/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11579543
FIRST FOR FUCK PROPELLANT D*P*TS

>Space nerds on Twitter are freaking out over possible banned from cover Demo-2
https://twitter.com/nova_road/status/1251622398631325696

haha

>>11579546
Seems reasonable to me. It'll be a shame if this launches and people aren't legally able to gather to watch. At the very least, insiders should be able to take part, even if health-related concessions need to be made. They would provide more insightful reporting than reciting "american astronauts etc."

Wuhan Flu has killed SLS and will kill Starship soon too.

>>11579670
SLS's construction is widely distributed in a similar fashion to how the space shuttle was built.
Starship is literally just built in a fucking texan beach with a bunch of shacks for people to sleep in. They've basically isolated themselves from the kung flu.

>>11579546
This isn't a big deal

The point of spaceflight reporting is spaceflight is obscure. But if it's worthy of mainstream media attention that problem goes away. Why watch the launch on a smaller outlet when watching it on a major network is a much rarer experience?

I know these spaceflight guys want to get close to the rocket as superfans, but they can't change the virus situation

>>11579670
Baby’s first weak bait.

Oh shit bros it's the tiles

Aren't these supposed to be mechanically fastened instead of glued? How do you keep the tank sealed on every attachment point?

Is Starship big enough to loft a manned solar sail craft in one go or would we need to assemble in orbit?

>>11579920
mounting hardware down low

Is the three-generation-rule of space stations valid, or is it just conjecture?

>>11579543
u Down with OPD?

not science or math
>>>/n/

>>11579958
please explain

>>11579958
It's bullshit contrived to discourage people from building space stations. Between Salyut, Skylab, Mir, the Shuttle, and the ISS, we've had space stations continuously in orbit as a species already, and Gateway is another one in the works.

>>11579968
/sci/ has always had an /sfg/ doofus

>>11579981
muh appeal to history

>>11579968
We talk about the science of space flight in general, not just transportation in space.

>>11579970
That over the lifetime of the inhabitants of a space station or planetary colony (no terraforming) said inhabitants will get more lazy with maintaining the crucial equipment necessary to keep them alive eventually causing a major failure that results in the death of the station/colony. This process is assumed to happen on average three generations with the only remedy being regular influx of new members from outside the station/colony or a very strict culture of maintenance.

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacecolony.php#threegen

>>11579979
What makes you think that it was made to discourage space stations?

>>11579990
>What makes you think that it was made to discourage space stations?
The only people who ever cite it and agree with it have preexisting biases against space travel and seem to also be the sort of people to denigrate the power of home schooling and family trades.

>>11579998
Home schooling creates weirdos with no social skills

>>11579999
he posted on 4chan late at night

>>11579958
Pretty sure the thing you can't validate until you build a space station inhabited by 3 generations is conjecture

Literally had never heard of this because its a literal what idea from a literal who. Just build another one. I don't need to use anything my grandfather used on earth even though I can.

>>11580003
I only go here for /sfg/

>>11579543
>The Big Space Frot

>>11579810
All its key components are made in LA and shipped over

Oh no

>>11580054

>>11580062
It’s got a retard cap now?

>>11580067
Retard cap then. That was the original pitch for a capsule when they were still thinking that they'd be building Falcon 5 as the priority vehicle over Falcon 9.

>>11580054
The current version looks like a dragon's head from that angle. It needs a paint job to match.

>>11579670
this. china is the only nation with a realistic chance at getting to mars. i hope they pull it off.

>>11580095
>this. china is the only nation with a realistic chance at getting to mars

Lol
China is nowhere close to a Mars mission, and is an evil country you should want completely banned from space, so you must be joking.

>>11580122
they have more launches than the US, a higher rate of development and a better tech industry. they are the only ones with a chance. also nice feeding on american propaganda.

>>11580095
>>11580132
Don't stop believing until we stand up Old Glory on the Martian highlands, Chang.

>>11580134
im sure invading all those third world countries and bullying your allies for pocket change will get you real far.

>>11580144
Pretty sure that's China's current schtic. Typical communists, always projecting their motivations and intentions on others.

>>11580132
Virgin Chink vs Chad SpaceX

The Voskhod 1 crew (Mike D, Adrock, MCA)* did not have pressure suits on board. Are there any other historical examples of a human spaceflight without available pressure suits?

Tragically, following their heroic defeat of the Intergalactic Squid Monster by piloting the excellent Planetary Giant Robot, the trio later died after having defected to the United States and been victims of the Apollo 1 disaster (l-r: MCA, Mike D, Adrock).

>>11580157
>my car was heavy so that counts!
>nevermind the fact that the CNSA has been launching more rockets and accomplishing more in their missions
americans are pathetic.

>>11580132
>they have more launches than the US

Literally irrelevant. Tossing satellites into orbit and ferrying humans around are very different things operationally, technologically, and legally.

> a higher rate of development

Quantify this.

> and a better tech industry

Quantify this.

> they are the only ones with a chance.

Pretty sure it was American boots which walked on Luna, and I’m also pretty sure that it’s America ( and Russia as a sidekick) that maintains a 400 ton space station and has put the most astronauts into orbit in general.

China has, what, two tiny space stations which deorbited years ago?
America’s just the best, and that’s a fact that triggers half the planet.

>>11580155
China isn't invading anyone, retard.

>>11580157
Flying trashcan is indeed heavy.

>>11580155
like that time china invaded iraq for oil?
or when it invaded Afghanistan because they needed to secure the drug trade?
or what about when they threatened to invade venesuala because they didnt want a US backed puppet destabilizing the country with a coup?
or when they started rebel groups to destabilize syria?
or how about when they constantly threaten iran for daring to build up their military to prevent invasion?

face it, mutt. the world hates you.

>>11580195
Launching little satellite and probe payloads is not comparable to launching men and it never will be, sorry.

SpaceX just released new Crew Dragon's interior video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjSb_b4TtxI

>holy shit

>>11580203
>Chad America beats the shit out of terrible third world countries
>Virgin China makes vague gestures of owning a little sea, still mogged by the US military in every aspect

>>11580207
Anon that’s from four years ago lol

>>11580199
>Literally irrelevant
your shitty car doesn't count as a satellite, mutt.
>Quantify this.
more rockets, more development programs (j-20, hypersonic vehicles, more lunar missions, only country with its own space stations).
>Quantify this.
more tech companies with a higher output and more impressive products than american sectors.
>Pretty sure it was American boots which walked on Luna
because you kidnapped a german to do it for you. frankly its an insult that a regime with such a bloody history such as the US has set foot on the moon (if their claims are true). but hopefully when china lands on it, they will right that wrong and wipe any evidence they did clean.

>>11580217
>when china lands on it

road closures announced, testing soon!
https://www.cameroncounty.us/space-x/

>primary
april 20, 23, & 26
>backup
april 27 & 28

>>11580210
china doesnt have to invade (and then promptly loose and retreat from) third world shitholes because it is actually competent at maintaining and acquiring new allies and partnerships. for example, my country has agreed to purchase 5G equipment with deals for more partnerships in the future. from just one deal my country already has better internet than all of the USA, and its thanks to china.

>>11580217
>Seething racist communist shill lies on 4Chan, episode 6

>>11580210
>can only do asymmetrical warfare
>chad

>>11580225
The last time anyone tried to fight America “conventionally” was the beginning of the Iraq War in which Saddam’s army was completely obliterated with few US casualties.

>>11580224
>l-lies american stronk
go die of bat aids.

>Current year
>Still peddling the propaganda that any war in the Middle East was for control of oil

>>11580223
>omg based communist dystopia gave me fast internet so I can watch more cuckold porn in HD I’m sure glad they put those Uighurs in cages

Our resident Chinese shill is angry.

>>11580236
>oh no, terroist cells are being punished
also Americans
>holy fuck, some kid just got caught with weed and he isnt handing it over to officer gonzalas? YEAH KILLEM

>>11580240
>All Uighurs are da terrorists

You actually fell for literal communist propaganda and you’re not even in that country holy shit

>>11580217
BTFO commies

You heard it here folks, all Chinese Muslims are in terrorist cells or terrorist cell adjacent, which is why it's A-okay to reeducate them about the glory of Winnie the Pooh's regime and to harvest a few of their unwilling selves for organs every now and then.

>>11580231
There ain't anything conventional about shock and awing your enemy before engaging him. Post-WW2 US can't do shit without cruise missiles and aircraft carriers.

>>11580252
>The US wins its wars through gratuitous use of power
>BUT THAT'S NOT FIGHTING A REAL WAR
Absolutely seething.

