/sci/ - Science & Math

Also, how likely is it that Jesus and Mohammed were schizophrenics?

>>11279097
>Is Schizophrenia the most mysterious cognitive dysfunction?
Kinda, in the sense that we have developed to be completely ignorant of how we all once were.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

>>11279099
very, ive been doing magic gor a while and it is easy to go crazy.

sometimes i have to take a break because my pineal gland will be exploding and recieving and sending too much information where it takes over too much of the frontal lobe

>>11279099
everyone is schizophrenic, you're just not labeled as such if you don't show it

>>11279101
Unrelated, but where do you get these gifs from, Anon? They calm me for some reason.

>>11279107
I got a few from other anons. i mostly just spent hours searching comfy gifs on google. an anon posted a thread here whining about something i forget but i gave him liek 140 gifs to help him stop being a whiny faggot LOL

>>11279101
Woah, that article is fascinating. So Bicamerialism is a theory that we have 2 inner minds?

>>11279097
Every symptom of schizo sounds like a basic description of insanity.

>>11279097
>Is Schizophrenia the most mysterious cognitive dysfunction?
Only to /x/trannies who keep romanticizing it and believe that there's a deeper meaning to it.
>It seems as if we know nothing about why/how people become Schizophrenics
It might be a response to trauma, but yeah, the deeper causes aren't known.

>>11279110
I see, thanks though. Guess I should hang out in comfy threads more often.

>>11279242
it only lasted for a few hours, it got BAWLEEETED LOL

>>11279101
All neurotypical westerners* are bicameral. We just learned to call it our 'inner voice'.
*It's common for others and autisc whites not to have any inner voice at all. Those likely only have one mind.

>>11279097
>>11279142
>>11279150
A large part of it that schizophrenia is a made up disease diagnosed by the psychiatrists gut, rather than some objective tests for it.

>>11279097
it doesn't exist just think of a voice talking to your in your head and you essentially have schizophrenia. retards just confuse thinking with a mental illness.

>>11279285
I think there's something about it that is probably real. Especially since schizophrenia is estimated to be 80% heritable; that is, 80% of the risk is thought to be genetic. Which is a fucking lot. For comparison, for depression, it's only 40%.

But I can't say I totally understand schizophrenia. One question I have is this: do you believe people when they say they're hearing voices and seeing things that don't exist?

Regarding the voices thing, which is very common among people with psychosis apparently, everyone has an internal monologue don't they? So I think when people say they're "hearing voices" it's really just their internal monologue, but they're thinking thoughts that they don't want to think, like "you're shit, you're a failure at everything" or whatever, and they don't want to accept that it's a form of self-criticism, so they think "oh it must be somebody else's voice that's speaking to me", or something like that. To put it in Freudian terms, I think their superego is causing them distress, so they rationalise it as being somebody else's voice who's speaking to them.

And as for seeing things / hallucinating, which I think is meant to be less common in people with psychosis than hearing voices is, then I am not sure they really are seeing things. Just like with the voices I think it's probably a rationalisation. E.g. a person with psychosis who thinks there are cameras in the ceiling, when no cameras are there, I'm not sure if they really are seeing cameras. I think they're just imagining cameras or maybe just saying that there are cameras because it justifies their paranoia. And maybe they want to believe in some paranoid story because it makes them feel important or something. E.g. someone who says they're being chased by the government, it makes them feel important.

I've met schizophrenic people by the way. And this is what I reckon is probably the case.

>>11279097
I thought it was genetic.

>>11279554
>I think there's something about it that is probably real. Especially since schizophrenia is estimated to be 80% heritable
That is very likely a bias; when psychiatrists know about the persons family history of schizophrenia, they may be biased to diagnose them as well. Other may be factors like being too ugly or extremely beautiful, (many people in psych wards are ridiculously attractive)***.

