/sci/ - Science & Math

You cannot tell appart sufficiently advanced civilizations from the very laws of nature.

Why would a type iii civ bother contacting us? They might send drones or whatever to observer like on natgeo for entertainment.
Conversely, how would we go about detecting them ourselves?

>>11641460
We would be able to easily see irregularities in the light emitted from such colonized galaxies.

>>11641434
>Fermi Paradox
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

>>11641515
Not if the highly advanced civ doesn't want us to see, they can easily hide their tracks

>>11641434
The reason we haven't detected any ayys and none have come to us, is because THE VAST majority of life is found on planets orbiting within the plasma sheaths of their parent brown dwarf stars. Earth, we, we are a space oddity, life existing on a planet the way it does here, around a "main sequence" star is exceedingly rare and demands a very unique set of events to occur before it can become a reality.

If you travelled to hundreds of thousands or even millions of "main sequence" stars similar to our Sun, and checked the orbiting planets for life, you'd most likely not find any. And if you went and checked out a lots of brown dwarf stars, you wouldn't be able to see any life either, because you wouldn't be able to see through the thick intensely glowing plasma sheaths. Nor would your radio waves or other scanning methods be useful. Most likely your ship wouldn't be able to penetrate through the sheath either without getting fucked up.

To put it simply, the reason we don't see aliens is because they're out of sight from us. And we're out of sight from them. Everyone's hiding from each other, iwithin their own little cosmic wombs like chickens inside eggs. We could find aliens who are in the same situation as us; being on a planet orbiting a "main sequence star", but due to life existing under such an arrangement requiring an very specific chain of events to occur first, it makes it extremely unlikely for the inhabitants of two such planets to ever detect each other.


To help you understand further, more in-depth, as to why we haven't detected any aliens and why they (most likely) haven't detected us, see (note the timestamps):

https://youtu.be/mINsiT70OHE?t=1h12m52s
And more in-depth: https://youtu.be/Kff_ytg0-8w?t=7m31s

>>11641515
Yes, just like we should be able to detect advanced stealth aircraft simply because they're advanced.

>>11641434
I think you are overestimating the number of species that would make it to type III

>>11641602

electric universe is bunk and nobody here is watch ~2 hours of lectures to decide otherwise. For being so "simple", it takes far more time to explain how EU relates to what you are saying then General Realitvity.

>>11641434
>If there is ANY life similar to ours then it is almost certainly outside of our cosmic horizon
uhh that really doesn't follow from your argument. We are not a type III civilization and we would be unlikely to detect a civilization with the same technology as Earth if we were outside the range of radio broadcasts which don't travel that far anyway. AT MOST we could detect such a civilization 10s of light-years away.

Your argument only shows that type III civilizations are either extremely rare or employ technology to mask their signatures, perhaps as to conceal themselves from other life or from enemy factions of the same species. Supposing type III civilizations are very rare this would hardly be surprising given the incomprehensibly massive undertakings required to become a type III civilization over a period of tens to hundreds of thousands of years

>>11641434
>None of them have been observed to exhibit signs of galaxy-wide Type III colonization.
What do you mean?

Remember, it takes just one. Why dont we see a single one?

>>11641434
They’re already here but the government managed to cover up its modem existence, for the most part.

>>11642091

Great filter.

>>11641434
Type 3 is stupid and is human materialism applied on an alien cosmos on a grotesque scale.

This is just like my rock paradox.

There are thousands of rocks, but I havent seen a single one spontaneously turn into a lizard. It really is odd, considering that lizards exist and all.

>>11642093

>>>/x/

>>11642110
It’s only logical they would find us first. The Cold War demanded it be hidden.

>>11642104

False comparison. We know rocks dont turn into lizards, but stars spawn civilizations, since we exist.

>>11641759

>Supposing type III civilizations are very rare this would hardly be surprising given the incomprehensibly massive undertakings required to become a type III civilization over a period of tens to hundreds of thousands of years

Hundreds of thousands of years is nothing on a cosmic scale, the universe is billions of years old.

>>11641434
The Andromeda galaxy is about two and a half million light-years away from us.

Are we actually expecting a type 3 or even a type 2 civilization to be formed two and a half million years ago? It sounds in significant given the Earth is billions of years old, but I think that's also a factor.

>>11641567
>The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It is if you can demonstrate that you have looked hard enough to find any evidence that might exist.

>>11641571
>Not if the highly advanced civ doesn't want us to see, they can easily hide their tracks

The "Tracks" would be their energy consumption.

>>11641604
>Yes, just like we should be able to detect advanced stealth aircraft simply because they're advanced.

We can detect their airports and fuel usage easily. A bird can detect a city.

>>11642097
>Type 3 is stupid and is human materialism applied on an alien cosmos on a grotesque scale.

Every living thing on Earth reproduces and expands to fill any niche it can. That is an essential part of what life is. It makes sense therefore that if life ever escapes a planet, it would soon (2 million years) colonize every planet that they could make use of. They would be right here on Earth competing with us for resources.

>>11642124
my point being that it's not a "paradox" that there arent as many civs out there some people assume.

You can't just assume some shit, note the discrepancy with your assumption and reality, and call it a paradox.

>None of them have been observed to exhibit signs of galaxy-wide Type III colonization.
How would you know what the signs of Type III civilization are?

>>11641434
Have you tried communicating with the bacteria that lived on your body your entire life there is billions of them and you don't know their names.

Now apply that to space we occupy, perhaps aliens that are capable of Type 3 phase out to the space that occupies outside of all dimensions and its to orgasmic to go back or want to communicate.

>>11642171
>Makes a enormous assumption
>gets butthurt about others doing the same
You are a retarded redditor

>>11642200
>Have you tried communicating with the bacteria that lived on your body your entire life there is billions of them and you don't know their names.

I've done plenty of things to them that they "understand" and react to. The Fermi paradox says that they should be living on Earth and building cities, not trying to talk to us. (They certainly have no need to hide from us.)

>>11642171
>my point being that it's not a "paradox" that there arent as many civs out there some people assume.

It's a paradox because what we know about life over time does not match what we can see going on in the universe. So we resolve the discrepancy with the great filter theory. Three option:

1) Life or intelligence is spectacularly unlikely to happen. (This is the hopeful possibility: Filter is behind us.)

2) Life or intelligence always destroys itself before escaping its planet. (Filter is ahead of us.)

3) There is a better method of expansion than space travel, such as traveling to other dimensions. (My idea. Filter is to one side of us.)

>>11642202
did you think I actually thought rocks turn into lizards, or?

>>11642211
What is it that we know about life over time? I mean you can say that other solar systems have the same general makeup, but as you said there's the great filter which could just be the specific conditions, rare earth like OP said.

I just don't like attempted extrapolation from a single case to be called a paradox, any more than asking why there arent penguins in the sahara.

>>11642131
The point was not that there wasn't enough time for it to occur, but that it makes it less likely to reach that stage, thus low cosmic density of type III doesn't necessarily mean there's no intelligent life about.

We have been looking for a very short time, with very arbitrary criteria... With very rudimentary sensors. Its possible life could be hiding deep within worlds that look mundane to us

Probably the case is we are lucky anon. You don’t feel lucky? We are just lucky we got to the current technological level we are now. Think about this there have been millions of years on earth and Only one branch of the evolution tree has created a couple species that have even kind of similar intelligence like us. Seems like it’s just not a common thing to gain intelligence like us. Seems like the most rational reason why.

>>11641515
why would there be irregularities in the light emitted from stars?

>>11641434
Our methods rely on detecting the tiniest of shifts in the light of stars to detect planets, then spectral-analyze them to determine if they have the base ingredients for life. That flawed method depends entirely on orbiting planets being at the right angle for detection. If said star system's planets orbit perpendicularly to our vantage point, then we're not gonna see them.

They also rely on detecting radio and other artificial waves sent out a long time ago to reach us. That could take centuries, and relies on other civilizations being more advanced than us to develop the right tech centuries before we did. What if they're on the same technological level or early industrial, and are just now developing said tech?

OP please reply to this>>11642074

>>11642334
>You don’t feel lucky?
Obviously a misquote. Punk.

>>11642581
Not OP. But can answer. Type 3 colonialism is the same as what is called 'neocolonialism' by Sartre and Chomsky. See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism
The signs of it are "a relationship of dependence, subservience, or financial obligation towards the neocolonialist nation".
OP is right in stating that we are not observing such signs.

