/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11664160
The monoamine hypothesis of depression isn't even accepted by mainstream researchers anymore. The public and practicing psychiatrists haven't gotten the memo yet, so the pharmaceutical industry capitalizes on their ignorance, even though they're well aware antidepressants don't work.

>>11664160
You're correct, the basis on which it lies is mostly pseudoscientific. However, the purpose of psychiatry is not primarily to make well fleshed out, falsifiable theories linking subjective, individual experiences of mental disorders to objective phenomena in the brain. The main purpose of psychiatry is to control low functioning people, (sounds tinfoil-y, I realize), because those individuals will destabilize society by either killing other people or themselves if they are not subdued with neuroleptic medications. Deep down psychiatric practitioners probably know this, but many are of course doing this work out of empathy, so it wouldn't be quite right to think of them as scheming agents of dominant power structures. But, that's how it works in practice: those with wealth and stable lives need civilization in turn to be stable, which necessitates lobotimizing those who cannot adopt to the system. That's why psychiatrists usually have a paternal/maternal thing gong on, even more so than regular doctors: they are more or less authoritarian guardians of current government/the elites who must subdue those who cannot adopt to the system. A revolution might produce a civilization in which those who end up in psychiatric offices are better off, but this must of course always be resisted by those in power.

>>11664241
>destabilize society by either killing other people or themselves
>destabilize society
>by killing themselves
lol nah

>>11664241
>But, that's how it works in practice: those with wealth and stable lives need civilization in turn to be stable, which necessitates lobotimizing those who cannot adapt to the system.

>>11664160
Take your meds

>>11664241
>That's why psychiatrists usually have a paternal/maternal thing gong on, even more so than regular doctors: they are more or less authoritarian guardians of current government/the elites who must subdue those who cannot adapt to the system

>>11664160
People have symptoms
People take drugs
People get better

People have symptoms
People don't take drugs
People don't fell better

Do some math.....
Drugs might have some effects
Do more tests, more math
Drugs probably are the cause of people feelling better.

-> Science

>>11664241
>falsifiable theories linking subjective, individual experiences of mental disorders to objective phenomena in the brain.
then why is it any different than freudian psychoanalisis or magic or religion?

>>11664314

>>11664314
>o it wouldn't be quite right to think of them as scheming agents of dominant power structures. But, that's how it works in practice: those with wealth and stable lives need civilization in turn to be stable, which necessitates lobotimizing those who cannot adopt to the system. That's why psychiatrists usually have a paternal/maternal thing gong on, even more so than regular doctors: they are more or less authoritarian guardians of current government/the elites who must subdue those who cannot adopt to the system. A revolution might produce a civilization in which those who end up in psychiatric offices are better off, but this must of course always be resisted by those in power.
that's not science thats grade school thinking

people feel better much often after having freudian psychoanalisis, yet people think its not real.

if you cant pinpoint the exact cause of why it works, why is it any different?

at least with psychoanalisis you know theres no chemical that kills your boner

>>11664160
The drugs are obviously intended for people with the most fucked up brains. The problem is, the drugs are being handed out like candy.

>>11664196
>ven though they're well aware antidepressants don't work.

worked for me and many other people, they just don't work every time or perfectly, but better than placebo on average

what is it with you pseuds and your inability to recognize nuance and go beyond black or white thinking?

>>11664314
The placebo effect is real and can be very powerful. To say a treatment works no better than placebo is not to say the treatment doesn't work at all.

>>11664314
It's more like the drugs make people worse off, or even cause the illness in the first place, but their refusal to take the drugs is a symptom of their ilness and told to keep taking the drugs.

>>11664328
>better than placebo on average
a hug works much better than placebo on average.

so does counseling without drugs

none of those can cause your dick to fall off

>>11664314
It's more like the drugs make people worse off, or even cause the illness in the first place, but their refusal to take the drugs is said to be a symptom of their ilness and told to keep taking the drugs.
The pro psychiatry propaganda even got into movies, the movie about Nash was changed to make him cured by drugs, contrary to the real events

>>11664328
The verdict is in on antidepressants. There's really no debate anymore. They don't work. The idea that depression is caused by a neurotransmitter imbalance is outdated popsci.

>feel a bit shit
>get prescribed anti-depressants
>become suicidal
thanks guys

>>11664160
>they cant really measure chemicals in the brain right
look into positron emission tomography
also, take your meds

>>11664342
Your point? A hug or counseling are indeed good ways to treat some cases of depression and should be tried. Unfortunately some cases only respond to drugs.

>>11664349
this is why im afraid of going to a psychiatrist now. Right now im kinda depressed and cant hold a job because of my extreme sadness and insomnia because of the shit life i had to had.

But im legit afraid that if i go to a psychiatrist and i start taking the pills he will have the power to make me go to an insane asylum because of the shit that hte pills did to me.

im even legit concerned that being confronted with a crazy personw hos actually much more educated than him and is destroying him with actual arguments he might even just send me to the insane asylum out of spite

>>11664355
Complete bullshit. They work better than placebo.