>One question I have is this: do you believe people when they say they're hearing voices and seeing things that don't exist?
I don't, and neither do the psychiatrists, as I heard that it's a quick way of getting kicked out or giagnosed with a fictitious disorder(or how it's called when you're faking a disease), as nobody is insane enough to admit to hearing voices, it's only when the psychiatrists intuits that you do when you get diagnosed.
>And maybe they want to believe in some paranoid story because it makes them feel important or something. E.g. someone who says they're being chased by the government, it makes them feel important.
That's a delusion, not hallucination. Again psychiatrist only work with information told them bh other people, they say asking the patient about the delusions would only make them upset, so they don't do it and just medicate them.

***You wouldn't believe how bad being attractive can be. People will automatically see as obsessed with your looks, a moral failure, and be jealous of you. Getting any kind of support is nearly impossible, people only want to be seen around you or get something from you. People just refuse to believe you are not super wealthy when you look too good. Just this christmas I got not so subtly blamed for not giving money to some sick guy who picked me from the crowd on street, which resulted in some old lady stalking me for minutes asking me 'tough' questions why I didn't give him anything. I couldn't, I'm quite possibly more broke than him.

>>11279554
This paragraph from wikipedia is pretty interesting:

>"Bayesian models of brain functioning have been utilized to link abnormalities in cellular functioning to symptoms.[118][119] Both hallucinations and delusions have been suggested to reflect improper encoding of prior expectations, thereby causing expectation to excessively influence sensory perception and the formation of beliefs. In canonical models of circuits that mediate predictive coding, hypoactive NMDA receptor activation, similar to that seen in schizophrenia, could theoretically result in classic symptoms of schizophrenia such as delusions and hallucinations.[120][121]"

This makes a lot of sense. It's defective hardware.

>>11279554
>Regarding the voices thing, which is very common among people with psychosis apparently, everyone has an internal monologue don't they? So I think when people say they're "hearing voices" it's really just their internal monologue, but they're thinking thoughts that they don't want to think, like "you're shit, you're a failure at everything" or whatever, and they don't want to accept that it's a form of self-criticism

this is just victim blaming.

>>11279644
>causing expectation to excessively influence sensory perception and the formation of beliefs
cont.

this specifically seems right on the money.

>>11279633
>That is very likely a bias
No mate it's from twin studies.

>nobody is insane enough to admit to hearing voices
You are factually wrong, I have been in mental hospitals and people definitely do admit to hearing voices.

>That's a delusion
Well done Mr. Einstein you've passed Psych 101, but you clearly didn't pass English 101, because if you had then you would have seen that the hallucination I was referring to was cameras in the ceiling.

And the rest of your post is you whinging and whining about how the world hates you because you're just too good for them.

Holy fuck this is a new level of pathetic.

>>11279107
>>11279141
kys

>>11279554
>To put it in Freudian terms, I think their superego is causing them distress, so they rationalise it as being somebody else's voice who's speaking to them.

this is a bizarre and fallacious way to look at human psychology. if you only think in terms of "ego", any mental disorder can be written off as self-inflicted narcissism. it's just as off base as the belief that "demons" cause psychosis.

>>11279097
Schizophrenia is already known to be caused by elevated dopamine levels. Just google it and confirm for yourself.
What I don't get is why we haven't standardized a normal range for dopamine so we can test a person's dopamine level (maybe because it depends where the dopamine is in the brain at the time and can't be extracted by a simple blood test).
Interestingly the opposite of schizophrenia is Parkinson's disease, a lack of dopamine. They have to take a medication called L-dopa which sometimes makes the Parkinson's person schizophrenic instead

>>11279141
According to a man called Robert Waggoner, a man that's been practising lucid dreaming for some decades now, when you're dreaming, there is actually an "awareness behind the dream" that you can talk to.

According to Robert, originally, when he was lucid dreaming, he would speak to dream characters and ask them what they represented and the character would simply respond and explain their purpose however there was one instance where something bizarre happened. He asked a character what their purpose was and then there was a voice from above that explained what the character's purpose was. When Robert investigated into the voice that came from above, this is where he made his discovery that we all in fact, have a second mind.

