/sci/ - Science & Math

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Why do these diseases not capture the public attention? Because they have existed for long and they have stopped receiving news coverage or never got them. COVID-19 is new and trendy. The masses attend to what is trendy and what the mainstream media tells them to think about, not to what is important. Even public health authorities have jumped into the bandwagon of sensationalism. The problem the world faces currently is the irrational fear of COVID-19 caused by ignorance. I recommend to people who are concerned about COVID-19 to use PubMed to learn about the epidemiological characteristics of other epidemic diseases, then compare COVID-19.

The sanitary measures that are being recommended for COVID-19 is basic hygiene that should always be a part of daily life because there always have been diseases that warrant them.

[1] Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) Situation Report 59 <https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200319-sitrep-59-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=c3dcdef9_2> in WHO web site.

[2] Y. Wang et al. Unique epidemiological and clinical features of the emerging 2019 novel coronavirus pneumonia (COVID-19) implicate special control measures <https://doi.org/10.1002/jmv.25748> (2020) Journal of Medical Virology.

[3] Influenza (Seasonal) <https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/influenza-(seasonal)> in WHO web site.

[4] G. L. Cambell et al. Estimated global incidence of Japanese encephalitis: a systematic review <https://doi.org/10.2471/BLT.10.085233> (2011) Bulletin of the World Health Organization.

[5] Q. Rao et al. Staphylococcu saureus ST121: a globally disseminated hypervirulent clone <https://doi.org/10.1099/jmm.0.000185> (2015) Journal of Medical Microbiology.

[6] I. A. Lüthy et al. A cien años de la gripe “española” [One hundred years after the “Spanish” flu] <https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29659361/> (2018) Medicina.

>>11487405
What about that one article where the they scans of peoples lungs getting eroded permanently?

>Let's do nothing and let this disease, which unchecked can infect the entire human population in 2 months, become seasonal

I'm glad you'll never amount to nobody who can make important decisions, OP.

>>11487405
The spanish flu takes the cake for being a deadly pandemic but drawing conclusions to it is pointless.

The social context that it developed in (WW1) was the biggest factor for its ability to spread rapidly but remain ridiculously lethal at the same time.

The impact of Coronavirus is not being overestimated nonetheless. It’s spread + potentially serious health effects make it incredibly difficult for health authorities to deal with it.

The problem isn’t that ‘its this lethal’. Its the fact that it risks outgrowing the capacity of our healthcare systems. Even with millions of people getting seasonal flu, there are atill enough hospital beds. This is not the case with corona.

>>11487418
>Let's do nothing
Who are you quoting, retard?

>>11487418
Not op but wouldn't it become seasonal anyway? There's no way to get rid of it permanently.

>>11487405
ITT another retard that doesn't understand exponential growth.

>durr there's worse diseases
yes the og SARS was a "worse" disease too. the issue with this is the r0=2.5 and 2 week asymptomatic period equating to an extremely fast exponential growth that cant be stopped without a time machine, inevitably sweeping through 7.7 billion people targetting old people and those with auto immune/respiratory disorders. all projections show that there literally aren't even 1/25th the amount of critical care beds that we will need to accomodate these people once the disease peaks around may.

flattening the curve is an issue in and of itself as well. do we do it to give hospitals more breathing room? flattening the curve means there's a longer period where the hospitals are over capacity however, which is an issue for all the people that don't have coronavirus that need medical attention. so it's pretty fucked either way

>>11487405
jesus op you are fucking stupid.
>the flu infects 33 to 74 times as much as COVID-19 per year
you're comparing a long established disease with a significantly lower mortality rate to covid-19. do you seriously have brain-damage? do you understand that exponential growth means covid will eventually infect the same amount of people? and that it doesn't because it's new?

>japanese encephalitis has ~67 900 cases every year with a 20 %-30 % case fatality rate
do i need to say anything here or can you spot why you are retarded?

>Hospital-related infections are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths per year.
If anything this is an argument as to why covid-19 is particularly dangerous. You aren't making the argument here that you think you're making

>spanish flu was worse
nice. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Relative-Privation

>>11487415
Viral encephalitis leave permanent brain damage. COVID-19 is not even close.

>>11487418
Never did I say to do nothing. Learn to read.

