/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11246473
did you leave /x today or something?

My guess is that changes in temperature affect the growth rate differently for different angles of faces of the crystal, so if it grows faster, it isn't just sped up, there's a different growth proportion. This would be caused by the fact that a certain angle might allow growth more easily due to what angles the water molecules are available for hydrogen bonding at, and not only that, but that their growth rate would vary differently with respect to temperature. So then it makes sense that on a particular day, the snowflakes look similar, because of their similar but not identical condions, but then another day the conditions will be different enough to get a whole different type of snowflake. And the reason it's not just a spectrum of snowflakes (able to be expressed in one parameter) is because things like humidity level are also factors acting in a similar way.

>>11246486

I'm told there is some crystal formulation that explains it, but its easier just to sum it up as sorcery and be done with it.

>>11246478

You'd notice these things too if you laid off the tap and bottled water and stuck to rain collectors.

If you can find a place without chemtrails, that is.

>>11246473
yeah it's unseen forces of design called the laws of physics and thermodynamics

>>11246564

That itself is not a causal explanation. That would be analogous to saying satellites work from electricity. While true, that information would not be useful in explaining satellites.

The answer, while technical, is itself actually simple. It certainly isn't sorcery. The term you are searching for is instead witchcraft.

you all know whos responsible, right?

Water Mole has D3 symmetry. When these free and combine they can only form hexagonal patterns. The thermodynamical processes make the patterns appear random but they are all based off of D6 symmetry.

>>11246666

Does that explain why one branch is (nearly) identical at the tips as the other five branches, yet unique from other flakes?

Its the fact that they arent connected at the tips yet still following the same pattern that is curious.

>>11246473
Spontaneous symmetry breaking due to inherent randomness in the universe

>>11246557
>muh tap water hurr durr *dart sounds*
thanks for admitting you come from /x/

>>11246685
yes, it does explain it. it is curious, but not mystical or unexplained

>>11246690

Its not the pill you take, its the water you take it with, silly.

>>11246685
Yes, well I answered your magical question. Your welcome. Study group theory a bit more. I suggest studying crystallographic groups or space groups.

It's probably the best application of group theory IMO -> crystallography. Great science.

>>11246692

Im just having fun. I dont know how crystals can follow near identical patterns that are separated physically, and am curious as to not only how common this ignorance is, but having it myself, can't figure it out myself. I appreciate the serious answer, even if I dont understand it. I have to assume its simply mimicked repetitions. That is, if I stack blocks in the exact same place according to whatever polarities, I will get nearly identical results. Thats the best I can figure, that its causal of course but repeated and probably not perfect upon closer look.

I g2g, but thank you.

>>11246715
Any crystal in nature comes from translations of one of 14 Bravais Lattices. I studied these in my undergrad as my introduction to math research.

>>11246690
imagine being this stupid on a science board, cringe lord

>>11246715
Everything follows identical patterns, the reality is designed that way

http://esotericawakening.com/the-occult-significance-of-the-number-6

>>11247017

I wonder what parts of the mind work that way. When I was a kid, I had a dream that I was flying over a tropical forest,

The only thing I remember was that I started noticing the tree tops were in repeating patterns.

I used to mod a video game. After doing it a while, I started noticing patterns in many things around me. In (older) video games, patterns recur and are only somewhat more obvious. In both reality and the game, the mind generally looks for patterns and yet dismisses them. For example, you will notice a stream of tail lights and yet utterly ignore the grain of a piece of wood.

When Obamas presidential portrait came out, I was at least one of the first people who noticed something was odd about it and couldn't figure out what was triggering me to stare at it. Eventually I and others realized there was a stencil pattern in the leaves. Much like video games, the pattern changed angles and masked itself, but was still there if you looked. So we noticed it even though it wasn't obvious.

