/sci/ - Science & Math

it's a social construct

>>11281992
becuz healthy at any size, racist cishet bigot.

Medicine has solved the obesity crisis. Literally diet and exercise. If you just remove the vast majority of processed foods, cut down meal intake to 1.5-2 meals a day and do basic ass weight lifting 3 times a week and pounds will shed. Americans, however, refuse to accept that health requires sacrifice.

The problem is the Amerimutts

>>11282011
>Literally diet and exercise.
Obviously doesn't work. People diet and excercise to the level that exceeds some sufferers of anorexia several decades ago. It just doesn't do anything except making you tired and weak.

>>11282024
>Obviously doesn't work.
>>>/fit/
The staggering evidence proves you wrong. If these imbeciles "dieting" are doing some new age meme shit because they lack the will to not cheat on an hourly basis, of course they will fail.

>>11282024
Am I falling for bait? This must be bait.

>>11282011
suicide is also easily preventable on an individual level - and yet, nobody butts in with a "just don't jump off the bridge lmao" when someone calls the steadily increasing suicide rate a public health crisis.

>>11282024
It always surprises me how some people can be so completely clueless as to how the human body works

I don't understand obesity
just stop eating you fat fuck

>>11282458
Lmao, they literally do! They hire people patrolling Golden Gate Bridge that literally tell suicidal people standing on the edge "Please don't do it!". Suicide hotlines are basicly the same thing. What I find hilarious about those is that they expect suicidal people to call in and tell them about it! And they fucking do! They freely choose to call in to hear that very message! Does it start to dawn on you that your analogy is DEAD?

>>11282071
I think the can't build muscles -poster is back

>>11282024
are you the same idiot from the other thread?
give it up

why cant amerimutts give up their bacon and hamburgers?

The only purely medical way to combat obesity (excluding dieting and exercise) would just be to load fatsos up on amphetamines.

>>11281992
Medicine (insulin, hypertension drugs, etc) literally keeps obese people alive for decades longer than they should live

Modern medicine loves obesity, they drastically increase medical costs and use far more products and services than normal people. Modern health science is partially responsible for leading to increased weight, with old and still widely believed government-sponsored nutrition recommendations like low-fat and high-carb foods. Remember the food pyramid with fucking bread at the bottom? Absolute garbage. Many of the "scientists" and politicians who pushed that were massively biased and personally believed in those fad diets at the time, the whole thing was a sham. I don't even trust nutrionists and general practitioners anymore.

Look at what the successful fitness freaks and hobbyists do. CICO, BMR, TDEE are more or less accurate and reliable. Fasting and ketosis with high-fat and high-protein foods are useful for controlling diet despite being memes, and they make losing a lot of weight quickly much more manageable. Exercise doesn't actually matter that much if all you care about is weight loss, but it is great for cardiovascular health and muscle strength. Ketosis doesn't mix well with intense exercise, but the exercise will burn any excess carbs you might have eaten to help keep you in ketosis. Weight lifting should be started as early as possible and burns a lot more calories than most cardio, which probably shouldn't be done at high weight because of the stress it will put on your joints.

Of course all of that just makes it easier, it's completely unnecessary if you just fucking eat less.

>>11282772
Also don't take shit like DNP, it can easily kill you. You don't need it.

>>11282772
Why do you think obesity is due to type of food consumed rather than total intake? It doesn't matter whether somebody's eating mainly carbs, protein or fat so long as they match their total energy expenditure.
Also most of your post only applies to the USA where healthcare is largely profit-driven.

>>11281992
metformin for everyone would fix it


>>11283333
its caused by too much insulin. insulin does many things and one of those things is that it takes sugar and stores it as fat, high carb diets increase your blood insulin level and make you store a bunch of fat. Fat increases insulin resistance which causes even higher blood insulin levels when you continue eating a carb heavy diet, meaning for any given amount of carbohydrate you eat a larger and larger ratio of it gets stored as fat directly instead of turned into energy. This is why fat people are always hungry, the food they eat isnt even getting to their cells its just becoming fat directly.

Fortunately metformin is catching on as a 'life extension drug' due to a long term study that found out the diabetics on it were actually living longer than the non diabetic control group and hopefuly soon everyone can get it.


t. type 1 diabetic who started metformin to lower insulin resistance. Im eating more or less identically to how i used to, cut my insulin in half, lost 30 pounds.

metabolic syndrome is caused by too much insulin circulating in your system

>>11281992
In a lot of cases, medicine is the cause of the obesity crisis.
mental patients essentially end up trading the crazy for the fat

>>11283371
Obesity is not caused by too much insulin, it's caused by eating too much food.
If you're a type 1 diabetic how did you acquire insulin resistance?

>>11282002
THIS. People are not happy with their lives. Consumption, virtue signaling, SJW'ing, Nazi'ing, social media, no family, no tribe, no real purpose or meaning, climate destruction, migration/demographic replacement for unending economic growth, obvious signs of cultural decline, etc., etc. make people depressed. Junk food values, vidya, shitposting, pathological tolerance, manufactured outrage, manufactured wars, deep fried sugar pellets, unimaginably degenerate and soul crushing porn, constant masturbation, hedonistic instant gratification, junk food/carbohydrate bingeing, Netflix bingeing etc., etc. will make you catastrophically overweight.

fasting is budget-less and thus profit-less

>>11282772
>Remember the food pyramid with fucking bread at the bottom? Absolute garbage.
It comes from times when it was still common knowledge that eating only bread with little else will make you thin and weak. Something must have changed.
>Look at what the successful fitness freaks and hobbyists do.
Survivorship bias. Those few succesful ones do that. There might be a hundred times more people who also do that, but don't succeed.
>CICO, BMR, TDEE
Nobody knew things like that 60 years ago. Those were things mentally ill people cared about.
>>11283378
Well that isn't the primary cause of obesity, I suppose, but it could be interesting to figure out the mechanism why it happens, if it perhaps could provide some insight why obesity happens who didn't get poisoned by those drugs.
>>11282670
>they told me so, so it must be true
Why are doctors always such fucking retards? Did you punch yourself in the face when the popular child told you so?

>>11282772
>Remember the food pyramid with fucking bread at the bottom? Absolute garbage.
It comes from times when it was still common knowledge that eating only bread with little else will make you thin and weak. Something must have changed.
>Look at what the successful fitness freaks and hobbyists do.
Survivorship bias. Those few succesful ones do that. There might be a hundred times more people who also do that, but don't succeed.
>CICO, BMR, TDEE
Nobody knew things like that 60 years ago. Those were things mentally ill people cared about.
>>11283378
Well that isn't the primary cause of obesity, I suppose, but it could be interesting to figure out the mechanism why it happens, if it perhaps could provide some insight why obesity happens who didn't get poisoned by those drugs.
>>11282670
>they taught me this, so it must be true
Why are doctors always such fucking retards? Did you punch yourself in the face when the popular child told you to?

>>11281992
Because fat has its own intelligence/spirit and refuses to be averaged.

>>11281992
The budget is spent reinventing the integral

>>11284259
Have I made reality so stupid that people would actually pay me to reinvent 1? Color me impressed with the n-color invariant theorem proof.

>>11284241
>get bootyblasted in different thread
>create new thread to get buttmad again
diet and exercise you fat ball of shit

>>11284342
No I didn't.
>diet and exercise you fat ball of shit
Why do you keep insisting on that when it must be completely obvious to anyone that overeating is not the cause?

>>11284348
oh yeah? public your research fatso, prove the world wrong

>tfw chubby chaser

>Fat man goes to doctor
>Doctor: You’re fat, stop eating and start exercising, it’s all about balancing calories in/out
>Fat man: Lmao that requires effort, why can’t medicine cure obesity
Fatties like to deny that medical treatments include lifestyle changes, with these having basically no side effects or risks compared to drugs or surgery.

>>11284388
fatties just want sexual confidence

>invents the sexual confidence handgun

>>11284373
What research? The evidence is so overwhelming there is no need to do any research, it's obvious that obesity is widespread and spreading. In some places there are no normally sized people any longer - it's either massive health buffs, or equally massive fatsos, no normally sized people in between. Have you seen some hunter gatherers? They are FUCKING TINY people.

And it isn't just the fat, it's bones and eyes as well. We are unnaturally big, and our eyes grow too big as well (no hunter gatherers are myopic. Not that they die early, they just aren't.) It's should be completely obvious something wrong is going on and it isn't that people decided to eat themselves to death.

>>11284393
>In some places there are no normally sized people any longer - it's either massive health buffs, or equally massive fatsos, no normally sized people in between.
Do you have data on that?

>>11284393
>no need to do any research
where do you think you are

>>11284400
>Do you have data on that?
Data on what? People getting massively overweight? Where is your data, BTW? Can you link any studies, with:
One or more groups, on a caloric restricted diet, who lost weight
a control group, on the exact same diet, fed ad libitum, not losing any wieght?