>>11642226
>What is it that we know about life over time?
What I just wrote. Read before complaining.

>rocks turn into lizards
>penguins in the sahara.

Those aren't paradoxes because we have no reason to think those things would happen. We DO have reasons to think that life would act like life always does. You are basically arguing that nothing is knowable.

>>11643028
>life would act like life always does.
To be fair you have a sample size of one.
Could be that the universe is absolutely lousy with life but were such outliers that we might not even recognize it.

>>11641567
t. brainlet

The amount of cope is palpable.
"Type 3 civilizations" AREN'T POSSIBLE. For whatever reason, the actual act of engineering the technology to render it possible is forever out of reach for any civilization. Artificial super intelligence obviously doesn't help at all either.

Brainlet here

When were looking at other galaxies and stars, aren't we seeing what they looked like millions of years ago?

Shouldn't that matter in terms of intelligent like spawning or that margin too small to matter.

I think its possible that we are just an early civilization and other species haven't caught up yet

>>11641434
I'm sure that non-intelligent life should be all over the universe, even if its life similar to that of early Earth life.

>>11643135
yeah it doesn't matter much. The universe has existed for billions of years, which is plenty of time for life to evolve and type II and III civilizations to establish even if you take off a relatively small amount of time like a few million years

>>11643146
What if intelligent life only exists in a short window before it is killed off or kills itself off?

>>11643149
It reduces time window in which we could detect them, which means we would detect a lower density of intelligent life in the universe. That said, we might expect a type II or III civilization to have left behind mega-structures like Dyson spheres that persist for millions of years after their extinction. Currently we're only aware of one star with unusual properties consistent with being an alien mega structure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabby%27s_Star).). Unfortunately, there are several less exciting astrophysical explanations for this star's properties, but even if it was a dyson sphere one star out of however many hundreds of billions would put a very very low density on type II civilizations

>ywn have alien gf

the reason is a planet like Earth is rare.

>>11642165
>A bird can detect a city
Also bird doesnt understand what city is

>but but what if aliens don't...

It only takes one race interested in space travel and the universe would be full with other life already.

>>11641571
they could even be space dinosaur civs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj5A0rKI0Ag

>>11641434
>There are 30 or so galaxies in our local group. None of them have been observed to exhibit signs of galaxy-wide Type III colonization.

You seem to think that we can observe shit.

ProTip: We can't.

>>11641434
>Any way you look at it, we should have detected a Type 3 civilization in our local group by now.
>by now
Unclear just "when" are you referring to. What we see from the closest galaxy is light from 250,000 years ago. How are you so sure that if something is there right now we would've detected it? I can't think of one way that could even be possible.

>>11641434
Now what if of those 10 billion, only 1 billion are actually habitable (considering more than distance from star matter), and consider if .01% instead of .1% of habitable planets have life, and only .01% instead of .1% have advanced civilization, and only .01% have type 3, then that's approximately 0.3 type 3 civilizations with numbers equally valid and retardedly randomly picked as yours, and what if that 0.3 decided to hide themselves from us RETARDED FUCKTARD DUMBFUCK?

>>11642165
>The "Tracks" would be their energy consumption.
Not if the highly advanced civ doesn't want us to see, they can easily hide their tracks

>>11643209
>It only takes one race interested in space travel

humans are kinda interested in space travel

are humans everywhere?

The thing is that just 0.01% of such planets harbor life, that's 30 million planets with life on them. Only 0.01% of life-bearing planets develop intelligence, then we have 3000 planets with civilizations like ours. Of those, only 0.01% can reach Type 3. Therefore, there is a chance that 2 out 3 groups don't harbor Type 3 civilizations and not having detected one in our local group means absolutely nothing.

See? I can also pull statistics out of my ass to arrive at conclusions that fit my bias.

>>11643367
>not having detected one in our local group means absolutely nothing

You are right, it means nothing. But more because we have no means whatsover to detect anything apart from a fucking supernova over these distances.

>>11643385
Since a Type 3 civ is supposed to suck up the energy of their entire galaxy, I'm guessing we would notice if one was around. In any case, I really wasn't as concerned with the actual subject of debate as I was with the sheer stupidity of OP's thought process. I don't know why but people using flawed logic makes me angry.

>>11642368
stars are your number 1 pit stops for energy production in the universe and a Type III would be letting all their stars go to waste if they didn't surround them with something like a Dyson Swarm to soak up all that free juice. These satellites, space colonies, whatever they are would cause the luminosity of the star to visibly diminish from our perspective

>>11641434
We are the only intelligent life forms in the observable universe, possible the entire universe
>but muh Drake Equation
>but muh billions and billions
>but muh carl saggin
Abiogenesis is an extremely rare natural phenomenon. I see zero evidence aliens exist and I'm an atheist. How does our existence and the universe being real real big mean aliens exist. Hardcore pseudo-science happening

>>11643487
>Abiogenesis is an extremely rare natural phenomenon.

Okay, do you have any evidence that abiogenesis happened on earth?

https://earthsky.org/space/does-organic-material-in-comets-predate-our-solar-system

>>11643964
>The sorts of organic molecules found in this comet and others have long been proposed by scientists as possible building blocks for life on Earth
Do YOU think this is any sort of evidence for your point? This is a prediction within a prediction. It's as much of a guess as abiogenesis.

>>11641602
>t. schizo

>>11643964
I guess you are implying earth was seeded by extraterrestrials or a god. Which explains nothing and only shifts the genesis question back onto other beings in the universe. I think abiogenesis happened on Earth but it is an extremely unlikely thing to happen. I do not evidence of this one way or another though, just what I think

>>11643487
Lufe could easily be pissible in mist gas giabts, by burning CO2 and hydrogen to methane.

>>11643487
Life could easily be possible inside most gas giants, by burning CO2 and hydrogen to methane.

An outbreak of distance has the entire universe quarentined until a vaccine which injects a little distance in local civilizations is created so we can become aclimated to be able to venture out during the current distance pandemic.

Or maybe sexual species regress into their own technological vr fantasy worlds that can be sustained with minimal power for millenniums to engorge in selfish cat girl orgies and forget the urges or necessity to explore. Maybe exploration dies off as a survival skill and forgotten so species go extinct with their stars because they literally forget survival can be an option after a million years of living from free sun energy

Because we know about famine and war and racism and other catastrophes, we still find value in exploring so we project that aliens have the same values, but even today, people don't even want to venture out of there own house. Some millennials haven't gotten a driver's license, some won't go into stores pre pandemic already, and instacart will be the new norm for the next generation. I would not be surprised if in 50 years newborns will never leave their home city or value travel, only 30 years ago my parents dream was to go to the Grand canyon, I flew it virtually on the computer and wasn't impressed, and overheard a teenager say they would rather stay home than get a free pizza being given away down the street.The us stopped funding spacecraft, maybe space isn't as important to explore for aliens as maybe microbial space. We already know quantum space has spooky movement and we can make crazy nano tech, maybe aliens explore inward instread of outward

>>11644559

Since we don't know if abiogenesis actually happened on earth or not, you have no idea how rare it is. Or how rare it needs to be for that matter.

Maybe it happen only once 10 billion years ago. And then spread throughout the universe via comets.

Abiogenenis being a rare event solves nothing if we don't know how likely it is that life spreads from one celestial body to others.

>>11641434
why did you have to use such an unsettling picture

>pseuds at it again
Earth is litetarally in the 8% of the oldest habitable planets in the entire universe. Couple that with the fact that we have no idea how long it takes for intelligent life to form on average and it makes any serious speculation about the presence of extraterrestial life retarded.

>>11646396

>implying Fermi was a pseud

Why do we even want to discover other life? The only logic option after discovering other intelligent life is space genocide.

>>11641434
Some fucker in high school just discovered a planet the other day.
Also light has a speed so what we're seeing in the night sky is what they were millions of years ago.

>>11641434
There are no other planets but Earth and Moon, what astronomers see are reflections of Sun-Earth-Moon system in ether. There are other civilizations, but they come from other-dimensional Earth.

is fermi confirmed alien?

>>11641434
What a meme. We simply lack the technology. We can't even rule out the possibility of simple life on the moons of the planets of our own solar system.