>>11664372
>Right now im kinda depressed and cant hold a job because of my extreme sadness and insomnia because of the shit life i had to had.

Do you have depression because of a shit life? Then drugs are not for you. Drugs should mostly be used for people who are depressed without any external reason.

>>11664370
>Unfortunately some cases only respond to drugs.

and im sure they tried a loving family and or sane freudian therapy thats based on treating the patient like a human being before?

nah, like always they just go straight to poisoning people with their shit

>>11664378
>Drugs should mostly be used for people who are depressed without any external reason.
there is no such thing.


all those stories about rich people who go crazy is because rich people can be some of the most fucked up sexually repressed sadistic torturing assholes while expertly keeping a facade of normalcy to the outside.

>>11664349
False. Although I'm neuro, I had my fair amount of patients during Psy rotation.
People get there fucked: Depression, anxiety, panic disorder, etc..
People do get better using medication. Depending on the disease, quite a few can stop the medication chronically and resort to SOS or no usage at all.
That's not the case for Schizos and other disorders though.

>>11664386
Fuck you.

>>11664392

>>11664382
>>11664385
>hurr durr depression does not exist, just stop being sad dude

You are a total retard who likely believes brain is a special magical thing that is separate from the body and cannot malfunction on it's own. Back in the real world, many people do become depressed and very sad with no external reason, and that is the very definition of a major depressive disorder.

>>11664386
>People do get better using medication.
what does get better mean? they tell you they are better during the few sessions? have you ever went with them to a bar? do you follow them trough the years?

how long does it take them to get better? long enough thatn any fucking else could have been the cause of their improvement i fucking bet

>>11664395
im sure the "real world" is what you learned from being incestuosly closed up in a small academic circle all of your fucking life and rereading the same books you read in your shitty college.

protip: real world, IS the real world.

i know one from oen of my trips around the world in whcih i talked with workers, poor people, artists, madmen, politicians, policemen, vagrants, hookers,

than you could ever hope to learn from the well crafted lies you contently gobble from the anus of 1.000.000 college books

>>11664386
>People do get better using medication
people also get better while wearing a shirt, doesnt mean it was the shirt that cured them.
thanks for quickly illustrating how little psychiatrists know about even basic science and logic

>>11664397
People stop thinking about killing themselves everyday, they get out of the bed and take fucking showers, they become able to get out their houses, they stop crying everyday for no reason, they stop having to open/close the refrigerator door 7 times, they become able to make new friends, they become able to hmm well.. sleep.....
Amongst other things....
Timewise, it's usually after a few months. Exception are benzos, which have results quite early.

>>11664417
Do you really think that "wearing a shirt" would not be removed as confounding variable, if someone retarded enough though it might alter outcome??

>>11664437
I don't think he has any idea how scientific studies work, much less what a confounding variable is.

>>11664423
>People stop thinking about killing themselves everyday, they get out of the bed and take fucking showers, they become able to get out their houses, they stop crying everyday for no reason, they stop having to open/close the refrigerator door 7 times, they become able to make new friends, they become able to hmm well.. sleep.....

i was unable to do most of those things after a freudian therapist made me confront deep traumas, he told me to never go near a psychiatrist if i wanted to keep my advances.

now i cant keep going because of money

but i achieved all of that without losing use of my dick, if i had went to a psycho i would be another statistics for penis killing pills

>>11664437
You've just proven his point...

>>11664160
How do they know this? Mostly experimentation with different chemicals and neurotransmitters and quantifying the response in some way, say fMRI as an example to see which parts of the brain have increased activity. This is just one way to quantify.

Then next two are inferred questions to your statements.

How do we know they work? Clinical trials.

Is there room to improve on chemical dosing schedules and chemical structures to give better results with less side-effects and not seem so hack-ish? yes

>>11664543
but the application on individuals is super fucky

i went to a psychiatrist , explained to him why i was sad and he prescribed me clonazepam...
just like that

then i went to another one and he said i needed more excersise

neither of them had no fucking way of knowing even basic shit about me much less the chemical composition of my brain.

and even then, those fuckers think they can know your life for talking a bit with you for a while. what if people lie?

surely no one, particuarly people with mental illness, would lie.

to deduce what chemicals your brain is lacking from chatting with you 30 minutes every month or two is an incredibly retarded proposal

>>11664554
It is. The only solution, right now, is to find one that does gene testing for not only metabolic enzymes, but also neurotransmitter receptors, the actual targets of the drugs. A lot will do the metabolic tests to see if you can metabolize the drugs. I don't know of many that will do the NTR panel. Most insurances can help with the costs if you are in the states.

>>11664602
ill take my chances with freudian/lacanian psychoanalysis, and if that doesnt work ill try something even more subjective, maybe roll a dice and try some new age bullcrap.

better than you fuckers playing mad doctor

>>11664196
Do you mean that neurochemicals alone have been ruled out as the cause of depression, or neurochemicals have been shown to have no effect on depression? Because if it's the former, like most psychological conditions, that doesn't exactly refute the need for psychiatry.

