sound, and if colonisation actually gets going it's much more sensible to use raw materials outside Earth's deep gravity well.

Mars economy will be research, tourism and transportation (belt mining) based.

>>11763916
not practical due to friction

>>11763031
Probably precious metals. Maybe computer chips and other specialty tech. Seeds for gmo crops. People. Most things of value these days are data, so the information economy would translate.

>>11763575
you assume they'll just adapt with no evidence and all evidence to the contrary. in reality, they'd probably have a myriad of birth defects, health problems, short lifespan, extremely high infant mortality, high rate of cancer, etc.

>>11764009
>These are needed on Earth.
No they're not. Earth has plenty and well-established monopolies on most things. It's not economical to get resources from space nor would the established economy allow it to happen. This established economy WISHES there were shortages of resources so much that it fabricates such a thing, because it is very lucrative.

Robert Zubrin wrote a whole chapter on this in his book "The Case For Mars".

>Mars is the best target for colonization in the solar system because it has by far the greatest potential for self-sufficiency. Nevertheless, even with optimistic extrapolation of robotic manufacturing techniques, Mars will not have the division of labor required to make it fully self-sufficient until its population numbers in the millions. Thus, for decades and perhaps longer, it will be necessary, and forever desirable, for Mars to be able to import specialized manufactured goods from Earth. These goods can be fairly limited in mass, as only small portions (by weight) of even very high-tech goods are actually complex. Nevertheless, these smaller sophisticated items will have to be paid for, and the high costs of Earth-launch and interplanetary transport will greatly increase their price. What can Mars possibly export back to Earth in return?

>It is this question that has caused many to incorrectly deem Mars colonization intractable, or at least inferior in prospect to the Moon. For example, much has been made of the fact that the Moon has indigenous supplies of helium-3, an isotope not found on Earth and which could be of considerable value as a fuel for second generation thermonuclear fusion reactors. Mars has no known helium-3 resources. On the other hand, because of its complex geologic history, Mars may have concentrated mineral ores, with much greater concentrations of precious metal ores readily available than is currently the case on Earth — because the terrestrial ores have been heavily scavenged by humans for the past 5,000 years.

>If concentrated supplies of metals of equal or greater value than silver (such as germanium, hafnium, lanthanum, cerium, rhenium, samarium, gallium, gadolinium, gold, palladium, iridium, rubidium, platinum, rhodium, europium, and a host of others) were available on Mars, they could potentially be transported back to Earth for a substantial profit. Reusable Mars-surface based single-stage-to-orbit vehicles would haul cargoes to Mars orbit for transportation to Earth via either cheap expendable chemical stages manufactured on Mars or reusable cycling solar or magnetic sail-powered interplanetary spacecraft. The existence of such Martian precious metal ores, however, is still hypothetical.

>But there is one commercial resource that is known to exist ubiquitously on Mars in large amount — deuterium. Deuterium, the heavy isotope of hydrogen, occurs as 166 out of every million hydrogen atoms on Earth, but comprises 833 out of every million hydrogen atoms on Mars. Deuterium is the key fuel not only for both first and second generation fusion reactors, but it is also an essential material needed by the nuclear power industry today. Even with cheap power, deuterium is very expensive; its current market value on Earth is about $10,000 per kilogram, roughly fifty times as valuable as silver or 70% as valuable as gold. This is in today’s pre-fusion economy. Once fusion reactors go into widespread use deuterium prices will increase. All the in-situ chemical processes required to produce the fuel, oxygen, and plastics necessary to run a Mars settlement require water electrolysis as an intermediate step. As a by product of these operations, millions, perhaps billions, of dollars worth of deuterium will be produced.

>Ideas may be another possible export for Martian colonists. Just as the labor shortage prevalent in colonial and nineteenth century America drove the creation of “Yankee ingenuity’s” flood of inventions, so the conditions of extreme labor shortage combined with a technological culture that shuns impractical legislative constraints against innovation will tend to drive Martian ingenuity to produce wave after wave of invention in energy production, automation and robotics, biotechnology, and other areas. These inventions, licensed on Earth, could finance Mars even as they revolutionize and advance terrestrial living standards as forcefully as nineteenth century American invention changed Europe and ultimately the rest of the world as well.