The opportunity to eradicate COVID-19 ended ~1 month ago. It will become seasonal in at least 2 country and have less deaths in the next flu season than influenza. Mark my words.

>>11487431
>ITT another retard that doesn't understand exponential growth.
ITT another retard who does not understand the difference between a logistic curve and an exponential function.

>>11487445
>significantly lower mortality rate
>20 % is lower than 4 %
Retard.

>>11487415
Viral encephalitis leave permanent brain damage. COVID-19 is not even close.

>>11487418
Never did I say to do nothing. Learn to read.

The opportunity to eradicate COVID-19 ended ~1 month ago. It will become seasonal in at least one country and have less deaths in the next flu season than influenza. Mark my words.

>>11487431
>ITT another retard that doesn't understand exponential growth.
ITT another retard who does not understand the difference between a logistic curve and an exponential function.

>>11487445
>significantly lower mortality rate
>20 % is lower than 4 %
Retard.

>>11487427
It will become yet another seasonal disease to add to the list.

post face

>>11487694
Why is it relevant for this thread?

>>11487405
You are a retard.

That 2-4% fatality rate can easily turn into a 6-10% once hospital systems collapse.

And the virus' high Ro, high incubation rate, and large mutation rate are a deadly combination that allows it to spread unchecked at an extremely high rate, and possibly become deadlier in the future.

You are not looking at "another flu".
If it infects anywhere near to influenza levels we are talking about millions of deaths each year.

>>11487405
Reminder that deaths to infections means nothing in the early stages of a pandemic. The only number that matters is deaths to recoveries.

>>11487781
>That 2-4% fatality rate can easily turn into a 6-10% once hospital systems collapse.
Japanese encephalitis has 20%-30% CFR without collapse of health care system.

>And the virus' high Ro
There is no such thing. “basic reproduction number” is a lie to children (in the idiomatic sense) used in the introductory chapters in epidemiology textbook. You were stupid enough to take a parameter of a _toy model_ at face value.

>large mutation rate
*Any* RNA virus has a high mutation rate. SARS-CoV-2 is the only virus you know the name of, I get it.

>You are not looking at "another flu".
Indeed. Influenza is a much bigger public health problem.

>If it infects anywhere near to influenza levels
Possible in principle but unlikely to happen. It has several orders of magnitude to catch up.

>>11487836
> The only number that matters is deaths to recoveries.
Wikipedia has in English such data for China which is well past the epidemiological peak. I can not check their source because it is in Chinese.

>>11487921
>Japanese encephalitis has 20%-30% CFR without collapse of health care system.
Japanese encephalitis isn't nearly as contagious as this, are you being intentionally dense?

70,000 cases annually, coronavirus could have billions (with a B) of infected people just by keeping at the current rates of growth for a couple of months.

>There is no such thing. “basic reproduction number” is a lie to children (in the idiomatic sense) used in the introductory chapters in epidemiology textbook. You were stupid enough to take a parameter of a _toy model_ at face value.
Ok retard. I guess the entire field of epidemiology is wrong for using this term and (You) are right.

>*Any* RNA virus has a high mutation rate.
Depending on the estimates being used, SARS-CoV-2 may have a higher evolutionary rate than what is typical for other coronaviruses.

>SARS-CoV-2 is the only virus you know the name of, I get it
No, I am familiar with virology due to my field of work and study, you are not as smart as you think you are, retard.

>Indeed. Influenza is a much bigger public health problem
This argument is disingenous, made for brainlets who don't understand exponential growth.

A week ago people were mocking COVID-19 by comparing COVID-19's deaths to the chance of getting hit by a lightning strike (6,000 deaths per year). Now COVID-19 has doubled that number in just a week. In two weeks it may double the rate for hepatitis deaths, in a month will match Malaria, and in two months it may double or triple the rate for influenza if left unchecked.

>Possible in principle but unlikely to happen. It has several orders of magnitude to catch up.
Better people than you have looked at the data and arrived to vastly different conclusions.

Don't bother.
Mario is a crazy tranny (even more crazy than normal for a tranner) contemplating diy Facial Feminization Surgery.
Also a total beaner qtpie

>China, a country that deals with these types of infections all time, overreacts, puts cities on lockdown, freezes production and closes roads in mere days
>despite all these measures the virus infects more than 80 000 (reported)
>the west takes it as a joke, spends months quoting the same dumb "it's just a flu" phrases
>never stops and thinks why did China react like that
>never questions that perhaps this thing could destroy a country in a few weeks
>people are still in denial that this is a serious issue

Reality will settle real quick for you guys in the next few days.

