/sci/ - Science & Math

Yes. It is a person when the sperm fertalizes the egg. They have a soul given to them by God.

>>11612967
I think that once it has a heartbeat, it does

>>11612967
The idea that a human becomes so during growth in the womb is much more logical and believable than the common notion that they become a person once they pass their mother's pussy lips.

>>11612967
no higher brain = no mind = no person

applies to early term foetuses but also to braindead but otherwise alive patients

Yes abortion is murder.

person
noun
1.
a human being regarded as an individual.

Is it human? If not, what is it, a toaster? Is it an individual? If not, what is it, a group? If it isn't an individual human, then what is it, a group of toasters?

>>11612994
then masturbation is genocide

>>11612996
No you become a human when the sperm touches the egg

>>11612967
Depends on definitions. Which is the entire problem in this debate.

>>11612988
Especially because C-sections.

a fetus is only a person when it can take out a loan. given the only other legal comparison of an entity becoming a person is a corporation

>>11612992
concur. A human being "is" when they have consciousness- before then they are no better than a sack of meat.

>>11612988
>The idea that a human becomes so during growth in the womb is much more logical and believable

sure, but the idea that it happens right at conception is retarded

>>11612967
A person is a mask which an individual wears. A persona. So no.

>>11612967
No, and babies aren't either

>>11612967
Yes. Since conception.

>>11612967
YES
It is actually possible for a Doctor to lose his license if he dare denies it.

I'm not against abortion but I am raging at the thought of dehumanizing fetuses just because it is convenient

>>11612967
Person: whole
Cells: parts
A cell is a living unit, a part of a human whole.
A zygote is a whole, not a part, as it has the intrinsic ability, due to the genome's expression, to develop all the emerging properties of the human being. It is not a potential human whole, it IS a human whole in the world of BECOMING. Human personhood is determined by human being, and a human person begins to BE after conception.
The direct killing of any human being, due to the intrinsic worth of a human, is morally abhorrent
>tl'dr inshallah death to IVF, abortion clinics, embryonic stem cell research, fertility clinics
>In fact inshallah death to contraception, masturbation, divorce, pornography, homosexuality-- human sexuality is sacred and can only be channeled in healthy monogamous marital relationship

>>11612967
You aren't a real person until you are properly circumclamped by your local CIA shaman.

>>11612979
lol

>>11612996
with tech advancement even scratching your nose is genocide

>>11612995
Did you get a stroke

>>11614384
Based and clipped

>>11612979
Shut the fuck up you Jesus loving faggot

>>11612996
It is for your body. A person is formed when the 2 gametes are fused.

>>11613333
Checked.

>>11612967
It doesn't matter. As soon as egg is fetilized, it becomes a new individual which is a member of the human species. The question whether it has any consciousness or experience is a red herring used by pro-abortionists to justify the abortion. Ask yourself the question if it is OK to murder a person that is unconscious or asleep in a state that is not REM.

Abortion is murder, because you're ending the existence of a member of your own species. All the other arguments are vapid, low-IQ attempts at justifying murder.

>>11612967
idk self recognition seems to be a fair point until then they are the same as animals arent they?

>>11612967
If it's not born it's not a person

>lifefags still not understanding the reason for abortion being legal is actually because of privacy rules that follow from the 4th ammendment and doctor/patient confidentiality
to make abortion illegal you basically have to rip up the constitution and eliminate privacy. pick your poison, christfags

>>11612967
Around the third trimester, once it has developed substantial brain and central nervous system function, yes, which is why virtually all abortion laws reflect this, and consequently less than 2% of abortions occur after this point (and then only in times of extreme emergency)

>>11615749
over half of fertilized zygotes self-abort because of chromosomal errors that render them nonviable. is this murder?

You're not a person until you can walk and talk

>>11615922
We have statistics over it, mate
Only 20% of abortion were done to save the mother

>>11615960
Suicide

Overwhelming number of abortion doctors are absolutely disgusted at what they do, suffers from ptsd, and even turns into activists against abortion

>I am personally responsible for 75,000 abortions. This legitimizes my credentials to speak to you with some authority on the issue.
Fetology makes it undeniably evident that life begins at conception and requires all the protection and safeguards that any of us enjoy. Why, you may well ask, do some American doctors who are privy to the findings of fetology, discredit themselves by carrying out abortions? Simple arithmetic at $500 a time, 1.2 million abortions means an industry generating $600 million annually, of which most goes into the pocket of the physician doing the abortion.