>Inventions produced as a matter of necessity by a practical intellectual culture stressed by frontier conditions can make Mars rich, but invention and direct export to Earth are not the only ways that Martians will be able to make a fortune. The other route is via trade to the asteroid belt, the band of small, mineral-rich bodies lying between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter. There are about 5,000 asteroids known today, of which about 98% are in the “Main Belt” lying between Mars and Jupiter, with an average distance from the Sun of about 2.7 astronomical units, or AU. (The Earth is 1.0 AU from the Sun.) Of the remaining two percent known as the near-Earth asteroids, about 90% orbit closer to Mars than to the Earth. Collectively, these asteroids represent an enormous stockpile of mineral wealth in the form of platinum group and other valuable metals.

>Miners operating among the asteroids will be unable to produce their necessary supplies locally. There will thus be a need to export food and other necessary goods from either Earth or Mars to the Main Belt. Mars has an overwhelming positional advantage as a location from which to conduct such trade.

>>11764190
>>11763031
Dumb scifi memes about space and pandering to manchildren using them is 1000x more profitable than actually doing something in space will ever be. It is the idea and content created from that idea, especially when it apes some level of realism that will never be, that is relevant. Thus, anything done is space would be to best fuel this content. Meaning materially and scientifically useless but appealing to the manchildren and the space-awe instilled in the general population decades past.

>>11764184
Could work on the moon, with no atmosphere it could levitate with magnetic coils and no friction.
Still too cumbersome and expensive to be practical I'm afraid.

>>11764228
Eventually, we should evolve to be better suited to lower gravity conditions. Man, I wish I could be around to see it

>>11763575
ok yeah...and the ones that by random chance don't, and have kids, and their kids don't,...it's evolution. maybe a bit longer than 3 or 4 generations, but selective pressure will be high

>>11764243
So, space made anime figurines?

>>11764253
there's no saying whats practical when talking about this sorta shit, for all we know there'll be multi-trilllionaires wanting a getaway on Mars at 1g.

>/cyi/ - Cynicism & Nihilism
Shit niggers, there are levels to pessimism even for anons, why even get out of bed with that attitude?

Earth provides

>colonists/hookers
>the beginning for ISRU industries like steel mills, habitat excavators, or plastic production lines
>goods that are too much of a pain in the ass to make on Mars, like computer chips, GMO crops, and fuel rods for nuclear reactors
>a ton of telecommuters for everything ranging from coding to psychotherapy because having a guy on earth who communicates with a satellite dish on Mars is way cheaper than having a guy on Mars. Note that the 18 minute delay for speed of light will limit what these people can do

Mars provides

>bragging rights
>scientific discoveries (possibly proof of life on Mars or something cool like that)
>military benefits (space force base on mars could probably do some kind of cool shit
>the ultimate tourism opportunity
>precious metals (you can mine virgin platinum reserves, refine it on mars, and ship that shit back)
>a jumping off point for expeditions deeper in the solar system, such as the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, or mining missions in the asteroid belt
>souvenirs, I bet you anything they make some shitty Martian wine that's fertilized with human feces, and retards buy it for 9001 dollars a bottle

Depends on the economic system but trade will still be needed as different locations have different production advantages and different materials available.
Outer system plants and moons might produce gasses and computing services, maybe water and hydrocarbons as well. Asteroid belts might produce metals. Rocky planets will likely import various raw materials while space habitats need all sorts of raw materials while producing manufactured goods and probably food as well.

There is no real way to predict how things will work beyond some basic frameworks like how various elements are distributed. It also depends on the maturity of the system. At first most of humans will live on earth and colonies and space habitats simply represent a tiny portion of humanity at which point exporting physical products from earth still makes sense. At a later stage you might see majority of the species living in space based habitats at which point earth might have zero or no exports and instead rely on services like system governance, company income and tourism. It's very likely economy itself will fundamentally change with automation anyways, non monetary systems doesn't work because there is no way to efficiently allocate resources but with advanced AI and self replicating factories those things could become a thing of the past, instead energy might become the new currency since once the first fully self replicating factory lands on new planet or moon it can essentially produce "infinite" and "free" products with only real limit being the resource availability and energy. The first one could be unlimited if human population growth stagnates or the key limitation if it doesn't for instance.