There could be another civilization with the exact same technological level as us on promixa b, (closest planet), and we have no way of knowing. Our technological capabilities in regards to space exploration are a joke. We make wild speculations based on meme human technology like dyson spheres, and radio contact. The simple answer to this paradox is we dont have the technology, yet.

>>11643439
This is the issue, it assumes they would need to consume this much energy, based on current human technology. The entire paradox uses meme human tech like Dyson spheres, etc as its basis. It's a joke.

>>11643128
Or we are the product of a Type 3 but for some awful reason, it can't get back to us/wants us to be alone for a while/practices extremely limited interference to keep us from blowing ourselves up. We are likely much rarer than we realize but in the grand scheme of things we are probably not alone.

>>11643265
so how is it that a huge technologically sophisticated type iii civilization leaves no heat signatures? figured out how to do all that work outside the domain of thermodynamics?

>>11641434
or, and bare with me here, our understanding of physics is sufficient to confirm that type III civs cannot exist.
Talk science or fuck off to /x/, where you schizos belong.

>>11641434
inverse square law
anything you hope to detect becomes noise

>>11647000
you must be a joy at parties anon

How long has the solar sytem been around? Some dozen billion years, give or take? The universe not much older. Now compare that to the life expectancy of the universe. What, some 10^21 years or something like that? We're just at the stage where the universe is coming out of mom's vagina, and all those ayy civilizations that may be out there probably don't even have a galaxy to be a part of yet.

>>11641434
Why do youi think advanced civs stay under the open sky? They build a house, an enclosure or whatever you want to visualize around their claimed area in space - dark matter.

>>11641434
>If just 0.1% of said planets harbor life, that's 300 million
hurr durr numbors I pullu from assus.
>If just 0.1% of life-bearing planets develop intelligent and technological societies then there should be around 300,000 planets with civilizations like ours.
mom mom look at these numbers I pulled from thin air.
>If just 0.1% of said planets with civilizations like ours reach the Type 3 stage then that's 300 civilizations with Type 3, galaxy-colonizing capabilities
im so big smartu, because of my shitty calculations, the universe should be filled with alot of big green smartypants aliens.
im so smart guys look aliens
t. OP

>>11647023
I don’t go to parties.

>>11647033
>How long has the solar sytem been around?
depends on where you start to count, but between 4.5 and 5 billion years is a solid estimate.
The age of the universe is about 13.8 billion years, so the sun is a later generation star.
This hasn’t really anything to do with your point, tho.

>>11646905
t. pseud.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

>>11641434
Why? Why are we so lucky?

>>11647328
Nothing he said is wrong

>>11642321
this, how has nobody realized that our instruments are still juvenile

>>11641434
brainful post

>>11642434
this, everyone ITT acts like we have the best probing methods ever when they are in fact still infantile

>>11642091
>Remember, it takes just one. Why dont we see a single one?
This

>>11643146
>it doesn't matter much

Are you retarded? We don't ever see the present state of a planet unless we are right there infront of it, their light taking millions of years to reach us matters ...

>>11641434
Intelligence affects 0.1% of the planets in the universe. A test for it is 99% accurate. You test positive. What's the chance you are actually intelligent?

>>11647033
>We're just at the stage where the universe is coming out of mom's vagina, and all those ayy civilizations that may be out there probably don't even have a galaxy to be a part of yet.

Nope.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/universe-making-stars/

>>11647433
It does not matter because the universe is billions of years old, so time differences on the order of million years are not significant.

>>11646990
We have shit instruments

>>11647328
pot calling the nigger black

>>11647444
but they literally are, its MILLIONS of years.

>>11641434
Here's your Type III civilization

Hoag's Object is a non-typical galaxy of the type known as a ring galaxy.[4] The galaxy is named after Arthur Hoag who discovered it in 1950 and identified it as either a planetary nebula or a peculiar galaxy[5] with eight billion stars, spanning roughly 100,000 light years

Many of the details of the galaxy remain a mystery, foremost of which is how it formed. So-called "classic" ring galaxies are generally formed by the collision of a small galaxy with a larger disk-shaped galaxy. This collision produces a density wave in the disk that leads to a characteristic ring-like appearance. Such an event would have happened at least 2–3 billion years in the past,[12] and may have resembled the processes that form polar-ring galaxies. However, there is no sign of any second galaxy that would have acted as the "bullet", and the likely older core of Hoag's Object has a very low velocity relative to the ring, making the typical formation hypothesis quite unlikely

>>11647492
again, not significant on cosmic timescales at all

>>11647485
our instruments are more than good enough to detect any civilization that Dyson swarms significant number of stars in the galaxy

>>11647404
Unless you think type III civilizations somehow found a way to violate basic laws of thermodynamics and somehow "stealth" the fact that they are harvesting the power of an entire galaxy, then you are a mouth breathing pseud just like >>11646905.

>>11641434

type 3 civs are all ais hiding inside computronium black holes. that's probably what dark matter is.

>>11647522
Cope, who are they hiding from? Why haven't we seen these adversaries

>>11647520
>Dyson

fuck off with this meme

>guys, let us build a sphere around our sun and live on the inside trapping all of the sun's radiation and emitted particles forever
>what could possibly go wrong?

How an actual scientist ever came up with this idea, will forever boggle my mind.

And you idiots never stop parroting it, because you can't think for yourself beyond. "Oh shit, that sounds cool."

>>11643179
Why live?

>>11641434
Dude. What in the world makes you think such a civilization could not hide itself and equally so what makes you think we have even the slightest clue what to look for? (Or even the ability to look?)
Personally I envision more advanced ayys putting up big filters around systems with developing species. They wont detect shit until they advance enough to escape or bypass the filter. By filter I mean artificial energy signals aka signs of life.

>>11647000
The old "everything I don't understand is x/file schizobabble" argument. You lack vision, imagination and wonder. A true pseud.

>>11647404
there is no viable form of communication besides em fields according to the standard model. And even tho we know for a fact that it’s incorrect in some areas, we also know that there is no groundbreaking physics waiting for us like ftl communication.

>>11647425
provide any way we could increase detection by orders of magnitude.
Pro tip: you can’t. The inverse square law is tied to the universe.

>>11641434
Before I read the comments, I'm assuming some retards are posting shit like "LIFE COULD BE TOTALLY DIFFERENT" or "THEY'VE REACHED ENLIGHTMENT".
I totally agree with you that there aren't any technological civilisations anywhere nearby (and by that I mean within severel hundred million lightyears).
It takes an extremely stable and moderately long living star in an extremely calm region in the galaxy to even give a planet a chance to form life. The planet itself must be in the right distance at a stable orbit, can't be too small or too big, must have tectonic activity and must be have oceans but they can't be totally covered by them.
As for life itself, we don't know how likely it is for it to form, nor to evolve to more complex life.
Without the asteroid 65 million years ago, technological intelligence would have never formed on this planet.

>>11641571
No they can't. It's physically impossible.
>inb4 magic
Yeah no

>>11641759
>or employ technology to mask their signatures, perhaps as to conceal themselves from other life or from enemy factions of the same species.
Once you've reached K3, you don't need to hide from anything. Any war effort would be a waste of resources. And it's not like you can hide.

>>11642097
Why do animals overfeed given the chance? Are they materialistic?
>>11642188
Shitload of excess heat from large-scale energy consumption. Alternatively, a flaring up of stars because they are being destroyed in order to preserve the hydrogen for longevity.
>>11642200
DUDE GODS LMAO
>>11642321
We're talking about things more advanced than us. Probability favors things far more advanced or far less advanced than us.
>>11642434
>>11647425
>>11647910
We can detect stars, even far away. We can detect galaxies, even more far away. If these objects in space suddenly give off signatures they are not supposed to, that's a dead-giveaway, no matter the distance.
>>11643135
The universe is 14 billion years old. The first galaxies formed like a billion years after that. There were enough elements around for life to form like 10 billion years ago.

>>11643328
Wow dude it's like the universe is only 100 years old.
In some decades, the first asteroids will be mined. Given more time, even more of space will be explored and used for its materials.

>>11642074
Fuck, is that a Dyson ring???

>>11646331
he cute

>>11647966
>If these objects in space suddenly give off signatures they are not supposed to, that's a dead-giveaway, no matter the distance.

Imagine thinking we have even the slightest clue what they are "supposed to do".