>It is clear that permissive abortion is purposeful destruction of what is undeniably human life. It is an impermissible act of deadly violence. One must concede that unplanned pregnancy is a wrenchingly difficult dilemma, but to look for its solution in a deliberate act of destruction is to trash the vast resourcefulness of human ingenuity and to surrender the public weal to the classic utilitarian answer to social problems.

>As a scientist I know, not believe, know that human life begins at conception.

Oh but I thought it wasn't a human?

>>11614589
Go suck cock in hell cracker.

>>11615922
>I HAVE THE PRIVACY TO MURDER A HUMAN
???

Abortion should be legal just for making poltards seethe so much

>>11615922
Doctor/patient confidentiality only covers the identity of the person involved. You can always just ask what illness he treated and how many. Otherwise, there would be no statistic over the amount of deaths for every disease, disorder, and accidents

>>11614608
a microscopic cell is not a person

>>11615749
>Ask yourself the question if it is OK to murder a person that is unconscious or asleep in a state that is not REM.

Bad analogy. Sleeping people still have their mind encoded in brain neural network, merely turned off. On the other hand, a foetus in early term is like a braindead patient on life support, with no mind at all.

It is OK to kill such patients and we routinely do it in hospitals as they are biologically alive but legally dead.

In General Law, there is a concept called "legal entity" refered to people, person or any organization that doesn't have to exist in real life.

I wonder why so few people complain on this concept, and why so many complain on the issue regarding fetuses and their right to be considered as 'real people'.

>>11615922
>lifefags still not understanding the reason for abortion being legal is actually because of privacy rules

Nope, because late term abortions are illegal. the actual reason is viability of the foetus.

>>11616055
human life =/= human person

>>11616222
Personhood is an opinion.
Shut the fuck up

>>11616222
>human life =/= human person
Imagine actually believing this.

>>11616287
yes, an opinion on abortion is what we are discussing here, reetard

>>11612967
The thing is big pharma doesn't care. They've convinced 50% of the country that fetuses are not children and got roe v wade through. If government regulations in pharma are cut and planned parenthood abolished, lowering their power, people will come to their senses. Right now the pharmaceutical industry funds all mainstream media, so not a single negative word is said about how we sell the remains of human babies. And, 50% of the country still believes what they say despite being shown over and over to be pushing a marketing scheme. I can think of two solutions, change the hearts and minds of the Democrats by revealing the truth. Or, increase competition in the pharmaceutical industry and we beat them at their own game fair and square. As long as a few companies have the rights to sell babies (which makes beaucoup money), they can concentrate their power on pushing the narrative through the mainstream media. Increase competition and you diffuse this power, it's still possible that they all come together and collude with government and the media as they do now, but much less likely as there are quite a few good people in pharma too. Independent media will be mainstream again, in some ways it already is as the Trump supporters as well as the Bernie Sanders progressive realize the lies in many cases. So, that's just how I would do it. Diffuse the power across more people with looser regulation, tighter monetary supply as well probably switch to Ted Cruz's flat tax. That would really make them seethe.

>>11612967
You should scientifically define what "person" is, at first.

>>11616340
based schizo

>>11616319
What does the abortion doctors say?

>>11612967
>a person
This is a legal/social term but a fetus IS a living human being

>>11614589
It's weird that you seethe this much.

>>11613333
Based and marxpilled

>>11612999
>All those sperm cells who die touching the egg sacrificing themselves so that one sperm cell can get through
>All those sperm cells that touch an egg but do not fertilize due to birth control
>A vast majority of all fertilized zygotes are spontaneously aborted due to defects etc.

A massacre every time someone fucks a woman without a condom. Thank god I'm gay and not some sick fuck who kills people whenever I have sex with my partner.

Doesnt matter, as long as it is living off of someone else, the person being parasited on has the right to get rid of the parasite. Doesnt matter if its human or xenomorph

A fetus is a parasite feeding on the vitality of the mother. When it exits her body and is cut from external support, only then should it be considered a person. If a mother wishes to terminate the parasite at any point, she has every right to. If the mother wants to terminate, but the fetus is already capable of sustaining itself, then she should STILL be free to do so, but she forfeits her right of motherhood and the government would take custody of the child. If the baby cannot survive on its own, it has no right to be considered a person.