You're actually able to make requests of this second mind when you're lucid dreaming. Simply say "Hey dream, show me something interesting!" or "Hey dream, show me something funny!", saying it as though you were talking to the dream itself and the request will be fulfilled. I've attempted this myself and it has worked. I'm surprised this breakthrough hasn't become widespread knowledge. I even remember seeing a video of Jordan Peterson talk about how strange dreams are because in a dream, you're the observer. Even he seems oblivious to Waggoner's discovery and he's obsessed with Jung and all of these matters regarding the true nature of our minds.

You can buy his book if you want to (I have yet to) but here's an hour-long talk he gave that I watched and thought was pretty informative:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVRbP9EI7L0

>>11279695


likely, their cognitive machinery for learning and prediction is fucked up. dopamine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_difference_learning

"The TD algorithm has also received attention in the field of neuroscience. Researchers discovered that the firing rate of dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area (VTA) and substantia nigra (SNc) appear to mimic the error function in the algorithm."

hyperactive dopamine neurons or some other abnormality might be a necessary condition for schizophrenia.

>>11279663
>No mate it's from twin studies.
How would you prevent the bias of psychiatrists being more likely to diagnose people when their identical twin had been diagnosed?
>Holy fuck this is a new level of pathetic.
Imagine thing like you waiting for the night bus, some teen girls talking to you then the boys accuse you you're there to pick up teen girls. When a male is being friendly to you, there being maybe 90% chance of them turning out being gay, etc. It wears you down, and you don't really have much way to turn your looks into profit as a straight male. Or maybe I am just stupid, but I don't think I am.

>>11279644
>hypoactive NMDA receptor activation
Terminal magnesium deficoency. Never widely recognized, because by the time it is detectable in blood, you are already insane.

>>11279693
Mate you're picking out a single sentence of that paragraph, and I only included that sentence to try and explain what I mean in different terms that some people might understand better. I'm not saying Freud was right, but many people will be familiar with the Freudian concept of the superego, which is why I mentioned it. Read the rest of the paragraph for a more detailed explanation of what I meant.

>>11279110
that's not how light works...

>>11279713
>WOE IS ME I'M SO ATTRACTIVE BUT THE WORLD HATES ME, I'M THE SUPREME GENTLEMAN, YOU MUST LIKE ME

>>11279798

your whole post is predicated on the idea that schizophrenics are just compulsive narcissistic liars.

i am trying to explain to you that they aren't. the parts of their brain that integrate perception, learning and behavior are not wired up correctly, and that's why they are the way they are.

>>11279806
I mean women (and gay men) do like me. It's the jealousy of other men, and the general expectation I must be uber wealthy or even a celebrity that is the problem.

>>11279849
Nope that's not what I'm saying mate. I'm just saying that it's possible that they're rationalising distressing thoughts in different ways. Lots of people have really distressing thoughts. You get fathers who have sexual thoughts about their daughters and they get so disturbed by it that they might try and kill themself and they end up in the mental hospital. I've been in mental hospitals and yes you do get stuff like that. I mean I never came across a guy myself who had that issue, but apparently some people have that issue, from what I heard. Or alternatively you have people who are so angry with a relative that they have disturbing thoughts about harming them, etc.

>the parts of their brain that integrate perception, learning and behavior are not wired up correctly
If they had a neurological disorder then they would be diagnosed with a neurological disorder.

>>11279097
>*watches movie about john nash once*
OOOOOOOOOHHHHHH MYYYYYYYY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD IIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM GGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG IIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>*spends rest of life romanticizing mental illness in place of any real accomplishments*

>>11279097
Nigger, Schizophrenia is just an excess of dopamine. Parkinsons is the deficit. Everything is just an excess or deficit of something.

>>11279883
sum1 tuk an intro psych course

Lurker psychiatrist here.
/sci/ knowledge in psychiatry is awful. You know nothing about schizophrenia. It's NOT mysterious, its "classic symptoms" are NOT delusions or hallucinations, and the lack of a coherent hypothesis is a direct consequence of the poor clinical description of psychoses in general, and the stupid infatuation with reductionist "neurosciences" without reasoning.