>>11487415
Happens with the flu too

>>11487405

>>11487405
Corona-chan pls

>>11488078
>Japanese encephalitis isn't nearly as contagious as this
First you mentioned the supposedly high CFR that COVID-19 _could_ have. When I told you that JE has higher CFR than your worst-case projection, you dodged the point and started talking about contagiousness. You shifted the goalposts.

>Ok retard. I guess the entire field of epidemiology is wrong for using this term and (You) are right.
Straw man. The whole of epidemiology does not hinge on basic reproduction number as a fundamental concept. I have news for you: There is more to epidemiology than making projections based on toy models.

>Depending on the estimates being used, SARS-CoV-2 may have a higher evolutionary rate than what is typical for other coronaviruses.
What is your reference for this claim?

>exponential growth.
All logistic curves look like an exponential functions at first. All continuous functions look an exponential function compared on a short enough time scale. Crying “exponential growth” may earn you some credit with people who do not understand calculus.

>in two months it may double or triple the rate for influenza
In your _toy model_ based on extrapolating assuming exponential growth through the world population. This ignores the effect of change of weather with seasons, increased protective measures and saturation of the population at the highest risk.

>if left unchecked
Which is not the case and should not be.

>Better people than you have looked at the data and arrived to vastly different conclusions.
The fallacy of appeal to authority is the best you could do.

>>11488145
COVID-19 is a public health problem. The point of this thread is not to say otherwise. The point is that there are bigger health problems and that the fear COVID-19 causes is disproportionate and irrational.

>>11487405
>spanish flu comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJrm8V5KmPs

>>11488264
>You shifted the goalposts.
No, retard. Both CFR and Ro are important to determine how harmful a disease it. JE doesn't have the capacity to collapse healthcare systems, the way Coronavirus has.

Sorry for assuming you understood all this without me spoonfeeding it to you, my mistake. I promise I will talk down to you like a child from now on.

>The whole of epidemiology does not hinge on basic reproduction number as a fundamental concept.
Now, THIS is moving the goalposts.
You claimed the term wasn't used in epidemiology at all. Now you are claiming "it's not a fundemental concept" and that "there is more to it". (I never claimed otherwise)

So you ARE conceding that Ro is an actual thing.


>What is your reference for this claim?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339539236_Evolutionary_history_potential_intermediate_animal_host_and_cross-species_analyses_of_SARS-CoV-2
https://www.genomeweb.com/genetic-research/coronavirus-genome-sequencing-finds-distinct-genetic-differences-2003-sars-virus

>All logistic curves look like an exponential functions at first.
The doubling time has been roughly constant at 6 days, meaning we are dealing with an exponential growth function, the rest of your text is cope.

>assuming exponential growth through the world population. This ignores the effect of change of weather with seasons, increased protective measures and saturation of the population at the highest risk.
The protective measures needed to stop that are the ones you are opposing in the OP. Stop contradicting yourself.

>Which is not the case and should not be
I thought it was a nothingburger?

>The fallacy of appeal to authority is the best you could do.
Nah, all your arguments are extremely weak and contradictory.

>the fear COVID-19 causes is disproportionate and irrational
>muh measures against COVID are irrational
>also it's a nothingburger because thanks to these measures we will stop its exponential growth
Which one is it?

>>11487415
And those are from cases that are very rare and severe

>>11488333
this rektage. tripfag on suiwatch.

what worries me about the US response is that there's really no method of "Dealing" with this except people getting infected and becoming immune: There's no cure or treatment and the vaccine will be over a year away.

There's 327 million americans.
there are a little under 20,000 cases currently.
ONE PERCENT of the US population is 3.7 million; This is less than 1/100 of 1% of the population.
Slowing it down so it doesn't overload the Medical sector will take literally a year or longer and you can't just shut the entire nation down for a full year without destroying your entire economy.


The ONLY possible way of dealing with this is putting a fuckton of resources towards expanding our medical capabilities so we can handle more infections (And thus be able to not worry about it ballooning out of control if we ease restrictions in order to "speed things up"), but none of our leaders are doing that for fear of command economy bullshit.