>>11580258
>gratuitous use of power
>BTFO by strawhat farmers
cope

>>11580252

>>11580248
If every single muslim were to be brutally murdered in their sleep overnight I wouldn't even bat an eye.

>>11580249
whats wrong, Need Another Seven Astronauts?

>>11580263
>I’m a sociopath xD

>>11580246
>uniornically believes the WMD meme
>says anyone else is falling for propaganda

>>11580263
>le edgelord
Have sex.

It has been brought to my attention that there are chinamen here RIGHT NOW who have not been reminded in the last 30 seconds that Xi Jingping is a dum fathead who looks like Winnie The Pooh.
Lets have a quick rundown on are bear and I’ll let them decide how Xi stacks up next to him, because maybe that's unfair

1. Winnie the Pooh is a fat bear that wears no pants
2. Winnie the Pooh enjoys hunny (honey) and his most famous adventure of all is the story of his retrieving hunny at great risk to himself from bees by pretending to be a raincloud and then enjoying the fruits of his labor obtained by the sweat of his brow
3. Winnie The Pooh (who looks like Xi Jingping) is not a communist
4. Winnie The Pooh has never once lost in a fight to cute little birds that he thought were threatening his power over the Hundred Acre Wood
5. Winnie The Pooh knows what he doesn't know and isn't afraid to ask for help from his frens, which he has
6. Winnie the Pooh’s pal Gopher can innovate and knows the difference between high quality steel and pig iron
7. Winnie the pooh has never massacred citizens of the Hundred Acre wood with tanks
8. Winnie the Pooh maybe has a fat head but he’s actually a very intelligent bear
9. Winnie The Pooh (who, again, looks like Xi Jingping if you put pants on him) is a beloved figure across all of the world and you can gauge a man’s character by what he thinks of Winnie

Decide for yourself.

Can you imagine looking like Winnie The Pooh? A bear that wears no pants. Now I’m a huge fan of Poohbear, but looking like him? What kind of buffoon would allow such a Winnie The Pooh nopantswearing son of a bitch to be the leader of even a local deli, let alone be his slave? I guess what I’m trying to say here is that Xi Jingping looks like Winnie The Pooh, a fat bear that wears no pants, and if I were his subject (slave) I’d kill myself.


And now, back to rockets.

>>11579543
We might actually get something like that from SpaceX in the future.

>>11580249
A South African runs that company, so that is a South African achievement. much like how the moon landing was a German achievement.

So we're either limited to really angry vatniks, *overseas* Chinese boot lickers, or really high level CCP officials who don't get blacklisted from the internet for comparing Xi Jinping to Winnie the Pooh. Good times.

>>11580267
>uniornically believes the WMD meme

I don’t. I actually think it’s justified to invade a nation solely by virtue of it being a dictatorship, which is where I disagree with the government of the United States, which is happy to play patty cake with evil nations like Saudi Arabia for practical reasons.

>>11580277
>*overseas* Chinese boot lickers
It's still only midnight in Hongkouver.

>>11580275
> A South African runs that company

Elon Musk has gone on and on about how the United States is the best country on Earth.

>>11580280
Good point, which reminds me that this is exactly why we're going to need to annex Canada sooner or later.

>>11580266
>>11580271
fuck sandniggers and sandnigger apologists

>ITT

>>11580275
"American" is a state of mind, not an ethnicity or birth place.

The problem with all the immigrants we're getting is that they're not the kind of people who are ever going to be Americans.

>>11580281
making shit up, thats a very american thing to do.

>>11580289
>"American" is a state of mind, not an ethnicity or birth place.
One of the most retarded bullshit I've heard in years, congratulations.

>>11580292
http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript1292.html

> You have been quoted as saying that you are nauseatingly pro American.
>MUSK: Yes, that’s true.

>>11580295
And that's why as long as America holds on to its values, you will always lag behind.

>>11580292
>making shit up

I’m completely serious.
https://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript1292.html

WATTENBERG: You have been quoted as saying -- Elon you came here from South Africa at age 17, is that right.
MUSK: Yes, I did.
WATTENBERG: You were an immigrant -- a legal immigrant --
MUSK: No, no -- yes, a legal one. [Laughter]
WATTENBERG: I got to think a lot of illegals add a lot of value to the United States. You have been quoted as saying that you are nauseatingly pro American.
MUSK: Yes, that’s true.
WATTENBERG: What do you mean?
MUSK: Well, I mean, I think the United States is the greatest country that’s ever existed on earth. And I think that it will be difficult to argue on objective grounds that it is not. I think the facts really point in that direction. It’s the greatest force for good of any country that’s ever been.
There would not be democracy in the world if not for the United States. We’re obviously falling in the recent few occasions -- maybe three separate occasions in the Twentieth Century -- democracy would have fallen with World War 1, World War 2 and the Cold War, but for the United States.
WATTENBERG: And perhaps the threat of terrorism would be much greater if it were not for the United States.
MUSK: Yeah, absolutely. I think it would be a mistake to say the United States is perfect, it certainly is not. There have been many foolish things the United States has done and bad things the United States has done.
But when historians look at these things on balance and measure the good with the bad -- and I think if you do that and -- on a rational basis and make a fair assessment -- I think it’s hard to [unintelligible] that the United States -- is there anything better [speaking over each other]

>>11580289
to be american is to be subhuman. see>>11580287

>>11580277
Wouldn't be the weirdest thing I've seen on 4chan. I've shitposted with North Korean geoflags on /pol/ before during the Trump-Kim meetings.

>>11580307
That dude is Canadian, your sloppy Spurdo edit notwithstanding.

>>11580289
>not an ethnicity
Only a small fraction of nonwhites have the prerequisite mindset based on opinion polling data and voting histories. To be capable of being American in spirit is to be white, plus or minus some rounding errors.

>>11580003
>We're all living in Amerika

I'm a little clueless about the long-term plans for the mass manufacturing of the SS/SH. Are Spacex really going to construct an assembly line in tents or are they planning go be like a normal aerospace company and eventually have at least a large factory like New Glens manufacturing facility in Huntsville, with semi clean rooms?

>>11580311
>Are Spacex really going to construct an assembly line in tents or are they planning go be like a normal aerospace company and eventually have at least a large factory like New Glens manufacturing facility in Huntsville, with semi clean rooms?

Why would you waste time and money using “semi clean rooms”?
If it works, it works.

>>11580311
Once prototyping is done, I'm fairly sure they'll move out of the tents.

>>11580307
And to think the Chinese have ever had the gall to freak out about racism from people overseas.

Communist.
Projection.

>>11580309
>Only a small fraction of nonwhites have the prerequisite mindset based on opinion polling data and voting histories. To be capable of being American in spirit is to be white, plus or minus some rounding errors.

IE everyone who didn't bail out of their shithole countries before the commies or Islamists took over. I wouldn't strictly call it a white mentality, because today's ethnic Germans don't seem to understand the notion very well either.

chinks SEETHING lel
stick to lying about diseases you bugs, let US handle actual stuff

>>11580319
>today's ethnic Germans don't seem to understand the notion very well either.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that no ethnic Germans living in Germany really ever understood the notion of Western Liberal Thinking; they enjoy having a strict set of rules to follow too much.

Can we drop the histo-politics and talk about rockets and space now?

>>11580319
>I wouldn't strictly call it a white mentality, because today's ethnic Germans don't seem to understand the notion very well either.
Many euros don't. Centuries of war and emigration created divergent populations, with those in the USA behaving distinctly different from their cousins back home. World War I was perhaps the worst thing that ever happened to Europe, with a continent's worth of hereditary nobility dying in four years.

>>11580317
But shouldn't they be constructing a factory right now then? I mean it's going to take at least 2 years to build a decent factory, and get the tooling and reconfiguring done. And they want to be making 1 starship every week by 2024.

>>11580309
>making shit up yet again
lol

>>11580319
racism is stereotyping and dehumanization. anti-americanims is just speaking the truth.

>>11580321
you have the highest death and infection rate.

>>11580333
>And they want to be making 1 starship every week by 2024.

They’ve achieved comparable speeds already. With some robotic welds, it wouldn’t be hard.

>>11580330
Sure. Thoughts on plasma magnet drives with beamed-particle stations for flying sunward?

>>11580333
Why waste a lot of money at this stage on tooling when shit can change at a moments notice? You don't understand their process at all if you think they're anywhere near the stage where they decide on what custom tools they'll need for a finished product.
Right now they have all the basic tools they need in tents and shitty halls on site.

>>11580347
>source: dude trust these obviously fake Chinese numbers
No. Begone.