>>11279904
>It's NOT mysterious
> and the lack of a coherent hypothesis is a direct consequence of the poor clinical description of psychoses in general, and the stupid infatuation with reductionist "neurosciences" without reasoning.
hmmmm there's something wrong here you pill pushing faggot

>>11279904
You haven't given any description of what it actually is. And you haven't given any reasoning for why a neuroscientific approach is bad.

>>11279912
...and that would be...

>>11279919
that it is mysterious because of all the misinformation and ignorance revolving around the subject. Why don't you bless us with some mother fucking explanations?

MAKE IT RAIN WITH EXPLANATIONS IN THIS MOTHA FUKKA SON

>>11279918
Schizophrenia is a primary psychosis characterized by a modification of an individual's system of values. Delusions and hallucinations are accesory symptoms. (See original descriptions of the disease by Kraepelin and Bleuler, and description of the simple form of the disease by Diem).
Neuroscience is just a new name for a heterogeneous group of disciplines, with a materialism reductionist frame, attempting to solve ancient psychophysics problems without a proper psychological ground.

>>11279938
>inb4 you start demanding increasingly detailed explanations.
I'm not gonna give you a fucking lesson on the subject. Go read by yourselves.

>>11279097
Similar to just about every other mental illness it is best seen as a malfunctioning version of a niche psychological type which may have provided some kind of unusual fitness against selective pressure. Which would explain why it has not been selected against genetically.

Schizotypal personality "disorder" can actually in some cases be adaptive; these are your prophets, shaman, magicians, eccentric philosophers and so forth. But of course it comes along with the chance of full blown maladaptive schizo shit where you sit inside talking to a wall all day.

Similar to how you can have a highly adapted aspie savant who is peerless against his neurotypical code writing colleagues or something, but you also have fully autistic wrecks rolling on the ground.

>>11279938
>psychosis
what is psychosis
>characterized by a modification of an individual's system of values
elaborate
>Delusions and hallucinations are accesory symptoms
What are delusions
what are hallucinations
what are accesory symptoms
what are primary symptoms
>Neuroscience is just a new name for a heterogeneous group of disciplines, with a materialism reductionist frame, attempting to solve ancient psychophysics problems without a proper psychological ground.
fancy faggot words, neuroscience is the most emotionless you can get with this shit. i liek hard evidence moar than your ego.

>>11279946
IF YOU DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE A DISCUSSION YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE COME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE FAGGOT

>>11279952
>I'm gonna stop at define definition
I knew this was coming. If you care, go read, I gave you where to start.

>>11279938
Are you an actual psychiatrist? Like, an MD? Or you're studying to be a psychiatrist?

Anyway, so you're saying you see schizophrenia as a psychological problem, a problem of someone's emotions and mental state, rather than a physical brain problem? Since you seem to be saying neuroscience is irrelevant because it doesn't explain the psychological picture.

If something is psychological in nature then surely it would be caused by events in your life, rather than physical things happening to your brain or body, which would cause neurological problems, like brain injuries / damage or whatever.

So if you think schizophrenia is psychological in nature, not neurological, then what do you think causes it? Childhood trauma, stuff like that?

>>11279951
>But of course it comes along with the chance of full blown maladaptive schizo shit where you sit inside talking to a wall all day.
It's been a while since i've done this. It was as bad as i think it's ever gonna get after my dad died. Shit's pretty mellow now.

>>11279956
nigger you ain't no fucking expert and if you don't want to discuss any further go the fuck away

>>11279938
>characterized by a modification of an individual's system of values.
The fuck does that even mean? You call this science? Be precise, god dammit!

>>11279960
What are your symptoms generally like now?

And anyone who wants a better idea of the theory here >>11279951
This is pretty much compulsory viewing on the subject

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEnklxGAmak

Sapolsky's lectures on religion are also very interesting and related

>>11279959
Actual psychiatrist.
No, I'm not saying that. Ultimately, what an observer sees as psychological regularities and variations depend fully on (but are not identical with) the physical regularities and variations of an object to which the observer attributes a mind. Therefore, the clinical picture is psychological (madness exists for humans before they knew that the physical correlate of the mind was the brain) but the causal explanation of the phenomena needs to be made in physical terms (of course you could also describe the psychological correlates, but that would not be causal explanation). This is where "neurosciences" start their work. But without proper psychology they are blind.
What causes schizophrenia? This can be researched by studying it in its pure forms. Which can't be done if we keep thinking delusions and hallucinations are part of the core symptoms.

