/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11324077
I am not aware of any non-human ones.

>>11324077
There were civilizations, which collapsed before this one. All of those I know of were more likely human ones. And that is pre-warning to all of us to protect this civilization from collapsing. Or at least preparing to be the arc for the cultural heritage when that collapse actually happens.

>>11324077
there are exactly 0 signs of a human-level intelligence existing before humans. There is nothing in particular that would make impossible, just the very specific conditions which led to the steady increase in brain size of early man. Before you ask, it's also not possible that there was a disaster so disastrous it destroyed all record of them and itself.

>>11324077
the prevailing theory is that intelligent life would not evolve underwater because cooking is required to fully utilize food sources and unlock the kind of diet necessary to feed energy to an energy hungry brain. If you are unable to unlock this kind of diet because you can't make fire and cook food, you will never get beyond the naturally available amount of energy that can be harvested which is not enough to supply a human-level intelligence.

>>11324077
no, even if there were some ancient civilization that disappeared, you couldn't see their traces. In around 1-2 mil years, everything about humanity is gone, everything we have made is ashes

>>11325598
>the prevailing theory is that intelligent life would not evolve underwater because cooking is required to fully utilize food sources and unlock the kind of diet necessary to feed energy to an energy hungry brain
Cite? Sounds like a huge assumption there.

>>11325896
https://direct.mit.edu/books/book/4069/chapter-abstract/168819/Thank-Cooking-for-Your-Neurons?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Without a way to cook food, there is no other natural means by which one may gather or hunt enough energy to feed a growing brain, due to how population regulates the availability of food. This is, of course, a hypothesis and some believe deep sea thermal vents could be used by an under water species to cook food, but at least on earth octopus capable of using tools and deep sea vents have existed together much longer than any land mammals, let alone homo sapiens.

>>11324077
"on" earth?
who knows what is going on on the convex side, and even if it exists at all

>>11324077
Fuck you man. After I went to bed last night I dreamt of seeing this exact thing then I got choked to death by a tentacle coming out of it.

>>11324077
Why Is Atlantis Important?
http://esotericawakening.com/why-is-atlantis-important

Atlantis and the Gods of Antiquity
http://esotericawakening.com/atlantis-and-the-gods-of-antiquity

Ancient Symbols: The Serpent, Dragon & Atlantis
http://esotericawakening.com/the-serpent

Atlantean Pyramids Off The Coast Of Cuba
http://esotericawakening.com/atlantean-pyramids-off-the-coast-of-cuba

War Of The Ancient Aryans/Atlanteans As Described In The Vedas
http://esotericawakening.com/war-of-the-ancient-aryans-atlanteans-as-described-in-the-vedas

Atlantean Aryan Bloodlines
http://esotericawakening.com/atlantean-aryan

Das Vril Projekt And The Inner Earth
http://esotericawakening.com/das-vril-projeckt

Vril And The Power From Atlantis
https://videos.utahgunexchange.com/watch/vril-and-the-power-from-atlantis_pvjIyaHfy9xn6wf.html

The Aryan Consciousness Quarantine Break Out
https://videos.utahgunexchange.com/watch/the-aryan-consciousness-quarantine-break-out_a5d3E5IRvlCKzbe.html

The Quest for Atlantis in the Bahamas and the Caribbean | Lora Little | Origins Conference 2016
https://videos.utahgunexchange.com/watch/the-quest-for-atlantis-in-the-bahamas-and-the-caribbean-lora-little-origins-conference-2016_GZmE2YQLW3bW7T5.html

The Advanced Technology Of Atlantis - Secret Star Mappers Of
https://videos.utahgunexchange.com/watch/the-advanced-technology-of-atlantis-secret-star-mappers-of-the-lost-world-spark_NCujWxHzwtj6ZPG.html

>>11325934
>https://direct.mit.edu/books/book/4069/chapter-abstract/168819/Thank-Cooking-for-Your-Neurons?redirectedFrom=fulltext
I cannot get the full text.

>>11327063
>esotericawakening
hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahaha

no

>>11325590
>>11327063
I knew that making this thread would make all the schizo retards come out, but I hoped I'd get some good answers too. Sad.

>>11327046
I am glad my shamanic power is growing stringer

>>11325805
>In around 1-2 mil years, everything about humanity is gone, everything we have made is ashes
retarded since we have many fossils from dozens of millions of years ago

>>11324077
To add on to the OP question, did squids evolve to their level of intelligence before or concurrent with mammals and birds? I am wondering if theres a chance animals that smart existed before we even evolved

>>11325593
Granted there could have been very very old civilizations that fell similar to how the roman empire did and there remains simply weathered over thousands of years.