动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门

>>11580275
Lol, chinkbro, if you know anything about America, you'd know that America has a larger German descendant population than even Germany. Most white people in America can trace their family origins to Rhineland

>>11580331
>Many euros don't. Centuries of war and emigration created divergent populations, with those in the USA behaving distinctly different from their cousins back home. World War I was perhaps the worst thing that ever happened to Europe, with a continent's worth of hereditary nobility dying in four years.

Modernism is the branch of thinking that emerged from World War 1 to preach the villainy of Enlightenment philosophy and Europe's historic, more Imperial governments. Modernism's failure to produce anything functional led to Post-Modernism. Post-Modernism's even more dismantled thinking led to the crisis of nihilism and emptiness that plagues society.

I'm convinced that Hitler's Nazis, in spite of being second fiddle to Stalin's Soviets in everything from territory conquered to peoples callously exterminated, is only treated like the biggest bad guy because he had a traditional eye on the value of Imperial and Renaissance styles when he wasn't balls deep into Futurism. The Nazis weren't as bad, they just weren't adjacent to the filthy fucking Communists who took over Academia in the wake of Modernism's failure to construct anything useful with itself.

>>11580297
>>11580305
honestly musk is a genius. buttering up the mutts so they shell out their cash to him. 380 iq move on musks part, sub 70 iq move on the mutts part.

>>11580361
>l-lies america stronk!
be sure to tip your coroner!

>>11580367
Well that and Jews still own the publishing industry and broadcast media.

>be american
>dies from covid

>>11580347
you need to be nuked off the fucking earth, dog eating insect
as I said, leave actual stuff to US & gtfo this board

>>11580370
Feel free to file a handwritten complaint at our office on the moon.

Funny how behind every >mutt
post is some seething ethno-nationalist trying to cope.

Whoosh.

Also, what is going on with New Glenn and Blue Origin? I don't hear much about them. I thought they'd be flying their new glenn rocket by now?

>>11580383
Blue Origin is ambitious about everything except their timelines.

>>11580376
>american starts getting violent when confronted with reality
lmao. clockwork.

>>11580377
im sure we will when we get rid of all the trash you left there. not like you can stop us.

>>11580380
American success stands as a monument to the failure of ethno-nationalism. America is a thriving, powerful nation forged out of numerous European and even non-European peoples whereas the old European nations are decrepit, weak, irrelevant shells with dying, old populations who can only reminisce about their past imperial glories.

>>11580386
>reality
Why is lying the only thing you know how to do?

For me, this was my favorite space anime crossover
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo-Soyuz

>>11579941
You haven't said anything about the performance requirements for this craft.

>>11580390
>America is a thriving, powerful nation
-economic recession
-third world purchasing power
-allies jumping ship day after day
-lost wars to both rice and goat farmers

>>11580391
Chinese culture doesn't value objective truth at all.

>>11580377
>doesn't even have healthcare
>thinks will settle the moon

>>11580390
American success is also fourier transformed into an argument against Imperialism. Honestly, America's greatest innovation is inclusive Imperialism against Europe's, and the rest of the world's for that matter, exclusive Imperialism.

>>11580392
the soyuz was kino. no other space program can match the USSR. we'd have socialist mars colonies if not for regan.

>>11580394
Big enough to carry a crash test dummy to Jupiter with enough sail area to do it in a decade.

>>11580403
america is the most imperialist nation on earth.

>>11580386
the reality in which Trump brought you to your knees in trade war. where half your banks closed due to high interest loans.
that reality?
stick to munching bats, let the adults talk

>>11580409
>Killing evil commies and terrorists is imperialism

>>11580409
It's not the most Imperialist nation on Earth. It's the most Empire-laden nation on Earth, but we really don't enjoy having it very much. The only problem is that we know from experience that we can't trust any of the rest of you bastards to not enjoy every second of it.

>>11579990
>only remedy being regular influx of new members from outside the station/colony or a very strict culture of maintenance
The fucking remedy is that children are taught that the systems need to be maintained or they'll die. In third grade the whole class gathers round an airlock and the teacher spaces the class pet rabbit to show kids why vacuum is dangerous. Trauma, that'll teach 'em.

>>11580416
Bingo. We went home after 1918 and look at the fucking mess we had to deal with 20 years later.

>>11580418
Nuh uh naturally the only way any nation can sustain itself is through immigrants! Immigrants are better than natives right

>>11580385
Do you think New Glenn will be fully operational before Starship/Super Heavy?

>>11580418
>>11580432
And that's why the three generation meme is really just neoliberal open borders assholes trying to ruin space.

>>11580434
I think it will, if for no other reason than Blue Origin wants to have a fully operational system the first time they launch, and their system is not as ambitious as what Starship/Superheavy is trying to do.

>>11580434
Doubtful
Landing is tricky and takes some trial error

>>11580407
Any guess how big the sail needs to be to meet that goal?

>>11580439
Key word there being "fully operational." I think SpaceX has a good chance of putting a Starship into orbit, and possibly even land one, before New Glenn ever launches.

>>11579920
>ablative tiles
so much for stainless revolution

>>11580443
They aren't ablative.

>>11580414
>invading defenseless shitholes because they dont kiss your ass is fighting communism
you niggers propped up communist cambodia because you thought it would somehow get you brownie points against veitnam.

>>11580446
ok then what are those

>>11580434
No. Jeff Bezos has been devoting all his attention to Amazon, whining about Trump, and losing $50 billion in divorce court.

>>11580441
IIRC photon sails are typically a few atoms thick but useful area starts at 1km2.

>>11580443
It was stainless steel with some sort of liquid bleed to keep it cool
But all the plumpin for that is likely heavier than a thin layer of tiles

>>11580451
Insulating tiles like the Space Shuttle's, but a lot tougher, which comes at the cost of providing much less insulation against the heat than the ones the Space Shuttle used. This tradeoff in lost insulation properties is regained by the greater amount of strength retained by stainless steel when it's heated over aluminum or carbon fiber.

>>11580456
the whole point of this rocket was to keep itself cool by not using shields on top.
>>11580457
those silica tiles used on the shuttle are really not heavy ive held one and its like foam.
so w/e

>>11580436
the only way to keep a generational colony working is by having a rigid caste system where each caste is forced into a role in the space station based on power. one will get to command the other classes, the next level will do the maintenance and technical work, the next will be responsible for processing resources and manufacturing, and the lowest will be used for collecting resources

>>11580467
What the fuck are you talking about? It’s not this complicated.
Just educate people to fulfill certain jobs and pay them for it and they’ll do it

>>11580466
The shuttle tiles are very good insulators. They're also very brittle, and can't handle interplanetary atmospheric reentry velocities. SpaceX's tiles are designed to handle much faster trajectories and much higher reentry heating.

>>11580469
but the idea that they will get lazy and distracted is true. all aspects of society and life must revolve around the maintenance and expansion of the colony for it to be sustainable.

>>11580467
Stop sniffing glue and reading communist propaganda. Each family has their own trade and fathers teach them to their sons. Women are rationed to make sure every family reproduces, which is just a return to how marriage worked for all of recorded history before 1900. There, done.

>>11580473
All societies have a similar fundamental weakness. Humans have too much intrinsic need to be selfish to not make allotments for self satisfaction, or else they will rapidly break down.

>>11580473
>but the idea that they will get lazy and distracted is true

No it isn’t. If that were true, society would have collapsed ages ago because we didn’t nurture a bizarre pseudo-religion of garbage disposal. People will fill available jobs on their own.

>>11580472
makes sense

>>11580477
>Humans have too much intrinsic need to be selfish
that is learned, not inherent. having a rigid authority with harsh punishments for stepping outside your role is how you keep the colonists focused.

>>11580477
>nooo enjoying life bad

Cringe

>>11580443
Theyre still going ahead with methane cooling, but only on the most problematic areas.

>>11580475
>Stop listening to commie propaganda now listen to my reactionary propaganda

>>11580479
because our societies wont collapse the second a few people do their jobs remotely incorrectly. space colonies are inherently different.

>>11580481
>that is learned, not inherent.
You are fundamentally and catastrophically wrong. Human selfishness is innate. Your society must expect and successfully accommodate it, or it will perish.

>>11580486
I did not communicate my point very well. All societies need to face the reality that people need a chance to act selfishly, without losing sight of their civic duties.

>>11580500
>Human selfishness is innat
incorrect. this can be seen in historical slave owning societies.

>>11580501
Are you suggesting that slaves were not capable of harboring or exercising any form of selfish desire?

>>11580494
Societies in that model have proven stable for thousands of years absent war, famine, or plague. That is relevant to the discussion of intergenerational stations or ships.

>>11580440
Has Bezos said when they'll start doing landing tests?