At least we know the food industry is trying optimize the food for being hard to stop to eat. Not hard to imagine this contributes to obesity. Couple this with gradually more sedentary lifestyles (many factors contributes to this) and it's not that surprising that we have been getting fatter. Mlght be some other factors as well, but I haven't seen evidence for it.

>>11284416
>Data on what?
That particular claim of yours which I quoted. This claim is somewhat different than the one you are talking about now.
>People getting massively overweight? Where is your data, BTW?
On what? I haven't made a claim! I do not at all deny that we have been getting fatter and we agree on this. Data seems to be in the OP anyways.

>>11284431
If you mean people being either overweight or super muscular, I admit I don't have any data on that. People lost any idea what normal means, look at some old photos. people used to be much thinner than today.

I also mean that particular claim.

>>11284416
What you're asking for doesn't make sense. If people aren't eating the same amount of food then its not "the exact same diet"

>>11284400
>Do you have data on that?
I bet an american would get locked up and force fed if they were as thin as half of the people in these videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvqx3_AOATo

>>11284439
>If you mean people being either overweight or super muscular, I admit I don't have any data on that.
To be fair, the data in the OP does kinda imply it when I think about it. When the amount of overweight men is laying stable on 40% and obsese men is increasing to 40%, extremely obsese increasing to 5%, then there are only 15% left for all other body types.
>>11284449
Yeah, probably. These people look legitimately underweight though. At some point you just get malnourished. But I guess there are many malnourished overweight people in America, because a lot of the food is junk. And that's probably is another part of the puzzle. Not to mention that people get addicted to these foods. May it be that they are engineered to induce this, or that we are living in a society that makes us vulnerable to addictions of all kinds.

>>11281992
it is not my business

>>11282024
>I'm fat and lazy.

science poorly understands epigenetics

>>11281992
Why can't you stop being fat?
Or you die and take yourself out of the gene pool.
Problem solved

>>11284348
Post body. Give proof that your claim is true.

>>11284695
No idea what claim if mine would my body prove.

>>11284609
You poorly understand the concept of not stuffing your goddamn face.

>>11281992
Calories in, calories out for sheer weight loss
Fruit, vegetables, fibers and exercise for actual health

>>11281992
>nearly half of men have been considered overweight since the 1960s
Perhaps this category was poorly defined and should have been reconsidered?

Eating non-processed food and regular fasting are things the modern world forgot after world war 2.

>>11285089
Perhaps. Do you know how it is defined?

>>11281992
Am I the only one who finds it extraordinary for the rate of overweight people to be completely uncorrelated to the rate of obese ones ?

>>11285113
Yes, with some more or less arbitrary formula developed in the 1950s and subsequent categorization.

>>11285118
No, I do too, but I am not sure what conclusion I can draw from it yet.
>>11285121
>Yes, with some more or less arbitrary formula developed in the 1950s and subsequent categorization.
What formula is that?

>>11282024
Lol, retard

>>11285089
>>11285113
>>11285121
>>11285141
From wikipedia:
>Adolphe Quetelet, a Belgian astronomer, mathematician, statistician, and sociologist, devised the basis of the BMI between 1830 and 1850
>Commonly accepted BMI ranges are underweight (under 18.5 kg/m2), normal weight (18.5 to 25), overweight (25 to 30), and obese (over 30).
>BMIs under 20.0 and over 25.0 have been associated with higher all-causes mortality, with the risk increasing with distance from the 20.0–25.0 range.
So yeah, totally arbitrary stuff.

>>11285089
>>11285121
>>11285173
So your solution to the obesity crisis is to just change the definition of obesity?

>>11285230
They went to the Ajit Pai school of statistics.

>>11284764
>Poor english
Alright, I'll explain it in detail. A claim was levied against you that you are indeed fat, tacitly implying that your insistence that thermodynamics is somehow wrong stems from the fact that you are fat and lazy and don't want to admit that your own shortcomings are the reason you're fat. On /fit/ we call that particular hypothesis fatlogic, which is consistently refuted with literal mountains of evidence when it's brought up.

I say that you are a fat fuck who can't help but overstuff himself with food that is neither nutritious or markedly beneficial outside of being a calorie source. I ask that you post a picture of your body to refute my claim so that we may continue discussion on the main topic of MUH GENETICS and the discipline and delusion crises.

youtube.com/watch?v=A7na2H3MJvg

>>11281992
The best medicine is the one you don't have to take. Eat proper food and use your damn legs more often. I'm seriously baffled at how in gods cock shit like pic related is even possible. Sometimes it feels like America is some kind of giant lab used to test how far the low IQ spectrum of Humans can be pushed into degradation.

>>11285118
>>11285141
Presumably it means that the number of overweight people haven't changed, it's just people who are overweight have become more and more likely to be grossly overweight.

For a simplistic model, it suggests that a population consistts of two submembers- people who are liable to be overweight and people who are not. The former category has over time started indulging even more and more, and thus we have more obese and grossly overweight people. However, the ratio of people with the ability to avoid being overweight to the ratio of people without this ability has remain unchanged.

>>11285375
>>>11285141
>Presumably it means that the number of overweight people haven't changed, it's just people who are overweight have become more and more likely to be grossly overweight.
The overweight category doesn't comprise the obese, as the number of obese women is higher than that of overweight women.

>>11285294
>your insistence that thermodynamics is somehow wrong
?
Basically what I'm saying is there is something wrong with the food (most likely a missing nutrient) that prevents the body from burning carbohydrates and fats correctly, making it burn protein instead. (and basically starve even though you are still fat)

>Poor english
my english isn't perfect, but here if = of

>>11285118
some that used to be normal become overweight, others that used to be overweight become obese. It seems rather unremarkable to me.

>>11285502
>anon asks for body pics
>fatanon still provides no pics

Classic

>>11281992
Eating is fun and replaces not having wife and kids.

>>11285502
> that prevents the body from burning carbohydrates and fats correctly, making it burn protein instead.
>making it burn protein instead.
This is an actual falsehood. Your body doesn't have mechanisms that burn protein over fat. It has several mechanisms that cannibalize protein from your muscles and other essential systems when it is completely out of lipid reserves, and additionally every source of sugars that your body has. There isn't a person alive without a severe, life-threatening genetic disorder whose body burns protein before fat at 200lbs+. You're just lying and I would like for you to produce two studies, or even tabloid articles, that suggest that an overweight person's body breaks down protein before lipids while there are still lipid reserves to draw from.
Your singular point that has any validity is that the body of an obese person does not burn carbs or fats correctly. This is mostly due to unbalanced hormone levels (including insulin), which is almost one for for caused by poor dietary habits.

While I will agree that the horrific dietary practices and misinformation the PDA and CDC have given the American population is to blame in part for the meteoric rise of the obesity epidemic, the lack of self control of individuals is squarely at the fore.

Thermodynamics does not lie. CICO is an unpleasant truth for fat people. Your body does not cannibalize muscle before fat. Barring actual genetic anomalies, this just doesn't occur.

>>11285400
derp, read the graph wrong, thanks

I guess it requires some more thought

>>11285230
Lmao!

>>11285375
>>11285400
Anon number two here! Makes sense!

>>11285710
Do you knwo how proteins/enzymes work? Many do not work alone, but need an additional substance (typically a transitional metal ion) to work. Without this cofactor, the enzyme just will not work, even if it's genetically perfectly normal. You don't need a genetic defect to get scurvy.

>>11282024
Diet and excersize doesn't mean you still get to have a plate of brownies every day

>>11285502
>Basically what I'm saying is there is something wrong with the food
I mean, you might be right on this, but it's probably a bit different than what you think. Junky and processed foods that is made to taste as literal sex in the mouth. These are foods that are super easy to get addicted to. In fact, the companies making this food tries as best as they can to get you addicted to them. These foods commonly have a shitton of calories and salt, stuff the body regularly and urgently needs quite a lot of to keep going. This is why your body craves them so much. These food also tends to be have too little of the other less urgent micronutrients your body needs to function over time. Thus it isn't a problem with all the foods, it's a problem with some of the foods. I mean, it might be that pesticides and shit fuck up non-processed foods to some degree (I have never seen a study showing a link between pesticides and obesity), but those are the foods used to make processed foods anyways. Processing is an additional layer of fuck and most likely a much more significant one with regards to obesity.

That said, it is certainly possible to get fat when eating healthy non-processed foods if you eat like a beast (go easy on the nuts and sweet fruits!), but it is generally much harder because the foods generally will contain drastically less calories per unit weight or volume. You will feel full on fewer calories.