I honestly think it is entirely possible that the coronavirus has been around longer than people realize, and that a portion of the population has already been infected and recovered, and is most likely immune. As no one knew this virus existed months ago, it is highly possible that people got infected and stayed home or went to the doctor and got misdiagnosed as it has similar symptoms to the flu and pneumonia. Not to mention the large amount of people that show no symptoms at all. This means I think, at least in the US, the acceleration phase has already happened and is only now being realized as they start to test. I base some of this on the fact I live in bumfuck America and hadn’t traveled anywhere and I got coronavirus about 2 or 3 weeks before anybody gave a shit about it.

>>11488373
You can think that. You'll just be wrong.

>>11487405
>>11487407
First off, I applaud your thorough research and sourcing which is rare on this site. Second, I do believe that, for the most part, you're ignoring the quickness of this spread. Viruses typically do not spread as easily as the flu. COVID-19 has the potential to reach common influenza-level infectivity and then some. Of the influenza statistics that you posted, the mortality rate of severe cases floats somewhere between 7 and 10%. There are preventative vaccinations that work for about 94% of common influenza strains but there are zero vaccinations for COVID-19. Let us not forget that flu vaccinations are turned down by a lot of people for one reason or another. With the estimations of coronavirus preventative care being 1-2 years of development, we could easily end up with a generation of people who have all contracted it at some point. Unfortunately not much is known about this strain of virus and it could have horrific latent effects that we won't immediately realize. Therein lies the fear of the governments.

>>11487781

>and large mutation rate

wrong

>>11488378
I don’t think you have enough toilet paper anon

>>11488394
it already turned into two different strains.

>>11488396
One roll a day anon. One roll a day.

>>11488398
Not that other anon, but the two different strains have exactly the same glycoproteins on their capsules that your immune system recognizes during a response, so it doesn’t matter. And all of the papers I have read from medical professionals expect those types of mutations to be very rare in those areas. But I’m sure you think I’m making all this up. So whatever.

>>11487415
How long have they been studied to say that it's permanent damage?

>>11488419
Irreversible means permanent

>>11487405
Irrelevant metrics.
Cov19 has killed 1/613000th of population in three months and is growing unchecked.
29.5k confirmed just yesterday to have it.
>OP can't into exponential growth

>>11488419
I assume it’s from the look of the fibrosis being pretty god damn extensive. I’m sure it would heal up a little as time went by. But also remember this only occurred in the most severe cases, which is also what happens with severe phenomena. I had it and I could def see how if you had a fucked immune system or old and weak how it could fuck you up.

>>11487427
vaccine niiger, have you heard of it?

>>11488434
Not that anon but...
when we have a working vaccine come back to me. Till then you're counting your chickens before they hatch.
There's lots of diseases we don't have vaccines for due to issues with the virus.

>>11488434
We have vaccines for the flu too, but it comes back every year and requires a new vaccine

On the one hand, there's the word of hundreds of MDs and other infectious disease experts along with evidence from places hit harder than those directly around me.
On the other hand I have fag OP telling me it's nothing.

Who could I possibly trust?!

>>11488464
I mean I'm someone who believes that the Wu Flu, while an incredibly significant medical concern for anyone with half a brain, is not going to be as bad some doomsayers would have you believe. It's gonna suck, the economy is going to tank, and I'm far more concerned with what's going to come after we start getting ahead of this thing. I mean I've seen people unironically suggest making tracking apps to see if someone has it, or making people who have had it and have gotten over it wear fucking ID tags like we're in some shitty cyberpunk movie from the late 80's. And some of the people suggesting this shiy are medical experts themselves, not just irrelevant pundits and bloggers. But that's besides the point, because this idea that 'the normal flu's more deadly my scro' and 'it's just spicy flu nigga lmao' makes my blood boil. It's outright idiotic, and when you combine retards like that with some countries' abysmal response to the outbreak, things are just going to get so much worse.

>>11487405

>COVID-19 has 209 839 confirmed cases so far with 8 778 deaths [1]; a 2 %-4 % case fatality rate among confirmed cases.
Calculating fatality rate by considering the number of current cases is an incorrect metric.