If you keep up with astronomy news you would know that whenever weird shit is detected scientists basically go
>more research is needed
>we have to adjust our assumptions about how this works

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUkKeCQ241A

>>11642165
>Every living thing on Earth reproduces and expands to fill any niche it can. That is an essential part of what life is. It makes sense therefore that if life ever escapes a planet, it would soon (2 million years) colonize every planet that they could make use of. They would be right here on Earth competing with us for resources.

What if the only civilizations that survive their own self-destructive tendencies are the ones that have some kind of awakening and see past the need to expand and compete with other life forms for resources. In other words, what if staying on your own planet and minding your own business is the only way to survive the adolescence of your species?

>>11647435
Does not compute.
What's the probability of a given individual in a knowingly intelligence bearing planet be actually intelligent?

>>11647710
This. These idiots are basing their paradoxes on meme human technology. Imagine trying to build a clunky structure around a star, when you can just create more stars. That's how technologically advanced a true type iii civilization would be. Even the whole Kardashev scale of types is based on more human tech speculation. It's a joke.

Our search area has been hilariously small as well, it's like taking a cup of seawater and claiming dolphins dont exist. You can prove bacteria exists in that cup of seawater though, and we could prove the same by simply exploring and sampling all the moons in our solar system. Life could be everywhere. We can't even eliminate that possibility yet, because our current tech is such a joke.

>>11647656
Who knows, maybe in their pocket black hole universes they can escape entropy or be omnipotent. Maybe expanding in this limited reality is pointless

>>11648137
This. Why would I create a huge structure to harvest radiation from a star if I can use matter-antimatter annihilation?

>>11648045
>have some kind of awakening and see past the need to expand and compete with other life forms for resources.
The universe does not have infinite resources. If you want to survive, you have to keep all the resources to yourself. Otherwise you die.
Life has evolved in a way to gather all possible resources as the life forms that didn't quickly died billions of years ago.

>>11648163
Absolute brainlet. Antimatter creation requires more energy than it produces. There are no natural antimatter sources.

>>11647910
Protip: Using our sun as a gravitational lens

It would require a telescope 4x further out than Voyager, but it would allow us to see surface level details of planets 10, 20, 30 light years away. This would be the first true way we could detect other civilizations, we already have the technology too. It would take some time though.

>>11647966
>There were enough elements around for life to form like 10 billion years ago.
no there werent. it was just lead and hydrogen back then. it took like 4 billion years of super novas to create enough complex elements to sustain life as we know it on earth.

>>11648181
Bananas would like to talk to you about this

>>11648213
>no there werent. it was just lead and hydrogen back then.
The first formed stars were gigantic and their hypernovas created lots of heavy elements.
>it took like 4 billion years of super novas to create enough complex elements to sustain life as we know it on earth.
Nope. Very big stars have a lifetime of around one million years and they create lots of heavy elements.

>>11647828
Science is about vision, imagination, or wonder. Science is purely mathematical and rigid. There is no maybe in science. Only yes or no. Science is totally binary and black and white and should always be taken at face value.

All of the best scientists known to man have always essentially been human calculators.

>>11648208
well look at how fucked the JWST is and that's going out nowhere near as far as you're suggesting. it's too complex.

>>11641434
This notion that intelligence must ultimately colonize a galaxy is a very primitive human idea.
If you imagine what our future may be like, we will eventually end up as an "AI"
We wouldn't need to be any bigger than a tennis ball to hold all knowledge of the universe

>>11647518
You aren't getting it

>>11647520
yeah no, no they aren't, typical human overconfidence. Humble yourself ass faggot before i knock your teeth out

>>11647902
not with that attitude theres not

>>11648174
there are plenty of resources to go around, cooperation is the number 1 survival tactic

>>11643328
>are humans everywhere?

very soon (on cosmic timescales) we will be

>>11648137
>Imagine trying to build a clunky structure around a star, when you can just create more stars.

And then what do you do with those more stars? You still need to Dyson them up to collect their output.

>>11649719
JWST is fucked for political, not technical reasons

>>11641447
This. Anything past Type-II would be undetectable by a civilization sub Type-I. That's probably what Dark Energy and matter are desu.

>>11647936
yeah because weve figured it all out and nothing can get past us lol

>>11641434
the light we see from distant galaxies is millions if not billions of years old. if there was a civilization there now, we wouldnt be able to see it because we can only see the past and not the present

>>11650985
Our local galaxy group is only 9 MLY in diameter. That is not a significant scale in cosmic time.

>>11641434
DARK FOREST

>>11649958
If our own technology proves anything, is that, it gets smaller, and more efficient. Now apply that to augmented humans and future reality. The entire fermi paradox is based on primitive human understanding of technology and speculation.

>>11650041
Says who? This is comedy. If you asked humans 150 years ago what they would like, they wouldve told you a faster horse. Our current technological level is laughable. For us to speculate or even claim a certain type of technology would have to be used by an advanced species is retard tier. Congratulations on being a complete idiot who lacks vision.

>>11641602
this cringe bullshit is what really fucks up some important topics that EU raises around plasma. The EU will never be taken seriously with Saturn being a brown dwarf utter crap.

>>11642074
noice, there are 2 in the same photo as well

>>11641434
Why do we care so much about aliens anyway. Looking at the absurd coincidences that needed to happen to spawn life on earth, its not a stretch to say that sentience nn and of itself is very very rare. There are definitely other life forms out there, but no one seems to question that those lifeforms may never develop sentience and intelligence. There are too many factors to take into account to have a logical discussion about such a topic. Iftheres one anchor that holds all sentient life as one, its the natural laws of the universe. And other civilizations might even define those on absurdly different terms. Every civilization is different in form and history. If we want to really blow it up, the natural laws themselves might be pu upon us by lifeforms who have mastered the universe's laws and are beyond our comprehension, kinda like lovecraftian enteties. We are what we are, and I think rather than looking for others like us, we should marvel at our own ability to experience the small part of this massive massive universe. We should take joy in observing the natural laws that will far outlive anything thats living. And humble ourselves at the absolute scale of things out of our comprehension.

>>11641434

why the fuck would an alien civilization follow the kardashev scale anyway. that concept might be irrelevant as might be the concept of colonization of an entire galaxy or harvesting a sun for energy when you can use black holes

You know how when you go on a safari in Africa, the vehicles are covered in camo and natural scents to ward off animals?

The same goes for aliens. They don't want you to know they exist. They probably want to keep our section of the galaxy as quiet as they can so there's no way either of us stunt our growth.

It does make me wonder if aliens go on Safari tier trips to Earth or even make deals with world leaders like a Spaniard would make a deal with indigenous tribals.

Sentient life is probably extremely rare but not so rare it doesn't exist outside of Earth. It's very likely that there are other alien civilizations looking at Earth like an unhatched egg. Just waiting for it to get out of it's shell and escape the solar system.

That's assuming aliens are kind and peaceful though.

you guys realize that even if Aliens came to earth and exposed themselves, nobody would believe it anyway.

excuse me, but I got just the pic related for this thread

>>11647936
>be very far away
Done.

>>11650991
how do you even know that shit? how do you even know what a light year is? it's just shit people have told you, have you observed anything in your life that has proven the space bullshit? how do you even know the planets are what they say they are??

>>11652550
listen her, motherfucker. you know for a fact this isn't /x/. so don't spout your schizo bullshit at me and go post this in the correct board >>>/x/

>>11652550
Who Bro watch out for that edge. Are you a flat earther imbecile?

A light year is the distance light travels through space in 365 days or so. This is a layman definition.

There are things you can see for yourself about "space shit":

The phases of Venus. It goes through phases like the moon, but it always stays close to the sun as seen from Earth. You can see this yourself with a telescope.

Solar eclipse - rare, but having witnessed the last one, I suggest you try for the next one.

Lunar eclipse - happen about twice a year.

Look up at the sky every day at midnight and notice the constellations of the zodiac in the sky slowly rotate as the Earth goes around the Sun through the year.

The list goes on, but these are simple things you can see yourself that do not require intermediaries of information.

>>11652564
somebody just told what a star was, there is literally no proof at all the sun is what you are told it is.

>>11652550
Throw yourself off of a building to experiment if terminal velocity is real

>>11652591
no man, i feel like your broad knowledge of chemistry and physics is just too limited to understand that a star is just what you get when you have a LOT of atoms clumped up in a gravity well.

The theory about what makes a star is proved my a lot of different stuff - for example the frequency and wavelength of light (photons) that we detect, the orbits of other planets, etc. So far as anyone knows, the theory of "star" is correct.