>>11325593
>Before you ask, it's also not possible that there was a disaster so disastrous it destroyed all record of them and itself.
I don't know if you meant to say the opposite since this goes a bit against what you said before that but in any case it is possible if it happened long enough time ago.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1704.07263.pdf

>>11327603
cont. or perhaps rather it's redundant for the disaster to be "so disastrous", as long as enough time has passed.

>>11327573
A civilization that only got as far as roman-era technology long enough ago for the plates they were on to have completely been recycled would leave no trace of existence.
However you also have to take into account what the fossil record tells up about the evolution of central nervous systems; the evolution of land plants (specifically fruit and nuts) introducing a larger variety of high-energy, low-effort food sources; and the hypotheses that certain breakthroughs (fire/cooking, thumbs/tools, standing upright, etc) are required to be able to fully utilize those resources to the point where we have excess energy to spend on thinking. If we take these things into account, the earliest anything would be able to develop a human-like brain would be fairly recent geologically.
Obviously the fossil record is just a tiny, incomplete portion of all things that existed, but the suggestion that there exist offshoots of hyper-evolution where things evolved into incredibly complex organisms and then completely died out in a short period of time such as to fall into the gaps of the fossil record is contrary to Darwinian evolution. The theory that living things evolve towards increased complexity is called "Orthogenesis" and is not well thought of and it is still the case that the simplest organisms are the most successful.
>>11327603
It's possible that by examining material on the moon or other ejections that appear to have come from early Earth we might find that there are indications of complex life that evolved and was wiped out prior to the Cambrian explosion, but the idea that a calamitous event wiped out all genetic knowledge of how to form multi-cellular organisms such that it required re-evolving it from scratch is tenuous to me.

>>11327573
Yes, a problem with ancient civilisations is that much of the materials degrade. We have no ideas what kind of society, if any, the Congo bone arose in.

>>11325598
You could lay a couple squid kebabs over a geothermal vent

>>11328439
I guess, but you can't take a geothermal vent back to your home and defend your food from other hungry creatures

>>11324077
Unlikely. There is no evidence that civilizations prior to ours were using large amounts of glass, cement, or steel and it would be ridiculous to imagine an advanced civilization without them. Just what were they making their airplanes and buildings out of? Wood? Rocks? What about their power tools? They didn't have any? They worked on magic? We see a gradual progression of learning in the archeological record from basic tools to better ones.

Just like we don't see mammals in the Precambrian, we don't see airplanes 20,000 BC.

>>11325590
>>11327063
Atlantis destroyed the environment by picking up copper from the soil, which resulted in a massive soil rot (copper prevents decomposition by bacteria, so organic matter accumulated as much as plants were able to survive the low CO2 levels). Which means no architectural remains from before that point, as all collapsed with the soil.

>>11325590
>>11327063
Atlantis destroyed the environment by digging up copper from the soil, which resulted in a massive soil rot (copper prevents decomposition by bacteria, so organic matter accumulated as much as plants were able to survive the low CO2 levels). Which means no architectural remains from before that point, as all collapsed ans got washed down with the soil.

>>11325590
>>11327063
Atlantis destroyed the environment by digging up copper from the soil, which resulted in a massive soil rot. Which means no architectural remains from before that point, as all collapsed and got washed down with the soil.

>>11327063
>utahgunexchange
Wow much source very cited.

>>11328699
There could have been animals that existed like chimanzees, or modern tribes, or neolithic civilizations

>>11329059
>There could have been animals that existed like chimanzees
There are, aren't there? Gorillas, dolphins, parrots, wolves, elephants and pigs are all pretty smart.

How implausible would it be to say something like

>A (now extinct) species of parrot once existed, that was much smarter than current parrots
>They used tools, and achieved some of the characteristics of neolithic civilization

Or, feel free to substitute some other type of species instead of parrot. Especially if it's an ape/monkey. Humans are not necessarily the first time big-brained apes evolved.

>>11329197
I meant to say that lived as chimpanzees. As in an animal that was as smart as a chimpanzee that lived long before the chimpanzee.

>>11325598
>intelligent life would not evolve underwater
Aren't Dolphins like the smartest creatures on earth, if you exclude Humans and their close relatives (other Apes)?

>>11329197
Have we put dolphins in space yet?

>>11329326
What's your point?

We've put chimps in space, plus dogs, which are basically wolves. Although they didn't really DO much, so I'm not sure their intelligence level is relevant. And we presumably didn't put Dolphins in space, because they need water, which would be a technical challenge.

>>11329254
there's no one universally accepted intelligence test, but the barrier we're talking about is the one between tool-using ape and fire-making man. In a relatively short period of time human brains sky rocketed in size—we have no definitive proof as to why. Could those same conditions be replicated underwater? And without the dexterity of an appendage like human hands? Without the ability to make fire and extract extra energy from your food? We'll probably never know for sure, but our most educated guess says probably not.