>>11285825
>Do you knwo how proteins/enzymes work? Many do not work alone, but need an additional substance (typically a transitional metal ion) to work. Without this cofactor, the enzyme just will not work
The amount of malnutrition required to activate autophagy of muscle tissue is absurd. Even trace amounts of the myriad required elements for gluconeogenesis, lipolysis, or even gluconeogenesis is enough for them to function nominally. Fuck, even the lactic acid produced by your muscles is recycled for usable energy sources before your muscles get cannibalized.
To achieve such malnutrition that NONE of the extremely robust system the human body uses to turn lipid reserves into energy would fucking kill you by other means. Don't imply that someone can "accidentally" maintain a functioning life (that is to say, without immediate and persistent medical care) and somehow be bereft of EXACTLY the nutrients they need to get any of the fat they're hauling around to turn into energy before their muscles get used.
The human body has been refined for upwards of two hundred thousand years. Fat people don't just happen upon the holy grail of bad diets that magically make some fifteen different energy production cycles, several of which overlap and support each other, all simultaneously stop working in favor of the literal FINAL one used to keep the brain, heart, and lungs functioning in times of absolute and prolonged caloric deficit.
Fuck off with this shit. What you're suggesting is asinine and you're defending bullshit for the sake of being argumentative.

>>11282024
Fucking retard

>>11285825
Post. Body. Fatty.

>>11285904
I'm the guy on the right sans stroke, my Chad co worker keeps asking if I want to hit the gym after work. I feel like I should take him up on it.

>>11285927
The worst you can do is go, not like it, and never go back. I'd recommend you at least try. As long as you don't let him push you super hard and let you set your own limits, it should all work out.

>>11285825
Which enzymes involved in metabolism of fat and carbs require metal?
You know it's quite obvious that you're making things up

>>11286152
Are you trying to deny the existence of metalloenzymes?

>>11286152
http://biochemical-pathways.com/#/map/1

>>11286487
Which specific enzymes are you referring to, and how are they involved in fat and protein metabolism?

>>11286488
Link doesn't work

>>11286492
Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha
hormone-sensitive lipase
carnitine acyltransferase I
carnitine acyltransferase II
lipoprotein lipase

peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha
peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma
peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta
hormone-sensitive lipase
lipoprotein lipase
carnitine acyltransferase I
carnitine acyltransferase II

>>11286492
peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha
peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma
peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor delta
hormone-sensitive lipase
lipoprotein lipase
carnitine acyltransferase I
carnitine acyltransferase II

>>11286492
>>11286492
peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha
hormone-sensitive lipase
carnitine acyltransferase I
carnitine acyltransferase II

>>11286653
I could not find anything about a metal ion being in the structure of these molecules, do you have a source that does?

>>11285294
Based fellow /fit/izen

>>11281992
Obesity is more profitable

>>11286664
If it was known, it would be known.

It's solved

This easy and foolproof answer was discovered decades ago;

-eat heatlhy
-exercise

Science already did. The solution is to stop stuffing your fat fucking face.

>>11282014
Obesity is getting worse all over the world, not just America; for that matter a few of the Gulf Arab & Pacific Island countries have higher obesity rates than the US. The only developed countries that have kept obesity under control are Japan, South Korea, and Singapore. Interestingly Taiwan has not, and has seen it obesity rates rise inline with western European countries.

Breaking down the average Americans diet, the biggest changes are that people eat more fats & more grains. Interestingly, sugar consumption hasn't actually gone up much; in 1962 the average American consumed 520 calories of sugar; 50 years later and it had only risen to 597 calories; that is like a 20 gram difference. Granted, corn syrup might be counted under the cereals section, and explain why that has risen significantly.

https://ourworldindata.org/diet-compositions

>>11287046


520 calories of sugar is still way too much and 20 grams is a huge amount.

>>11287046
I think that the 25% increase in calories MIGHT have something to do with the sudden rise in obesity.

>>11282024
>being this dumb
Energy in, energy out is simple as fuck

>>11287046
3500 kcal per day .. ON AVERAGE? No wonder, kek. I feel guilty when I break 2500 on a day.

>>11282024
>yeah the caloric energy my body uses to survive doesn't come from food because I eat none, I also don't burn any fat to compensate for the deficit, I guess the energy just comes out of nowhere lol
Newton called, he said you better stop talking shit about the laws of thermodynamics.

>>11283437
Turn back now or persist in the doomed world you’ve created

>>11282670
HELLOOOOO NURSE!!!! WEEEWOOOWEEWOOO I NEED YOUR EMERGENCY SERVICES, STAT!!!! CAN I GET A SPONGE BATH, WINKWINKNUDGENUDGE?? ;););)

People are obese because of metabolic disprivilege, not because of how they eat.

>>11287046
"Fats" is too broad a term. It's mostly salad (unlikely) and cooking (more likely) oil, aka a lot more fried/fast food.

>>11287046
"Fats" is too broad a term. It's mostly salad (unlikely) and cooking (more likely) oil, aka a lot more fried/fast food.

HFCS (soda and others) is a huge one also.

>>11282670
No but actually can I get more info on pic related? Reverse image searches yield nothing

>>11288336
>>11288366
Stop bothering us with your lemons, scurvy is caused by microbes.
>>11288366
No, the thing is your body won't burn your body fat and starves instead, because the switch that turns on fat burning is broken.

>>11288511
>that drop in other sugars
That includes regular saccharose and fructose ? Wtf

>>11288500
Not sure if delusional fatty or troll

>>11288500

post your diet and exercise routine and I will pinpoint why you are fat.

>>11288526
Neither me nor the other anon talked about lemons or scurvy. Anon, do you suffer from malnutrition, perhaps?

Let's say it's true that fatties are not fat because of their diet but because of genetics.

Why is not McDonalds, Coca-Cola Company, Nestle and all the other similar companies out of bussiness then?

I mean if everybody is eating healthy and their obesity is just caused by genetics then why are these companies still around?

>>11288565
Should be greentext. Sailors were dying of scurvy long after it was common knowledge among sailors themselves, because "science said" their cures were myths.

>>11288591
But, at least in my case, you're arguing against the laws of thermodynamics. Are you sure that you can hold that argument?

>>11288500
That guy, by the way, is mostly right - except hyperbolic. Starvation is 100% reliable BUT you might have to lose some ridiculous amounts of muscle (the exact proportion, just like he claims, is highly genetically biased, BUT you will not lose anywhere near 100% of muscle). It's the same as how ~40% of people store more energy from fat, ~40% store more energy from carbs, and the rest neither, so not all calories are created equal and while the default diet is pretty carb-heavy, it explains why keto is a revelation to many people. Likewise, some people will have severe problems when starving for even little time (e.g. arrhythmia or heart attacks - it's not the muscle being cannibalized, it's the body wrongly shutting down things too hard which is another genetic disability that's relatively common) but others will be smooth sailing.

>>11286152
I think he's talking about ribozymes and similar mechanisms.

>>11289011
Citations ?

>>11288526
There are multiple switches to burn every source of energy in your body besides your essential tissues, like I said in this post. >>11285882 You are just wrong. There are, in fact, no less than three systems in place to ultimately produce energy from your fat reserves. All three of them failing to activate for any length of time would mean you are so malnourished that you are about to die from other causes, or you have an once-in-a-generation genetic disorder.
Stop this senseless lying. You're not helping anyone.

>>11289011
> Likewise, some people will have severe problems when starving for even little time (e.g. arrhythmia or heart attacks - it's not the muscle being cannibalized, it's the body wrongly shutting down things too hard which is another genetic disability that's relatively common) but others will be smooth sailing.
This isn't starving. These people have overwhelmingly intact fat reserves to draw from. The reason for the biological upset is that they don't have any intake of necessary micronutrients that they're already probably short on. You don't fucking consume nothing on a fast, which is fundamentally different from actual starvation, where your body has depleted energy reserves from stored fat.
In the case than an obese person begins to fast regularly to lose weight, they need to consume: water, salt, and micronutrients (usually in the form of a multivitamin). That's it. The risk of any heart-related issues due to system shock from the massive downswing in caloric intake is reduced to almost zero.
In many cases, both of the medical issues you've mentioned are caused by the extreme psychological stress of the person fasting because they cannot fathom what a day without eating truly entails and become emotionally distressed at needing to use their own willpower rather than their fat fucking fingers to interact with their diet.

>>11282011
>Medicine has solved the obesity crisis.
not even close, genetics is clearly a factor
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6146210/
and yet are barely understood at this point
research the pima indians for example

not saying that "diet and exercise" is bad advice but it's certainly way too optimistic to proclaim "obesity SOLVED!!1" when two people can eat the same diet but turn out differently

>>11289090
>solve captcha, the thing that's supposed to stop spam
>"hurr ur spaming"
Thanks hiro

https://pastebin.com/4Vzpn7fJ

What I hate most is that you anti-science faggots who just spread memes instead of researching the topic force me to dig out random articles every time and I can never find the most damning ones I found last time, so every time I post the quality of my sources worsens.

