Question about the Hard Problem of Consciousness

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Question about the Hard Problem of Consciousness Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:25:26 2020 No.11516876 [Reply] [Original]

I have been reading and thinking about the Hard Problem during quarantine, and I have a questions I would like to ask.

Suppose we successfully created a humanoid robot such as the one in I-Robot. From the outside, this Robot looks and acts just like a human.

Now suppose someone wanted to torture and kill this robot for fun.

I imagine someone like David Chalmers (or myself) would determine the ethics of this idea on the basis of whether or not the Robot experienced qualia. If I wasn't sure about the nature of consciousness (I am not), and if the robot told me it did experience pain, longing, a desire not to be killed, I would take pause. Hopefully one day we can test for qualia or understand it enough to navigate these potential ethical questions.

My question is, what does Dan Dennett do in this situation? How does he reason? If qualia don't exist, how to we have any hope in determining which 'systems' are okay to dismantle, and which should be protected. I assume Dan Dennett is against killing small children, what about my robot? What about NPCs in Skyrim or Grand Theft Auto? I think I would better understand his position if I better understood his framework here.

Thanks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:29:28 2020 No.11516885 >>11516876 Don't torture shit at all, simple enough you don't torture an insect, you understand that Simply apply that principle to robots, OP

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:29:34 2020 No.11516886

>qualia
i fucking hate people not being blunt and straight fucking forward with their wording. i dont even know what the fuck youre asking because you unload unnecessary amounts of words complicating your communication in an attempt to seem "intellectual". Just fucking say what you fucking mean you cunt

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:31:29 2020 No.11516892 >>11516885 But should I stop torturing NPCs in videogames while I am at it?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:32:48 2020 No.11516897 >>11516886 You don't know what qualia means? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:36:02 2020 No.11516901

>>11516897
once again, huge amounts of unnecessary words. a whole fucking article. A WHOLE FUCKING ARTICLE WITH THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF FUCKING WORDS FOR WHAT? TO OVER COMPLICATE A SIMPLE FUCKING CONCEPT. YOUR PERCEPTION OF THE WORLD. YOUR FEELINGS. YOUR THOUGHTS. YOUR WORTHLESS FUCKING LIFE EXPERIENCE

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:36:09 2020 No.11516902
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>>11516876
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK4ezkrTa6Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-6hosFAObI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRGzJg5A3m8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saLnYMis8JM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3qY5ewHAeo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0Lq9ubiYus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4henADqlFto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_TjrnaMesk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMYlcS7pMT4

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:37:05 2020 No.11516904 File: 43 KB, 400x328, 48957483975.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11516902

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:41:39 2020 No.11516914 >>11516901 You are on a board about science anon. Have you ever read a book?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:44:25 2020 No.11516923 >>11516914 NO. same fucking reason, i need straight forward info fucking NOW. bulletpoints holy fucking shit im not reading anybody's self-indulgent slew of narcissistic horseshit

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:46:40 2020 No.11516928 >>11516923 Well since you are the only one commenting I'll do my best >we dont kill people >we dont kill puppers >we do kill characters in videogames Do we kill robots that walk and talk? How do we tell if its good or bad?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:49:33 2020 No.11516935 >>11516928 >>11516928 >Do we kill humans that walk and talk? How do we tell if its good or bad? forget about robots bro, there's people that need killing and there's people that need to do the killing. WE ARE ROBOTS.

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:52:42 2020 No.11516944 [DELETED]

My personal reductionist point of view is:

All ethics can be boiled down to 1 thing and 1 thing only, respecting the will of others that have will. A AI that truly has a will of it's own will be able to say "please stop doing the thing" assuming it has a method of communication and is aware.

Reducing all ethic to "respecting the free will of others" creates all sorts of new problems that can be addressed by saying time doesn't exist. For instance, you can make a choice today, that doesn't actually happen for years from now. Smoking and cancer is a good example but they're often much more subtle and mundane than that. Just as time choices can be made that effect you later, you need to respect the will of other's for choices they haven't made yet, which is really freaking hard cause we can't see the future.