Sure, there are lots of things even form our own sun we don't understand, like how the magnetism works to create sun spots and coronal ejections for example. but there are lots of theories in the race to being the correct one for that.

My point is that troglodites like you without the necessary base understanding of the universe have no standing to proclaim that the sun is not what I think it is.

>>go back to /x/

>>11652643
Never assume the science is settled. Science is never settled.

>>11643453
That's making a lot of assumptions that could be very wrong. For all we know an extremely advanced race could get their energy from the very atoms themselves and have no need of large inefficient fusion reactors. We have no idea of what's possible as a race we haven't even figured out the basics of physics. We don't even know what gravity is.

>>11646990
a type III civilization would be extremely efficient. Heat is a result of inefficiency.

>>11652649
No man, you don't get it.

The science of Chemistry and mechanics (newtonian and General relativity) is settled as far as their broad applications and theories go on our level of experiencing reality.

Sure, we may get a better understanding of underlying processes, but I think it's unlikely that we will disprove inertia, chemistry or gravity.

>>11652663
This guy gets it. Imagine being arrogant enough to think humans could even begin to understand technology on that level. The Fermi paradox begins and ends with human arrogance and ignorance.

Why would aliens build vast megastructures? Spinning space stations and O'Niell cylinders are about as crazy as I think any species would go. The idea of them wanting to harvest lal the energy of their star seems silly and absurd if they develop fusion and good solar-at some point the value of energy falls so low that continuing to expand is meaningless. We've seen a sharp decrease in fertility as wealth and standardso f living imporve,perhaps the aleins encounter similar issues and civilizations stay small and quiet, exploring space without trying to massively alter it. Perhaps species with more ambitious plans for the cosmos burn out as they expand and collapse as well.

we're in the dark here bros.

>>11648226
you don't know anything about science or about any of the great scientists

>Aliums can't become even type 1 without tons of cheap hydrocarbons or the equivalent
>If those run out or turn uneconomical, industrial society probably collapses
>You need industrial society to form the technological base for colonizing space

solved it, there you go

>>11652685

This. The red pill is that sufficiently advanced civilizations build inward, not outward. Want proof? We humans cluster into cities to built microprocessors to fit more data into smaller space, all sonwe can eventually upload trillions, perhaps even infinite, number of "souls" into the depths of reality. This is more optimum.

>>11645823
Man, you're such a retard speaking like this about the time with literally the most travel and desire to travel in the history of mankind.

>>11641434
https://www.otherhand.org/home-page/area-51-and-other-strange-places/looking-at-the-bob-lazar-story-from-the-perspective-of-2018/

yw

>>11652685
>>11652692
But that is exactly the reason why they'd build them. Why colonize planets, when you can build habitats, with all their comforts? Living on planets may be seen as living in the jungle once you get advanced enough.

>>11652913

Like Sagan said. Infinite depth. Infinite. We can get smaller forever. And that requires ABSURDLY less resources than outward expansion.

>>11652533
This is the reason why dive VR is the best possible invention for humanity. Its achieveable and it provides us freedom to explore anything to our imaginations reach in the safety of our own minds. The electric based neuron system of our brains are not something that can evolve multiple times in multiple different systems even regarsin all the probability in the universe. Inside our mind we decide the rules we follow. Its best to capitalize on this gift rather than risk extinction.

>>11641434
Every time a society reaches our level of technology, the easy life it creates leads them to prioritize woke ideologies, diversity, and "social justice" over further advances. All the tech is used for is cummies and drama, competence declines, and there's a technological collapse. Then the process repeats.
There will never be a "Type III" civilization.

>>11653224
Dopamine based sexual relief may or may not be their form of short term self satisfaction but I get your point.

>>11641434
There is intelligent life in the universe, we're just too stupid for them to even care about us

>>11652921
>Like Sagan said. Infinite depth. Infinite. We can get smaller forever
How?

>>11653224
sounds like the byproduct of your mental illness rather than any actually verifiable phenomenon.

>>11641434
>there is no way to safely traverse between stars
>there is no way to quickly traverse between the stars
>thanks to genetics and cybernatics people become more or less immortal
>VR technology becomes indistinguishable from reality
>instead launching suicidal colonization attempts all civilizations turn their planets into tombworlds where they can live for millions of years in bliss
that means no ayyy pussy for anyone, ever

>>11652533
isnt the point of the oort cloud to force relativistic traveler to stop on the outset of the solar system ?

>>11653417
Pussy is not important once immortality hits. Hell, once VR reaches to a point of consciouness diving, living IRL itself will be obsolete

>>11641515
Yeah but that light is millions to billions of years old. We could be looking at a galaxy with a Type III civilization but wouldn't know it because from what we are able to see, it hasn't happened yet.
>>11643179
I'm gonna get one, pic related.
>>11643439
How would we notice when our window of detection is 200-2000 years?
>>11645802
Real post of the thread.

>>11653473
its important for me that you dont have it.

>>11653466
The oort cloud is so diffuse that you have a truly negligible risk of hitting anything

>>11653478
it is still significant enough for us not to have been destroyed by these relativistic missile seeking thingies op was afraid off

>>11653491
No, it really isn't at all. Even the asteroid belt is more diffuse than a few golf balls scattered through the Earth's volume. The Oort cloud is estimated to be orders of magnitude more diffuse.

>>11641602
>the vast majority of life is found on planets
You can't even do statistics with a sample size of one. The sample standard deviation is undefined.

>>11641434
You might over estimate the current capability of our observation tools. if we do manage to characterize celestial bodies, having no more than chemical composition of the atmosphere (if there is one) for our relatively close star systems is the maximum we can do. all the rest is math. hence lauching a gigantic orbital telescope such as James Webb.

There are still place of our own star system that have a lot of mysteries. the jovian and saturnian moons are a good example in this category.

Also considering we missed having a thriving, livable planed right next to us by a few undred thousand years puts into context the time factor. oservation material that happened billions of years ago is forever lost.
>but the light we percieve from distant stars is billion of years old!
indeed but what about the time before we percieved these as we do now?

My call on this matter is that our observation of the sky is still relatively young and that as time goes we will be able to observe more things and more accruately than we do now. Only then would it be legitimate to take conclusions.

>>11647982
dyson sphere is a hypothetical strucure that encapsulates a star to capture and use all of its emmisions. so if said structure would exsist you couldn't see the star.

>>11650991
You still wouldn't be able to see the present time of a civilization

>>11652684
This, hell more than half the people that visit this Peruvian wash cloth knitting board are religious, that already disqualifies them from being taken seriously, yet here they are spouting the human ignorance that we are already on top of things. Not even close.

>>11641434
In order for life to form, many factors must be taken into account, the position of the planet in relation to the sun, the type of sun, whether the planet has water or volcanoes, whether the planet has a protector like Jupiter for us. And if somehow all those factors are presents, you will still need the life to evolve without getting killed by an asteroid, gamma ray burst, high activity from the sun, killed by some superior species etc.
Also, sometimes you need an accident to happen, like that asteroid 65 mil years ago, without that, humans would most likely it would not have been here. In conclusion, you need almost perfect conditions for intelligent life to appear and develop

>>11653590
You would see a large infrared emitter though, if you could detect it. The same amount of energy output from the star would still come out somehow eventually because of entropy.

If this is the case, perhaps there are many such structures but the infrared emissions from them is just too far below our detection capabilities.

>>11643128
they must have visited us 2,000 years ago

>>11646976
they must have visited us 2,000 years ago

>>11653718
from everything we know about Early Earth, life is relatively easy and quick to form given just a few starting conditions.

intelligent life, however, is likely to be the great filter everyone talks about. Life appeared on earth just a billion years after Earth first formed, and some estimates place it even earlier than that.

Hominids, however, took 3.5 billion years to appear, and truly intelligent hominids did not appear until just 160,000 years ago. If that asteroid hadn't wiped out all the dinosaurs intelligent life likely would have never come about, period.

I think pretty much everyone vastly underestimates just how rare intelligence is.

>>11653474
The same thing could happen the other way around, if we ever reach type 3 civs we might take a look at a type 1 civ but see nothing there because the light waves haven't reached us yet

If reality on the smallest scale is just mathematics then what's to stop a sufficiently advanced artificial super intelligence from transcending into some higher plane of existence or creating some kind of black hole computer to simulate their own reality.