>>11279977
>What are your symptoms generally like now?
non-existant. I've been going to a soup kitchen to volunteer for 3 years now where my abrasive paranoid nature is largely welcome. I've gone full-blown social mode because of this and it's pretty spectacular. I feel great.

>>11279985
you sound like you dont know what the fuck you're talking about and it looks liek you just want to brainstorm on horseshit

>>11280009
thats everyone in these threads anon

>>11280010

>>11279985
I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be obtuse or not. It seems like you're saying a massive amount of waffle and very little substance.

Surely the question of whether schizophrenia is a neurological physical brain problem, or whether it's a mental emotional problem, should be an extremely easy one to answer. It's either one or the other. Physical brain problems can sometimes cause, indirectly, mental and emotional problems. Just like brain damage can indirectly cause depression, because a person with brain damage can't function as well as they used to, maybe their memory has turned to shit, so they get frustrated and depressed. But depression is still an emotional state; it doesn't describe a physical brain dysfunction. So they are two entirely separate things: physical brain injuries or dysfunctions on the one hand, and emotional / mental states on the other.

But just like depression, I think that many people deliberately obfuscate all of the language around "mental illness" because it's all a massive cope. Like people who try and tell you that depression is just like diabetes. It isn't, because diabetes is a physical condition, while depression is a mood, an emotion. Depression can happen in people who have physically nothing wrong with them. It's an emotional reaction to your environment and life circumstances. But diabetes has nothing to do with your emotions; it's a physical dysfunction of your body.

>>11280034
>diabetes has nothing to do with your emotions; it's a physical dysfunction of your body.
but anon, can't you be depressed because you have diabetes and can't eat w/e you want liek everyone else?

>>11280044
Sure you could, but like I said, diabetes is a physical dysfunction, whereas depression is not; it's an emotion.

I gave an example before that physical dysfunctions might CAUSE, usually indirectly, depression. Like brain damage can cause people to lose their mental faculties a bit, like their memory, so then they get frustrated and depressed because they can't do the things they used to.

But still: physical dysfunctions of the human body, and emotions, are two entirely separate categories of things. The word "depression" does not describe a physical dysfunction. "Brain damage" does. And so do more specific terms, like CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy), which is just a type of brain damage. But "depression" refers to a mood, an emotion.

A psychiatrist might say "ah well then there's major depressive disorder (MDD) which is a mood DISORDER rather than just a mood". But all that means is that some people wrote into a book that being very down in life is a disorder. That's all it means. It's still true that "depression" is just a mood / emotion; it doesn't describe a physical dysfunction.

>>11280076
>I gave an example before that physical dysfunctions might CAUSE, usually indirectly, depression. Like brain damage can cause people to lose their mental faculties a bit, like their memory, so then they get frustrated and depressed because they can't do the things they used to
You're right anon. I need to pay attention better. Thanks /b/ro.

>>11279977
I just skipped around a bit, but in 30:00, he seems to describe obvious, severe autism.

>>11279977
I would just like to interject and say that Sapolsky is wrong about Schizophrenics not being harmful to others. Schizophrenics do harm others, and quite a bit.

>>11279101
That is one of the most fascinating books I've read, well worth your time

>>11280131
It's also bullshit. A waste of time.

