/sci/ - Science & Math

>>11201859
add a "wo" in front

gender is a socially defined trait that correlates with but is not defined by biological sex characteristics

am a biologist

>>11201859
Gender pronouns like “woman” and “man” aren’t biological terms so I dunno what you’d think biologists would think about it.

>>11201892
>>11201914
the obunga tribe in papau new guinea doesn't have a word for 'square' and you can't tell if a rectangle has exactly equal sides in practice, therefore squares are a social construct and a circle is just as much a square as any other shape if you feel like it. dont try to refute this unless you have a math degree

>>11201935
>Weak false analogy

Yawn.

gender is a social construct and social sciences aren't reproducible or falsifiable

therefore gender is purely political and leftists kvetching about it are just leftists kvetching

>>11201892
Species is also socially defined. That doesn't a lion can suddenly become a butterfly

>>11201892
Species is also socially defined. That doesn't mean a lion can suddenly become a butterfly

>gender is a socially defined trait that correlates with but is not defined by biological sex characteristics

I think it's time to ignore biological reality to keep my job.

Gender is a social construct that develops around biological sex
But
I don't see why being a social construct means it needs to be deconstructed? Like Murder being illegal is a social construct, or cars driving on one side of the road or the other is, but people don't try and deconstruct those into anarchy usually lmao, why does gender need to be destroyed as a concept?

>>11202006
>Inb4 hurrr what about abortion, or assisted suicide, or the death penalty
Some people so want to legalize murder is some fashion lmao

>>11202006
>comparing laws to shitty social "sciences" claiming stupid shit contradicting to actual science

language is descriptive, when you arbitrarily change the meanings of words those words lose their utility

if "man" means "tranny" people will just say male, we're just witnessing the start of a euphemism treadmill for gender

>>11201892
>gender is a socially defined trait
Gender is a meme, only sex matters.

>>11201892
gender doesn't exist

>>11202048
this

>>11202006
>but people don't try and deconstruct those into anarchy
sure we do, people deconstruct murder into something that's legal or morally justified all the time. think of how much time people over on /pol/ spend fantasizing about violent retribution on their enemies. or just look at the death penalty.

>>11201892
Gender is correlated to the brain and hormonal balances, which don’t always match up with the physical genitalia since they develop at different times in the womb. That is backed up by MRI scans.

Than again, that’s the part goal posts get moved and they start calling people whose brain and ge it’ll genders don’t match defective, as if they are the arbitrators of what is and isn’t defective even as half of them probably jerk it to horse porn.

>>11201859
The way these people use gender makes it a completely pointless term. It's a label that tells you literally nothing about a person. Sex is the only useful descriptor.

>>11202073
>/pol/ does it so it's good
what kind of retarded nigger logic is this

>>11202138
i didn't say it was good, i said that it happens

We have mass mental illness taking over and instead of wondering what is causing it society decided to go along with it.

You go girl, cut off your dick and fill hate crime charges for anyone telling you otherwise!

>>11202142
the original question was why gender should be mindlessly deconstructed because "social constructs bad"

"/pol/ does it too tho" doesn't answer the original question, it nitpicks an example he chose to use

>/pol/ garbage
*hidden*

It's a social construct though.

Just like race or intelligence. I'm a member of the black "race" and still prefer to breed with white women, so fuck you

>>11201991
> Anonymous 12/06/19(Fri)04:58:22 No.11201991▶
File: 1575237978986.jpg (104 KB, 640x590)
104 KB
>gender is a socially defined trait that correlates with but is not defined by biological sex characteristics

>>11201859
Accurate.

>>11202149
the example he used didn't support his argument. if the examples fall apart then there is no argument.

>>11202147
someone is funding them and funding the harassment of those people who try to call out the madness.

>>11201892
Nice use of an ideological redefinition of the word "gender." That word was mostly a synonym for biological sex until the brainwashers got a hole of it. Unwash your brain mate.

>>11202176
the word expanded to gain new utility. that's what languages do.

>>11201914
"Man" and "women" are terms referring to biological sex in humans.

>>11202165
You still haven't answered the question, why mindlessly deconstruct everything? Destructive for the sake of destruction is the mentality of an angry animal.

>>11202177
>gain new utility
Such as?

wither there are no genders and we should focus solely on the two sexes and their reproductive roles and accept that there are intersex individuals or that there are two genders and that these two genders and pretty much assume the same thing this insistence on transgenderism is asinine and ignores reality
also sexuality is a further separate classification

>>11202181
it's not for the sake of destruction, it's because the old ideas were limiting and faulty.

