/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11255968
Freedom to self select, population differences in personality traits, opportunistic career choice, high financial security and social safety net availability

The more attention you give to solving social issues, the less you give to solving scientific ones. Modern science has outpaced the educational system and so young adults are less aware of opportunities within the scientific community now than they were 50 years ago.

>>11255968
If they don't need to study STEM to break out of a low socio-economic status, they won't. You spergs forget this but 99.9% of people on earth wouldn't stomach STEM even if it meant a six figure salary.

Women in undeveloped 3rd world countries study STEM for more economic opportunities. Women in developed countries don't have to worry about economic opportunity, so they are less inclined to study STEM.

Or in other words, the average woman just simply doesn't have an intrinsic interest in STEM, so the effort for more female representation in STEM is bullshit.

>>11255968
>more gender equality
and i guarantee the way they measure this in no way takes into account the attitudes of the culture. ignoring the different environment and societal expectations that boys/girls experience is seriously dishonest. and thats not to say that there is no "natural" difference in interest in these subjects, but there is absolutely no way to determine that

>>11255990
>but there is absolutely no way to determine that
That's what you want, but it's not the reality. You need to take off your ideological blinders for once.

>>11255981
This, specially women.

>>11256029
what are you trying to say? show me how you know that cs should be 90/10 in favor of men vs 60/40.

>>11256044
>moving the goalposts
>changing the subject
Why? You said
>thats not to say that there is no "natural" difference in interest in these subjects, but there is absolutely no way to determine that

>>11255968
It's been called 'the gender equality paradox' for a while. Only people making profit out of feminist ideology (big businesses, ngo's, etc) still live oblivious to these facts.

>>11255972
/thread

>>11256125
i'll make it more clear: there is currently a gap in men vs women pursuing stem. how can you ever tell if this is due to some innate difference in men/women or due to environment? assuming there is an innate difference, how do you know what the proportions should be for when we've reached "full equality"?

>>11256149
Not him, but it sounds like you are asking other people to do your homework. Look for the studies and learn their methodology.

>>11256151
nobody has the answers to these questions, thats the point. but what we should strive for is decreasing gendered biases in society so we can achieve the most free society possible. if that gets to 50/50 split in all fields, great. if it exposes these innate differences in interests between men/women, also fine.

>>11256149
>how can you ever tell if this is due to some innate difference in men/women or due to environment?
Did you read the study referenced by the OP as well as similar studies? Not to mention differences in brain anatomy.
>how do you know what the proportions should be for when we've reached "full equality"?
What do you mean by "should be" and by "full equality"? What on earth does that mean?
>nobody has the answers to these questions
Maybe try reading the relevant literature.

>>11255968
equality is just a shit test. they don't actually want to do this boring nerd shit.

>>11256187
Based and genderpilled.

>>11256180
>Did you read the study referenced by the OP as well as similar studies? Not to mention differences in brain anatomy
do you really think we have the ability to make casual links between brain anatomy and career choices?
>What do you mean by "should be" and by "full equality"? What on earth does that mean?
if we had a society free from any gender bias, what proportion of men/women in stem would be expect?
>Maybe try reading the relevant literature.
can you show me something relevant? or are you just holding these positions without ever having thought longer than 30 seconds about it?

>>11256165
based

>>11256201
>if we had a society free from any gender bias, what proportion of men/women in stem would be expect?

Impossible to say, since "gender bias" is a nebulous term describing a thing which can be said to exist, on a systemic scale, no matter the society or the circumstances.

>>11256201
>do you really think we have the ability to make casual links between brain anatomy and career choices?
Of course we do, dummy. There's a whole field called neuropsychology that studies the relationship between the brain and real-world behaviors. Or do you think people's behaviors and choices are independent of their brain structure?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences
>if we had a society free from any gender bias, what proportion of men/women in stem would be expect?
What do you mean by "gender bias"? Does that include anything and everything that causes gender differences? Because then you're fighting against biology itself.
>can you show me something relevant?
Start here: https://quillette.com/2019/03/29/denying-the-neuroscience-of-sex-differences/..
>or are you just holding these positions without ever having thought longer than 30 seconds about it?
Hard projection.