>>11280034
I'm trying to be clear. Maybe I failed (enlglish is not my first language) but maybe you just didn't understand me. My intention was to convey a massive amount of substance and not the other way around, and maybe that was a mistake.
>Schizophrenia is either a physical problem or a mental "emotional problem".
This is wrong. While it is true that psychological objects are not physical objects, it is false that they are independent. You say that brain damage "causes" decline of cognitive function (I understand this is what you mean by "directly") and that this decline will bring about depression. While this is true, it is also true that brain injuries can cause depression (and psychoses, by the way) in direct form. You seem to think that "emotions" (the psychological objects are way more variate than this) do not have a physical correlate in the brain, which is wrong.
Even your "indirect depression" necesarily has a brain correlate (we call this disfunction because it would be not desirable, not because it is "wrong" in itself) because the way you learn about it (a patient behaving and telling you things in certain ways) implies a determined brain function or change of function which is in itself of physical nature.
So what we call a mental disorder is recognizable by psychological means, but that doesn't mean it has no biological correlates that we can call "dysfunction" once identified.
It is very difficult to convey so many concepts in such few lines. Maybe you brainlets need to understand that real psychiatry (not today's toy) is based in complex sciences and start taking it seriously.

>>11280097
Yes this is the concrete thinking, but it is only one aspect. The concrete thinking might be part of the problems with schizophrenics not being able to adaptively interpret their own abstractions. It's also interesting that schizophrenic symptoms often start to reveal themselves in adolescence which is the same period where people typically start to develop their abstract reasoning.

>>11280128
Is there data on this? I think he is saying that the social withdrawal is what inhibits them from actualizing violence against other people so the violence tends to be directed at themselves.

Also I meant to link this one also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4

Because it talks about the influence of adaptive schizotypals I mentioned here >>11279951

>>11279883
115 IQ post

>>11280143
>You seem to think that "emotions" (the psychological objects are way more variate than this) do not have a physical correlate in the brain
No I don't think that; every emotion obviously does. When you're happy, your brain will have certain chemicals and electrical impulses that are giving you that feeling. Same for sadness, sexual arousal, all this shit - of course there are hormones and electrical impulses that bring about all these emotions.

But still, emotions are not the same as a physical dysfunction of the brain.

A physical dysfunction of the brain would be something like a non-functional pituitary gland, or brain damage, or whatever.

When someone says you have depression all they're saying is that you're experiencing a mood. If that person is going to contend that there's something actually wrong with your brain, then they'd need to find and diagnose that problem. E.g. brain damage, a non-functional pituitary gland, whatever. "Depression" in itself does not identify any physical dysfunction, it just describes a mood/emotion, that's all.

Also low feelings are healthy and normal for a completely normally functioning brain, in certain circumstances, because that's what depression is - an emotional reaction to circumstances. Anyone who lost a loved one, for example, will feel low. Anyone who loses their job will feel low.

>>11280169
hmmmmm this post is intriguing

>>11280154
>The concrete thinking might be part of the problems with schizophrenics not being able to adaptively interpret their own abstractions.
What does it mean? What does it have to do with abstraction at all?
>which is the same period where people typically start to develop their abstract reasoning.
What do you mean by abstract reasoning? I don't think it means what you think it means.

>>11280178
Think of concrete thinking and abstract thinking as opposites but an adapted person needs both. Exclusive concrete thinkers interpret everything literally and physically, they struggle with abstraction, figurative speech, metaphors etc. And yes, exclusive concrete thinking also refers to the problem in autism.

>>11280192
there is some substantial substance and intuition here holy fuck

>>11280154
He seems to have some problem with forming categories, or mabe he thinks that answering 'fruit' would be too trivial, and answers everithing super literally. But in any case it seems to be the inverse of what schizophrenia is seacribed to be, the person is hyper precise and absolutely literal in how he interprets language, but you would expect the opposite from somebody with such a disease. (Unless they are, I don't know, on a too strong dose of antipsychotics)

>>11280192
Ok, let me show you an example:
Concrete
>how many apples so I need to add to six apples in order to have fifteen apples
Abstract version of the same
>6 + x = 15

>>11280207
Right, so it is going to be a struggle to explain what the variable x is to someone who is stuck in concrete thinking.

>>11279850
Find yourself a cougar with money and be done with it mate. I've done it with flings in the past without trying. If you're half as attractive as you pretend you should be abusing the hearts and wallets of lonely aged women like nobody's business.

>>11280233
The point is that the variable isn't anything specific. It's just that a variable. Nothing in that equation refers to anything concrete, it's just the abstraction.