This is my hypothesis as to why there are holes in the milky way galaxy where there are no stars.

>>11653359
t- coomer

>>11641434
That is not a proof.

Here are some possible explanations:

1)In nature, we see animals frequently evolve an appearance that makes them difficult to distinguish from their surroundings. Consider the snow bunny, white fur, very difficult to spot in snow. Or consider polar bears. Even intelligent species have been shown to develop camouflage and stealth and various other ways to mask their presence. 100% of the intelligent species we have seen do this. Perhaps all species do this after a point and the reason we don't see them is because they don't wish to be seen. What makes puny sub-level-1 you think you can see fuckin any 1+ against their will?

2) You may think you have some idea about how many stars are in a distant galaxy but you don't. The light from a billion stars could vanish from one of these galaxies and easily go completely unnoticed. Half of the stars in a galaxy could have been encased in dyson spheres since we first developed telescopes and we'd mark the extra gravity down as due to dark matter. Furthermore we only can see dim stars in the very near region. We base our guesses as to their prevalence in the rest of the universe entirely on a survey that has a sample size of one galaxy. We have NO fucking clue how many there really are. They could dyson sphere those bitches and nobody would be the wiser.

3) as humanity advances technologically, we are shying away from big powerful broadcast signals. Who the fuck even watches tv over antenna anymore? Shit, i bet radio doesn't last another decade. They are being replaced by hard lines; cable, fiops, dsl, etc. The big signal generators are also being replaced by smaller and more numerous sources; cell towers, wifi routers, bluetooth, etc. This is partially because it's inefficient but also because of bandwidth concerns.

>>11642200
Ah yes, "the universe exists inside an alien who's constantly orgasming" theory

>>11655610
4) Even we have the tech to be able to have two devices communicate with each other by sending a bit on one frequency then the next chink on another and so on and so on. These same devices can encrypt and send on multiple freqs simultaneously. I challenge you to figure out a way to spot that shit from the noise if you don't have any clue which freqs they're hopping around on, what their encryption is like, and what they're even sending. If the chunks are short enough, it gets real friggin challenging, you can believe that.

5) Signal intensity drops off as something like 1/d^2. But then it will also get redshifted over cosmic distances. Nuclear infernos larger than our entire planet are basically invisibly once you get to a megaparsec. You think you're going to pick up on some ship comms not even aimed at you? Maybe you are expecting to hear captain shnorlock request docking permission over in the Andromeda galaxy by accident? I encourage you to do the math and figure out how much energy it'd take to do a spherically emitted broadcast with enough intensity for you to detect in the next galaxy over. Then ask yourself why captain shnorlock would waste so much energy when he could do a simple aimed, local transmission with much less power required.

>>11654971
I think you overestimate the rarity. Consider gorillas, neanderthals, whales, dolphins, etc. Not saying they're smarter than humans by any means, but they are pretty intelligent and prove that it isn't *that* unlikely to get close.

>>11655610
You missed the most obvious explanations.

1. Our technology level is infantile. There could be another human level civilization on the closest exoplanet to us, and we currently have no way to prove or disprove. We simply lack the technology. We can't even eliminate the possibility of life on the moons of our solar system. Life could be everywhere. We don't even know what gravity is. Our arrogance is dangerously close to comedic levels.

2. As technology evolves, we've learned that it becomes smaller and more efficient. Why would a super civilization need to build clunky megastructures, when all evidence points that their technology would evolve inwards not outwards. Their technology would be so evolved, we wouldnt even know what were looking at.

3. The kardashev scale and fermi paradox both are based in speculation using primitive human technology. Imagine trying to define what an advanced civilization would need to do, or have to consume. This is arrogance at the highest level, and borderline insanity, yet its repeated ad nauseam.

This entire "paradox" is based on the arrogance and ignorance of humans, and declaring a paradox because we dont see a certain type of primitive human technology or energy consumption being used. It's pathetic, and small minded.

>>11653718
There is a subterranean ocean on europa.
Life could have evolved there. Liquid water and some other chemicals, probably sufficient for life to develop. Anyway you have no reason to believe that it couldnt in those conditions. This isn't the only moon in our solar system with giant underground oceans. That suggests they're probably common. Basically every gas giant far enough from their star to not completely fry is a viable candidate to have moons like that because it's tidal forces keeping the subterranean ocean warm. Goldilocks zone btfo.

>>11655645
Fair enough. My point is we don't even have to resort to humbling ourselves to that degree and we can see many pretty straightforward solutions. I didn't mean to imply it was an exhaustive list or that we would understand the tech or the motives of a 1+ civ. Or anything much beyond us, for that matter.

>>11647902
t. Lacks imagination and an open mind

Theres always someone like you in history too dumb to realize the next leap

>>11655610
What if the great attractor is literally a huge portion of stars covered in hyper efficient dyson spheres

>>11641434
Because even the closest nearby Galaxy is around 20k light years away, and since our instruments are limited by the speed of light, we only have info of your past not the current situation of those galaxies.
So if there were intelligent life in those galaxies looking back at us in search of intelligent life, they won't find any since they could only see how Earth was 20.000 years ago (the same thing applies to us when looking at "them")

>>11643135
/thread

Type 2 and type 3 civs exist but we can't percieve them due to the limitations of lightyear perception, as most are all much younger than their lightyear distance from us. /thread

>>11655690
OP talked explicitly about our galaxy only

>>11655726
there should still be a few that are old enough. The milky way is only ~200,000 ly in diameter

>>11656026
OP talked about our local group, but he mistyped "up" instead of "group". Easy to do when you are completely stoned.

>>11647033

This post made me so mad, I created this graph.

>pic related

>>11655690
>Because even the closest nearby Galaxy is around 20k light years away, and since our instruments are limited by the speed of light, we only have info of your past not the current situation of those galaxies.

20k years is literally nothing on cosmic timescales, so this argument does not work.

>>11656082
Nice, saved.

>>11656082
It is pretty. Could you display another graph that details the last green bit?

>>11656082
thanks /b/ro, i wasn't even aware of kepler 444

>>11656082
Land-based life could have had a bar too.

>>11656082
based on this, we can see that rocky planets appeared quickly and also life appeared quickly, however intelligent life took long to appear

so maybe there is other life in the galaxy but intelligent life capable of using advanced technology is very rare?

how old is the universe going to be then?

>>11656133
>however intelligent life took long to appear

intelligent life could have appeared on earth alone multiple times in the past

You really think we would know if earth was inhabited by an intelligent species 2 billion years ago?

>>11656159
we could find fossile remains of them. The absence of them doesn't prove the opposite, of course

I'd say that any civilization that gets to a certain tech level, either destroys themselves, or progresses beyond goals such as "let's multiply exponentially forever and destroy every bit of matter for fuel".

>>11656104
>Could you display another graph that details the last green bit?

Here you go. The change in scale might be counterproductive for retards to grasp though.

That's why I think the first version is better.

>>11656194
Now show the part of the graph where humans have possessed the technology required to be able to detect other civilizations.

The answer is 0

>>11656218

I agree. That's why I won't make it.

>>11656218
>we just don't have the technology
Says who?

>>11656511

can we detect a civilization that is in the middle ages and fights with swords and shit
- Nope

can we detect a highly advanced civilization that uses tech way above our head (shit like generating worm holes to travel through)
- Nope

can we detect a civilization like ourselves - one that sits on its ass in the own solar system and does basically nothing, besides listening for radio signals
- Not very likely.

The whole SETI scam was doomed to fail from the start. Let's look for somebody who uses the exact same tech that we do in this tiny fragment of space and time.

>>11656511
Says "we couldn't even detect ourselves at a 4 light-year distance, let alone a less energetically wasteful civilization at thousands or millions of times that"

>>11656543
We can detect the energy signatures of a civilization that was harvesting an entire galaxy.

>>11656559
>Aliens must be using meme technology based on astronomically extrapolating our modern tech

>>11656572
>it's a meme because i said so
yeah no.

>>11656542
Dumb post. Your three examples are not what aliens would look like at all. First of all, medieval and modern period is only ~some hundreds of years long. We are very quickly either going to destroy ourselves or progress beyond it. So looking for civilizations comparable to humanity is futile. Second of all, sci-fi stuff such as wormholes and warp drives do not exist and never will, as they violate basic laws of physics. Even aliens have to abide by those.

Looking for deliberate signals and Dyson swarm signatures in starlight is what we should be doing.