>>11202182
to better reflect the scientific understanding that there can sometimes be disconnects between the experience of self that the brain perceives and the biological state of the rest of the body

>>11202183
>were limiting
Not really, we had plenty of words to describe a man in a dress or a woman thinking she's a man.
>and faulty
According to the branch of the "sciences" that can't actually reproduce their own studies, consists entirely of tenured commies, and generally is about as useful as a wet towel?

>>11202176
all language has ideology in it

>>11202193
>According to the branch of the "sciences" that can't actually reproduce their own studies, consists entirely of tenured commies, and generally is about as useful as a wet towel?
if you don't trust the science then why ask the question of scientists?

>>11202189
>the scientific understanding
Social sciences aren't sciences. The scientific method requires reproducibility, which is currently not a thing social sciences are capable of.
>there can be disconnects between the experience self and the body
Which we only consider valid in one subset of these disconnects, largely for political reasons. Nobody is chopping off hands to deal with alien hand syndrome.

>>11202195
You keep using the word "science" wrong. Scientific studies are replicable. The social sciences have coinflip odds of replicating a study at best. That is not science.

>>11202199
you might not like that they're sciences but that doesn't make them not science

>>11202194
And the language surrounding gender and "trans" people has been shaped entirely by political causes, and should not be accepted as evidence based.

>>11202204
You can keep repeating that they're sciences until you're blue in the face, but until you fix the replication crisis, the entire field is about as scientific as hermeticism and alchemy.

>>11202208
>but until you fix the replication crisis
i can't do that, i'm a biologist, not a psychologist

>>11202211
>keep repeating theories and conjecture from the social sciences
>defend the social sciences as definitely science, guys, for real, please ignore the ideology and failures to replicate
>is actually a biologist
so you're a layman in the "social sciences" yet you defend them as infallible?

>>11202214
i didn't defend them as infallible, i said that was the scientific understanding. whatever you think about the fallibility of social sciences, that IS the scientific understanding

>>11202189
>To better reflect the tenants of an insane neo-marxist cult that exists to redefine and pit every group in society against others and tear apart the fabric of society
Fixed that for you

>>11201859
>>11201892
The whole issue about this bullshit is that progressists intentionally use ambiguous language.

The words Men/Woman and Male/Female have always referred to sex, and the still do in 99% of the cases.

We already DO have words for the social genres, and those words are Masculine/Feminine.

So if you OP's post were written by an intellectually honest person it would read:

>There's no one way to be a masculine woman.

>Masculine women who get their period are [masculine] women

>Masculine women who get pregnant and give birth are [masculine] women

Which is a statement absolutely nobody would disagree with. But as I said leftists just abhor clear truth.

>>11202219
socialism is baked into the funding model of science, cry harder

>>11201892
You're not a very good biologist evidently

>>11202221
I call people males or females without looking at their genitals somehow tho

>>11202225
>I have no argument so I resort to claiming that my opponent is excessively emotional
Well, at least you conceded the point anon.

>>11202225
Thanks for admitting that the truth has taken a backseat to ideology.

>>11202234
this is 4chan, not a formal debate stage

>>11202237
you're right, OP better delete the thread, since we've proven the original question was broken from the get-go

>>11202218
And the term "scientific understanding" only has any useful weight if the science behind said understanding is testable and verifiable. When ideologues get into "scientific" positions and spout pseudoscience, their "understanding" ceases to be authoritative.

>>11202229
>>11202229
Because there are clear physical differences between males and females, anybody can tell at a glance.
Why are you pretending to be retarded?

>>11202238
>>11202239
You're still just admitting defeat. Which is fine of course. We're all wrong about things on occasion.

>>11202248
i'm not admitting defeat, i'm admitting apathy. obviously none of us came to this thread willing to budge on our positions

>>11202260
It's kind of strange phenomenon that reasoned arguments usually don't change minds. Both sides think they have the truth and are effectively just playing for their team. I wonder how often I turn out to be the delusional one.

>>11202242
I guarantee you've interacted with a trans person and never realized they were trans.

>>11202284
Online? Certainly. IRL? Absolutely not. Trannies are so hilariously delusional about how well they pass it's funny.

