/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10982258
sending humans into space is an inefficient idea.

>>10982258

We land probes on Mars all the time. They run around for years.
To date, no probe has lasted in Venus' atmosphere for more than a few seconds.
The atm pressure is equal to 3000 feet of water, the atm is made of acid, and the temp at the surface is 800 F.

The air is highly corrosive.

>>10982258
Bubblehabs by themselves are feasible but sustaining them is probably going to end up more difficult and/or costly than surface bases on Mars, likewise it will probably be a little harder to convince people to live in a fragile blimp suspended over the closest thing to Hell that exists in the observed universe without trying other places first.

We'll probably get there eventually, though. Just after we've established presence in more commercially viable and habitable places first and probably when we have means of actually exploiting anything in the Venusian atmosphere or on the surface.

>>10982258
atmospheric turbulence might prevent floating cities from being made practically. We currently understand Mars better.
>>10982278
>>more than a few seconds
bullshit. The Vega balloons lasted for >48 hours in Venus' atmosphere. Their batteries only lasted 48 hours and they appeared to be doing just fine when they ran down. The Venera probes also took about an hour to fall.

>>10982258
If you really want a colony it's a business case, so tell me about the economy of a Venus colony, what are the imports and exports? Is there anything of value? Anything you can not get somewhere else cheaper?

Mining asteroids could be profitable, but Venus?

>>10982784
>spend billions on sending probe to another planet
>equip it with batteries that only last 48 hours
wew. why didnt they add some wind turbines on it or some shit

>>10982258
We were suppose to colonize EUROPA, Jupiter's satellite. I hate Elon Musk, I hate NASA and I hate (you).
Fuck (all of you).

Pretty sure it's the same rabid retard who spams this thread every fucking week, gets btfo and reposts it anyway. Fuck off.

>>10983869
Wind turbines don't work that well when the balloon blows with the wind. They were a secondary probe. Also this was 1980s tech and was the first time we flew anything on Venus. They were also the first aircraft to fly on another world. They are also the only aircraft to have 'flown' on another world.

>>10983033
mining asteroids isn't profitable unless their material is used in space. And what profit do you get from using said material in space? Also asteroids can be reached faster from Venus than they can from Earth or Mars because phasing opportunities occur more often.
>>10983984
Europa is bathed in deadly radiation. A day on the surface and there's a 50% chance you'll be dead in a month. The real problem isn't the time you spend on the surface, it's the time you spend in Jupiter's rad belts getting there. So you need a tank of a spacecraft to get people there safely.

>>10982258
We can barely even get to the Moon. (With modern technology I'm not even sure if that's possible). You may as well be arguing which star system is better for a Dyson swarm. It makes no difference because it's not going to happen.

>>10983033
I can't see much economic purpose for a Venus colony either, unless we have a good way of extracting and utilizing the shitloads of carbon and other raw materials directly from the atmosphere.
>>10984224
>mining asteroids isn't profitable unless their material is used in space.
Wat

Getting the infrastructure up there would take some time and investment, but returning mined material to the surface of a planet wouldn't really be difficult, especially if you can easily package it from orbit using small amounts of the materials themselves.

>>10982258
It's closer but requires more dV to get to, so it's not actually cheaper. You get a slight advantage in light speed lag for communications but it's still not enough for real time communication so doesn't really change anything. Iirc 2.5 to 15 mins of lag rather than 4.5 to 21 for Mars. I don't know off the top of my head if Venus spends more or less time in Superior Conjunction with the Sun though.
You also can't economically reach and mine the surface. This limits your ISRU capabilities. You can make things from the atmosphere but you're very limited. That means more imports and more money. And theres just less of some resources. Venus is dry. 400x less water than Mars, at least.

>>10984941
>>can't economically mine the surface
prove it

>>10982258
every time I see this thread I wanna kill myself
venus shills shut thE fuc K UP

>>10984944
Even if you ignore the atmosphere, you still have to get enough material into orbit for it all to be worth it.