>>11763031
First material to be acquired from space He3 for fusion reactors. We will mine it on the moon.

Mars colony has loads of resources to make rocket fuel and is optimally located for asteroid mining

Those minerals will be sold back to Earth

>>11763577
Cant find a good one but like a rotating centrifugal bowl, like those wall rides at a fair but offset so the net effect of mars gravity and artificial balances out to stick you to the sloped wall of the habitat. Also like an inclined raceway on earth. They work fine I promise.

>>11764022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPJ0AB12h1I

>>11766285
Sounds like the mars dust would break it in a few minutes

>>11764243
The time may not be now or a millennia from now but to maintain industrialised society on Earth we will eventually have to reach out. If it was economical it would be done and it wont be done until it is economical. Private industry is not interested in 'pie in the sky' R&D so states bare this cost in the hopes that the advancements they make bring us closer to a economic stake in space and the resources we will eventually need, hopefully before (if ever) things sour on Earth and put that out of reach.

>>11766171
Asteroids are already optimally located for asteroid mining complete with chemical and nuclear fuel reserves, if your going to be sending stuff back to Earth you may as well send it from Earth, your not saving that much by assembling and launching it from Mars w/ logistics, colony costs and additional gravity wells until it is very highly developed

>>11766307
Maybe but abrasive dust might be a bother for humans too, also to keep friction down it should be on magnets in a vacuum, costly of course but we dont yet know if its necessary at all especially if you could get away maybe just sleeping/working out under like 2g'.

>>11766307
>>11766335
Actually hold that, mars atm pressure is like nothing 0.1 of nothing and mag-lev has no moving parts

>>11763031
>ow would trade and industry be done on an interplanetary level?

Almost ZERO trade in material items, most trade will be cultural and entertainment (movies, books, music, art, etc), shipping material items is a huge waste of resources. Only physical items shipped would be humans and really advanced technical equipment.

>>11766396
>shipping material items is a huge waste of resources
Not long term no. Things like lithium mines will absolutely be sent to mars when things are cheap enough.

>>11766335
>not wasting earth resources
Mans manufacturing would be better for the earth

>>11766463
I dont follow, is this the right post? Any mission to retrieve asteroid material will net more than it costs as a matter of economics, thats material the Earth will need for its manufacturing

>>11766308
Industrial society won't be maintained and they will keep feeding delusions to profit off till the very end.

>>11764350
Really? And why are you so faithful? There is no example of such extreme evolution much less in a feasible time frame. More likely they will degrade generation by generation and eventually be incapable of reproducing.

>>11766477
I meant *mars manufacturing* so raw material gathering and industrial production being moved to mars would be better for the earth.

>>11763557

You gotta have characters in the story, or else only autistic humans will be interested

>>11764233

>muh established economy

Only cares about a minority of people, >>11764009 is referring to maintaining the growth of prosperity for all people

Bampu

>>11768456
>is referring to maintaining the growth of prosperity for all people
Doesn't exist. I don't like either side. I'm just telling you the reality of power and economics.

>>11764009
yeah, but how do you transport all that stuff back to earth/moon colony/mars colony without costing more than the stuff inside your ship? you need a ship who can reach at least 20-30% of speed of light otherwise will be a waste of time and resources to go there, take resources and comeback

>>11763031
Interplanetary? The only way Mars is worthwhile economically is if the build a space elevator to one of the moons and start mining that. Mars itself has nothing to offer to us except for bragging rights.

Asteroid mining is the big one. Noble metals are valuable enough that shipping them back to Earth turns a profit until the market crashes, which probably wouldn't happen for at least the first few decades. Afterwards space infrastructure is developed enough to drive trade forever. Also pic related. It's a fiber-optic crystal grown in microgravity vs normal gravity. There's advanced manufacturing only possible in space.

>>11770018
It would be stupid an a waste of fuel to go this fast. You got all the time in the world. There is no need to hurry.

>>11763031
Old copies of elite: dangerous.