>>11201859
"Woman", "man" and their relative pronouns were invented for the sole purpose of specifying if you had a penis or a vagina.
Since all these fucking retards are so dead set in using the wrong words, then we might just as well specify the genital member before nouns and instead of pronouns, so we no longer have to dread trap shenaningans or other unnecessary misunderstandment.

Simple, effective, equal.

>>11202442
Genitals don't define us you creep.

>>11202581
Genitals define what genitals you have.
What the fuck is even gender meant to be and why the fuck would you want to advertise it.
If you were into traps and a girl-looking degenerates come around spedcifying he's a penis you would have much less second guessing to go through to find like minded people.

>>11202581
You make it hard to decide between a bait or brainlet pic

"Male" is biology and science.

"Man" is the whole character and spirituality that correlates with sex, but humans invented it to make reality more beautiful, and it is unrelated to biology.

E.g. "a handsome, decent young man ought to be short haired, confident, ambitious, stoic, and hard-working! What a beautiful young man! Look, our beautiful little boy is playing with trucks, maybe he's gonna be a mechanic when he grows up!"

>>11202747
Males and females have distinct brains, so you can't obtain the psychological characteristics of the opposite sex.

>>11201892
>correlates with but is not defined by biological sex characteristics
Explain the correlation

>>11202189
>disconnects between the experience of self that the brain perceives and the biological state of the rest of the body
Its called mental illness

>>11201958
>false analogy
Why are some things culturally relative but not others?

>>11202911
>Why are some things culturally relative but not others

A=B
C=B
D=E

D is not the same thing as C or A. It is E, not B.
I can not simplify this further.
Geometry describes something objective and physical, if idealized.
Gender describes the cultural norms associated with particular sexes, which differs between cultures.

>>11202924
>Gender describes the cultural norms associated with particular sexes, which differs between cultures.
Show me a culture where males take on more feminine gender roles and women more masculine ones.

>>11201859

ridiculous. what a sad thing, for an organization whose mission is to defend civil liberties and constitutional rights to be made into a joke. subversives, which i assume comprise most of 4chan's active users, should be shot and buried in an open grave.

>>11202924
You didnt answer my question

>>11202229
>>11202284
>you don't use scientific precision in your everyday life so the word doesn't mean what it means

>>11201892
So basically gender is a mental disorder

>>11202934
So you think there are universal masculine/feminine gender roles? If not how would you begin to classify? Obviously you can define masculine and femenine roles because cultures usually have different roles for men and women, but can you define a universal notion of masculinity and femininity from this?

>>11202976
>but can you define a universal notion of masculinity and femininity from this?
You can never prove a universal from an existential. Which is why the entirety of social sciences is retarded.
Masculinity is dependent on males, ontologically, so therefore a universal standard must exist.

>>11202983
>Masculinity is dependent on males, ontologically
Nice big words, it sadly says nothing. You never argued it depends solely on males, because some argue it is a culture sensitive. I.e. it only makes sense in relation to what a particular society deems.

>>11202028
What science is it contradicting?

Why is Hebraic word games not viewed as the cultural violence that it is? This is not a statement of anti-Semitism. This is not conspiracy paranoia. This is Semitic cultural violence and tribal warfare. Why is so hard for you all to see what is really going on? Why can't you see the patterns of people at play here? You guys deserve what you tolerate.

>>11203026
Keep arguing inside your slowly closing Overton window. But whatever you do, don't look out it.

>>11203006
>nice big words
Have you never read a book?
Masculinity is another word for maleness
Maleness is the essence of Males
An essence is the makeup of what a thing is
Therefore only males can posses masculinity. Anything else is a perversion of a males essence, and perversity, being a corruptive force, is bad. The end.

>>11203029
This whole thread is NPCs who think there's meaning to arguing semantics. NPCs think it matters one way or another. Holy shit NPCs are retarded.

>>11201859
>Men who get pregnant and give birth are men
Fucking kek, this can't be real

>>11203030
>Have you ever read a book?
Have you ever been called a pretentious retard?
>Maleness is the essence of Males
Ok, nice phil 101 bullcrap. You call maleness the essence of males. Gender roles could or couldn't be part of this essence. The whole point of the debate is to see if this actually the case. You haven't provided a good reason as to why this should be the case.