>>10982258
it is now shut about it while all the liberals go to mars to be contained

>>10984224
You do realize that water (the stuff Europa is made of) is one of the best high frequency radiation blockers? If you were a couple miles down in the liquid ocean (where all the geothermal vents are) you would effectively be immune to any kind of radiation from Jupiter.

>>10985721
Irrelevant. The issue at hand is getting people there without them getting acute radiation syndrome. You think you're just going CANNONBALL! straight through jupiter's radiation belts and directly into the ice? Landing on europa's going to require whatever's landing there spend significant time in the radiation belts, mean if you want the people onboard not to die it needs to have massive amounts of shielding. And why bother with Europa? Callisto has plenty of ice and crap too, but isn't located in a radiation belt.
>>10985128
ISRU, means you utilize the resources IN-SITU.

>>10982784
>atmospheric turbulence might prevent floating cities from being made practically.
then we do a swarm of hindenburg sized zeppelin/habitat hybrid and get over it.
>We currently understand Mars better.
true, to make it more habitable I suggest sending a 100 megatons nuke to deimos and make the explosion push deimos torwards phobos and make the 2 replicate the dinosaur extinction event on mars to increase the pressure a 10%
>The Vega balloons lasted for >48 hours in Venus' atmosphere.
>Their batteries only lasted 48 hours and they appeared to be doing just fine when they ran down.
>The Venera probes also took about an hour to fall.
how hard it is to build a teflon coated mini-zeppelin that will work as a weather balloon on venus? it'll remain in the habitable zone of venus(50km to 55km above the surface) and analyze in depth the whole place for months, maybe even bring down a seismometer at maxwell montes so that we analyze properly the only place where we can build shit.

>>10987197
>> hindenburg sized zeppelin
will probably get destroyed in thunderstorm level turbulence. A number of airships have been destroyed by storms:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Macon_(ZRS-5)#Crash
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Shenandoah_(ZR-1)#Crash_of_the_Shenandoah
Second, our payload to structure ratio is lower with airships. This means it's more expensive to make more livable space.
>>mini-zeppelin
there's the VAMP concept. The difficulty is that it needs a relay satellite which makes things much more expensive than sending a lander. Other zeppelin concepts will likely also require a relay satellite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Atmospheric_Maneuverable_Platform
>>maybe even bring down a seismometer at maxwell montes
fat fucking chance. The temperatures at Maxwell Montes are still pretty goddamn high at 380 C. Teflon's probably not stable at this temperature and so are many plastics. Silicon electronics don't work at these temperatures either. There's also no benefit to having said seismometer emplaced by an zeppelin and it decreases the capabilities of said zeppelin. Not to mention Maxwell Montes appears to be pretty rough, making it difficult to place said seismometer. Said seismometer might not provide any useful data at all because the wind and blown pebbles might make too much noise.
>>the only place where we can build shi
it's still 380 C anon and the terrain's pretty rough.

>>10982258
nothing you said is true. venus is smaller. has a acid based atmosphere it would be more costly just based on protective plating for all the god damn stuff. iridium plated everything if more costly than no iridium plating.

the only thing that going to venus has is turning the surface of the planet into a wet cell battery. that is a achievement and low hanging fruit but EVERYTHING ELSE is more of a chore. just to say humanity made a planet a battery sure send some people to go die on venus. other than that its not even remotely useful as a colony location

>>10987355
okay, but if it remains at 50km to 55km above venus, the mini-zeppelin will be fine.
the seismometer just needs to imitate peltier to work it out but that would violate the thermodynamic laws so we just need something similar to venera so that it can survive for long enough to take information torwards the mini zeppelin and the mini zeppelin transmit it to a satelite and that satelite transmit the information to earth, so we will make something that its unlike anything the mini zeppelin is.
it won't be hard, I know we can mantain a probe flying on venus for months if it is a teflon coated mini-zeppelin at the "habitable" part of venus if it navigates through its winds, it'll circle the globe in 54hrs, if we have a way to accelerate then 35hrs tops.