>>11288517
issa woman

>>11281992

I heard Cocaine can cure obesity

>>11289148
>when two people can have the same treatment but turn out differently
Isn't that the same for all health issues ?

>>11289129
>You don't fucking consume nothing on a fast
I did, for 9 months. Worked wonders.
>These people have overwhelmingly intact fat reserves to draw from.
That doesn't really matter. Genetics says some people's bodies shut down stuff early while others don't. The presence of so or so micros can, as you note, trick the body into not doing that.
>This isn't starving.
You're confusing starving (not having any food intake) and dying of starvation (having no stored fat). Not the same thing.
By definition, starvation is anytime you injest less calories than sufficient to survive, regardless of how much you have in reserve.
>In many cases, both of the medical issues you've mentioned are caused by the extreme psychological stress of the person fasting because they cannot fathom what a day without eating truly entails and become emotionally distressed at needing to use their own willpower rather than their fat fucking fingers to interact with their diet.
Kek'd

>>11289272
No, for some health issues you can have 99.9% of people for which a treatment will work. For obesity it's more like 60% at best by following the most prescribed schedules, although you can probably increase that to at least 80% by properly following the science (unlike the average anti-science skeleton in this thread), it's still far from the efficacy of treatment for most mainstream diseases.
Of course it remains true that countless health issues have very limited treatment options, but for almost all common cases it's really a question of "will it work or not" or "how well" as opposed to "this treatment gave A ulcers and B green hair".

>>11289210
No, it barely affects appetite. In fact eating on coke feels great. Appetite suppression is more of a dopamine releaser thing.

>>11289298
Diet and exercise is a question of "how well". You don't get ulcers or green hair by walking 30 minutes and going back to 2500 calories everyday.

>>11289298
I believe we should just do damage control for the existing obese population and not worry about curing them. The real goal must be to prevent obesity in the future. Preventing children from becoming obese in the first place. It's much harder to stop adults from overeating / eating wrong if they've systematically destroyed their digestive system for their whole lives. The normal rules really don't apply to them because they've done so much damage already. But a hundred years ago obesity didn't exist so preventing it must be fairly easy. We must fix the food industry and teach children healthy eating habits.

>>11289333
>Preventing children from becoming obese in the first place. It's much harder to stop adults from overeating / eating wrong if they've systematically destroyed their digestive system for their whole lives.
Definitely true.
But I don't think we should give up on the currently obese, it's just that there is such intense amounts of popsci out there, even regurgitated by nutritionists, and nobody can afford to give the fatties a 24/7 overwatch for a while to properly quantify what's happening and prove that so and so was cheating on the diet while so and so is simply unlucky and needs harder work for the same results.
Reductionism ("just put the fork down fatty how hard is it to eat 500 fewer calories what do you mean even at 1k calories you don't lose LIAR LIAR LIAR") is not helpful.

>But a hundred years ago obesity didn't exist so preventing it must be fairly easy
This is also true. Clearly something changed in "edibles culture" and since the effect is worldwide, it shouldn't be too hard to investigate. How come nobody is officially doing that?

>We must fix the food industry
As usual, money money money prevents that from being a viable solution. No government is ever going to help fix that either because they get so much money out of the deal.

>>11289347
>nobody can afford to give the fatties a 24/7 overwatch for a while to properly quantify what's happening and prove that so and so was cheating on the diet
there have been studies on this and it's exactly what happens. they simply lie about their intake or, as doctors call it, underestimate.

>Reductionism ("just put the fork down fatty how hard is it to eat 500 fewer calories what do you mean even at 1k calories you don't lose LIAR LIAR LIAR") is not helpful.
I agree that shaming is mostly unproductive. Some really are trying and only fail their diet because it's physically and psychologically painful. Nevertheless, for now counting calories should stay the first step. It does work for many people and when it doesn't it at least opens the door to identifying other problems. To be blunt, as long as people are eating garbage it's impossible to say if there's anything else wrong with them.

>Clearly something changed in "edibles culture" and since the effect is worldwide, it shouldn't be too hard to investigate. How come nobody is officially doing that?
Such studies rarely uncover anything new. Sugar content, types of sugar, additives that mislead the taste buds so the gut prepares for nutrients that never come etc. Sedentary lifestyle plays a powerful amplifying role but only in those with genetic predisposition. Everyone's problem today is that there's no one size fits all lifestyle and finding one's own is difficult, luck-based and only feasible once you're independent by which point over-eaters are already obese.
I believe the long-term solution to all illnesses is genetic diagnosis aided by machine learning. Genetics are the blind spot and machine learning is needed to uncover it. The problem with genetic data is the same as with all data. We already have too much of it for a human to make sense of. With AI-interpreted genetic profiles we could fix nutrition for everyone, not just the obese. /wall

>>11288874
You are retarded if you think it's more than a meme. Storing more fuel instead of burning it doesn't break thermodynamics in any way.

>>11289011
You GAIN muscle when the problem is fixed.
You risk starving yourself to heart failure when it isn't.
>>11289107
No, you don't. The fat burning just doesn't work, period. The post above is wrong. It's like an engine without a spark plug. It won't run unless you fix the spark plug. It just won't.

>>11289129
No. You are obese because your body can't burn fat. If you diet, you starve.

>>11289333
Curing adults is harder because the deficiency is more severe, even with supplementation it takes some time. It's virtually impossible that somebody could fix it by accident.
>But a hundred years ago obesity didn't exist so preventing it must be fairly easy.
People were not obese because they weren't deficient. You don't have to go that far, basically only decades ago. It's easy when you know the cause. Impossible when you don't. I do, but the problem is the element is widely believed to be toxic, so I got accused of trying to poison people, being psychotic and I almost got locked up, so I won't bother trying anymore. Let your heart dies in fat.

>>11289347
The joke is you eat the same amount of food, and lose weight once the issue is fixed.

>>11289492
>the element is widely believed to be toxic
yeah, okay, you got my attention. spill it. you're saying there's something believed to be toxic that people consumed in the past and don't any more? tell.

>>11289498
copper
25mg/day

>>11289505
and what's that going to do for me if I'm not obese despite living the modern garbage eating lifestyle with little exercise?

A lot of it really comes down to poor health education. After my school cut gym for some asinine reason, they also cut health education and I ended up getting fat because I would stress eat from getting bullied all the time for being shit at sports. I didn't learn until I was about 19 or 20 how to actually diet and lift effectively and most of that was from /fit/ coming into existence and bros teaching me how to weightlift.

Never at any point in time growing up did anyone ever explain to me how I could actually lose weight. Literally just learning how to count calories from the sticky in /fit/ changed my life.

>>11281992

1. too much sugar/carbs in our diets
2. overeating is a sign of underlying mental health issues which are still undertreated, especially in the US

>>11289554
t. never stress-ate and never was more than a pound overweight.

>>11281992
Because human nature. It'll help once we get to the point where staying fit requires no conscious effort, but there will still be some fatties.

I'm overweight and it's entirely self-inflicted. I have all the tools and information I need to fix it, I just can't be assed.

>>11289289
>By definition, starvation is anytime you injest less calories than sufficient to survive
Whose definition is this?

>>11289298
The reason why diet and exercise does not have an incredibly high success rate is because people are notoriously bad at it. Like quitting cigarettes, most people just give up after trying it for a short period.

>>11289492
>You are obese because your body can't burn fat. If you diet, you starve.
I don't get it, do you think it's possible for a person to die if they stop eating but still remain fat? You think that after millions of years of evolution the human body has just suddenly forgotten how to use energy in the past 50 years?

>>11289708
Well, I could either answer your question, or you could READ THE REST OF MY FUCKING POST.

>>11289749
I've been reading your posts all thread and it's all nonsense.
Trying to claim the obesity epidemic is entirely because of deficiencies or genetic factors and there's no such thing as overeating... Rubbish.

>>11281992
No medicine in this universe could "solve" America.
There is no helping you.
I'd tell you to kys, but you are probably one of the better Amerimutts, so please don't.

>>11289761
We didn't evolve in land deprived of copper, initially by mining, later by intentional removal of copper from processed food. (because the enzyme that causes browning is also dependent on copper, so if you remove the copper, the food keeps looking fresh longer. there are even attempts to breed apples to contain less copper for this exact reason)

>>11289839
You're saying people are obese because of copper deficiency? Come on mate, I can't even tell if you're being serious.

>>11282024
I challenge you to show me evidence of a person who is both starving to death and obese.

>>11289848
diabetic ketoacidosis
protein deficiency
vitamin deficiency
mineral deficiency

>>11289851
People who die of ketoacidosis are not starving to death, and you can live for decades with various sorts of severe nutritional deficiencies.
Show me evidence of someone who is starving to death and is also obese.