It all boils down to free will, which is a terrible expression cause it's not free. It's expensive, costly, it can be bartered or traded, or even stolen.

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:56:09 2020 No.11516953

>>11516944
>A AI that truly has a will of it's own will be able to say "please stop doing the thing" assuming it has a method of communication and is aware.

But I can imagine NPCs in Grand Theft Auto 12 that meet this criteria perfectly. And I imagine you would still kill the NPC. How is the robot any different?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 22:57:38 2020 No.11516956 >>11516953 humans have programming just liek robots, it isn't free will to ask to not be killed it is programming whether it is coming from a robot or a living creature

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:00:28 2020 No.11516966

>>11516956
But you wouldn't kill a human for no reason because you probably think its BAD. You probably would kill an NPC for no reason because it would be FUNNY.

A robot is (likely) either CONSCIOUS or it is NOT. It is either analogous to a HUMAN or an NPC.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:02:17 2020 No.11516974 >>11516966 Everything you are saying is subjective and can differ heavily from person to person based on programming.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:02:17 2020 No.11516973 >>11516953 >But I can imagine NPCs in Grand Theft Auto 12 that meet this criteria perfectly But the will that generated the response in GTA 12 came from the programmer. In a way it's the programmer that's saying it, not the AI.

KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:03:24 2020 No.11516977
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>>11516928
Who are you reporting the good/bad to? If it is just to yourself and never has need to be translated to some 'other' then why would those categories matter?

>>11516944
So if you can identify some value in other that is either a fraction or integer of self, respecting that is more beneficial to subsequent moments for symmetry to matter.
>I'll just steal everyone's free will and sell it back to them at below market price. Time to undercut Satan!

>>11516966
How is this any different than saying all expressions of information have an impact on all information that recognizes it? More importantly what would the tax of exchange be if not at least one unit of something?
>t.Elder NPC

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:04:20 2020 No.11516982 File: 151 KB, 1125x681, .00000009.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11516977 go away

KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:05:55 2020 No.11516990
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>>11516974
Yes, all interpreted expression differs between discrete expressors because what makes them discrete is the separation of predicate.
>Wee! Me again! God of Time fucking humanity boogaloo!

>>11516982
It still amazes me that people don't see the difference between namefag and tripfag.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:07:57 2020 No.11516994 File: 56 KB, 500x500, ...53.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11516990 GO THE FUCK AWAY ATTENTION SEEKING CUNT

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:08:52 2020 No.11516997

>>11516974
>>11516973
>>11516973
>>11516974

I am assuming this NPC is itself an AI program.

My original question is concerned with the philosophy of Dan Dennett, Physicalism, and reductive materialism, and how those who subscribe to these philosophies move forward in their reasoning about this problem.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:10:21 2020 No.11517002 >>11516997 >and how those who subscribe to these philosophies move forward in their reasoning about this problem. probably by unloading huge amounts of words without saying anything of value.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:11:59 2020 No.11517010 >>11517002 If you dont believe in qualia, how do you hope to tell if its okay to kill a robot?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:15:21 2020 No.11517023 >>11517010 >If you dont believe in qualia What the fuck makes you think i don't believe in subjective individual perception?

KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:16:45 2020 No.11517024
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>>11517010
Who would want the responsibility of informing subscribers to an information source what is and isn't okay to kill, regardless of the incarnation? It is still ultimately saying 'interrupt a vessel of self-animation'.

>>11516994
WHAT IS ANONYMOUS ATTENTION WORTH AND WHY THE FUCK WOULD I SEEK IT FROM YOU, FAGGOT?

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:18:04 2020 No.11517029

>>11517023
About half the people who think about these things end up not believing in qualia. I dont get it either.