>>11580502
no, many slaves acted according to their owners will because their selfishness was never learned due to their upbringing. other slaves learned the trait of selfishness and exercised it by rebelling against their lot in life.

>>11580503
>Societies in that model

Never existed.

>>11580510
They don’t even have a rocket assembled yet
Vulcan is going to launch before them

>>11580513
read a history book sometime

>>11580511
Your understanding of power dynamics is bizarre and reflects inadequate study of human nature. A slave following his master's will is little different than an employee doing what their boss tells them to do - except that instead of being a free man on contract, they're property that is likely to face retribution for not fulfilling their obligations as a slave beholden to their master's will. Even so, this does not change their nature, and they still have wants and desires, and they will act on those desires and impulses as they have a window to do so. If there is no window, their rebellion becomes more overt.

>>11580516
You won’t find any societies like that.

>>11580518
>A slave following his master's will is little different than an employee doing what their boss tells them to do
wrong. an employee does so because they get paid, this is inherently selfish. a slave does so out of fear and obligation, which is without selfishness and the optimum way for a space colony to run.

>>11580525
>a slave does so out of fear and obligation

False dichotomy. Slaves work to get “paid”, as in, get fed.

>>11580532
slaves who do not work starve, which gives fear. you have proven my point.

>>11580525
Both of these statements are non-sequiturs. Being paid is the reasonable and legally required compensation for your labors, based on the value of someone's time in their position of employment. Selfishness and selflessness is a matter of attitude, and both attitudes can be accommodated in either a corporate or slave structure, with varying degrees of individual satisfaction. Selfishness is a state of mind oriented towards one's own desires, not the position of being forced to act for or against those desires.

>>11580533
Your point has absolutely nothing to do with what it means to be selfish or selfless.

>>11580533
>slaves who do not work starve, which gives fear.

Employees who do not work starve, which gives fear.

>>11580537
yes. and an employee is a form of slave. once again, proving my point that slavery is the best form of colonization.
>>11580535
and you have just completely dodged the point in order to try and pass of your idea of a model world as reasonable, when there has never been an instance in history where it has once worked.

This is a really weird argument, because he's right about space colonies: the people living on it must be slaves to the system that put the needs of the colony and others before their own needs in a rigid caste structure oriented towards fulfilling needs, but this is basically describing the average day in a functional military. Anyone can tell you that soldiers have plenty of desires, even if they aren't able to act on them, but this usually does not inhibit their ability to fulfill the mission or look out for the needs of their comrades in arms.

>>11580545
>once again, proving my point that slavery is the best form of colonization

Evil is not the best form of anything

>>11580547
>the people living on it must be slaves to the system that put the needs of the colony and others before their own needs in a rigid caste structure oriented towards fulfilling needs

No.

>>11580551
Yes. A space colony is like a submarine; everything must be rigidly managed in terms of support, and everyone has a rigid schedule to adhere to to make sure everything keeps functioning. Time off, however, is critically important for morale.

>>11580548
it is not evil, it is necessity.

>>11580557
You have not established merit or necessity.

>>11580561
read the rest of the thread. its not my job to spoonfeed you.

>>11580568
I've been here from the beginning. Your argument is not convincing, and is in fact, frankly, nonsensical.

>>11580364
the burger delusion.

>>11580571
then you just cant grasp the very concept of the intricacies of life on another, far more hostile, planet. you should consider reading up on that first.

>>11580554
>Yes. A space colony is like a submarine; everything must be rigidly managed in terms of support, and everyone has a rigid schedule to adhere to to make sure everything keeps functioning

Dubious. Equipment does not fail so often that the entire population has to be focused on it, and resources are not so difficult to acquire that the entire population has to be focused on it either. Humans produce a huge labor surplus thanks to modern technology.

>>11580584
The balance of required labor vs available free time will be different, but the requisite amount of life or death maintenance remains the same. Hell, it's even worse, because even though you need to surface for air first in a submarine, there's no air at all in space. Military adherence to the chain of command is necessary, because everyone's lives depends on it. It does not, however, eliminate the need for free time and liberty for satisfying individual desires, and it certainly won't stop anyone from snagging the last beer in the fridge for themselves.

>>11580579
Read above.

>>11580587
>Hell, it's even worse, because even though you need to surface for air first in a submarine, there's no air at all in space.

Yeah good thing people don’t try to live in the fucking vacuum, and instead in pressurized habitats where oxygen production and CO2 removal can be automated by environmental control systems and some plants.

>>11580593
Did you read literally anything I said, or are you deranged enough to think that shit doesn't break?

>>11580596
Colonist A: The Cyanobacteria brood!
Colonist B: What do you mean they broke? How does bacteria break?
Colonist A: I don’t know man, they just....broke. Fell apart.
Colonist B: This wouldn’t have happened if we had a Cyanobacteria repair man!

Be honest, how many man-hours are actually involved in occasionally checking the conditions of some algae tanks? One human who works as a farmer can produce a huge surplus.

>>11580616
Individually? A pittance. Collectively? A shitton.

>>11580618
Sure, but it’s not like people are living by the skin of their teeth. You could get away with bumbling around and even having many people who don’t do anything

>>11580625
You can have plenty of time for bumbling around. When you start asking why one person is allowed to bumble around while you're stuck slaving away at leaky pipes in a moldy service hallways is when shit starts falling apart.

>>11580633
Someone’s got to do it.

>>11580638
"But why does it have to be me? Why does he get a pass? Fuck this and fuck you."

>>11580640
*BLAM*

Fear ensures loyalty.

>>11580642
Fear ensures compliance. Your brand of loyalty, once it gets to that point, ensures long knives in dark hallways.

>>11580633

>>11580649
Now you're speaking their language.

>>11580645
Crime is always a problem on hive worlds, but the Arbites stand ready to crush any troublemakers regardless.

>>11580652
You're starting to talk about some very big space habitats if you're talking hive worlds.

>>11580657
Money has dubious meaning in any immature space colony without established local private enterprise like shops. You’d either be granting them extra privileges for performing labor or paying dependents who live somewhere else like on Earth.

>>11580400
It's actually cheaper to colonize the moon than it is to pay for everyones healthcare. Still even if the moon base costs over 3 trillion it still advances things more than paying for healthcare. You know once the gov starts doing it they're cutting R&D because it's not something voters immediately see.

Socialism would be the best way to operate a space colony

>>11580666
Go away, satan.

>>11580651
I mean, seriously. Slackers get a bunk, basic rations, and zero data requisition on the deep space network aside from official mail. The boredom and ostracization would force pretty much anyone to get a job.

>>11580661
Extra privileges would have a price, paid back to whatever organization runs the colony or station. Leftover funds could be spent or saved just like they are in our modern day internet banking and commerce regime.

>>11580661
Mexicans often send back most of the money they earn back to their famalies in Mexico while living on the bare minimum. Just let people come back and forth or take vacations back on earth.
The first few colonies are probably going to be military bases anyway. Pruvate enterprise will pop up around the base and then the civillian colonists will show up when they are allowed.

>>11580661
For example, let’s imagine that there’s a job opening for a miner on the Martian moons offered by Rocks Incorporated. John Smith has experience mining on the moon already, and he applies for this job opening and is hired. He then is transported to Martian orbit on the next transfer window and begins his labors, being provided some accommodations by Rocks Incorporated. While unable to make much use of his pay where he lives, Rocks Incorporated can provide the income to his dependents who remain on the moon, where they live. If John Smith were to be fired or otherwise cease to perform his job, his dependents would lose their source of income, providing an incentive for John Smith to perform his duties.

>>11580661
Not much to spend money on at McMurdo besides booze and coffee, but you still get paid for working there.

>>11580692
Yes, and that pay can be used to sustain dependents who live elsewhere, or simply saved up. Failure to perform labors could also result in being blacklisted by the local authorities or even deported. Corporations do sometimes notify other local employers to blacklist former employees that they have particular problems with.

>>11579860
Because normie news media will be shitty at covering this flight.

>>11580333
The 2024 date and production volumes are probably unrealistic, but it doesn't take that long to build more solid structures.
The whole point is precisely to do mass production like heavy industries do, not the clean room thing.

>>11579981
I‘m pretty sure it only started a year and a half ago as welding watch general.

>>11580487
And how would they do that if the shell is part of the tank itself.
I thought they gave up the idea and went with tiles.

>>11580222
>tomorrow
God I love this pace.

>>11580466
>the whole point of this rocket was to keep itself cool by not using shields on top.
The whole point of the rocket is to be inexpensive to fly and Mars capable. Anything that doesn't end up serving that should be axed. Having smoothbrain sunk cost opinions like yours is how you get the Space Shuttle.