Pattern recognition is itself a strange thing. Patterns themselves are almost but not quite an invention of imagination. They sort of exist and dont exist at the same time. Our perception seems to be what assigns relevance to it. Just think about all the strange things we imagine from patterns that arent there. Like how people remain convinced that the natural "order" exists for man, not that man exists because of the "order" when technically, neither is true. People remain convinced that a changing climate is somehow 'bad' or 'good', or that the universe must have some objective quality of 'size', or that evolution has a 'direction'...

>>11247670


...
My favorite is imagining a 'problem' that then sets forth an assumption of a solution or lack of one, literally forcing an imaginary context for an event that confuses causality and demands the mother of all pattern recognition, reason.

All these things from the human imagination infusing into pattern recognition of causality, yet none of it is really there until we observe and conclude it is.

>>11246473
Maybe if you weren't retarded you might consider the local electric field the snow flakes grew in the resulting imperfections in the lattice structure and their long range implications.

But feel free to appeal to which ever spooky force works for you

>>11246473
Snowflakes are anisotropic due to ambient energy working on very small particles. Take a look at any fractal, its a self similar pattern derived from a simple equation. That’s basically how a snowflake forms. Also there are negligibly different snowflakes. Thinking each snowflake has a fundamentally different pattern is Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment bullshit, like thinking a photon knows if its being watched.

>>11248383
> the local electric field the snow flakes grew

Is there a word for this, when people pretend to be giving an informed answer by tossing together a word salad of vaguely scientific terms that aren't really saying anything?

>>11248396
>like thinking a photon knows if its being watched


This is a great point. I wish I heard this realism more often.

>>11248513
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~atomic/snowcrystals/electric/electric.htm

You can lead a horse to water

>>11248513
It's only world salad to the illiterate

Literally the first hit on a Google search of snow flakes and electric fields answers your question in graphic detail

OP is an entirely new kind of asshole to me. Never seen someone make such a joke of their own ignorance and dig their heals in at the same time. He should be sent to a mental institution to be studied.

>>11248520

So you can't actually explain it yourself, but you can post a link and imply the person your linking it for is the idiot.

The awareness of knowledge and knowledge are not the same. I don't become a genius by becoming a librarian and being able to point to books.

Or like this fellow: >>11248531 who literally (and somewhat suspiciously) claims the other posters "knowledge" happened coincidentally to be the first Google link. Literally trying to affect wisdom by taking credit for googling.

I'm betting its common on this board. I sense a lot of people here will end up being teachers in public education and go on to consider themselves educators by giving a lot of bubble tests-

" 1. The symmetry seen on snowflake spokes can be explained by:

(a) Elvish magic
(b) The mood mother nature is in
(c) String Theory
(d) A scientific article in your Google textbook on page 1.

"Everyone passed. Golly, I'm such a smart teacher."

>>11248556
Chill bro. Dude answered your question and someone shared a link to a detailed explanation.

If you're too lazy to work through the implications or to read that's on you. Maybe if you ask nicely someone will be willing to spoon feed it to you.

The below is a work of fiction

> How To: Sufficiently Advanced Technology

microwave survalence tool to listen to the words in one's head

> See Tophat embassies also see Cuban embassy
> Microwaves can be used to power 'powerless' antena to transmit sound
> When humans think, they make small, sub-vocal movements with their voice box
> Use the human skull, spine, or voice box as a powerless antena to transmit these subvocal movements
> If this transmission isn't clear enough for the human ear, use machine learning to make it so

>>11248556
What make the magic elvish?

>>11248603


Well, snow, of course.

>>11248583

There were at least two good and knowledgeable answers given. Posting the first google link and then having the gall to imply superior knowledge citing simply 'electrical fields' (coincidentally the same explanation for lightning, quantum tunneling, burnt hot pockets and 90% of the phenomenon of the universe) does not constitute an answer or worthwhile reply. With that sort of sloppy response, he may as well cited magnets or zero-point energy.