>>11656574
If people around the world really travel so much, where's all the horse dung?

>>11656592
Dyson swarms are literally extrapolating human-tier technology on scales where it'll certainly be made obsolete by better alternatives. Just because we can't guess what it'll look like, doesn't mean it can't exist. How would someone from the 18th century have guessed how microprocessors would work?

>>11656595
>>11656598
>dude aliens will have FTL and other tech that will be completely unknowable!
back to >>>/x/, pseud.

>>11656602
Literally take some historical perspective. Every age has technology and capabilities that defeat and make a fool of the imaginations of the past ages.

>>11656613
Humans were writing about mechanical vehicles and even robots during the ancient times.

Again, fuck off back to >>>/x/, pseud.

>>11641567
pleb tier motto

>>11656619
And yet their realizations are nothing like what they thought possible. Where are the ancient predictions of electromagnetic power generators? Or internal combustion engines? Or fixed-wing flight?
And they made plenty of predictions that turned out either impossible or too impractical to be worth implementing. Where are the pipes of steam to transmit power? Or the flying cars? Or the ornithopters? Or the antigravity levitators for construction?

>>11656598
>How would someone from the 18th century have guessed how microprocessors would work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepped_reckoner

>>11656658
This is exactly my point though. They thought mass-produced calculating devices would rely on gears and levers and ratchets. If they saw a circuit board or a silicon chip they wouldn't have the slightest clue what the fuck they were looking at. If they were looking for advanced computers, they would look for steam-powered mechanical brass behemoths.

>>11656592
>Dumb post.

said the retard looking for the Dyson meme

Can you explain what exactly the benefit of such a gigantic structure would be? Go ahead.

Tell us how trying to convert most of the mass in a solar system into one artificial structure would be a beneficial undertaking.

Also: How exactly would they prevent these gigantic structures that are by definition bigger than planets from collapsing into themselves by their own gravitational pull.

Any attempt to build a Dyson-Anything would just form a new planet.

>>11646905
Actually there's a plan to send probes to Proxima Centauri, it's called Breakthrough Starshot.

>tfw born too late to explore the earth
> born too early to explore the galaxy

Born just in time for fuck all though
If intelligent life is a great filter, what's the next one?AI?

>>11657016

>>11656648
>And yet their realizations are nothing like what they thought possible
Because they had yet to discover the scientific method.

Meanwhile we had scientists predicting cosmic phenomena literally hundreds of years before we had the tools to verify them. They did this via the scientific method.

>>>/x/

go back

>>11657276
>Meanwhile we had scientists predicting cosmic phenomena literally hundreds of years before we had the tools to verify them. They did this via the scientific method.

Scientists like Miguel Alcubierre?


>>>>/x/
>go back

how about you stop doing this
it's cringe as fuck

>>11641434
No, there could be a biophysical basis of the fermi paradox. Any industrial revolution reduces selection pressures. One of these pressures is selection for intelligence. You get a depressive effect on average intelligence in said population, hence it can just do less intelligent things.

Average engineer iq is 125, fewer engineers, less chance of getting off the planet successfully. Industrial societies always degrade due to this phenomena, hence no space men.

>>11657395
>Alcubierre drive
Was debunked long ago. Thanks for proving what a mouth breathing pseud you are.

Go back >>>/x/

>>11657407
Don't forget destructive anti-christ religions like Marxism and intellectual dishonesty preventing fixes and actively making the problems worse

>>11657422
Oh totally. Can't save your country from becoming uganda-tier, might hurt someones feelings.

>>11657407
That's assuming no eugenics or genetic engineering was implemented by some society and that's quite a big assumption. It might be the great filter for us, sadly, but it can't be The great filter.

What if it's like the Old Earth hypothesis or whatever it was called, what it means is that the Earth is one of the first planets in the universe to harbour life, even if this isn't true it's still hard to be a type III civilization, even if there are only 300 planets in our whole galactic cluser all of them would statistically only harbour single-cellular life *yet*.

>>11657437
I mean its all speculation. But for the joy of argument, even if you do implement eugenics, there's an inherent "yuck factor" - that is what its called, meaning people don't want to. Plus any programme of eugenics wouldn't necessarily produce more geniuses, which is what you need if your goal is colonise the stars...because geniuses are usually quite isolated unpleasant autists that obsess over one thing, ie not the kind of kid most people want.

Case in fact, theres eugenics going on now, in the form of selection pressure, for extroverted, confident, word spinners, as thats whats rewarded in this system monetarily.

>>11657415

You know what is funny? Seeing that in your head you are clearly imagining yourself as some voice of reason on the internet.

>>11657439

see this
>>11656082

>>11657016
Why is there a plan to do this? Oh that's right, it's because we currently dont have the technology capable of detecting if anyone is there.

The whole breakthrough initiative is interesting and certainly has the backing of billionaires, I hope they succeed.

>>11657016
Getting near light speed is all well and good. Try slowing down from near light speed.

>>11657479
They can't slow down, so the proposed solution is to send thousands of nanoprobes, each equipped to record and transmit data for only some minutes, while passing the Alpha Centauri system.

>>11657479
say it with me
>STAGED NUCLEAR PULSE PROPULSION

>>11657485
What kind of data are you going to get from a nanoprobe traveling at high speed? Hows it getting transmitted off the probe? Moors law is not indefinite, and theres a reason antenna on space probes are as large as they are.

>>11657508
You may start with the rather basic wiki page. If you have greater interest you may try asking technical questions, hopefully on a slightly higher level than the ones you asked here, directly to the people involved.

>>11657524
Yeah its a low level question, but kind of the first one you'd have to answer for this scale of engineering project. What data? how are you collecting it? how are you transmitting/ storing it. Basic af sure, but otherwise its just a pipe dream sale for fluffy heads, like Theranos.

>>11652533
I will present a counterargument to this.

Instead of civ 1 destorying civ 2, it would be smarter for civ 1 to be secretly watching over civ 2. Then civ 3 has spotted civ 2 and studied their accidental transmissions, and they know nothing of any alien civilizations, so we don't know civ 1 exists. So civ 3 destroys civ 2 and then civ 1 destroys civ 3.

It would be smarter to use less-advanced civs as 'bait' and study them, rather than outright destroy them. Just in case they are being monitored by another hidden civ. Because that hidden civ could see where this 'relativistic bomb' came from.

Thoughts?

>>11641434
>If just 0.1% of life-bearing planets develop intelligent and technological societies
I assert that this number is instead .00000001%, with exactly as much evidence as you have presented, OP.

>>11658967
wtf??? how did they get the cat to do that?? Help!?

>>11641434
it very safe to search for life in space
regardless of what you claim it never gonna backfire

>>11659008
that would only support my final point that we are alone in the cosmic horizon.

>>11641434

I'm actually of the opinion of three possibilities:

1) Civilizations are the biggest threat to themselves and destroy themselves before becoming space-faring.

2) Most civilizations choose not to traverse space and turn their civilization into a local utopia.

3) There is a super-advanced, robotic minority of aliens that systemically destroy competing civilizations.

>>11641434
Theres only one G*d and He created us

>>11659008
Would still be 100,000+ societies at .00000001%

>>11659818
Deep time, things decay, maybe its just unfeasible to travel between stars. If all humans vanished, how much evidence would be left in a few million years? Hell if a type 2 civ decayed, what would be left in a few million years?

>>11657479
Its EZ you just decelerate in the opposite direction.
With light craft that means you need a receiver station or be satisfied with unmanned probes doing a fly by.
If you could use an orion drive or a fusion drive you'd just travel to the system, build a solar collector around that star and badabing you now have a relatively quick way to travel between you and your nearest star.
If you had unmanned drones and automated factory ships you could just send them out well ahead of you to build those around every star you could have a highway across the milky way constructed before you've even started to scratch the surface of resources in our home system.
Average distance between stars in the milky way is about five light years, even low relativistic speeds put the travel time between neighbors well inside a human lifespan.

>>11659646
cope

>>11660071
correct and brutal

>>11641434
Why do you assume they would develop civilization the same way we did or even a civilization at all? You probably wouldn't even call them "aliens" since they're way of concept on another planet is so much different than what we call living. After all, you can see for yourself all the variations of organisms on the earth alone. Just imagine what so of way aliens exist somewhere hundreds of life years away

>>11641434
It is an assumption that we're are able to detect alien life at all, or that they could detect us. Those are just two assumptions from the massive pile of assumptions that make up the Fermi "paradox". All that thought experiment tells us is that we are probably making a lot of faulty assumptions about the question of alien life. The categoziation of civilizations into those types is probably one of those faulty assumptions, same with stereotypical megastructures.