>>11664554
>anecdotal evidence

Maybe you had a bad experience with a psychiatrist, but many other people do not. Stop trying to generalize your own case for everyone else.

>>11664554
psychiatrist are often just doctors playing as neuropsychologist

allaying symptoms doesn't even address the causes.
"chemical imbalance" is a marketing phrase.
There is always a logical or emotional etiology for depression.

>>11664777
youre right on that one, but there are many studies showing how other stuff is much more effective at treating depression, for example, drugs that dont generate revenue for pharmaceutical companies
or yes
hugs
or coming from a nice (nice not rich family)

also muh anecdotal evidence is a way for science enthusiasts to think they have the absolute truth. papers can be faked to hell to say whatever you wish them to say


also, psychiatrist admited to fucking up tons of people by careless use of psychiatritc substances in the 1900 because of their scientific studies

in 1950 they claimed that the 1900 was wrong but now they totally have it right, fucked people right up again

in the 1970s they changed their way of thinking again, dont worry, we ruined tons of people in the 1950s but now the science is for real. TRUST US!!!

and now its happening all over again, there are new "harmless" drugs on the market.

take ambien for instance, i know a guy that took it once and woke up in a police station not remembering he had woken up in the middle of the night and walked down the street to yell at children, yeah i know anecdotal evidence, but its a sleeping pill even a low chance of this is not acceptable. I later took a look at the paper that comes with the medication the side effects they dare to admit are already a trainwreck.


Psychiatry is a sadistic tradition of fucking people up with drugs for the power high that you get because """science""" the official religion says you have the ultimate truth.


science is great for general medicine and all, for the mind its fucking useless, you need something much closer to art.

>>11664751
Neurochemicals have been shown to have no effect on depression. You can take a healthy non-depressed person and induce a neurochemical imbalance of the kind thought to be associated with depression and it has no effect on their chance of developing depression.

>>11664976
do you evidence for this? as neurochemical imbalances changed in the extreme sense certainly have an effect on mood. And for other psychological conditions that cenario does play out, where hallucinations in schizophrenia is heavily caused by a too much dopamine, and this can be replicated non-schizophrenic individuals. Such as when patients with parkinson take dopamine rising medication they can experience hallucinatory effect.

>>11665152
do you have*

>>11664837
this guy wrote it in a kinds schizo way but he's right, every 20-30 years psychiatrists inventa new drug which they swear is totally safe, fuck up a ton of people and then after pharma has made a ton of money they move on to a new one

>>11665171
The next sexy trend will center around treatments affecting the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. I can't wait to see the side effects from that drug.

>>11665152
Amphetamine psychosis seems to be indistinguishable from schizophrenia. Although it's not entirely clear the same mechanism is at play in schizophrenic patients, the dopamine model is at least a plausible theory. The same cannot be said for the monamine hypothesis of depression.

>>11665171
>>11664837

this, psychiatrist at one point gave morphine to babies and heroin to the general public, SWEARING it was ok.

in the 1950s they sold stuff that was basically amphetamines, you can still get it for "weight loss "

>>11664160
>they cant really measure chemicals in the brain right?

Dont be so sure . For example doctors can measure level of prolactin, which is inversely proportional to dopamine levels. If you have a high level of prolactin in your body, you also have a low level of dopamine, if you have a low level of prolactin, you also have a high level of dopamine. I cannot comment on the possibility of measuring the amount of other neurotransmitters, but certainly if not now, there will be some methods to measure the amount of ALL neurotransmitters in the body in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitter

>>11665292
yeah but they dont like, measure your brain chemicals before giving you pills.

they just go,mmm so you SAY youre sad in these 30 minute interviews were having every couple of months?

OK THEN THAT LETS ME KNOW EXACTLY THE CHEMICAL THAT IS LACKING IN YOUR BRAIN

absolute bullshit

>>11665306
Fact that most of psychiatrists are ignorants or even idiots , doesnt mean that psychiatry is bullshit.

>yeah but they dont like, measure your brain chemicals before giving you pills.

>they just go,mmm so you SAY youre sad in >these 30 minute interviews were having every >couple of months?

Just FIND BETTER psychiatrists . Have you heard about Sturgeon's law ? Its example of this in real life : 10% of psychiatrists are good and helpful experts in treating of human brains , meanwhile 90% of psychiatrists are useless .

"Sturgeon's law (or Sturgeon's revelation), is an adage that states that "90% of everything is crap." The adage was coined by Theodore Sturgeon, an American science fiction author and critic. The adage was inspired by Sturgeon's observation while science fiction was often derided for its low quality by critics, the majority of examples of works in other fields could equally be seen to be of low quality, and science fiction was thus no different in that regard from other art."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law

>>11666896
That's such fucking bullshit. Of course you attack the crap; no respectable field would need outside criticism to get rid of the crap.

I took a relatively mild anti-depressant and it definetely made me better. My dick died, though. I haven't used them in 4 years and my emotional control/mood is generally much better.

>>11666986
>inb4 placebo
No.