No one should ever be able to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own body. My body belongs to me, and me alone. Anything that happens to be living inside my body is my personal property. I AM THE MOTHERFUCKING GOD OF MYSELF AND ALL WITHIN ME. Bacteria are my slaves. They're free to rebel and fight back; my victory only proves my legitimacy as Godking.

It is physically and genetically human, but has no experiences, personality or other important factors most people would consider a "soul". Same for someone born braindead or having gone braindead, there's nothing going on upstairs, it's just a hunk of meat.

I would choose a dog over a fetus, but I would choose a fetus over a vegetable or insect, as the fetus still has the potential to develop a soul.

>>11612995
I am a toaster.

>>11618091
>muh body
>muh choice
Oh sure
It's the abortion doctor's hospital. Do as he say or do it your self

Abortion doctor also follow the rules set by the government or they lose their license

Oh, and abortion doctors are in the decline because the job is just too dehumanizing and traumatizing

>>11618092
>It is physically and genetically human, but has no experiences, personality or other important factors most people would consider a "soul".

Prove it.

>>11618074
>Doesnt matter, as long as it is living off of someone else, the person being parasited on has the right to get rid of the parasite.

Nope. There exists no right to murder oth

>>11612967
Yes, and abortion is unjustified murder. At the very minimum, it should be illegal to perform an abortion past the point of viability, which is 22 weeks.

>>11612996
>then masturbation is genocide
‘
Atheist teenager logic. Haploid gametes are merely motile cells of an adult human whereas fetuses are individual humans.

>>11615922
>to make abortion illegal you basically have to rip up the constitution and eliminate privacy

Nah. Just add a clause exempting abortion from the fourth amendment. Since it’s evil murder hiding behind legal bullshit, it’s fair to do so.

>>11618109
Is there any way for a fetus to experience anything that doesn't involve twitching in amniotic fluid?

inb4 reincarnation

>>11616217
>a foetus in early term is like a braindead patient on life support, with no mind at all.

Wrong. Braindead people have no possibility of ever awakening whereas fetuses have a strong chance of doing so if not murdered.

>>11618139
Hence why a fetus is less valuable than an infant, and a vegetable is less valuable than a fetus. It's far from a black and white issue, one has to consider the possible contribution or drain of resources the entities are capable of.

>>11618137
>Is there any way for a fetus to experience anything that doesn't involve twitching in amniotic fluid?

They spend most of the day, about 20 hours, sleeping because there’s nothing to do in there, but they can listen to the outside world which assists in language development.

>>11618145
>Hence why a fetus is less valuable than an infant

The fetus is actually more valuable to me because it has the capacity to experience more total wellbeing; the same reason a young adult is more valuable than an old person.

>>11612979
Yeah ... this isn't even true.
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-7.htm

I dunno, maybe you're uninformed? Guess you could also believe in 'God' without being Christian but typically other religions use different names for Deity

As far as scientifically, science has no ability to determine morality. It simply states facts and confirms or contradicts hypotheses. This is a question for
>>>/lit/

>>11618137
Anything that a mother feels so does the fetus.
It was found that if the mother is in stress, the fetus shall release stem cells and hormones that would help the mother

>>11618147
At which point does that start though? For your consideration, point of viability is a large factor in my stance, it's simple enough of a conclusion I'd say. I'd still argue that in some sort of life or death situation, a born infant takes priority over a viable fetus, which takes priority over a zygote, it's definitely a spectrum.

>>11618153
>science has no ability to determine morality
lul
Yes it does
Does it benefit mankind?
Clearly yes
Does it cause moral degeneration and social deterioration
Also yes

There. you can figure out whether "thing" is moral or not

>>11618155
Is that a cognitive or an endocrine reaction, though? I can't decide whether or not I've got cortisol in my system, as much as I wish I could.

>>11612967
>Scientifically speaking, is a fetus a person?
I read this as
>scientifically speaking, is a fetus a good person?
That was a much better question.

>>11618162
That's philosophy, not science. Don't get me wrong philosophy is important especially ethics but that's literally not science.