>>11246666
What's the mapping? Can you write a definition of the function, im curious

>>11246686
This

>>11248706
Having common knowledge doesn't make one superior, but lacking it does make you inferior

>>11248782

Certainly. There is no knowledge more common than crystallography. I think it was just past Saturday I overheard two grandmothers in the grocery check-out discussing the base-centered orthorhombic lattices in the quilts they were making for their grandsons Christmas present.

>>11246473
Most ice crystals don't look like this and not all snowflakes are different.

>>11248556
I also can’t explain how a rocket-ship works. Doesn’t mean I think they don’t exist.

>>11248869
>not all snowflakes

This eerily seems like a 2020 slogan for the DNC race

>>11248885


If I were the typical poster here, I would explain to you that rocket-ships could be explained by fire, link you to an article on the 'tyranny of rockets' and then call you stupid for not knowing what it was by third grade and linking to the first article in Google after dropping a few terms I found on wiki.

Also, no one was doubting the existence of water crystals. But it was a worthy strawman.

>>11248921
>gets explained snowflakes about as well as someone who doesn’t study snowflakes can explain them
>AHA U CANNOD EXPLUN SNOOFLOK!
>Well we can’t explain rockets at the level of a rocket scientist either.
>HAHA U DUM ROCKET BIG BOOM BOOM FIRE BOOM
>ALSO HAHA U SAY SNOOOFLOOK DONUT EXIST

okay, I’m going to give you the best life advice you’ll ever receive. Kill yourself. Maybe not today, not tomorrow but soon and for the rest of your life.

>>11246473
Yes, god has finished his rest after the seven days of creations, now he dedicates his time to make perfectly symmetrical snowflakes, yes.

>>11248805
>>11248921
What is your aversion to reading? People have given you all the keywords you need to find the information you want. One guy or gal even gave you a link that literally spells it out.

Why ask a question if you don't want the answer? Just post you're homework assignment and we'll fill it out for you; it will take less time.

>>11246473
Fallacy of the false dichotomy.

Maybe there's a force or set of forces that act on snowflakes differently as they firm and drift down

>>11248556
I'm confused, are testing /Sci/ or looking for answers?

Cause if your looking for answers a librarian is exactly what you want.

any given point has set features that differ from other points (pressure, height, gravity, temperature, etc).
any set point may experience different events (single photon sent from a far star hits that point, radiowave sent from a microwave hits that point, someone farted sending a single shit molecule that hits that point, etc)
those are theoretically predictable if we knew everything but technically unpredictable since we can't know everything

>>11248986

>all the keywords

And there it is. /Sci/'s concept of education in three words. I finally understand why we import our engineers.

>>11249054
we're not getting paid to educate you though; you are already in debt to us, so to speak.

>>11249060

>(You)
>are already in debt
>to us

I wasn't talking about *my* education, you witless pleb.

>>11249054
I'm confused. Do you think /sci/ exists to educate you?

>>11246666
Only explains why snow flakes have six points. Doesn't explain why some snow flakes are different.

Also checked quads

>>11246473
>molecules assemble to form identical patterns on each branch of snowflake as if information is being transmitted and through frozen water
No. That's like saying if 6 people start walking away from each other at 60 degrees then they have to maintain communication to do so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUot7XSX8uA
>>11246473
>>yet each snowflake has its own unique structure from other snowflakes
Devil's proof / round-trip fallacy / mistaking absence of evidence for evidence of absence.
>>11246473
>>actually believing this could be caused by anything but deity magic or sorcery
Magical thinking. You fucking brainlet.

>>11246473
>identical patterns on each branch of snowflake

check your pic more closely...

they aren't identical at all.

>>11250899

Congratulations. You managed to make a half-ass forensic rebuttal using a poor, wholly mismatched analogy and focusing a challenge to common frames of reference without actually producing a single bit of information or an answer. The comic irony of course being that the first trope you reached for is 'devil's proof'.