"One of Dennett's more controversial claims is that qualia do not (and cannot) exist as qualia are described to be. Dennett's main argument is that the various properties attributed to qualia by philosophers—qualia are supposed to be incorrigible, ineffable, private, directly accessible and so on—are incompatible, so the notion of qualia is incoherent."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:18:10 2020 No.11517030

>>11517010
>how do you hope to tell if its okay to kill a robot?
let me help put this into perspective for my own individual case. When i see 1 little gnat flying around, i have a feeling of "ya, hell ya. carry on lone wolf. fight the good fight." Because i'm a sucker for fighting against the odds. Now if there's a bunch of those little fuckers, im gonna fucking murder them all beause they fucking made it against all odds and are now a fucking annoyance that needs to be dealt with for me to not be fucking annoyed anymore.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:19:30 2020 No.11517031 >>11517024 >WHAT IS ANONYMOUS ATTENTION WORTH NOT BEING CHASTISED FOR BEING AN ATTENTION SEEKING CUNT STUPID CUNT FAGGOT CUNT FUCK YOU CUNT. YOUR WORDS MATTER HERE, YOUR NAME MAKES YOU A CUNT FAGGOT WHOSE WORDS BECOME FUCKING WORTHLESS

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:20:55 2020 No.11517035 >>11517029 >Dennett's main argument is that the various properties attributed to qualia by philosophers—qualia are supposed to be incorrigible, ineffable, private, directly accessible and so on—are incompatible incompatible with what?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:21:00 2020 No.11517036 >>11516901 You just took more words to say what one word means, you really just mean you don't want people using words you don't know yet, right?

KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:21:26 2020 No.11517038
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>>11517030
So the infinitesimal observer meets the describer of infinity at the threshold of self.

>>11517031
HOLY SHIT YOUR PARENTS AND COMMUNITY RAISED YOU IN A STRANGE WAY! WHY WOULD YOU REDUCE ANY ONE SOURCE OF INFORMATION OR COMMUNICATION BENEATH YOUR OWN IF YOU HOPE TO FIND MOMENTS OF SUBSEQUENT AND BENEFICIAL UNION, FELLOW 4CHAN FAGGOT?!

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:22:00 2020 No.11517039 >>11517030 yeah but do you feel guilty about running over 100 people in GTA? What is the difference between GTA, a robot, and a gnat?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:23:24 2020 No.11517042 >>11517036 fuck no, if you can use it bluntly and coherently i fucking love looking up new words. I can tell when someone is more interested in coming off as intellectual instead of bluntly stating what the fuck it is they're trying to communicate

KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:23:47 2020 No.11517043

>>11517039
That the hardware I simulate the experience on doesn't punish me for my choices, whereas apparently a brain will for actions it ultimately instructs its vessel to perform.

>>11517036
I wonder how deep people dig into the shared mountain of language for their special space cave to be God in.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:24:19 2020 No.11517044 >>11517035 Almost half of philosophers of mind don't believe in qualia or a "hard problem" at all. It baffles me. If you do believe in qualia you are "thinking" about consciousness all wrong in their opinion.

>>	GoBlowYourDadWhiteBoy Mon Mar 30 23:24:26 2020 No.11517045 >>11517031 How do you plan to punish him exactly?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:24:27 2020 No.11517046 File: 247 KB, 1920x1080, lolretard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11517038

>>	KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:25:12 2020 No.11517048 File: 31 KB, 554x554, images (34).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11517042 Expatiate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:28:59 2020 No.11517057 >>11517042 How do you know dumbshit op hasn't already internalized the word qualia? It's pretty commonly tossed about in discussions of conciousness, and has been for a long time. If he has he'd have to be obtuse to come across as blunt to you.

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:30:56 2020 No.11517061

>>11517039
>What is the difference between GTA, a robot, and a gnat?
my willingness to empathize with any of them. the gnat stands out the most because it is a life form and that is something i have in common with it but if it annoys me i could easily kill it. but the same goes for any human that annoys me as well. societal implications need to be taken into account for that though

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:32:17 2020 No.11517063 >>11517048 thanks. i enjoyed looking that up.

KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:33:05 2020 No.11517066
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>>11517057
Why would consciousness have discussion as a barrier to entry/integration/inclusion? Since when was consciousness without irritation? What kind of faggot would work to remove all grains of sand from their woman's vagina with tweezers and a microscope?