>>11488443
The reason why there are tons of vaccines for the flu is because influenza as a very large mutation rate but even an influenza virus rarely mutates in the same outbreak, and even more rare to mutate enough so the immune system no longer recognizes it.

>>11488473
If nothing is done 20 million people would die that would have died in 1 to 5 years anyway. That’s the worst case scenario we are looking at if we just lifted all this shit and let it go.

>>11488610
Then the fact that we've done anything at all means the numbers will be mitigated, to some extent at least. We're on the right track even if we got onto it later than we should have.

>>11488419
ards leaves permanent damage most of the times

>>11488613
It’s about riding the line of infection with access to health care for those high risk people. And hopefully not destroying the economy in the process.

>>11488617
Hoping and praying is all we can do I suppose, aside from keeping up hygeine and preparing for the worst if possible

>>11488610
>just let them die lmao
>just let people who have a sudden health problem die because the hospitals are overwhelmed
4chan has corrupted your brain

>>11487405

For the nth fucking time, its not about the fucking mortality rate you stupid fuck, its about thousands of people suddenly presenting with o2 requirements and needing higher levels of care and us running out of anaesthetists to tube them and crit care beds to keep them

For fucks sake its 2020 how the fuck do morons like you still exist?

Are you the same ones who think the USA won in Vietnam because war is team deathmatch?

>>11488650
If we put them down to lessen the sufferage it risks killing the ones that would have survived.
This world STILL IS a terrible place - everyone can't live for ever and resources aren't infinite.

>>11488429
Fibrosis isn't irreversible

>>11487405
You're the kind of person that will downplay the next pandemic because the novel disease has only killed X no. of people so far and coronavirus kills Y no. of people a year anyway... This should have been contained and exterminated at source. As no one took it seriously, it has spread and will very likely become a part of viral ecology bringing more deaths seasonally (all of which were preventable). But sure, it's not as bad as the flu (yet), so let is spread and most importantly DON'T PANIC.

>>11487603
Viral encephalitis is a long-established disease that we have more treatments + resources for

>>11488333
>You claimed the term wasn't used in epidemiology at all.
>that are the ones you are opposing in the OP.
>I thought it was a nothingburger?
I never said any of that. There is no point in arguing with somebody who ascribes me claims I never made. Learn to read.

>>11488333
>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339539236_Evolutionary_history_potential_intermediate_animal_host_and_cross-species_analyses_of_SARS-CoV-2
This paper contradicts the claim for which you pretended to use as a source:
>Bayesian analyses with the tip-dating method using as trict clock as well as constant size coalescent tree prior indicated that SARS-CoV-2is evolving at a rate of 1.24×10^-3 substitutions per site per year (Table 1), in accordance with our prior research and -> similar to that found for other human coronaviruses <-
Once more, learn to read.

>>11488387
>First off, I applaud your thorough research and sourcing which is rare on this site. Second, I do believe that, for the most part, you're ignoring the quickness of this spread.
Thanks. Unfortunately, I could not find detailed statistics on the rise time of other epidemic diseases.

>Viruses typically do not spread as easily as the flu.
True for the ones that do not produce specific respiratory disease.

>There are preventative vaccinations that work for about 94% of common influenza strains but there are zero vaccinations for COVID-19.
Yet despite those vaccinations, influenza has killed more people than COVID-19 in the same timespan than COVID-19 has existed. This is an argument that influenza is a greater public health problem than COVID-19, not the other way.

>we could easily end up with a generation of people who have all contracted it at some point.
This did not happen with influenza (w.r.t. developing a symptomatic infection). AFAIK the single pathogen that comes near this is HSV-1. Around half of the world population has it.