>>11329472
>there's no one universally accepted intelligence test
Sure. But regardless, you'd agree that Dolphins are either the smartest non-Ape, or pretty close, right? Which indicates that you can get a lot of brainpower underwater.

And there has only been one crossing of the barrier you mentioned, right? Which doesn't really imply you can't do it underwater, since our observations have a sample size of one, right?

So, at best, this is a purely theoretical argument, and we don't observe this barrier limiting the brain size of aquatic creatures, right?

>In a relatively short period of time human brains sky rocketed in size—we have no definitive proof as to why. Could those same conditions be replicated underwater?
I may be incorrect, but isn't the best guess/estimate as to why human brains skyrocketed in size, the ability to use varying food sources, and thus enter widely varying ecological niches? (you kind of alluded to it, with the "cooking" comment)

Humans are native to everywhere from Greenland, to New Zealand, to the Sahara. I don't think that's true for any other large mammal.

Presumably that could be replicated underwater. In fact, it kind of is. Humans catch fish in a bunch of different undersea environments, (and often eat them uncooked, or at least could eat them uncooked).

Plus, I'd imagine there are other ways to get more nutrition out of vegetation, than just fire. Special types of digestion, or other chemical processes, that can operate underwater.

>And without the dexterity of an appendage like human hands?
There are some animals with very dexterous appendages that aren't hands. Octopuses, for example, can do a lot of stuff that humans can't.

>>11324077
If you use the idea that everything humans have made will eventually erode back "into" the earth, then you can use the argument that there could have been a civilization before us, but their structures and materials have all eroded either completely or beyond the point of recognition by us. Only issue I have with this argument is that, just like with extraterrestrials, the fact that its possible doesn't make it true (relax, I do believe in aliens).
>>11328699 This anon is right to extent with his logic in that if there were a civilization at least past the stone age of development most likely would leave SOMETHING that we might be able to find. The issue I have with this is that if someone found something that would rewrite commonly accepted history like that, I'm not sure world leaders would want the public to know about it. Also the fact that even out most erosion-resistant structures/materials (glass, stone, certain metals) will eventually erode to nothing, even if that takes hundreds of thousands of years.

All in all its possible, but the chances of us finding evidence are basically zero.

>>11329533
> Also the fact that even out most erosion-resistant structures/materials (glass, stone, certain metals) will eventually erode to nothing, even if that takes hundreds of thousands of years.
The "old" stuff that we see are not the original object, but impressions, like fossils. And I imagine that if humans disappeared tomorrow, the fossil record would include some of the stuff we make today. Somebody who sunk their car in the river/mud/whatever, has probably fossilized a car.

The more abstract question is

>How do we know that the fossils we've seen are animals, and not technology? Maybe a trilobite was really just a cell phone?

>Even if trilobites were biological, it could have been a result of a civilization whose technology was mostly based on biological engineering, rather than our preference for cement and steel.

Of course, this is dangerously close to belief in extraterrestrial Aliens, or Intelligent Design, and the annoying cultural stuff that surrounds both of those.

>>11329553
Interesting idea, I've never really thought of fossils in that way but that would open up a myriad of possibilities for the different artifacts and rock structures around the world.
Thanks anon.

>>11329530
>we don't observe this barrier limiting the brain size of aquatic creatures
yes, dolphins have very large brains. They have complex social structures, hunt in packs and sort of use tools, but not anywhere close to the tool use of chimpanzees or certain birds. The question isn't "could their brains get any bigger?" it's "does the energy required to maintain a large brain result in the ability to intake enough energy to compensate?" Is there enough extra energy to be drawn out of more sophisticated hunting or foraging without being able to build complex tools?
Special types of digestion or chemical processes would reduce the size of the brain because digestion a metabolically expensive process—the inverse (shrinking of the digestive tract coinciding with growth of the brain) was observed in early humans.

https://discord.gg/FFwRXKq

>>11328699
>>11329533
>>11329572
The most common iron ore we use seems to be basically rust mixed with glass.

>>11328699
>>11329533
>>11329572
The most common iron ore we use is basically rust mixed with glass.

>>11324077
Graham Hancock

>>11330061
Is there any scientists who suspect this cpuld be made by an intelligent form of life?

>>11330061
>basically rust mixed with glass
Cite?

>>11328672
Then build your home around a geothermal vent.
(Not to mention another species could easily not have any advantage at cooking food)

>>11330909
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banded_iron_formation

>>11331387
Interesting stuff, for sure, but I just cannot find that glass part.

>>11331361
how can you build a home if you don't have a big brain yet?