>>10982258
venus looks like a fucking BALL of PISS. The sky looks even more like piss, the years would be shorter, the atmosphere is ridiculously dense, the "Air" is carbon dioxide (meaning you would possibly need trees/diatoms to make sustainable oxygen), the clouds are made of SULFERIC ACID, and the surface temperature is normally REALLY FUCKING HOT (864 degrees fahrenheit, so it can melt some materials).

>>10987469
>>imitate peltier to work
I have no fucking clue what you are talking about
>>so we just need something similar to venera
the Venera probes had seismometers and they turned out to be useless for actual seismometry because of the wind and perhaps even pebbles getting blown around by the wind. A Venus seismometer needs to operate for months or longer to get any useful geological data. Seismometry data for an hour or so has marginal benefits at this point.
>> take information torwards the mini zeppelin and the mini zeppelin transmit it to a satelite and that satelite transmit the information to earth
absolutely rube goldbergian. If you have a relay satellite then there's little need for the zeppelin.
>>won't be hard
everything in space is hard anon, but what it comes down to is cost. It's hard to do the zeppelin mission cause it requires an expensive relay satellite. There's also the issue of how you navigate a zeppelin on Venus. You need to prevent the zeppelin from drifting into the polar vortex, but because Venus has no magnetic field it's hard to tell which direction your zeppelin is facing.
>>I know we can mantain a probe flying on venus for months
then prove it faggot.
>>54hrs, if we have a way to accelerate then 35hrs tops.
you pulled those numbers out of your ass didn't you?
>>10987364
>> for all the god damn stuff.
only the stuff that's outside
>>iridium
teflon works.
>>is turning the surface of the planet into a wet cell battery.
what in the absolute fuck are you talking about?

>>10987486
>fucking BALL of PISS
at the surface, but not higher up in the atmosphere. The sky might look something like pic related. I was able to find some venusian spectral data with altitude and it doesn't seem to change much from orbit to 55km.
>> atmosphere is ridiculously dense
meaning we can potentially float big fucking colonies.
>>"Air" is carbon dioxide
Mars has an atmosphere of carbon dioxide that has a pressure of a couple of pascals, meaning any trees or diatoms you put there would become desiccated and freeze. On Venus you at least have the chance of keeping them alive at around 55 km. Just put em' in a plastic baggie that semipermeable so as to allow CO2 through, but not sulfuric acid.
>>REALLY FUCKING HOT
then don't colonize the surface. Colonize the area around 55 km where's only like 29 C and pressure's close to what you'd find on earth.

>>10982258
So how do you get water?

>>10988220
There are still ice at the poles.

>>10988233
there isn't ice at the poles of venus.

>>10982262

As compared to staying on the same planet forever guaranteeing our extinction?

>>10982278
Again please, except this time in metric.

>>10988243
>guaranteeing
How long do we have before we have to invent stellar engineering?

>>10988398
>How long do we have before we have to invent stellar engineering?
200 years.
if we are lucky, mars will open the chance to do so in our lifetimes.

>>10988414
Well since mars is fuck all inhospitable we might as well start on the moon since you get there much faster. Emergencies there won't necessarily lead to a total party wipe

>>10988888
Nice quints but there's little to do on the moon.
No atmosphere, no decent gravity, only rocks.

>>10988930

The lack of atmosphere and low gravity is actually a benefit, if a base/factory there is used as a stepping stone.

Space industry/mining will import resources.

>>10988930
you could have a shipyard there, low gravity makes it easier to launch although I suppose space also has that benefit

>>10982258
Even if you land on Venus or in it's atmosphere, you are never getting out. Venus is like Earth, it needs a huge two stage vehicle to get to orbit.

Mars on the other hand is an actual destination instead of a prison.

>>10982258
Higher gravity, harder to leave, plus it's down the well from Earth so you're also fighting the Sun if you want to get back to Earf from there. More fighting gravity means you need bigger and more expensive ships, so more manufacturing capability to make the colony viable, more fuel production, and you don't have easy access to ice unlike on Mars. Your colonies are also in a very tenuous position, as while the most powerful storms on Mars can only generate the equivalent of a stiff breeze on Earth thanks to it's highly rarefied atmosphere, storms on Venus in the habitable layer will be at least as violent as on Earth and probably much worse considering that there's so much more air to move around and so much more solar energy to lend storms power.