>Late Enters a new /sfg/ thread
>Chinese shills/agents arguing with others for no reason
>Muh Burgers
>Long March goes boom again, chinese go REEEEEE
>Something something Mr.Clean
Shit looks just like /pol/

>MFW

>>11580383
The plan has always been 2021 and unless the virus fucks them, they‘re going to make it most likely.

>>11580785
>oh boy over 200 posts of /sfg/ to catch up o-
>...
>oh no
>OH NO!

I hope Blue Origin doubles down on a proper Space Station soon.

>>11580275
And South Africa is a part of the British Commonwealth, so another British victory.

>>11580820
Leaving Br*tish tyranny behind and embarking on an expedition from the new world is literally the most American story there is, limeo.

>>11580804
the absolute state of /sfg/

new thread when?

>>11580325
Wrong

>>11580062
Ah a rare picture of musk before his hair transplant when he still did it a combover.

>>11580816
>I hope Blue Origin doubles down on a proper Space Station soon.
Are you drunk? they dont even have a working rocket.

How hard is it to retrofit a small low powered smelting and processing facility in a few starships and have one of em small boring machines be used to extract mineral rich asteroids? Musk must be thinking about asteroid mining m once he gets his Mars outpost. A starship full of platinum and iridium ores would be worth a lot.

>>11581020
Its better than going to some stupid red planet that doesn't even have an atmosphere or a protective magnetic field, and won't ever be useful other than than being a grave yard for stupid rich people.

>MUH PROTECTIVE MAGNETIC FIELD
I'd fucking go there if only to get away from people like you.

>>11581038
This

>>11581038
>arrives on mars
>everyone there is part of the same cynical ass-hat group that despised each other on earth, but now youre in a locked room with them
only 4 years until the next return window!

I seem to rememebr Starhopper's hop was well advertised and hard to miss right?

I have to go back to work tomorrow and don't want to miss a hop. It would be streamed right?

>>11580983
They will and if they're focussing on orbital tourism a big station makes sense.

>>11581063
No really, things like no protective magnetic field or lack of an atmosphere are technical challenges to overcome, not reasons to stay in the fucking crab bucket forever.

>>11579990
Send 100 generation ships at once, and when one fails along the way every now and then it will be seen by that population as a tragedy which will whip them into shape, plus it's not like they can't (worst case scenario) use the disabled ship as raw materials to build a new one.

>>11581063
>cynical
Who the fuck is cynical here? "Nooo you can't just go to Mars, what about ppppplatinum" or the guy who actually wants to explore and expand civilization. Your nose is showing.

>>11580466
>the whole point of this rocket was to keep itself cool by not using shields on top.
No, the whole point of using steel is that it's the strongest and lightest option, once you take strength at cryo and strength at elevated temperatures into account. Add the much reduced TPS mass required on a reusable stainless steel rocket into account and it becomes lighter still by comparison. Remember that they're building this thing dummy thick right now compared to the final product, which will be welded together by robots and have much smaller margins, and the reason they're choosing the heavier option right now is because they want to rapidly and cheaply get some suborbital and orbital prototypes built so they can work out the problems in-situ and validate the technology before needing to set up the actual factory.

>>11581063
>4 years until the next return window
18 months after landing, actually. From the moment you step foot on Mars you are 2 years from stepping back onto Earth, if you choose to leave of course. Return tickets are free.

>>11581086
Also, it's not like there are asteroids out there with platinum group metals just sitting in lumps. You still need to mine and refine a shitload of regolith, except the regolith on a metal rich asteroid is literally stainless steel, so good luck with that I guess.

Hey guys do any of you know what that site is called where that autist has all the information you could need about pretty much any propulsion system. I seem to have lost it and need it for some research

>>11581142
Projectrho

>>11581148
thanks

>>11580215
Holy shit we can redo the last 4 years of our lives

>>11580333
elon's meme is that you design the factory around your rocket instead of the rocket around the factory. Until they know the final process they can't build it without sacrificing production speed in the long run

>>11581169
>elon's meme
It's also just how production works. Especially with something as massive as SS/SH.

>>11581068
No idea how fast they can hop but it's at least several days or longer

First they'll pressure test, and if it doesn't explode or implode they'll put the engines on it, then they'll do a static fire. If the engines survive the static fire only then can they start hopping.

>>11581186
it's his meme because he forces it, like if you took a shot every time he says "used to be carried like cargo" and "stressed skin" your liver would fail.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1251740004134514689
thank fuck i was worried they were shuttle meme tiles

>>11581218
>like if you took a shot every time he says "used to be carried like cargo" and "stressed skin"
Both of those are from the cybertruck presentation and because pretty much everyone saw the cybertruck presentation I don't think they've even been repeated.

>>11581260
This is probably the least important conversation I've ever had on /sfg/ but if you really need it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ36Kt7UVg

>>11581276
Okay nevermind I'll take your word for it.

>>11579920
>>11581250
>It's called stud welding. You can attach a bolt without creating a hole

That's neat. So not only is it not shitty glue but starship gets some structure from the studs which means the fuselage can be thinner

lol

>when you realize you ill never see shit like this in your life

Seriously, Starship development is already hitting wall after wall. It's pretty obvious already that Elon's plan is just not possible. We will probably see humans on Mars in 30 years but city is a dream.

>>11581418
>Starship development is already hitting wall after wall
not really... it takes them like two weeks to build a new starship from scratch. Even if they trash a hundred prototypes it'll still be faster to a working LV than any other rocket even close to its size

>>11580494
>implying commies aren't reactionaires in the year 2020 Anno Domini

>>11581418
>Seriously, Starship development is already hitting wall after wall.

It's really not. You must be 20 or so if you think anything since Falcon Heavy's boosters landed together has been slow development.

SN3 crumpled 2 weeks ago.

The city is a dream but we will see humans on Mars by 2030. Before Elon's BFR reveal conference we were expecting optimistically to see a manned Mars mission by 2050 at the earliest and a Mars colony within 200 years.

>>11581418
>when you realize you ill never see shit like this in your life
Yeah but not because space exploration is doomed, just because vast megastructures are stupid.
>Starship is hitting wall after wall
No it's not lol, it's in rapid prototyping. Making a steel vessel hold high pressures is not a hard problem, they're just approaching it as cheaply and quickly as they can get away with.

>>11581453
>vast megastructures are stupid.
they're only stupid to you because these days humans are required to build and maintain everything. This is obviously not always going to be the case, be it through self-repairing structures, more sophisticated robots or immensely durable materials/designs.

>>11581418
What is now called the Artemis program was first announced in 1989 to reach Mars by 1994 little Zoomie. You have no idea.

Starlink train seen from the ISS

>>11581418
i now most of you became spaceX groupies after the succes of falcon 9, but you fuckers have to understand that these things take time.
spaceX started in 2002, and the first succesfull launch and recovery of falcon 9 was in 2015.
Starship is going to blow up a lot more before it becomes a succes story like the falcon 9.

>already problems to keep the tanks in one piece

Imagine how much other shit they have to overcome. Look how long it took them to get Crew Dragon in passable condition.

>>11581479
>Look how long it took them to get Crew Dragon in passable condition.
NASA crew rating is completely different
the truth is all rockets are just metal balloons. It's just that everyone else does their R&D in hangars so we don't get to watch all their failures.

>>11581476
Falcon 9 is basically a toy compared to what Starship is supposed to be. I still have hope they could pull this off but Elon's plan is 100% not possible. It will take at least twice as long.

>>11581418
>Starship development is already hitting wall after wall.

You're seeing it through an entirely different lens though because of rapid prototyping

Normally they do all this on paper for years and years until there's a very low chance for the project to fail before building anything. Then there's zero insurance that the design isn't a mistake because no part of it was tested and tested against alternatives. Then it can still outright fail because they miscalculated and assumed they could make something they couldn't, like the X-33

A deliberately shitty built thing exploded a few times and the last time was a procedural mistake, another one is finished in just over 2 weeks, which is the blink of an eye in space engineering timescales. But it feels like forever and a crushing blow if you're checking on it daily.

>>11581486
I still assume starship will get scaled down at some point.

>>11581476
With that groundwork in place things are going to go much faster with Starship, too. They already are. They can already pump out and test Raptors in bulk, which is insane.

>>11581479
>Look how long it took them to get Crew Dragon in passable condition.

Yeah the other anons are right, you really have no experience with what "long" is in spaceflight

>>11581487
>like the X-33

>>11581498
Why? I've only ever heard that rockets get easier as they get larger. Spacex is using basic tools and and ad hoc process to complete large prototypes very rapidly.