>>11256187
this, equality is just how women see if you're a beta and/or gullible enough to put yourself as her equal. look, i know it's a nice thought but women do not respect their equals or inferiors. if you want a woman's respect you have to dominate her. that is how fucked they are in the head.

>>11256229
>What do you mean by "gender bias"?
it means "i want gibs because of my pussy"

>>11255981
Ew gross
I like stem because it’s weird and hard, and offers insights into reality
I’ll make money off it but only as necessary
Imagine being cucked by the money meme into not spergily gazing at the universe through a haze of mental building blocks

>>11255968
Women don't like social isolate activities and few women in this activities quickly search for mananger positions.

Developer countries STEM are gateway to avoid poor or inmigration.

Almost every women in STEM in west is Asian or Europe of East inmigran or children inmigrant

>>11256229
you seem to be arguing against a strawman, i didnt say there are no differences in the brain structure of men and women. i said nobody has made casual links between brain structure and career choices

>>11255968
They miscounted, the numbers are always 50/50 men and women it's just that many of those women have a penis.

Once the polling data stops being transphobic, we'll realize that there never really was any pay gap or glass ceilings or men/women dominated fields just systemic problematic cis statisticians leading us all astray.

>>11255981

This^ is the only correct answer. STEM and Medicine are basically one of the few safe ways to get out of poverty. In third and second world countries you either throw your daughter into STEM, sell her to the fashion industry/ wealthy men if she's pretty enough or turn her into some live incubator for rich couples over in India.

The average female does not dream about being an academic slave. Nor dream about getting induced in high levels of stress working +100 hrs in a hospital as a nurse or doctor. That's what men are supposed to be there for but since they're poor they have no choice.

>>11255968
men are made. women are born.

>>11255968
That’s not exactly accurate. Culture is a big factor. stem is still seen as masculine in the west vs in the Middle East and other nations. Doesn’t help that being a woman in stem sucks out in the west.

>>11256349
lol cope. it's the same in the east.

every woman I know is somehow affiliated with a pyramid scheme (scentsy, essential oils, etc)

>>11256349
yes, those vile Swedish sexists. They should learn more about gender quality from their progressive Muslim neighbors.

>>11256301
What realistic alternative cause is there?

>>11255968
empower women = more safety nets = fewer consequences for poor choices = easier career paths pursued.

It's the stage of good times make weak men. In this case good times make lazy women.

>>11255968

>>11256250
Yeah, not all women though.

>>11256353
>Swedes are all about equality
No they are about getting upvotes to show off. Back in the day they were huge on eugenics, forced sterilization and other stuff because that was “the future”. Not to mention how much of a strong grip 45+ year old folk have on stuff.

>>11256371
>le nawalt meme
so where is this unicorn?

>>11256334
>The average female does not dream about being an academic slave. Nor dream about getting induced in high levels of stress working +100 hrs in a hospital as a nurse or doctor. That's what men are supposed to be there for but since they're poor they have no choice.


This.
T.woman

>>11256350
The disparity is notably smaller.

>>11256373
>things that happened generations ago
>meanwhile in islam today

>>11256334
Yet women are in a ton of positions in healthcare.

>>11256378
uhuh, the middle east is a bastion of gender equality.

>>11256374
What does a unicorn mean in this instance?

>>11256380
Because nursing pays well and does not require much schooling. Nursing for women is what trades are for men.

>>11256380
as nurses, they don't do the hard stuff.

>>11256382
Gender equality isn’t exactly uniform. You can good in one aspect yet bad at others.

>>11256388
lol you've never been to the middle east have you?

>>11256385
To actually get good pay in it you need to pursue it at a bachelors and above degree in nursing to actually have career progression in many nations.

>>11256392
despite that nurses are the most incompetent people in healthcare other than admin.

>>11256379
You know the stupidest shit about this the whole veil thing isn't in any of their books, only degenerate imams pushed it
the whole veil thing was a one time deal to protect women from getting raped when they were staying in some dangerous city
and the really important line is that men were supposed to cast down their gaze
and the whole prohibition on alcohol according to the nooks should only apply to alcohol made from grapes, meaning all other alcohol is fine...
there is plenty of fucked up stuff in the books but degenerate misogynist imams are the root cause of much of the problems

>>11256405
>misogynist imams
aka imams

>>11256405
>>11256411

How about 'unreasonably misogynistic' as in the ones that go too far?