>>10988888
stellar engineering will happen in our lifetime because phobos the moon of mars and the closest one is actually rich in minerals, with a big metallic core.
that moon will literally be the forst asteroid we will harvest and proceed to give us the need to transport the material torwards mars or earth.
the benefits and riches from phobos will give rise to stellar engineering out of need.

would cryptocurrencies make possible the economy of venus?

>>10989604
>>stellar engineering will happen in our lifetime because phobos the moon of mars and the closest one is actually rich in minerals, with a big metallic core.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Pretty much all we can say about composition is that it's probably carbon rich. We can DEFINITIVELY rule out there being a big metallic core because Phobos' density is too low.

>>10989705
>We can DEFINITIVELY rule out there being a big metallic core because Phobos' density is too low.
i haven't ruled it out yet.

>>10989748

>my uninformed hypothesis affects objective reality

>>10983869
>wind turbines
>on balloons

>>10983984
Are you mad? Got mad papers, have you?

>>10985721
Brainlet here -- what would be the pressure under "several miles" of water on Europa?

>>10988236
I guess technically the solid state of any material is "ice," right? So there is rock ice at the poles of Venus.

>Checkmate, atheists.

>>10988971
>I suppose space also has that benefit
Space lacks regolith for handy insulation/shielding.

>>10989611
Yes.

>>10991245
And yet the question hasn't been answered on how you're going to get water on Venus.

>thin unstable crust
>rampant volcanism
>battery acid atmosphere many times the pressure of earth.
>it's fucking hot enough to melt lead
>days are several hundred earth days long.
>same gravity well as earth to get out of.
>farther away from the Asteroid Belt and Gas Giants

What if we turned the planet inside out?

>>10991508

Checkmate atheists

>>10991499
if people are unwilling to advance sky cities on earth, then maybe giving them a reason on venus would do the trick.
out of necessity we can pull of miracles.
we remain at 52km above the surface where there is a bearable temperature and earth like conditions minus air to breath and acid clouds we can actually recycle.
I bet with enough experimentation, venus can become quite the fun lab to test out really fun projects.
why not? a teflon zeppelin and you can survive there a few days, a hindenburg sized zeppelin gives 2 people a chance to survive there for months and 55km you can launch a rocket from the zeppelin to space.
the acid on the clouds may be also used to forge polymers.

>>10992598
so how do you get sufficient amounts of water? The concentrations of water and sulfuric acid(another source of hydrogen) in Venus' atmosphere are in the tens of parts per million. An order of magnitude less concentrated than CO2 is in earth's atmosphere

>>10992621
>so how do you get sufficient amounts of water?
we could bring from earth and recycle throughly alongside collecting the water from venus.
its not like someone should take permanent residence there, just 2 months should be okay.
if humans wanted to take residence there, we will need a damn swarm of hindenburg sized zeppelin and though of everything to be self-sustaining, from aquaponics to medical facilities.
maybe even a damn flying aquarium and certain frogs so people there can have a proper diet.
alongside a form of cryptocurrencies to hold a proper economy, also we need to import goods from here like plastics or use the upper part of the atmosphere to harvest deuterium and other stuff.
maybe over generation people will come with something, because only the /fit/test would survive there and any mistake would cost them dearly if not their lives.
dunno why but I totally believe we can do it if we put our minds to it, the same with mars but venusian/cytherean will be far better off in terms of health.

>>10992650
but still, I personally believe we should have a swarm of flying probes there.
mini-zeppelin like drones that would explore the whole world and map it properly.
also analyze the composition of that world and its weather on its totality, some of them lowkey transmit a livestream so that people can see the planet.
who knows maybe those probes will find what the fuck hitted the venera 11.

>>10982258
Are we sure it doesn’t rain sulfuric acid in that “habitable” cloud layer?