>>11201859
ACLU is an epic troll monster if this is real

>>11202976
Culture is downstream from biology. So our "culturally defined gender roles" are simply expressions in culture of biologically ingrained preferences.
As for classification, that's difficult because we're looking at statistical phenomenon when it comes to whole populations.
But we all have a pretty good idea what, in general, constitutes masculinity and femininity. Here's the main thing: our concepts are based on archetypes, not on definitions. We're all going to think of more or less the same thing when we picture a male or a female archetype. The difficulty arises when you depart from this archetype and look at the edge cases. Definitions use used to describe these edge cases: you define the borders of a category that allows you to neatly place a given instance into said categories.
It may simply be that this kind of definition isn't really appropriate in the first place, much like there's no clear way to define when a fetus or embryo becomes a human being.

>>11203047
>Have you ever been called a pretentious retard?
Low IQ cope. No surprise you're in the social sciences
Total evasion faggot
>Gender roles could or couldn't be part of this essence
Bullshit. Should the masculine do what is feminine? Thats contrary to its nature and is thus perverse and wrong. A males nature is to be masculine. If a male behaves otherwise, then he is perverse and corrupt.

Why can't we just refer to people via their genetic sex rather than gender if gender is such a complex topic?

>>11203058
>Culture is downstream from biology
I have no doubts there is a connection, but there is today scientific model that can explain social phenomena from a pure biological basis. I don't get how people can just claim this shit.
>>11203064
>Contrary to it's nature
No you retard, even though there have always been people who don't follow social conventions, it could be that the gender roles are inmaterial to the essence even of most males follow some sort of it. For example, in slme cultures certain homosexual acts were considered masculine, and in some they are not, how can you then claim a universality? Of your claim is purely moral, well then that has nothing to do with the discussion of the categories of "male" and "female".

>>11201859
im not a biologist but as a sane rational person id say males don't work that way.

>>11202225
That's fucking retarded. You're straight up throwing away evidence because it doesn't fit a narrative. you should be shot.

>>11203080
>in some cultures
I already made my point that you cannot derive a universal from an existential claim. Individual cases has no bearing what masculinity and feminity consist of. I have further argued that the origins of these differences are in corruption of the essence rather than a non existence of the essence at all.
"Gender roles" would assume a moral question. Is it wrong to expect males or females to behave a certain way? Should we make allowances for it? How should males and females behave? That is fundamentally moral and ethical. And its retarded that you're asking a science board to provide a moral argument since science doesnt exist for that purpose.

>>11203080
>I don't get how people can just claim this shit
Well it's because it's so intuitively obvious that it just seems like it has to be true. You can just go and read up how males and females differ in relative behavior across various species.

>>11201859
It's funny to me, that a lot of these "Transmen" are just Fag Hags that just pull this tranny shit to get attention. The rest are just Hideous Troons that want to get the Cuter GF they were denied or some other deranged goal. It's a fucking freak show with all the Freaks trying as hard as they can to be the biggest freak they can be. And know we got "Parents" trying to push there kids into becoming these god forsaken creatures just for the attention, and it's really going to fuck this kids up down to a medical level. That horse piss isn't good for you.

>>11201892
Even from a purely social perspective, no person who gets pregnant and gives birth should be considered a man. A man is what I am, and a person who births a child is not the same sex or gender as me.

>>11203091
>Individual cases has no bearing what masculinity and feminity consist of
If you are talking about universal claims then they must work for individuales cases. You seriously can't see how you could argue anything is the essence of anything and just scoff counterexamples as "corruption" of the actual essence? I also never made a claim about the existence of an essence, but that what is sometimes meant by gender roles or norms, are not necessarily relevant to the definition of this universal characteristic, or that they are not part of this definition. Well I never actually made a point about this, but that your answer was actually a non-answer. I'm just against the retarded claim that biology gives a solution to social problems.

Yes it is also a moral question in relation to if different groups of humans should act differently. But that is a different issue.
>>11203092
So? You can go and see how humans are the only species that has complex social rules and culture.

>>11202100
Okay tranny

>>11203118
that cat is in pain i think

>>11203144
>i'm just against the retarded claim that biology gives a solution to social problems
Somehow we agree more with each other than either of us do with this retarded board.

>>11203152
If it was that bad he would have bolted. He looks like a big cat so he should hold up.

>>11203163
Calm down anon, it`s just a faggy raider, gays and their dicksuckers always run everything

OP a man is a man and a woman is a woman, our DNA (male or female) changes every second and it follows it`s code, seethe and cope all you want or keep wasting billions trying to modify thousands of genes

>>11202193
kek, based af