>>11581498
Starship is the scaled down vehicle. They're done scaling down, in fact I believe SH was recently slightly scaled up in a revision. Going down just hurts mass fraction, especially with steel construction.

>>11581250
Just had a thought, if the tiles are mounted such that there is a thin gap between the interior of the tile and the exterior of the tank skin, the only point of thermal conduction would be through the stud. Apart from the small hot spot created by the stud, heat could only transfer across via infrared radiation, and since the shiny surface of steel has shitty emissivity it also has shitty infrared absorption characteristics, making it perfect for cutting down thermal transfer. This is why the backside of the vehicle doesn't require tiles, they're only there to cut out the rate of thermal conduction into the skin of the windward side via the compression heating. As long as these tiles don't crack easily this seems like an optimal reentry heat solution.

>>11581297
>some structure from the studs
On the contrary, each stud acts as a moment arm with a load on the end, meaning if anything the skin would need to be reinforced. However it's most likely that no reinforcement will be needed because each one of these thermal tiles probably weighs no more than half a kilogram at most, and half a kilogram hung from a several centimeter moment arm (or three, if the mounting points for these tiles are the same as the ones that were on the Hopper) is not enough force to matter for 4 mm steel.

>>11581418
Just imagine the FUDposting if Starship were being developed at a reasonable pace instead of this hyperspeed program where they are building and breaking and solving problems quickly.

>>11581483
Rockets are fuel tanks, the metal balloon ones exist but are more trouble than they're worth, especially if you're trying for a reusable vehicle.

>everytime you land
>literally every time you land, someone has to say it

>We're coming in hot
>Come on baby, hold together

>>11581555
Whether they like to admit it or not the FUDsters are only in it because SpaceX is exciting to follow just like the fans. If it was like Blorigin everyone would lose interest.

>>11581418
Check this old gem out as lesson on how much patience one needs to keenly follow Spaceflight also just as sunday afternoon treat for my /sfg/ bros.

youtube.com/watch?v=aj89nJBBMzE

>>11581486
Falcon 9 uses much harder to deal with materials (Al-Li alloy hates being welded because with added heat the lithium reacts with everything and if you aren't very good at controlling the atmosphere around it you'll let a very deep aluminum oxide layer form inside your weld, ruining it), it's got honestly shitty design flaws (for example the composite interstage, even Elon has said he regrets not just making it metal all the way, two very different materials with different thermal expansion ratios don't play nice when joined together), it's supplying a very risk-averse customer, and it's only got a 3.7 meter diameter. Falcon 9 has a lot of unfavorable design choices grandfathered in that they can't change now since they 'froze' the design (small tweaks to reusability hardware but no big changes in mission critical elements).

Starship on the other hand uses steel for everything, opening up many more manufacturing methods and techniques. They're developing it completely on their own dime and answer to no other agency, they can change whatever they want whenever they want if it makes the rocket better and easier to build and reuse. Finally, since Starship is very wide, and very tall, the square-cube law is working in their favor, making everything in general easier. A rocket that is twice as massive as another will have a structural mass that is slightly, but significantly, less than two times the mass of the smaller rocket. This is before you factor in the ability to more easily shave off mass if you want to, given the same tooling precision.

>>11581502
Daily reminder that X-33 was a subscale prototype that would have done nothing but a handful of test flights, and Venture Star was the true vehicle design.
They did not build 90% of a reusable SSTO vehicle then scrap it. In reality they built 90% of a demo vehicle that wouldn't demonstrate the required mass fraction, engine performance, or aerodynamic stability minimums needed to even have a hope of building a reusable SSTO vehicle.

>>11581616
It's like being promised a car when you turn 16, and your parents tell you they had 90% of a toy car and threw it away

>>11581633
It's more like your dad always rambled on about his dream project car but the thing would have been far beyond his means if even possible to build at all.

>leaving the planet in its darkest hour
Are they the luckiest men alive?

>>11581737
>Only headed for the old fartbox in LEO
Not really.

>>11581737
What are the chances of astronauts surviving coming back to earth if there is no one to recieve them? If they splash down in the ocean I'd say they are completely fucked.

>>11581418
>Lying on the Internet

Weak bait

>>11581498
They actually scaled it up.

LOL

>>11581791
When /sfg/ says that SLS's budget was grossly inflated, I didn't think they meant this.

>>11581737
>Darkest hour

What???? Lol

>>11581791
Looks fine to me

>>11581791
Just needs a quick top-up of the hydrogen tank, it'll be fine.

Why haven't we really heard much about New Glenn?

>>11581847
Why are you so interested in New Glenn?

Why haven’t we used LIDAR systems on rovers?

>>11581847
Because they're about as tight lipped as the Chinese space program, and they probably don't have much to say/show since they're doing things the oldspace way (i.e. lots of studies and careful growth).

>>11581476
even if the time from nothing to fully functional Falcon 9's is equal to the time between Falcon 9 and Starship, that's still only 2028. They're moving fast, 13 years to the Falcon 9 is incredibly quick compared to much of old space.

>>11581853
How much power does it use? Do we have processors capable of handling the power required that function outside our protection?

>>11581851
For real, why does Jeff Bezos seem like such an irl supervillain?

>>11581855
So long as they're actually working hard.

>>11579543
Speaking of propellant depots. Where would be the best place for a propellant depot to refuel spacecraft heading to and from Earth's SOI?

>>11581853
it's not like they have trouble mapping the surface. I don't really see what it would accomplish in a place with no foliage or atmosphere to mess with traditional methods.

>>11581744
>the old fartbox in LEO
how bad does the ISS smell now that I think about it. 20 years of stale air. God I hope we can bring it down in pieces with starship or something.

>>11581901
>that stale as fuck air of shit, piss, and BO
It's actually pretty disgusting just thinking about it.

>>11581901

>>11581914
Mir was even worse with some sort of mutant fungus growing in the vents.

>>11580515
SLS Block 1 will launch before them at this rate.

>>11581469
holy shit that's cool

>>11581476
I'm greatly looking forwards to watching these Starships explode

>>11581928
Fucking gross

>>11581952
Really hope both actually fly bros

>>11580356
Maybe it's from having sailed on wind power myself or watching too much naval scifi as a kid, but there's something so compelling about the idea of photon and magnetic sails for spacecraft.

>>11582009
Photons don’t confer momentum

>>11581597
it's a miracle that Falcon 9 is as successful as it is, because it's a shitheap, huh
really throws everybody else into perspective

>>11582013
...except for the tiny fact that they do

>>11580356
>>11582009
>people equate space to an ocean in all sorts of sci-fi
>turns out you can literally sail the stars with solar winds and lasers
Huh

>>11582016
>it's a miracle that Falcon 9 is as successful as it is, because it's a shitheap, huh
Its probably the fact that SpaceX optimized the Falcon 9 for cost rather than pure performance that most of the flaws of the rocket could've been mitigated and thus allow it to dominate the LEO market like it did. It didn't matter so much that it's performance was lackluster because it is such a cheap and reliable vehicle.

>>11582013
Yes they do. I've seen it happen. There are desk toy solar mills that demonstrate the effect.

>>11582025
And unlike the oceans, you can set up booster stations along long routes with multi-GW lasers or particle beams (depending on sail tech) to craft your own trade routes given a few rotating hab modules and fusion reactors. Isaac Arthur had a good video on that if you can get around his speech impediment and cheesy CGI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDR4AHYRmlk

>>11582038
>And unlike the oceans, you can set up booster stations along long routes with multi-GW lasers or particle beams (depending on sail tech) to craft your own trade routes given a few rotating hab modules and fusion reactors. Isaac Arthur had a good video on that if you can get around his speech impediment and cheesy CGI.
Yeah, I've seen it. If that's the route that space travel ends up taking, then cool.

>>11582038
>There are desk toy solar mills that demonstrate the effect.
These things?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer
While it's true that photons have momentum, that's not how those work; I had once thought of the same thing as a method of angular momentum control for spacecraft, but they don't work in hard vacuums.

>>11582070
If photons have momentum, why hasn’t the earth been pushed into interstellar space?

>>11582071
If wind has momentum how come people don't get swept into the sky?

>>11581791
Tower was expendable anyway.

>>11582070
>The effect begins to be observed at partial vacuum pressures of several hundred pascals (or a few torr), reaches a peak at around 1 pascal (7.5 x 10−3 torr) and has disappeared by the time the vacuum reaches 10−4 pascal (7.5 x 10−7 torr) (see explanations note 1). At these very high vacuums the effect of photon radiation pressure on the vanes can be observed in very sensitive apparatus (see Nichols radiometer) but this is insufficient to cause rotation.
Awww.