>>11489248
>influenza has killed more people than COVID-19 in the same timespan than COVID-19 has existed
OP you have massive levels of brain rot that cannot be repaired. a disease at the beginning and in the process of exponential growth having infected less people in the same timespan as an established disease means absolutely nothing. how many times do we have to tell you this?

your citations are meaningless if they're all retarded and missing the point

>>11488672
>its about thousands of people suddenly presenting with o2 requirements and needing higher levels of care and us running out of anaesthetists to tube them and crit care beds to keep them
Even if that had happened, with the data we have, it would still not mach influenza in terms of deaths. ~18.5 % of confirmed cases of COVID-19 are “critcal” or “severe” according to [1]. According to the WHO SitRep 59 (cited in the OP), there were 209 839 confirmed cases. That is 38 820 “critical” and “severe”. I have no data on what the CFR would be among these cases if they received no attention. Let us assume 100 % CFR in those cases as a very loose upper bound which is beyond realistic. Then 38 820 people would have died. In the same time span roughly 71 506 people would have died from influenza by a lower estimate: If it was evenly distributed through the year (which is an underestimate, because we are still in influenza season in northern hemisphere), and taking the _lower estimate_ of yearly fatalities (290 000 fatalities per year / 365 days per year * ~90 COVID-19 has existed for).

[1] Vital Surveillances: The Epidemiological Characteristics of an Outbreak of 2019 Novel Coronavirus Diseases (COVID-19) — China, 2020 <http://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e53946e2-c6c4-41e9-9a9b-fea8db1a8f51>..

>>11489258
>at the beginning and in the process of exponential growth
Another idiot who speaks from ignorance. See page 8 of the WHO SitRep cited in the OP. The epidemic curve of COVID-19 does not resemble an exponential function at all.

>>11489013
What is the treatment for Nipah, rabies?

>>11488610
Flooded hospitals are a bad thing. Even if we just take the stress of the staff into account. It's best we try to avoid it as best we can.

Because we have vaccines for the flu and can mitigate the damage, especially to the elderly and those who are immunocompromised. We have nothing for this. If you're someone with a weakened immune system this virus can be deadly and THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO PREVENT CATCHING IT.

I have a friend born with a poor heart. When she was 16 she had surgery that saved her life. She still has a weakened immune system to this day. The only way to make sure she doesn't die is if she doesn't become infected and you people say the panic is over nothing.

The next problem. Italy is already overwhelmed by cases. They don't have enough hospital space for it all. This is not anything at all like the flu because it requires more people that are infected to seek treatment. The flu doesn't overwhelm our health care system every year. You people who keep saying this is nothing are crazy.

“Italy’s mortality rate is almost triple Japan’s,” said Yoko Tsukamoto, a professor of infection control at the Health Sciences University of Hokkaido. “Part of the reason is if you get tested, you get quarantined, so it means that they don’t have enough beds for relatively nonsevere patients.”

japan with facts

>>11489457
>We have nothing for this.
We have chloroquine[1], nucleotide analogues[2] and protease inhibitors[3].

>I have a friend born with a poor heart. When she was 16 she had surgery that saved her life. She still has a weakened immune system to this day. The only way to make sure she doesn't die is if she doesn't become infected and you people say the panic is over nothing.
That organism has a defect incompatible with life. It is literally garbage, pollution of the human species and should be disposed of as such. If COVID-19 kills it then that would be a favor to humanity.

[1] https://doi.org/10.5582/bst.2020.01047
[2] https://sci-hub
.tw/10.1016/j.lfs.2020.117477
[3] https://doi.org/10.3346/jkms.2020.35.e79

>>11489512
>We have chloroquine[1], nucleotide analogues[2] and protease inhibitors[3].
None of which have been shown to have any significant effect.

if we HAD a good actual treatment for this, it would be much bigger news and would be being used in Italy to fix their situation.

>>11490916
>I do not know how to read a paper

>>11489512
>That organism has a defect incompatible with life. It is literally garbage, pollution of the human species and should be disposed of as such. If COVID-19 kills it then that would be a favor to humanity.
While it may be that dark triad types do not have consciousness anyway, I'm more and more convinced they should be humanely quarantined in high security facilities for life, since the benefit to all others would far exceed the cost.

if it really was that bad they would have just skipped human testing of the vaccine

>>11488617
>And hopefully not destroying the economy in the process.
Too late.

>>11491124
You conflate dark triad with petty criminality. It is quite possible to be a great person and leave a positive legacy to humility by somebody who is perceived as "having no consciousness". When one has strong ideals, "consciousness" in the sense of empathy, guilt, valuating other's life is just a burden to implement these ideals. Robespierre did not care about avoiding suffering and did not value human life. He cared about making France and its citizens embody virtue and their lives only as a means for that. To him we owe in great part that we have meritocracy/democracy as opposed to absolute monarchy and the caste system of nobles/commoners.