At least now we know why lousy lawyers end up running for office, and found one hell of a big snowflake in the process.

>>11251123
Wait what? How do we know >>11250899
Is a lawyer?

Also what make him a bad one?
How do you know they're running for office?

>>11250899
Not OP. Nice video but doesn't explain anything other than the sun fold symmetry. Why do the arms form?

It just means that we are seeing an algorithm at work

>>11246666
Water molecules are C2v not D3.

>>11246473
If you mean "talk" as in "share information via magnetic/electrical/etc fields" I don't see what the problem is. Doesn't it make sense they'd interact over a highly conductive structure that they collectively make up? Share a similar charge that was based on a very minute difference atmospheric conditions?

Alright, back to basics.

These two crude diagrams represent the center of two snowflakes forming. Each are made of the same substance

The first assumption is that the first center of each is identical *at some level*. This itself may not be true

In this diagram, two 'spokes' have formed on each. What is in question here is why the spoke on one side, physically separated from its opposite, is in some basic way so very similar to its opposite (and four others to come) while the snowflake next to it, of the same material, is showing the same symmetry of physically separate spokes accumulating more distance from each other as they grow, yet maintaining symmetry, and at the same time wholly different from the formation of the flake next to it

I feel the answers have been given clearly itt. I'm just trying to illustrate what the point of interest is

I personally think its a fascinating example of causality, emphasizing again that the pattern exists somewhat in interpretation of pattern recognition. What is seen is the effect, not really the cause, & technically, we aren't really seeing either; we are more imagining a property (pattern effect) than seeing wholly unique independently distinct parts that, in our mind, have resemblance

Its probably all throughout the physical universe in ways we don't see, & therefore are unaware of their existence at the observable level. The spokes are in no way "trying" to look like each other; it is completely cause and effect. Its just the cause isnt observable, & the effect is more or less as random as anything

Which, although stretched, is somewhat a metaphor for what we observe as the distinction between living & nonliving objects. For all the complex causalities of matter that perpetuate as life, we distinguish them as life, but the distinction is made by our perception. An amino acid that ends up as waste has no more order that the DNA of a human. We just never notice all the things that never made it as a lifeform component

>>11252312

Also, I should point out the diagram simply shows two spokes on each for clarity, not to imply the spokes form one or two at a time.

Stop being a brainlet and read about the kinetics and thermodynamics of dendritic vs planar growth.

Also this isn't water specific, it applies to all solidification processes.

>>11246473
>>yet each snowflake has its own unique structure from other snowflakes

The macrostructure is different due to stochastic variation. The microscaled crystal structure is the same.

>>11253756

That is interesting. But when I look at this >>11253732, are they really symmetrical at some level at all? Or is it just an artifact, some sort of illusion?

The only real symmetry I see is a generally long spoke with tapering ends. If its just an illusion and its just ice crystals randomly stacking where ever they can, than its not really such a mystery, any more than why water freezes to the shape of its container.

It helps to remember that the snowflake isnt actually "growing", but rather that water vapor molecules surrounding the already frozen structure are just finding places to attach and freeze themselves. Presumably, the ambient conditions, gradients, mass, contaminants etc would all play a part. For example, maybe high altitude formed snow would produce a different primary center than low altitude formed snow

>>11253791
>>11253732


See, this looks more like the illusion of symmetry, not actual symmetry.

>>11253753

Why would I read when my brain has advanced me this far with just deduction?

>>11253791
>It helps to remember that the snowflake isnt actually "growing"

Except it is. The dendrite is literally growing into the liquid, and as it does so it moves a temperature gradient that keeps the process going. Read about how dendritic growth works. This isn't a mystery or anything. There's a ton of literature on it.

>>11253801

Well, thats what I meant, not that the vapor is already frozen when it attaches. I meant that its not water within the frozen surface itself, like a medium through a vessel.

Thats a really good diagram though. When you remove the notion of actual symmetry, as you said, its not such a mystery.