>>11256334
>STEM and Medicine are basically one of the few safe ways to get out of poverty.
not when 3rd-worlders are literally imported to take your job

>>11256419
you mean the ones proscribing camel urine to fight cancer?

>>11256165
/thread × 999

>>11256392
Yeah, but if your options are making minimum wage or getting a nursing certificate in half a year and making 60k then what do you think is the better choice? The people that pursue it on a bachelors lever or higher could have pursued other well paying careers if they chose to. Nursing is a safe option regardless of your education level.

>>11256287
This

>>11256287
Post feet

>>11256405
This, except i remember reading that muhammad declared alcohol haram in one of his hadith, but in the quran alcohol is never "banned," just not recommended to drink

>>11255972
>high financial security and social safety net availability

You heard it here first folks.
Want women out of STEM? Elect Bernie.

Easily solvable with variations of military draft. Simply keep a list of women that don't pursue the socially expected career or education and draft them into it or something else that is considered of great social importance. Bachelor taxes for all genders are useful tool as well.

>>11255986
/thread

>>11256165
>lets spend 100 years and 800 trillion dollars doing social gender studies to find out women are different than men

makes sense

>>11256165
It must hurt being this retard

>>11256344
this

if you take this into account and put all the manbabies in the women category, then suddenly your a lot closer to 50/50 in STEM fields.

>>11256149
>should be
>people should behave according to their biological nature
People should do what they think will make them happy. Cultural motivations are not inherently bad. Biological difference just offer an explanation to the gap.

>>11256250
based school shooter

>>11255990
Pic related is a different study based on HDI and STEM interest, rather than gender equality and STEM participation, but shows pretty much the same issue. In poor countries kids say they're interested in everything, in rich countries kids pick and choose what they're interested in and it falls into gender stereotypes - boys like explosions and mechanical things, girls like health and working with people.
Better throw some more scholarships at girls and trick them into a lifetime of regret.

Gee whiz it's almost like women aren't predisposed to stem

Women don't like science
They like making and nurturing babies

>>11255968
It's because less people in general go into STEM in countries with good socio-economic prosperity, because most people don't want to spend their lives on mentally taxing jobs, they want to be comfortable for the least amount of effort. For women it's partly societal, for the same sorts of reasons you're currently seeing less male teachers.

>>11256320
based

>>11255968
It has turned away seriously worthy women. If there's a word for it, I'd like to know. The same as when a good worker feels shame to be employee of the month because he is associated with the other bozos who were picked from the hat.

>>11255968
See >>11257158, it is everybody else's fault.

>>11255968
This is some psy ops population control shit that USA is going under and nobody bats an eye.
Its incredible.

>>11256384
Men, on average, marry women of lower or equal status (in the female hierarchy) than themselves (in the male one). Women tend to marry men of equal or greater status. The unicorn here, presumably, is the subset of women who would have a preference/tendency to marry men of lower or equal status.

>>11258135
[eqn]\frac{\pi}{27}[/eqn]

>>11255968
>tfw an award winning Norweigian documentary covered this in exahuasting detail 10 years ago
https://youtu.be/E577jhf25t4
>it has been forgotten
>wage gap and push females into stem shit is still everywhere

>>11255968
>>11255990
>>11256149
>>11256165
>>11256201
>>11256301
>>11256349
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0163638300000321

>Sex differences in human neonatal social perception

>Sexual dimorphism in sociability has been documented in humans. The present study aimed to ascertain whether the sexual dimorphism is a result of biological or socio-cultural differences between the two sexes. 102 human neonates, who by definition have not yet been influenced by social and cultural factors, were tested to see if there was a difference in looking time at a face (social object) and a mobile (physical-mechanical object). Results showed that the male infants showed a stronger interest in the physical-mechanical mobile while the female infants showed a stronger interest in the face. The results of this research clearly demonstrate that sex differences are in part biological in origin.

>>11258135
Okay cool. I get it now.