Do not trade your humanity for some pseudoscience, people.

Belittling the definition of "Life" out of convenience is just one of the few cracks in society that would grow into fractures in social cohesion.
We've been there. We all dehumanizes our enemies.
And this time, our enemy is our own children

Tell me how you can still call yourself a human at that point

>>11612992
So we're only murdering thing that will be persons.

>>11618172
It's called "social science"
It's the study of society and how we manages to work together for the benefit of everone and how the addition of a few religion, economy, resources, government, culture, art, etc, may bring harm and good.

>>11612992
So we're only murdering things that will be persons.

>>11618160
>At which point does that start though?

Somewhere between 5 and 20 weeks.

> For your consideration, point of viability is a large factor in my stance

It has no significance to mine. Lives vary in value but never are their forfeit.

>>11618162
>Does it benefit mankind?

Technically, there’s no reason we ought to value what “benefits mankind” logically, but claiming one doesn’t actually care what “benefits mankind” outs oneself as a sociopath with whom no further discussion is necessary.

>>11618174
Considering I'm very much in favor of using computer-controlled human homunculi to perform complex labor, my definition of personhood is entirely a cognitive one; meat is meat. An intelligent and contributional mind is worth much more than none at all, but where that line is drawn or what metric of value is used I can't answer at this time.

>>11618197
>there’s no reason we ought to value what “benefits mankind” logically
Kant's categorical imperative would like a word

>>11618197
I just made it brief

20% of abortions were done without any risk for the mother
54% of abortions were from teenagers or young adults who made an oopsie
It benefits them, technically
But it sure is disgusting to find that people tolerates such actions.
The fault here is the fact that society has crumbled to the point that the people are growing up without any sense of self-respect and does not treat their sexuality as a sacred thing

>>11618189
I agree for the most part. There's a lot better solutions like contraception or voluntary sterilization that should be used more often to entirely avoid this issue, but then you get into the problem of whether a person irresponsibly reproducing should have the right to do so given circumstances like poverty or poor upbringing. There's no easy solution.

shit debate, it's all just semantics

>>11618208
You forgot that like 1% of abortions are because of rape or disease

>>11618208
>does not treat their sexuality as a sacred thing
ironically, unless it's to cry rape

>>11618208
>It benefits them, technically

At others expense. Whatever discomfort one may experience bringing a child to term is insignificant in comparison to the value of an entire human and the boundless pleasures they may experience.

>>11618202
Thinking like a machine would never work in a society because humans are not machines
We are capable of emotions, imaginations, empathy, and solidarity.

Morality is just the word used to define the unwritten laws that everyone follows in order to have a well-functioning society that respects everyone

Allow abortion and suddenly, people starts questioning the sanctity of life and where you draw the line

It goes like this
>we allow abortion because it is not a human and it is better to lose the fetus than the mother
>can I also abort my kid? I am a teenager who cannot aford it. It's better if he dies than both of us in poverty
>can I force my gf to abort our kid? we are not ready for a child and I do not want to be chained with a kid that I am not prepared for

See?
Small cracks
Big fractures

>>11618228
Or the plethora of ills they could bring to the people around them.

>>11618228
living isn't that great

>>11618208
>20% of abortions were done without any risk for the mother
I made a mistake here
Only 20% were done to save the mother. 80% were done just because

>>11618233
Again the solution is to not think with your genitals.

You don't have to think like a machine to still be staunchly logical, especially when the cycle of fuck-ups that poor parenting has produced is very much visible in the numbers.

>>11618239
Living is FUCKING AWESOME
Go blow your skull off if you don’t like it

>>11618239
When post-scarcity is a thing then we can stop being abstinent. Until then, reproduce responsibly.

>>11618239
The key to happiness is discipline.

>>11618250
“Responsibly” means have at least four children. It’s necessary to make up for all the soulless Eloi who don’t breed.

>>11618256
The resources or technology required to sustain that growth do not currently exist. Don't make your offspring start from scratch, there's much more to success than multiplying.

>>11618298
>The resources or technology required to sustain that growth do not currently exist

We must expand. Stagnation is death.

>>11618308
Then focus on expanding to space instead of in a finite biosphere. Don't burn out everything before that point of ISRU sustainability is reached.