>>11582085
Not him, but it is not analogous. People are not floating in space, we have friction against the ground. If we were just floating and there were any amount of wind, then it would push us infinitely far away.

>>11582095
You do realize that in your tard cosmology, solar wind and small perturbations would do the same thing, right? Gravitationally bound objects don't like to just fling themselves apart at the slightest nudge.

>>11582115
I know my dear friend. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't a good example.

>>11582085
Many reasons, like friction, the limited intensity and duration of the wind, etc.

There’s basically no friction with the interplanetary medium, and the sun’s light has been blowing outward for over three billion years now, so surely earth’s orbit must have increased in it’s altitude over the sun at least a little bit solely because of this

>>11582130
>There’s basically no friction with the interplanetary medium, and the sun’s light has been blowing outward for over three billion years now, so surely earth’s orbit must have increased in it’s altitude over the sun at least a little bit solely because of this
That's probably offset by the sun itself expanding and heating up. That probably did apply to Mars though, once its magnetic field died and the atmosphere got stripped off.

>>11581418
You retard.

some fag made some shit, looks nice if you want something on an extra monitor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG-2t6znLU4

>>11581774
Onionsuz lands on land I thought? so even without anyone to receive them should be no problem right?

>>11581887
Earth's surface. Launch the propellant to orbit aboard Starships as needed.

>>11582033
Exactly. People have unfortunately been equating higher performance with lower cost, because on the face of it higher performance = higher payload. In reality, increased performance comes with greater than proportional cost increase, which usually means the launch vehicle gets either equal economics or worse economics (Some notable exceptions are some of the Russian oxygen rich staged combustion engines, and the Merlin 1D and Raptor engines from SpaceX).

To lower costs, which is the most important thing, taking the approach of lower efficiency and greater effectiveness EVERY TIME. Falcon Heavy for example absolutely RAPES the Delta IV Heavy, despite having significantly less efficient engines on both stages AND being physically smaller.

>>11581566
I wouldn't have it any other way.

>>11582071
The amount of photons you need to bounce per kilogram mass being accelerated in order to speed up by one centimeter per second per second is absolutely enormous. This is why solar sails need to be SAILS and not just mirrors mounted to normal spacecraft. Until you have square kilometers of reflective area per kilogram of spacecraft you aren't getting useful acceleration.

>>11582352
They're going up in a Dragon 2 you dummy.

>>11582095
Earth is not floating (experiencing no net force) in space. If it were, it wouldn't orbit the Sun. Outside of that, Earth is massive.

>>11581469

Just saw them flying over London, really clear. sun set a couple hours ago, the future is fucking now.

>>11582369
And it's still got a ton of compromises because oldspace was the only example to draw from when F9 was conceived and designed. Starship is the first vehicle being designed with a ground up philosophical shift.

>>11582085
well said

>>11582352
Yes, what I had In mind is the fact that usually they are carefully carried out of the capsule as if they were made of glass, are they really that weak after an extended stay in space? Maybe it's just nausea, in that case it is no big deal

>>11582524
>Idiot has never seen something be thrown into the sky by the wind

>>11582529
I thought it was more being as careful as possible. I'm sure it would be hard as soon as they get back but I imagine if it was an emergency they could exit themselves and rest then walk somewhere

You'd have to be retarded to think the SLS is going to be a success at this point.

The thing has been in development for 15 fucking years. (Ares V is the exact same rocket)

It MAY have 1 or 2 launches, but the fucking thing is going to be dead on arrival. $1 Billion per launch, give me a fucking break.

If NASA actually launches the damn thing, it'll take about a minute for the euphoria to wear off, before they realize that commercial vehicles undercut them by a factor of 10. They will then sulk back to SpX/BO and hitch a ride for a reasonable price.

Don't believe me? Here's a few examples of the exact same thing happening in the industry:
- Energia Rocket
- Buran
- Black Arrow

>>11582543
the sole purpose of SLS was embezzling money, and has remained as such to this day

They have no intention of switching to cheaper alternatives, because that goes against the entire fucking reason for making SLS

muskrats btfo

>>11582562
Seeing satellites in the sky is cool lol
It’s good to be reminded of mankind’s imminent domination of the universe.

>>11582562
oh no a comedian is annoyed, my worldview has changed completely

>replying to yourself

>>11582571
not for astronomers

>>11582589
Astronomers don't want to go to moon or mars or in space and have telescope there?

>>11582589
*amateur astronomers

>>11582589
Astronomers are gay. Staring up at the sky achieves nothing. Only flying there will. If they want to look at pretty lights a trillion miles away, they can design a fuckhueg telescope and have it launched on Starship.

>>11582579
>being a schizo

>>11582589
They're already doing the darksat thing to assuage astronomer concerns.
>b-b-but it makes no difference SEE
not in final orbit or orientation

>>11582589
Real astronomy doesn't care about sattelites, if the area of observation is big enough to even have satellites in them they are easily filtered and most of the time they observe a single star or small area of space where a satellite blinking over (which is rare to begind with) wouldn't do any harm.

Reminder that mankind doesn’t serve science, science serves us. It’s a tool, and where it doesn’t improve our reach, our power, and our wellbeing, it is pointless.

>>11582607
thanks for the hot opinions fagtron

>>11582540
Fair enough. Russkies are no longer carrying shotguns in the capsule right? I would certainly appreciate a shotgun in that situation

>>11582589
Maybe they should git gud and build more space telescopes.

>>11582562
Not Mr Big Head Mock the Week man!

>>11582615
It’s a fact. Science without practical application is as useful to society as writing fiction stories.
Astronomy has no practical application past the limits of our solar system, as of now.

>>11582676
It's not a fact, it's a value judgement. Media today doesn't make a distinction, but you shouldn't take that as a green light to do it yourself.

>>11582607

Oh thanks dude I almost forgot

>>11582676
>stop caring about the universe, you need to make me more money
Go stand under an exhaust plume.

It's like you're wearing blinders made of a material that blocks ideas that don't make money. I think maybe tv has been really bad for you.

>>11582694
Reminder.

>>11582692
>ur a Jew cuz u are concerned more with spreading human civilization and bettering human wellbeing than looking at some distant lights

Lol

I mean what if we found a star just like ours, and watched it do some things and then it blew up, and then we see our star do the same things. Would that be a practical application of knowledge? Knowing we have a few hundred years to build some big ships and gtfo? If we listened to you we'd die because we'd never have known.

>>11582694
>It's like you're wearing blinders made of a material that blocks ideas that don't make money.

No one mentioned money until you did.
Like it or not, profitability is the only thing capable of driving human expansion beyond GEO.

>>11582706
>and bettering human wellbeing
This logic is what scrapped the Saturn V in favor of feeding useless apes in cities, so yes, you are a heeb if you don't care about spending money on pure science.

>>11582709
Sol is far too young to explode. That knowledge has already been obtained; the practical knowledge exhausted.

>>11582709
any legitimate research on the sun is preformed by satellites in or outside of earth's orbit, not on the ground

>>11581020
With Starship levels of cheap launch pricing, you could easily make money from mining space metals even if the price crashed on earth-if anything, that would hugely benefit you-a real motherfucker would crash the metal's price like 90%, buy as many of the now bankrupt platinum mines and their claims as they could, and then after gaining a near monopoly let the price drift up to say, 70% of the original. You'd make BANK dog.

>>11582562
Don't worry Dara, they're actually only putting up 40,000 lol
FUCK NIMBYS

>>11582562
Oh no not my night sky!

>>11582709
None of which is done by people on the ground with their 1000 dollar telescopes

>>11582722
I don't think that was a spelling error at all.

Fuck astronomers

>>11582589
boohoo

>>11582676
I disagree that astronomy is useless, but I also disagree with 'preserving' the night sky for the sake of astronomy.
The reality is, by catering to the needs of astronomers, we'd be hampering the expansion of space economy, which if left to grow would result in capabilities that would lead DIRECTLY to the fucking million-fold increase in quantity and quality of astronomical observation data due to the fact that we'd be able to build FUCKOFF HUGE telescopes in orbit, of literally any wavelength, and put them anywhere in space we want. No longer constrained by launch vehicle fairing sizes, we'd just launch parts and raw materials and build/assemble in orbit (probably Earth-Moon L4/L5 because they're easily accessible and not much good for anything else, plus LEO will be quite a busy place for large targets to hang around in).

Astronomers that don't see the increase in space launch traffic as a good thing benefiting their field in the near future for the cost of a minor impact in data today are fucking RETARDS, man. Either they're too stupid to understand the implications of a growing space economy, or they're so far impacted inside their own colons that they really think that space should be designated untouchable and humanity should just die on Earth for the sake of their name maybe appearing on some journal paper about updating known pulsar frequencies due to star-quakes or some other useless bullshit.