But I'm not sure what this has to do what I original said. I was referring to the women wanting all men to dominate them. I'm sure a big majority of them do but I dont. That being said, my fiance is the breadwinner, going for his PhD right now. I work to but I'm mostly the domestic one tending to the house, groceries, cooking, etc.

>>11258261
Your husband is a lucky one

>>11255968
70% of STEM graduates in Iran are female.

>>11258309
Source?
Also if that's the case I guess it's time to embrace superior Iranian culture.

>>11258309
ah yeah, those highly competitive and innovative iranian universities, leading the field in STEM unlike the US where men predominate. reminds me of all that great research coming out of uh, China!

>>11258278
I'm the lucky one. We ate going g for the more traditional type of relationship/marriage and it's working great for us. He wants me to quit working once we have kids and raise them instead of putting them in daycare.

It's probably because no one knows better than women that STEM jobs are better suited to men.

>>11258350
We are going for*

>>11255968
>>11252339

>>11258331
>ah yeah, those highly competitive and innovative iranian universities
per capita they publish some of the most papers, and also they rule american tech
JPL and NASA are full of them, and JPL was literally run by an iranian.

I guess no one is going to believe me because I wrote this on the internet, but I'm a life-long leftie. Even I am able to recognize why, given the opportunity, women choose NOT to go into STEM fields. If you've ever rubbed shoulders with any engineers, as just one example, you will quickly realize what made them gravitate toward that field. They were "handy" from an early age. How many women do you come across in everyday life who are naturally "handy". Yes, you will find some. But as a general rule, there aren't that many out there. With men, the picture is reversed. This should not be a controversial statement. I agree with most of what the left tries to do, but with this one thing, I believe the left can amend itself to recognize and allow in certain realities that are not even fully scientifically understood as of present.

>>11258403
mostly iranian males, though....

>>11258309
No they aren’t 60% if bachelor degree recepients in Iran are women (that includes ALL majors). I asked my engineering buddy who went to Sharif (top engineering university in Iran) and he said his classes had 3 girls in them.

>>11258555
Not really.
Even recently I came across something from a female Iranian scientists:
>Leyla Soleymani
https://phys.org/news/2019-12-self-cleaning-surface-repels-deadliest-superbugs.html
>>11258567
>muh friend's anecdote
actual statistics say 70% of STEM graduates in Iran are female.

>>11255968
big think

>>11258597
>>11258309

yes because Iran is a poor country

>>11255968
It is tempting to leap to simple answers but consider: two different vectors might exert pressure in opposite directions along the same axis. For instance female engineers might make a larger portion of the number of engineers in India than in the West because the pressure to survive in a hostile environment can make people do socially unacceptable things. If the choice is between survival and conforming to social expectations most people will opt for survival. As the pressure to survive decreases the pressure to conform is still there and so you might see a larger shift in that direction.

>>11258456
Engineering is different from other STEM fields. It requires spatial reasoning. If you look at, say, computer science the answer is much less clear.

>>11255968
Maybe women aren't that interested in nerdy shit

>>11256201
>>11256180
>>11256149
>>11256125
>>11256044
>>11256029
The only way to get 50-50 in anything is to enforce it socially and institutionally. Meaning to invent culture to align with your ideology and then say 'see! I was right!' Although this seems rather tough because people are already trying this and it doesn't work even with extreme discriminatory policies and zero standards for one sex.

more gender equality = richer countries = less people forcing themselves to do soulless STEM shit in order to earn a good living
look at India where every pajeet is trying to be a programmer

>>11255968
women get their orbiters to study maths and solve problems for them

>>11255968
The western woman has everything. Why would they labour through STEM?

>>11255981
aaaand that's why i hate STEM now. too many people do it just for the money

>>11256369
What the fuck kind of STEM degree can you get in fucking Algeria? Telephone operator? Toaster repair?

>>11258331
>ah yeah, those highly competitive and innovative iranian universities, leading the field in STEM unlike the US where men predominate.
Heh.

>>11256421
lol, I never took anyone's job, there's a massive shortage of physicians in germany, I just took a job that was already waiting 4 years to be fullfilled

>>11261882
Algeria is as rich as china per capita ppp.
It's second world tier