>>11612996
wtf I love masturbation now??

>>11618322
>Then focus on expanding to space instead of in a finite biosphere

Sure thing. Starship will be operational in the foreseeable future.

>>11618344
Then get your fug on.

>>11612996
A sperm contains only half the genetic information. Even if this were not so, your statement is an appeal to hypocrisy, i.e. irrelevant. I make it a rule not to acknowledge red herring, but how could I refuse saying I don't jack off retard. What now?

Yes but life support isnt a human right. Abortion is still morally permissible.

Who cares about all this gay ethics shit. I just don't want disgusting smelly roasties to have the right to kill unborn children, or Dr. Goyimfetusdeletustein making and insane profit off of it. Is that too much to ask?

>>11612967
>>11612979
easiest bait ever

>>11618162
do you think eugenics benefits mankind?

>>11618021
says who?

>>11618182
Even social science isn't going to tell us what's ethical. It can tell us the consequences of certain actions but the ethics is up to us to decide with philosophy.

>>11612967
scientifically speaking, is a worm a human cause he maybe evolve after billions and billions of generation to an fully aware being?
And does this mean crushing a spider is murder?
Have trees human rights?
Is one neuron of the same value as an full grown adult?
Can a stone feel pain?
We will never ever know...

>>11618109
ever tried talking to a fetus? it's not like they even had time or the opportunity to learn to speak, right?

>>11618604
>do you think eugenics benefits mankind?
Technically, yes
However, it would be more damaging than good as
>the ones with bad genes would be castrated
>birthing rights would be monitored and regularized
>modifying your children would not be considered child abuse
>government and businesses would create their own super soldier and perfect employee breeding programs
And so on.

I'm not taking that, bruh

>>11618638
Consequences of certain actions ARE the reason why we hate ethics in the first place

For example:
If science has no ethics, then that means it would be able to produce extremely great results at small amounts of time but at the cost of experimenting on the lower classes. This act of idiocy would cause great divide and strife between the intellectuals and normal people that would also lead to massive deaths on both sides. Bear in mind that the lower classes have absolutely nothing else to lose as they are going to be experimented on anyway.

In the end, we have ethics BECAUSE we know and fear the consequences

>>11612992
Scientifically, a person who is in a vegetative state is still a person.

>>11614352
True

>>11612967
I suspect the sudden rush of DMT that occurs in a fetus, around the time gender can be determined, is the moment at which the soul (or equivalent unique consciousness) enters the body.

>Defining personhood based on moral convenience

>>11612967
Nah, being a "person" is to have a sense of self, which a fetus does not have.

>>11619388
Depends on the situation, if it's due to damage to the nervous system but their brain is otherwise intact then yes. If it's due to severe brain damage then no, and people in this state can and do get their life support system shut off even though euthanasia is usually illegal.

I believe it becomes an individual when it could live outside of the womb without outside help such as life support - is it life inside the womb? Yes am I against abortion no I am against abortions as a last ditch birth control there are plenty of ways to prevent pregnancies if you are that worried about it - I believe abortions should be okay in instances where the babies life or the mothers life is in a lot of danger - or if suppose in cases of rape however im not sure how often this actually happens and would probably encourage a lot of false rape accusations

>>11612967
It's a human, but whether or not it's a person is a cultural question, not a science question.

>>11618598
good bait combinations just work
half a worm and a marshmallow to float it, never fails

>>11612979
Unironically this

>>11612979
Upvote.

>>11618386
>A sperm contains only half the genetic information

"Genetic information" is not what makes us valuable as persons.

That's a philosophical question, not a scientific one.

>>11612967
Reguardless of wether or not its a "person" I suspect future generations will look at carrying a baby until your visibly pregnant then having it killed and removed as a barbaric act. Sad considering we already have things like the morning after, birth control pills, and physical barriers to insemination like condoms.

>>11615922
imagine giving a fuck about a piece of paper lmao

Just another way of correcting irresponsible behavior. Condoms, birth control, and morning after pill. All of these circumvent surgery to remove a fetus. Oh, but you babies complain condoms don't feel as good. Your poor peenie weenie. Disgusting procedure.

>>11612979
This but without the
>given to them by God

>>11612979

Unironically this

>>11618021
this