Astronomers that don't want more satellites are on par with planetary scientists that don't want manned missions. That is to say, they deserve to be publicly shamed, banished from any position of importance or authority, and summarily executed by CO2 gas chamber for being fucking anti-human anti-progress hypocrite scum FUCKS.

>>11582752
Prices wouldn't recover, scarcity don't come back. It would be like aluminum and quickly go from hyper expensive novelty to commodity. You could nose it and slow drip material to keep the price stable, but I hope they just drop fat stacks on the market and watch the fallout.

>>11582784
based

>>11582786
Well said.

>>11582786
The issue is time for a lot of these people-they're concerned that by the time the wave of ultra-advanced space telescopes comes, they will be retired or dead.

It's selfishness, pure and simple.

>>11582786
>The reality is, by catering to the needs of astronomers, we'd be hampering the expansion of space economy, which if left to grow would result in capabilities that would lead DIRECTLY to the fucking million-fold increase in quantity and quality of astronomical observation data due to the fact that we'd be able to build FUCKOFF HUGE telescopes in orbit, of literally any wavelength, and put them anywhere in space we want. No longer constrained by launch vehicle fairing sizes, we'd just launch parts and raw materials and build/assemble in orbit (probably Earth-Moon L4/L5 because they're easily accessible and not much good for anything else, plus LEO will be quite a busy place for large targets to hang around in).

This. I don’t think astronomy has much use but I don’t see why launch vehicle providers shouldn’t take money from clients who want them to launch big telescopes into orbit. They could be quite large and even have attached habitats.

>>11582786
That's a lotta text but mostly agree. Those satellites are gonna bankroll the only decent shot we have at seeing humans on Mars in our lifetimes. If astronomers wanna see some real shit they should set up an observatory on Olympus Mons.

>>11582813
What about a solar orbit, say as an earth Trojan

>>11582822
The summit of Olympus Mons is in hard vacuum and gives you all the other benefits of land based telescopes if you just attach a pressurized lab to it. Trojan orbits have a nasty habit of collecting asteroids.

>>11582811
Every professional astronomer is taking government money
So when they start pushing space telescopes you get boondoggles like JWST

>>11582822
It's always ground obs guys, I figured they'd want something familiar. Realistically there are a ton of great places in orbit to put telescopes depending on what you're looking for, of course.

>>11582792
Prices wouldn't recover, that's right, however it's not like what some people think. Platinum is always going to be a valuable metal because it's useful, not just because ook eek me want shiny rock. It definitely won't be hyper-expensive of course, but that hardly matters. With Starship levels of launch economy it could be possible to make money off of materials worth hundreds of dollars per kilogram instead of tens of thousands. For example, if platinum prices dropped to $500/kg due to asteroid mining, Starship would still be able to bring back enough platinum (100 tons minimum) to make $50 million per shipment in gross. If the whole operation costs $30 million, that's $20 million in profit right there, and it's only throttled by how fast SpaceX can launch Starships and perform those missions (assuming that the $500/kg price point sticks, which it probably would, because we'd probably find reasons to stick platinum into everything once we had a stable high-volume supply).

My plan would of course be to milk the first 100 ton platinum shipment by selling for 50% of market price, making something around $1.25 billion and crashing the market with no survivors. With all competition from Earth based mining operations undercut and destroyed, and my initial investment in developing and deploying the technology paid for, I'd then drop the price to a point that the market would accept and begin buying in bulk, while I keep on bringing back new shipments of 100 tons each to keep the company in the black.

>>11582826
>So when they start pushing space telescopes you get boondoggles like JWST

That’s their problem lol
Whenever they finish it, SpaceX will be happy to lob it wherever.

>>11582834
>My plan would of course be to milk the first 100 ton platinum shipment by selling for 50% of market price, making something around $1.25 billion and crashing the market with no survivors. With all competition from Earth based mining operations undercut and destroyed, and my initial investment in developing and deploying the technology paid for, I'd then drop the price to a point that the market would accept and begin buying in bulk, while I keep on bringing back new shipments of 100 tons each to keep the company in the black.

Based asteroid mining magnate

>>11582841
Cargo starship should be a godsend to orbital astronomy, since you can get JWST-tier or close to it collection without all of the origami nonsense.

>>11582825
>The summit of Olympus Mons is in hard vacuum
No, even Olympus Mons' peak has enough atmosphere to allow dust particles to be blown up there. The best place for any telescope is in orbit far from tidal forces, because you can build huge and don't have to worry about the mirror being bent out of shape even if it's wafer thin.

>>11582855
Oh yeah, isn’t it’s engineering complicated by it having some weird ass folding mechanism so it can fit in a fairing?

>>11582857
you can build one of those liquid mercury telescopes with gravity, though

>>11582852
The legacy platinum market would flee to state regulators with handfuls of cash and whispers of lobbying gigs and probably try to make you sellnig your platinum almost impossible in most markets in the name of protectionism.

it will be a fucking battle and i can't wait.

>>11582861
Yeah, the folding mechanism was responsible for one of the recent(ish) delays, being both spindly and complex makes it a bitch. The days of ounce-autism cannot end fast enough.

>>11582867
then you just start shifting your ocean landings a few miles towards the coast and hope they get the picture...

>>11582867
Platinum ingots are fungible. That sort of inane bullshit would instantly validate every prepper/goldbug fear about the government coming to seize their wealth, so you'd have armed skirmishes at state line police checkpoints with people running space platinum into the ban states.

>>11582867
I don't think the market is entrenched enough to really make that happen, as much as it would be hilarious to watch. They kinda get away with it with diamonds only because the market is both incredibly entrenched and has "muh natural beauty" to fall back on, but metal is metal is metal.

>>11582883
>airdrops a crate of platinum bars from orbit
heh, nothing personnel kid, just business

>>11582862
Sure, but you can build those on the Moon too, and it's a lot closer. You can also make a telescope with a mirror much bigger than can practically be made using a spinning pool of mercury by using some relatively simple construction techniques in zero G, and those things can actually be pointed.

>>11582861
Also the sunshade, which if you have space manufacturing you'd build out of a few layers of 1mm thick steel or aluminum plate metal instead of origami folded layers of ultrathin mylar and string.

>>11582885
the precious stone racket is hilarious-all it will take is some slick SilVal VC to brand artificial diamonds as the more ethical alternative to the mined sort with a big,dramatic advertising campaign for that whole mess to fall apart. Those cocksuckers have WAREHOUSES full of gems at this point0once their hands are forced on price expect the market ot get absolutely flooded and that shit to drop 95% in value. It'll be great

>>11582906
I just want that to happen for cheap lasers. I want lasers cheap enough to make hunting rifles that kill the deer and cook it in one shot. I want lasers cheap enough for LIDAR mapping drones and Apollo retroreflector bounce to be standard middle school science projects. I want lasers cheap enough for fiber optics to displace copper ethernet for anything bigger than home LANs.

>>11582085
https://twitter.com/KaitMcGrathNBC/status/1050122485876883456
but that does happen sometimes

>>11582914
that styropyro guy's really opened my eys to just how nuts lasers on the commerical market are getting. A true laser rifle is tricky due to te level of power densiy you need, but not impossible. Would you be willing to settle for it working if you have like 35 pounds of batteries in a backpack?

>>11582925
>Would you be willing to settle for it working if you have like 35 pounds of batteries in a backpack?
For how many shots? That's about 500 rounds of .308 plus magazines. If weight per shot is better than that, I think it'd have some real potential.

>>11582914
Shooting deer is wrong

>>11582925
It's not a laser rifle until they can punch holes through people. Right now, maybe with the best tech available you could maim (blind, crater flesh), but putting a bullet through someone is faster.

>>11582941
Shooting deer is necessary. They have no natural predators anywhere without wolves and bears, so without hunting they rapidly overpopulate and wander out into traffic.

Also venison is tasty and their hide and antlers are useful materials.

>>11582941
Take ecology 101 retard.

>>11582947
>Shooting deer is necessary. They have no natural predators anywhere without wolves and bears

Sure, but not strictly recreationally.

>>11581418
You can leave now. Go join the faggots on Reddit/YouTube comments crying every time a prototype gets fucked in the name of science.

>>11582952
>Sure, but not strictly recreationally.
Allowing it recreationally is the most efficient way to get it done.

>>11582958
And generates income. If we just shot durr out of helicopters, it would soak up the forestry budget instead of contributing to it.

>>11582892

>>11582941
We should eradicate deer, wait 100 years, and then clone them from tissue samples, because otherwise chronic wasting disease is going to jump to humans and then we're fucked permanently.