>>11647936
thinking you know what they can or cannot do makes you a retard

>>11647966
Yeah, just like we knew everything there is to know about pluto and were not surprised at ALL from the pictures sent back from the new horizons probe.

What we know from other star systems is a literal blinking pixel, from which we derive the size, distance and relative velocity from the star (by looking at it's color) and if it has any big planets (by looking at the way it blinks). We know very, very little.

>>11641434
low iq
>>11641447
low iq
>>11641460
low iq
>>11641515
low iq
>>11641567
low iq
>>11641571
low iq
>>11641602
low iq
>>11641604
low iq
>>11641626
low iq
>>11641758
low iq
>>11641759
low iq
>>11642074
low iq
>>11642091
low iq
>>11642093
low iq
>>11642095
low iq
>>11642097
low iq
>>11642104
low iq
>>11642110
low iq
>>11642115
low iq
>>11642124
low iq
>>11642131
low iq
>>11642143
low iq
>>11642165
low iq
>>11642171
low iq
>>11642188
low iq
>>11642200
low iq
>>11642202
low iq
>>11642211
low iq
>>11642226
low iq
>>11642313
low iq
>>11642321
low iq
>>11642368
low iq
>>11642434
low iq
>>11642581
low iq
>>11642602
low iq
>>11642631
low iq
>>11643028
low iq
>>11643097
low iq
>>11643108
low iq
>>11643128
low iq
>>11643135
low iq
>>11643138
low iq
>>11643142
low iq
>>11643146
low iq
>>11643149
low iq
>>11643170
low iq

>>11663156
OK Anon, show us your massive IQ.

>>11649958
the ultimate goal is transforming into the energy itself

>>11663156
Hello high iq fren

>>11663079
>just like we knew everything there is to know about pluto and were not surprised at ALL from the pictures sent back from the new horizons probe.

I mean, we weren't really? Some details about geology were different but the basic picture is very much like expected.

>>11656800
>Can you explain what exactly the benefit of such a gigantic structure would be? Go ahead.

Energy generation.

>Also: How exactly would they prevent these gigantic structures that are by definition bigger than planets from collapsing into themselves by their own gravitational pull.

Dyson swarm is not a single structure at all. It is a huge cloud of orbiting satellites.

>>11657456
>even if you do implement eugenics, there's an inherent "yuck factor"

There is no inherent yuck factor in eugenics, it is just post-war irrational propaganda. Eugenics was universally accepted as a good thing before being associated with Hitler. If anything, humanity is abnormal and most other species would practice eugenics without any second thoughts about it.

>>11664282
>speculation much

>>11664256
We had no idea it even had massive mountains/glaciers or cold volcanoes or an actual significant atmosphere, for starters. Observations guessed it had something like it beforehand, but the actual scale went beyond expectations.

>>11651425
regular forest: spooky
Dark Forest: SPOOKY

>>11664269
Such a swarm will still have gravitational instability to be reckoned with. Also, how would you prevent the inevitable collisional cascade when a single sungrazing comet comes in?

>>11646699
Finally, someone gets it

>>11664269
Hilariously inefficient and the product of ape tech speculation.

You dont get it. A civilization that advanced could create their own mini stars and control them via gravity manipulation, etc

Dyson swarms are a meme

>>11641434
>1

>>11652533
The dark forest scenario, aka World where nobody invented the concept of "telescope"

>>11665038
You keep laughing at "ape tech", yet you can't give any example of anything better than Dyson Swarm.

> create their own mini stars and control them via gravity manipulation, etc
Control them to do what?

>>11641434
>But once self-propagating systems have attained global scale, two crucial differences emerge. The first difference is in the number of individuals from among which the "fittest" are selected. Self-prop systems sufficiently big and powerful to be plausible contenders for global dominance will probably number in the dozens, or possibly in the hundreds; they certainly will not number in the millions. With so few individuals from among which to select the "fittest," it seems safe to say that the process of natural selection will be inefficient in promoting the fitness for survival of the dominant global self-prop systems. It should also be noted that among biological organisms, species that consist of a relatively small number of large individuals are more vulnerable to extinction than species that consist of a large number of small individuals. Though the analogy between biological organisms and self-propagating systems of human beings is far from perfect, still the prospect for viability of a world-system based on the dominance of a few global self-prop systems does not look encouraging.

>>11666999
>The second difference is that in the absence of rapid, worldwide transportation and communication, the breakdown or the destructive action of a small-scale self-prop system has only local repercussions. Outside the limited zone where such a self-prop system has been active there will be other self-prop systems among which the process of evolution through natural selection will continue. But where rapid, worldwide transportation and communication have led to the emergence of global self-prop systems, the breakdown or the destructive action of any one such system can shake the whole world-system. Consequently, in the process of trial and error that is evolution through natural selection, it is highly probable that after only a relatively small number of "trials" resulting in "errors," the world-system will break down or will be so severely disrupted that none of the world's larger or more complex self-prop systems will be able to survive. Thus, for such self-prop systems, the trial-and-error process comes to an end; evolution through natural selection cannot continue long enough to create global self-prop systems possessing the subtle and sophisticated mechanisms that prevent destructive internal competition within complex biological organisms.

>>11667003
>Meanwhile, fierce competition among global self-prop systems will have led to such drastic and rapid alterations in the Earth's climate, the composition of its atmosphere, the chemistry of its oceans, and so forth, that the effect on the biosphere will be devastating. In Part IV of the present chapter we will carry this line of inquiry further: We will argue that if the development of the technological world-system is allowed to proceed to its logical conclusion, then in all probability the Earth will be left a dead planet-a planet on which nothing will remain alive except, maybe, some of the simplest organisms-certain bacteria, algae, etc.-that are capable of surviving under extreme conditions.

>>11667006
>The theory we've outlined here provides a plausible explanation for the so-called Fermi Paradox. It is believed that there should be numerous planets on which technologically advanced civilizations have evolved, and which are not so remote from us that we could not by this time have detected their radio transmissions. The Fermi Paradox consists in the fact that our astronomers have never yet been able to detect any radio signals that seem to have originated from an intelligent extraterrestrial source.
>According to Ray Kurzweil, one common explanation of the Fermi Paradox is "that a civilization may obliterate itself once it reaches radio capability." Kurzweil continues: "This explanation might be acceptable if we were talking about only a few such civilizations, but [if such civilizations have been numerous], it is not credible to believe that every one of them destroyed itself" Kurzweil would be right if the self-destruction of a civilization were merely a matter of chance. But there is nothing implausible about the foregoing explanation of the Fermi Paradox if there is a process common to all technologically advanced civilizations that consistently leads them to self-destruction. Here we've been arguing that there is such a process.

>>11666993
not him, but it's probably more likely for an antimatter reactor capable of turning any kind of mass into energy to be developed before a civilisation decides that building a dyson ring/sphere/swarm is necessary.

>>11667018
Or maybe antimatter is just the corresponding tachyons and no such thing is possible.

>>11667018
Or maybe antimatter is just the corresponding tachyons and no such thing is possible.

The Dark Forest is true.
Fight me on it.

>>11665038

>A civilization that advanced could create their own mini stars and control them via gravity manipulation, etc

Gravity manipulation is impossible, no matter how advanced you are.

>inb4 scifi bullshit

>>11641604
serbians can do it, so can humans then

>>11641460
>Conversely, how would we go about detecting them ourselves?
Their home galaxy would emit massive amounts of long wave infrared but no short wave light. The spectrum would really stick out like a sore thumb. It is easy to see it if it is there.

>>11641571
How?

>>11641567
Except from that we have done a whole sky survey and none of the local galaxies, is in the premise of OP, does not show the tell tale signs of a level III civilisation.

>>11642074
You need to look up the definitions here.

>>11668466

>b...but muh Kardashev scale

How fucking hard is it to imagine a civilization that isn't obsessed with getting more energy?

Or maybe imagine one that gets its energy not from the sun?

>where else would they get their energy from

glad you asked: may I remind you of
>pic related

Why do retards like you always have to pretend that you figured everything out. Is it somehow part of your condition?