I'll save you the trouble - you won't find it. It's impossible. Stomach restricting surgeries being the premiere solution to weight loss are proof of this.

>>11289851
None of those diseases require a person to be obese.
In fact I'd say it would be unusual to see obese patients with diabetic ketoacidosis and/or protein deficiency.

>>11288561
This is a typical friday/saturday for me. I work an office job so I don't get a lot of exercise

>>11289845
Yes, that's what I'm saying and yes, I'm serious.
>>11289848
You can see obese people with muscle wasting and heart/organ failure all the time.
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/490361

>>11289883
Ok well could you care to explain how copper deficiency causes obesity?
Normally I'd ask you to provide proof but obviously that's not possible so I'm interested to see what you can make up

>>11289886
You should be able to understand my past explanations if you had any understanding of the topic. otherwise:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lL-hXO27Q

>>11289886
The enzymes that burn fat and the protein that turns them on require copper.

>>11289886
There is a (actually several) metabolic pathway in your body that is used for burning fat. It consists of multiple proteins. Some of those proteins need copper. Without copper, they do not work.

You can imagine it like a gas engine. The engine has various parts, like pistons, valves and such, and one of the components is a spark plug. That spark plug is copper. You can keep going with fewer spark plugs, but the engine won't run very well and provide limited power. You can still use it and burn some fat, but you really need to rely on the other, sugar burning engine. As more spark plugs get missing, the engine eventually stops, and won't run any more. All the fat you eat simply accumulates and you get fatter and fatter and fatter.

>>11289991
We've already talked about this and when I asked you to specify which enzymes you never cited any that had metallic ions as part of the structure.

>>11289857
depends on your definition of starving, but in DKA the cells are deprived/starved of glucose.
if call inadequate nutrition leading to death "starvation", severe vitamin/mineral deficiencies are starvation.
I agree that there are probably very few obese people who are protein deficient.

>>11289865
DKA isn't unusual for fatties, but protein deficiency is, yeah.

>>11290016
>DKA isn't unusual for fatties
DKA affects almost exclusively type 1 diabetics which only represent roughly 0.3% of the US population. Since less than a third of type 1 diabetics are overweight then we can assume the fatties in the USA at risk of developing DKA represent around 0.1% of the population.
Comparing this to the total fatties in the USA (let's say 70-80% as per OP's graph) we can conclude that there are not many fatties in the USA that develop DKA.

>>11289883
>You can see obese people with muscle wasting
Because they dont move...

>heart/organ failure
Because these organs wasnt made to endure what they endure inside a fat person. Like for instance the heart has to beat that much harder to get the blood pumping through a fat person as it would a regular.

What do you think of this?
javascript:quote('16798834');

Its too bad this happened. Fluoroquinolones are a last line of defense in patients succumbing to bacteria that has gained antibiotic resistance. But as you can see someone can be permanently damaged by a single dose.

Perhaps in hindsight it was a mistake to use our antibiotics off-label in animal and plant environments as pesticides and supplements. The relatively aseptic hospital environment has created a new environment for antibiotic-resistant bacteria and fungi. Some suggest the only solution may be to "Open A Fucking Window" and let the chips fall where they may.

Nevertheless, without real government or industry support, the situation we face is the inevitable loss of thousands of lives. Where last-line antibiotics maim instead of kill, new therapies are urgently needed, precisely when public awareness and political will are at lows.

The only practical advice to friends and family is, don't go to a hospital unless you absolutely have to. Don't go for elective surgery unless you absolutely have to. In this new world of a toxic planet, and rising morbidity in the population, awareness and maintenance of personal hygiene is your own responsibility and care and caution will save your life.

Every single fat cell in your body basically has to attach itself to OTHER tissue. Every fat cell is dumb and wants only for itself, everything. It eyes your bloodstream, other cells, like they're a fat kid looking at a hamburger.

The fat will attach itself everywhere, inside and outside the veins, under the skin, around the bones...

For years at attaching itself slowly between and through and around everything else...

Eventually the massive load of fat kills an internal organ, and then your lifespan gets very short....

This shit will kill YOU

>>11289298
>For obesity it's more like 60% at best by following the most prescribed schedules, although you can probably increase that to at least 80% by properly following the science (unlike the average anti-science skeleton in this thread), it's still far from the efficacy of treatment for most mainstream diseases.
Man is born healthy. Not a fatass. Some men may be more disposed to becoming fat, but the facts remain the same: consume healthy food, drink water, exercise, and you will remain fit.

>>11283386
>If you're a type 1 diabetic how did you acquire insulin resistance?
He injects himself with insulin regularly to survive. It's a dirty secret, but a type 1 diabetic can very easily become a type 2 diabetic if they lose control of their diet and health. If that happens they are fucked.

>>11290603
I guess most of the type 1 diabetics I've met were very health conscious so it's strange to think some would be so unhealthy they'd go on to develop type 2

obesity is not a medical problem. complications that arise from obesity are a medical problem. but the causes of obesity are purely behavioral. there is nothing doctors can do to change this, short of inventing a pill that lets you eat like an obese person without becoming an obese person.

>>11289180
>What I hate most is that you anti-science faggots who just spread memes instead of researching the topic force me to dig out random articles every time and I can never find the most damning ones I found last time, so every time I post the quality of my sources worsens.
S-STOP QUESTIONING MUH SETTLED sCIeNcE© I CANT FIND PROVEN SOURCES

>>11290043
Horrifyingly enough there are type 2 diabetics in the US that control their blood sugar so poorly that they kill their pancreas and they get DKA. But yeah it's usually the stick thin kids with type 1 that get it. Insulin actually makes you GAIN weight, so when kids get type 1 they actually start losing weight. Type 2 diabetes is essentially the body giving up trying to store all those oreos in fat so they just sit in the bloodstream instead.

>>11290805
Yeah I heard that type 2 patients can sometimes develop DKA, but I was taught that was a fairly rare thing.
Must be a really difficult thing to manage considering how similar it is to hyperglycemic hyperosmolar state which you would expect given a T2DM history

>>11290646
>short of inventing a pill that lets you eat like an obese person without becoming an obese person.
Would charcoal pills work for that ?

>>11290013
That is not how it works.
>>11290095
Nonsense
>>11290595
There are baies literally born fat. Literally millions are trying your misguided advice with no success.
>>11290646
copper 25mg/day
>>11290928
No reason why it would.

>>11289492
>You are retarded if you think it's more than a meme. Storing more fuel instead of burning it doesn't break thermodynamics in any way.

You are the retarded one. If you burn more calories than you take in, you will lose weight. Or do you believe that calories magically appear within the body?

>>11290991
You won't burn them. There is no "if", the "engine" that burns fats is not running, so you won't burn it.>>11289991

>>11290991
>>11291015
I mean, it isn't only because the extra weight why obese people are sluggish and easily exhausted.

>>11290953
Why do you insist so much on copper when there's no proof that copper deficiency causes obesity?
Not to mention it's rare and not even in the same ballpark as obesity

>>11291124
You are wrong. It's exceedingly common, just unnoticed. And it isn't just obesity. Many people suffer noticeable cognitive decline by their 30's

>>11291124
You are wrong. It's exceedingly common, just unnoticed. And it isn't just obesity. Many people suffer noticeable cognitive decline by their 30's

>>11291160
>more pseudo-science and still no proof
I don't even know what I expected to be honest

>>11291015
If you don't burn them you die.

>>11291181
Yes.

>>11291175
https://www.allaboutfeed.net/Feed-Additives/Articles/2018/7/EU-copper-reduction-plans-officially-approved-315600E/

>>11291175
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5510220/?report=classic

>>11291160
>Many people suffer noticeable cognitive decline by their 30's
The figure shows that fluid intelligence declines linearly from age 15. I mean, technically what you say is correct, but it is not the whole picture. Why are you focusing on 30s when all other decades after 15 years of age is equally significant? And this is just stats I mean, as person putting constant effort into learning through their whole lives will probably see an even nicer curve of crystallized intelligence.

>>11291218
So you think that from this study alone you can extrapolate the results to conclude that copper deficiency in humans causes obesity?
My question to you then is why is weight gain not a symptom of copper deficiency in any credible medical source?

>>11291160
>no units on the y axis
what a great chart

>>11291236
No, it isn't that study alone.
All the research is from the past decade, medical sources haven't accepted it yet.

>>11290043
okay, I think you're right that I shouldn't have said that it's not unusual for fatties. what I should have said is "DKA does sometimes occur in T2 fatties".

>>11291304
Well if there's so much research then there must be at least 1 paper that proves copper deficiency causes obesity?

>>11289866
you're consuming more calories than you're burning

>>11291199
Glad you agree with me then. On my entire point, which was literally just that.