>>11517061
Is your willingness to empathize directly related to resource constraints and projections, which could only ever be informed by some predicate provisioning?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:33:14 2020 No.11517067 >>11517057 thx m8

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:34:54 2020 No.11517071 There are a bunch of obnoxious furies completely ruining my thread

>>	KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:36:53 2020 No.11517076 >>11517071 I am the human that conscious thought programmed me to be, what else could I have ever become if not the product of that which came from finger or tongue?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:37:23 2020 No.11517077 >>11517057 i shouldn't have greentexted that words alone, my gripe was with the whole OP. i think i got even moar upset when i looked up qualia only to be bombarded with a whole fucking article that could be simplified to "subjective perception"

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:38:24 2020 No.11517079

>>11517066
>Is your willingness to empathize directly related to resource constraints and projections, which could only ever be informed by some predicate provisioning?
holy fuck i dont even know what the fuck you're talking about
>>11517076
why do you talk liek such a fucking faggot holy shit

>>	KumKum Kookaburra Mon Mar 30 23:43:28 2020 No.11517094 File: 57 KB, 623x492, images (35).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11517077 Mathematically speaking? Qualia = Annulus >>11517079 You and I obviously hang out with different faggots.

Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:49:26 2020 No.11517104

>>11516892
NPCs in video games are just programmed to behave like humans, but you can easily tell that most video game AI is the farthest thing from sapience or even sentience the second you put a wall in front of their pathing.
If that AI could question why they wanted to go to the other side of the wall in the first place and make the determination that it's not worth the effort; that is when you should start asking these questions.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 30 23:51:42 2020 No.11517110 >>11517104 But what is the inherent difference to a physicalist? Where is the line drawn?

KumKum Kookaburra Tue Mar 31 00:00:05 2020 No.11517127

>>11517110
Wherever something/someone else drew said line. You could call a physicalist a circumferentialist.

>>11517104
Unless you program an A.I. to get hungry/horny/lonely those questions will never arise because that is the eternal question set that defines life.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 03:43:48 2020 No.11517484 we have no idea how conciousness is formed or how it works. we have no way of proving other people are concious, we just infer it since we too are concious. thats about all we know about it, everything else is opinion

Anonymous Tue Mar 31 03:49:44 2020 No.11517489

it would be utterly amazing if humanity somehow figured out how to make robots with souls when humanity itself lacks them.
Seems counter-productive in a way, really. What's the issue, torturing and killing animals isn't enough?
Could always just pursue self-harm.

>>	KumKum Kookaburra Tue Mar 31 03:51:48 2020 No.11517491 >>11517484 So it is basically the cookie in the middle of the circle-jerk?

Anonymous Tue Mar 31 03:52:30 2020 No.11517493

>>11517489
>it would be utterly amazing if humanity somehow figured out how to make robots with souls when humanity itself lacks them.
the point is totally the other way around, we need to make robots that close to human but experience no pain.

imagine if everyone could have 10.000 unconditional slaves that are happy to the point of orgasm at hte mere idea of serving you but they just act like that in reality they have no feeligns.

>>	KumKum Kookaburra Tue Mar 31 03:56:50 2020 No.11517497 >>11517493 Sounds awesome! Sign me up famalam! SOUNDS LIKE THE ULTIMATE ECHO CHAMBER OF PLEASURE TO ME!

>>	KumKum Kookaburra Tue Mar 31 03:59:24 2020 No.11517499 File: 52 KB, 395x777, images (6).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>11517497 >>11517493 One proviso: They can only experience such orgasm pleasure AFTER they depart my presence and only return when they choose to do so.

Anonymous Tue Mar 31 03:59:49 2020 No.11517501

>>11517493
that would require some intentional work and unfortunately AI is being spearheaded by deep learning metric shittons of uncurated data mined from the internet because the idea of intentionally designing AI seemed to be too farfetched as-is.

Functional AI is a pipedream.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 31 04:00:19 2020 No.11517502 >>11516901 lmao retard

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