People don't understand just low little food we're actually designed to eat.
Humans are, objectively, marathon runners who are supposed to be VERY slim and eat a very little amount of berries and roots and a little bit of meat once every other week.
We're supposed to eat like 500 calories a day. Literally 3 oreos has slightly more calories than what you're supposed to eat in one day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9F-GMPBb8g

>>11291320
I don't get what you mean, you're just replying to one.
>>11291354
I don't think I agree. I'm saying yes, you will die. I think you mean "yes you would die, so your body somehow magically starts burning it even though it otherwise can't".

>>11291357
>We're supposed to eat like 500 calories a day.
kek. this is anorexia...

>>11291393
>rabbits increasing in body mass with copper supplementation = copper deficiency causes obesity in humans
You should probably take a course in logic

>>11291357
Hello there mr skeleton

>>11281992
People should take the (intermittent) fasting pill.
I've literally been stuffing my face with large portions of complete processed garbage for 5 years now, my activity levels are complete shit (i probably do around 10-12km of walking per week) and I went from ~85 to like ~87kg in that time. Blood sugar and LDL stayed the same.
The thing is that you only eat within a 4/6-hour interval and don't eat 2 random days in the week.

>>11281992
One of the reasons burgers are so fat is their government's medical """""experts""""" literally pushed a bulking regimen to the public as the official healthy recommended diet for the last 5 decades and indoctrinated 2-3 generations with it. their schools and everything were serving pic related in the cafeterias

>>11282024
You realize the corollary of what you are saying is that starvation is impossible right?

>>11289492
>It's easy when you know the cause. Impossible when you don't. I do, but the problem is the element is widely believed to be toxic, so I got accused of trying to poison people, being psychotic and I almost got locked up, so I won't bother trying anymore
Ok schizo poster, go take your meds

>>11284393
>And it isn't just the fat...
Giant citation needed
>What research? The evidence is so overwhelming there is no need to do any research
Oh, youre just a fucking crank.

>>11292649
Higher body mass, but less body fat.
>>11293280
Explain your logic please.
>>11293290
Explain what you think needs researching. It's obivous a quarter of the planet didn't decide to overeat to death for no reason but there must be some other cause. How would you even research that? It's obvious much of living things are getting fat, you don't need to research that the sky is blue.

>>11281992
because it comes down to variables that change like the wind and are impossible to control like: 1)food being cheap and easily available in the developed and developing world (thanks capitalism) 2)fat genes 3)hedonism/illnesses
it really amuses me the hysteria it causes. every measure that has been adopted in the last handful of decades was schizo shit that absolutely failed.
pic related is one such schizo piece of shit that is often taken seriously, but is actually misinformation.

>>11281992

because there's no drug which can prevent you from opening your mouth and stuffing it with reeses instead of some decent food.

>>11293639
>but is actually misinformation.
What info is wrong?
>Super Size Me is a 2004 American documentary film directed by and starring Morgan Spurlock, an American independent filmmaker. Spurlock's film follows a 30-day period from February 1 to March 2, 2003, during which he ate only McDonald's food. The film documents this lifestyle's drastic effect on Spurlock's physical and psychological well-being and explores the fast food industry's corporate influence, including how it encourages poor nutrition for its own profit.

>>11293882
Plenty of people have duplicated the "experiment" and have not seen drastic changes in weight or psychological well-being; for that matter their are plenty of people who have lost weight doing similar fast food diets; they just actually counted calories and what do you know that actually worked. Look up John Cisna, a high school science teacher in Iowa, who had his students as part of a project design a McDonald's only diet for him. He ate there for six straight months, and ended up losing almost 60 lbs, and had massive improvements in all his other health metrics. He just kept his calorie count at 2000 a day, and added some 45 minute a few times a week.

That said, fast food places do make it really easy to get fat, since they provide calorie dense food in a relatively cheap & extremely convenient matter. But there is nothing stopping people from just ordering the smaller sizes.

>>11294090
>He ate there for six straight months, and ended up losing almost 60 lbs, and had massive improvements in all his other health metrics. He just kept his calorie count at 2000 a day, and added some 45 minute a few times a week.
Not really surprising. Spurlock obviously wen't over 2000 kcal per day in his experiment. Here are his rules:

>He must fully eat three McDonald's meals per day: breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
>He must consume every item on the McDonald's menu at least once over the course of the 30 days (he managed this in nine days).
>He must only ingest items that are offered on the McDonald's menu, including bottled water. All outside consumption of food is prohibited.
>He must Super Size the meal when offered; he cannot request to Super Size on his own.
>He will attempt to walk about as much as a typical United States citizen, based on a suggested figure of 5,000 standardized distance steps per day,[13] but he did not closely adhere to this, as he walked more while in New York than in Houston.

These rules resulted in

>Spurlock consumed an average of 5,000 kcal per day during the experiment. [...] As a result, the then-32-year-old Spurlock gained 11.1 kilograms (24 lb), a 13% body mass increase, increased his cholesterol to 230 mg/dL (6.0 mmol/L), and experienced mood swings, sexual dysfunction, and fat accumulation in his liver.

As you say yourself
>fast food places do make it really easy to get fat, since they provide calorie dense food in a relatively cheap & extremely convenient matter.
I would like to add that calorie dense food like this has almost addictive properties. And the food is low on certain micronutrients, making it unhealthy long-term with risk for malnutrition. Especially if one manages to limit to 2000 kcal. McDonalds is far from the only food producer nor vendor that has this type of blood on their hands.

>>11289148

Diet and exercise solves all problems, yes some people have it easier than others but if you eat brown rice and chicken + go to the gym everyday then you are not getting fat. Period. There are no ifs and buts here.

>>11281992
because its not a medical issue

>>11281992
Because we cannot do proper human brain transplants... yet!

>>11281992
it already did.
just because a problem is solved, that doesn't mean people have to look up, undrestand or implement the solution.

it's like asking "Why can't Bozinga the retard builld a lasting bridge? why haven't engineers solved the problem of making bridges yet?"

Because the ability to use knowledge effectively is a subset of intellectual maturity, and intellectual maturity is a subset of cultural education, not scientific or mathematical education.

>>11294785
It isn't a few isolated individuals, it's often a major share of populations. It's more like if an increasing percentage of population was unable to count.

>>11294821
The ability to use knowledge effectively is pretty much 100% an inborn trait.

>>11291350
but it's healthy calories

>>11295495
>600g of fat
>healthy calories

>>11291350
bullcrap i have put away literally every shit with hfcs for 3 weeks and i lost virtually insignificant amount of weight like a pound at 220lbs

>>11281992
Medicine has something call surgery, but it depends if you can afford it and the will to lose weight with balanced diet and 1 hour excercise or walking per day, also drink 2 regular size bottles of water

>>11295518
it's healthy fats (nuts)

>>11295616
Dude, it's only healthy if you're not overeating

>>11282024
ok Eliezer

>>11295518
>>11295616
>>11295623
Those amonds alone may provide easily 5mg of copper.

>>11281992
>dude just use a pill lmao
The pharmaceutical industry won't create healthy lifestyles for you.

>>11296031
Well, duh, but they should at least be able to tell people what a healthy lifestyle is.

Don't say processed food. Say food processed by XYZ method.

Don't say low in nutrients. Say food deficient in (a specific nutrient) Q.

The way you say it is too vague to follow.

>>11296040
While I agree with you, there are some good reasons why people skimp on this. These expressions are placeholders for more elaborate ideas. Possibly something similar to these:
>Don't say low in nutrients. Say food deficient in (a specific nutrient) Q.
There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of different kinds of molecules in any plant food. We don't understand the interplay between these very well, and we have little reason to claim that our list of essential nutrients is complete. Some foods just are able to sustain people better over long-term, and we don't always understand why in terms of this list of nutrients. Calorie rich foods will per definition satisfy ones energy intake with lesser amounts of food in sheer mass.
>Don't say processed food. Say food processed by XYZ method.
There are a few healthy processed foods. For example tomato based products and cacao powder. The vast majority are not though. They sacrifice nutrition for improved taste, appearance, convenience, storage etc. I agree that processing might not be bad in priciple. But avoiding processing is a great general rule. At least for now.

In a way, pharmaceutics are processed foods.
In a way, meat is processed food.

>>11287046
So whats the cause? Grains were pretty constant from 1961 to 2013. I only know the bliss point but I don't know when it was discovered.

>>11296372
It's the fat.

>>11289866
I don't understand this meme. Why are you consuming so much peanut butter, almonds and milk?

>>11296372
Interesting guy! Thank you for sharing! From his wikipedia page:

>Moskowitz graduated from Harvard University in 1969 with a Ph.D. in experimental psychology.

>Moskowitz developed Cherry Vanilla Dr Pepper when he was hired in 2004 by Cadbury Schweppes, which was hoping to expand the market for Dr. Pepper by developing a product line extension using an alternative formulation with vanilla or cherry flavors. Moskowitz has been consulted by Campbell Soup, General Foods, Kraft and PepsiCo for his expertise in food optimization. According to Moskowitz he has optimized soups, pizzas, salad dressings, and pickles in his work for various firms. His research on Prego spaghetti sauce, which revealed a significant customer preference for an "extra-chunky" formulation, is notable as was his optimization of the amount of salt, sugar, and fat in spaghetti sauce at the "bliss point" which maximized consumer satisfaction. His first job after graduation from Harvard was for the United States Army with respect to Meals, Ready-to-Eat, where he applied the concept of sensory-specific satiety, the tendency for consumers to tire of strongly flavored foods, to ensure that the meals were formulated in a way that encouraged soldiers to eat sufficient calories.

About his book "Selling Blue Elephants":
>RDE is the systematized process of designing, testing and modifying alternative ideas, packages, products, or services in a disciplined way so that the developer and marketer discover what appeals to the customer, even if the customer can't articulate the need, much less the solution.

>tell burgers (americ*ns) that burgers are bad
>get assassinated by a McDonald's death squad or get canceled or people just ignore you
>ban all shit food
>"WTF IS THIS COMMUNISM AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH THE FOUNDING FATHERS COME HELP LIBERTY IS IN DANGER SIC SEMPER TYRANIS SIC SEMPER TYRANIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS"

>>11296380
Probably bait. Possibly because a guy earlier in thread said
>>11285879
>go easy on the nuts
Ridiculous amounts of almonds, peanut butter and milk. Not only is it like 4 times the recommended calories, but most of it is in foods that are 50% fats.

>>11291357
I doubt that there is a single primitive human population that runs marathons, humans just need to walk down prey and sprint when they need to move as fast at possible. Marathons are awful for you. Case in point: the first marathon runner who died on the spot.

>>11286991
Japan untouched

>>11281992
Because medicine can’t force you to get off your fat ass and stop eating Doritos everyday

>>11282772
>Look at what the successful fitness freaks and hobbyists do.
Lots of performance enhancing drugs?

>>11290631
>it's strange to think some would be so unhealthy they'd go on to develop type 2
While poor diet doesn't help, the simple fact is that human insulin injections will never be able to match the precision of a functioning pancreas. Injecting large bolii of insulin to handle spikes in blood sugar can cause insulin resistance.

>>11291404
He has a slight point. Humans aren't meant to be frequent feeders and grazers. You get fat after getting a kill, and then subsist until the next hunt. Modern humans have totally removed the subsist part. Most people can't even make from lunch to dinner without stuffing their faces with some kind of snack.

>>11293270
Grains being put on the bottom of the food pyramid was literally the result of agricultural lobbying. Midwest and Western farmers destroyed generations of Americans health for profit.

>>11296372
>Grains are constant
Cereals and grains make a huge jump starting around 1985. This along with a failure to reduce caloric intake anyone else is the obvious culprit.

>>11297181
>>11297165
Nonsese. Grains were the staple of human nutrition for all recorded history.

>>11298818
Thats only like 10 000 years

>>11281992
>Why can't medocine solve the obesity crisis?

Its the gastric bypass dilemma. It doesn't stop being fat, it just allows them to eat more

>>11298949
99950 of which obesity was exceedingly rare.

>>11298949
9950 of which obesity was exceedingly rare.

>>11298818
>human nutrition
Agriculturalist nutrition. Steppe nomads and pastoralists who consumed meat and dairy products were renowned for their superior physical ability compared to those who consumed grain. Regardless modern grains are nothing like what our ancestors ate. Their bread didn't have added sugar in it.

>>11298971
You can't compare properly leavened wholegrain bread, used as a stomach filler alongside a largely paleolithic diet, with the role of grains in the food pyramid.

>>11299150
I guess that is why we built civilization and they didn't... There was also a middle ground with agrculturalist peasants supplemented with occasional hunting or gathering. And neither of them was obese.

>>11300942
No. On the contrary, it used to be common knowledge that you basically get anorexic when you only eat grain. Something else must have changed.

>>11301007
>On the contrary
Wholegrain bread fills the stomach with less calories. As communities became more industrial, it probably wasn't leavened properly either, so it contained phytic acid.
Today, grains means white flour and HFCS.
>Something else
We're arguing about what, but there's also the question of when. Breakfast used to be at 3pm.

>>11301031
People ate unleavened bread and porridge as well, again, if anything with the opposite problem.

>>11301178
You've misunderstood. I mean that the phytic acid causes malabsorption. White flour, even when not leavened properly, doesn't contain much phytic acid or fibre, so it's digested far more efficiently than unleavened wholegrain flour.

>>11301031
>>11301268
But the advent of cheap white bread doesn't match that of obesity.

>>11301314
No, but the introduction of the food pyramid did. I agree there's probably more too it, but it's easy to become overweight on a diet of complex carbohydrates. Also, never underestimate how dumb the average American is. If you tell them sugar is a carbohydrate and then show them the food pyramid, they'll conclude that foods that have more percentage sugar than fat like ice cream are healthy.

>>11296850
that guys 100% natty

>>11281992
“Medocine” can cure obesity. A doctor can surgically remove much of your belly fat. My cunt of an orchestra teacher had it done. Fatass drank like a two liter of mt dew a day.

>>11301444
>If you tell them sugar is a carbohydrate
Lol what percentage of Americans know that ?

And okay maybe the cereal products are to blame.
But do you have any data on the effectiveness of the food pyramid campaign ? Did people really model their diet on it, and obese people more than others ?
I mean first I don't expect such campaigns to actually affect a large audience. The Got milk? ads didn't increase milk consumption for example, even though it was simpler to understand and was run through TVs, which touches more people than posters on school walls.
Second I don't expect that the people who are obese or their parents especially pay attention to dietary advice.
Third the food pyramid put oils in the eat less category and vegetables in the eat more category, without any apparent effect towards decreasing the first's and increasing the second's consumption.


I suspect more than any particular imbalance in their diet, it's the fact that they eat just too damn much that is the issue.

Recently, Mexico obesity rates overcame America's. About a third of their population is obese, if I got the numbers right.

I thought that was interesting.

>>11301496

if you dont change eating habit, you will regain all the fat

>>11301693
Yes, because it was taught to kids in school and taught to parents with kids who wanted their kids to eat properly. There is a reason it took ~10 years until after the food pyramid was created for obesity to start really taking off.

>>11304488
>>11304488
And what i mean by this, by the way, is that to those kids that kind of eating was considered the normal thing. They didn't think about what they were eating, that was just the default, its what they learned meals were.

>>11302761
Give all morbidly obese people a port that drains their lard daily. At the very worst an infection could kill them and we won't have to worry about them anymore.

>>11288517
unironically my wife

if obesity is so bad then why would you rather fuck the obese gal /sci/

>>11296850
RIP Piano Man. The Ben and Jerry's did him in, not the gear BROS, don't believe the lies.

>>11304488
>it was taught to kids in school and taught to parents with kids who wanted their kids to eat properly.
You need some evidence that some people took that advice, and that it was those people who became obese.

As counter evidence, there's, in addition to the vegetable level of the pyramid being completely forgotten by the american consumers, the fact that the food pyramid was also promoted by european countries, which didn't reach the same levels of obesity.

>>11282024
I mean, if that fails. You have hypothyroidism an need thyroid hormones. If that fails, you have some genetic mutation in satiety and fat processing.

>>11304565
was it the same pyramid?
the US nutritionists who created it did not make the one we are stuck with, they sent it off after completing their recommendations and what they got back was the modified version we have today.
The idea of the food pyramid i think originated somewhere in europe, but the american one with things like pasta at the bottom is a result of lobbyists

>>11288526
>the switch that turns on fat burning is broken.
How on Earth could this possible happen? Are you telling me that someone will starve to death while they're obese

>>11304565
pasta is a staple in italy, mediterranean diet, and people only started getting fat after mcdonald's and sodas became ubiquitous

>>11304888
I can guarentee you people in italy never ate as much pasta

look at pizza as an example of how breads were seen and used. Pizza was invented to do something with all the abundance of tomatoes they had. The bread was an augment to the tomato sauce.

You could say the same thing about rice or any other traditional grain staple. Yeah its eaten a lot of overall but its not the foundation of the diet, its just because its all that fills a certain category that have it all the time with the main focus of the meal.

The west literally sees grains as what you eat and everything else, meats and vegetables and fruits, as just little side things that increase the flavors of the grain.

>>11281992
Since Americans are highly dependent on cars.
Many of them would already get enough exercise every day, if they walked a little on the commute to get to/from the bus/train stop.
Sure, takes longer, but saves time that you'd otherwise spend in the gym, and while on the bus or train you can do fucking everything these days.

>>11304783
Copper deficiency. Yes, it happens all the time, usually unrecorded.
>>11304888
>>11304903
People used to cook copper, it used to be considered safe enough even for candy. As I said there doesn't seem to be a reasonable reason why it became labelled as toxic, it's possible it was swept together with the other toxic metal, like lead, etc.

>>11304783
Copper deficiency. Yes, it happens all the time, usually unrecorded.
>>11304888
>>11304903
People used to cook copper, it used to be considered safe enough even for candy coloring. As I said there doesn't seem to be a reasonable reason why it became labelled as toxic, it's possible it was swept together with the other actually toxic metals, like lead, etc.

>>11282520
public schools literally do not teach a fucking about how the human body works, except specifics of a blood cell and technically how organ systems work but just to the point of "digestive system is what digests food" or "endocrine system is how you poopoo"

>>11304783
Copper deficiency. Yes, it happens all the time, usually unrecorded.
>>11304888
>>11304903
People used to cook in copper, it used to be considered safe enough even for candy coloring. As I said there doesn't seem to be a reasonable reason why it became labelled as toxic, it's possible it was swept together with the other actually toxic metals, like lead, etc.

>>11304783
Copper deficiency. Yes, it happens all the time, usually unrecorded.
>>11304888 (You)
>>11304903
People used to cook in copper, it used to be considered safe enough even for candy coloring. As I said there doesn't seem to be a reasonable reason why it became labelled as toxic, it's possible it was swept together with the other actually toxic metals, like lead, etc.

>>11304936
>>11304888

What are you doing?

Ok, explain psychiatric medication like olanzapin. My brother took it when we lived together and he gained quite a lot of weight without changing his diet. The when he stopped taking the meds he lost the weight without effort. What I'm saying is that it is more to it than calories you literal retards.

>>11304966
Of course things can affect your BMR, that's a given and the reason why not everyone should be eating the same food. Had your brother started eating less food than usual he would have maintained his weight.
Of course it's difficult for patients who have psychiatric problems since especially with people who suffer from depression they lack motivation to do exercise and diet (which is completely understandable and your brother has all my sympathy, hope he is well now).

>>11304936
How many times does someone have to call you out before you stop shilling this copper nonsense.

Medicine can solve the obesity crisis, but society doesn't want the cure. To put it simply, sugar is the main culprit. Huge amounts of refined sugar being added to almost everything are making people stupid fat and giving them type-2 diabetes. Humans (and most animals) are hard-wired to love sweet things, since sugar is the easiest and quickest carbohydrate to use. No long tedious digestion needed to break it down. The body can put it to use almost right away. Before the rise of Coca-Cola and the Big Mac, refined sugar made up a very small percentage of a person's diet. Now it's in almost everything. Companies in an attempt to make the processed garbage they call "food" palatable, mask it in huge amounts of sugar. Corporations making billions selling people literal sugar water. The pancreas, whose job is to take excess blood sugar and store it as fat, has its work cut out for it, and after chronic abuse, and storing loads of sugar as fat, finally throws in the towel, and you end up with an obese fuck that has to take insulin shots just to keep from dying. And don't give me that bullshit amount simple "Calories in vs Calories out". A can of Pepsi and a handful of almonds have the same Calories, yet nobody's ended up on the biggest loser from eating almonds.

tldr; Stop eating and drinking so much sugar and for 99% of fat fucks you'll start losing weight.

>>11285710
Wait, so if you just ate lots and lots proteins, would you actually lose weight if you don't body build? Or does it have some ability to turn excess dietary proteins into fat like for sugars?
Not arguing, just a curious retard

>>11305073
Somebody copied my post for no reason. (You'r replying to the stolen post, not your fault, I guess)
"Calling out" implies proving the person wrong. Nobody has done that and I have the evidence on my sidd. It isn't nonsense.
>>11305168
No. It's copper. Sugar only makes it worse, because fructose makes copper deficiency worse. Sugar consumption has been declining for decades.

>>11305227
Any amount of protein you eat above the required amount (used in cells/tissues) will eventually be turned into energy through various pathways, gluconeogenesis being the most important one.

>>11305247
>I have the evidence on my side
The only thing you posted was 1 study on rabbits. The fact that weight gain shows up nowhere in any credible paper on copper deficiency is proof enough that you're wrong.

>>11281992
Until there's a medicine that makes addictive food less addictive, it won't.

>>11305247
If you had true copper deficiency, being fat would be the least of your problems. Copper deficiency is a serious issue that causes neurological problems, and extreme fatigue, not obesity. And how the fuck does eating fructose (something found in fucking fruit) prevent you from getting copper? Most people get all the copper they need from the fucking water they drink. Go spout your retardation on a less intelligent board.

>>11305252
>>11305227

in other words, any excess protein is turned into fat

>>11282777
What's DNP?

Why are people still stupid and resistant to keto? Like some hand rubbing tribesman trying to spread disinfo...

>>11305494
An industrial communication protocol

>>11305512
Cause niggas love their carbs.

>>11305259
That's the only thing I POSTED, yes. I have more.
>The fact that weight gain shows up nowhere in any credible paper on copper deficiency is proof enough that you're wrong.

Things aren't known until they are known, and it takes decades or more until they become known by science as well.
>>11305295
This is true. It causes neurological decline, which eventually ends up with Alzheimer's. But you can tell much earlier before the blatant effects show.
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2017/mt/c7mt00074j
>By contrast, copper levels were substantively decreased in all AD-brain regions, to 52.8-70.2% of corresponding control values, consistent with pan-cerebral copper deficiency. This copper deficiency could be pathogenic in AD, since levels are lowered to values approximating those in Menkes' disease, an X-linked recessive disorder where brain-copper deficiency is the accepted cause of severe brain damage.
>and extreme fatigue, not obesity
Show me an obese person who isn't sluggish and easily tired.
>And how the fuck does eating fructose (something found in fucking fruit) prevent you from getting copper?
No idea, but it's well documented
https://insulinresistance.org/index.php/jir/article/view/43/142

>>11304903
>Pizza was invented to do something with all the abundance of tomatoes they had. The bread was an augment to the tomato sauce.
You've got it all wrong. Pizza was originally just a flat bread with oil and herbs like a foccacia. The tomato was added to the bread for flavour and not the reverse.

>>11305755
>I have more
That you choose not to post? Get real. You're a fraud.

>>11289148
If you're fat, you're eating too many kcals for your metabolism. Simple as.

>>11305831
no amount of dieting will make you look like this, you just become skinnyfat (at best), with normal size but little lean muscle. I guess it may even explain why people become anorexic, because while thin, they are still chubby instead of lean. So they desperately try losing fat by starving, but they can't, until they are only bone.

>>11305831
No amount of dieting will make you look like this, you just become skinnyfat at best, with normal size but little lean muscle. I guess it may even explain why people become anorexic, because while thin, they are still chubby instead of lean. So they desperately try losing fat by starving, but they can't, until they are only bone.

>>11305947
That's what exercise is for.
Only thing stopping you from looking like the pic is excess skin from obesity, otherwise its achievable for 99% of people

>>11305965
No it isn't. 99% of the time the "excess skin" is actually fat. The skin would grow smaller if there wasn't the fat.

>>11305980
And you can tell somebody who is not obese from somebody obese, but starving.

>>11305981
Meaning the numbers actually underestimate obesity rates, as they don't count people who are obese, but keep themselves below 25BMI by starving.

>>11305980
Yes, a healthy bodyweight is achievable for anybody (minus rare genetic and thyroid conditions).
Denying this is just making excuses.

>>11305981
Meaning the numbers actually underestimate obesity rates, as they don't count people who have obesity, but keep themselves below 25BMI by starving.

>>11305984
No, you can only starve yourselves, but you can always tell if the person is healthy, or stay normal weight because of starving themselves.
Meaning the numbers actually underestimate obesity rates, as they don't count people who have obesity, but keep themselves below 25BMI by starving.

>>11305985
>people who have obesity
>keep themselves below 25BMI by starving

>>11305984
No, you can only starve yourself, but you can always tell if the person is healthy, or stay normal weight because of starving themselves.
Meaning the numbers actually underestimate obesity rates, as they don't count people who have obesity, but keep themselves below 25BMI by starving. They will still have all the associated health problems.

>>11305988
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_weight_obesity

>>11305992
This is not obesity this is just being unhealthy

>>11281992
Because mental discipline and personal responsibility are not a big thing in modern western society.

It's always
>muh hormones
>muh genetics
>evil big brother but sugar and GMO in my food
>muh gluten

The people who stop being fat realiize, "goddamn I'm a fat fuck who stuffs their face with whatever gives me a 30 minute high and doesn't get any exercise"

>stop eating!
>"no!"
wa la

>>11296380
>why
they taste good

>>11307519
>they taste good
because they are high in copper