>but the the sky and cloud cities aren't out of the realm of possibility

Yes, they literally are. It's not even something that has happened on earth yet, how exactly are we supposed to build them on a whole different planet?
The conditions on venus are literally hell, just like you said. Too bored to look it up but iirc the atmosphere is full of methane and very little oxygen. Also, no magnetic field, so say hello to skin cancer. Insanely high temperatures in the hundreds of degrees C make it impossible for anything to live there. How anyone can think Venus is a viable candidate for colonization is beyond me.

>>10993387
>Too bored to look it up but iirc the atmosphere is full of methane and very little oxygen.
dumbass.
>Also, no magnetic field, so say hello to skin cancer.
the atmosphere is so thick that it protect you from solar radiation.

>>10993387
okay Mr. CIA agent, you just don't want us finding the lizard people base already there

>>10988941
Nice futurama ideas, but let's not forget that the moon has no erosion. So the "dust" you see is actually very sharp and sticks to shit.

>>10992650
>>alongside collecting the water from venus.
Answer the question, how do you collect sufficient amounts of water on Venus? If you can't collect sufficient amounts of water on Venus, then colonization of Venus is basically impossible
>>bring it from Earth
that's not very practical in the long run.
>>plastics
can't make them without hydrogen
>>deuterium
how do you harvest it?
>>10992658
>> map it properly.
Magellan already did that.

>>10994203
>how do you collect sufficient amounts of water on Venus? If you can't collect sufficient amounts of water on Venus, then colonization of Venus is basically impossible
dunno about how, to be honest its probably impossible to colonize there BUT we don't know that for sure.
the only way I know, simply use expensive technology to get air from the abundant CO2 and then get oxygen from it, then we get hydrogen from the upper atmosphere and make water with it alongside recycling said water.
a complex and currently near impossible task with current technology.
unless we literally install water plants on space, that collect the hydrogen from space and send it down to the colonies, the same thing that happens with astronauts for them to get water.
so a feasible method is through reusable rockets that constantly go up and down to collect water from space and back, the rocket landing in a special plataform sustained through special zeppelins.
the other is collecting water from the upper atmosphere and harvest the deuterium found in it and make rocket fuel with it.

so short answer with current technology is impossible to colonize venus and sustain it since we don't have the methods of getting enough water from a growing population.
it is possible to visit and remain on venus through long periods of time though.
quite sad isn't it, but a man can dream and I bet we will have water plants in the near future, if so then we may be capable of colonizing hell afterall.

>>10994788
>>BUT we don't know that for sure.
no hydrogen, no water, no propellant for return trips, no plastics, no colonization.
>then we get hydrogen from the upper atmosphere and make water
~10-30 mg/m^3 H2SO4 in the form of liquid droplets, good fucking luck. Assuming you could extract all of these with 100% efficiency you need the mass flow rate of several goddamn jet engines at full thrust to collect 500 tons of H2SO4, in a year. Spacex starship needs 500 tons of water to go home from mars, and we need more to go home from Venus. And the amount water you can get from H2SO4 is going to be less, meaning we need a higher mass flow rate.... Still though, moving that much air's gonna take something like megawatts of power.
>>water plants on space, that collect the hydrogen from space
are you fucking delusional? You want to collect hydrogen from the vacuum of space at atoms per cubic meter concentrations? That's flat out dumb.

>>10983033
wew that's a strong cable

>>10982258
>I know the Venusian surface is literally like hell, but the the sky and cloud cities aren't out of the realm of possibility
What would be the point of just floating on a planet? You need access to the minerals from the surface to expand your colony, which is easier to do on Mars.

>>10996060
we start with maxwell montes.

>>10996168
BAKA. It's still hot AF senpai. DESU we should really send a long term surface probe so we could figure out the sulfur cycle. Because maybe the sulfur cycle will result in a bunch of cool stuff being accessible in the lower atmosphere. Like metal chlorides and shit.

Honestly the moon would be better than either. It's 100x closer and the only difference with Mars is the gravity.

>>10996551
>long term surface probe

That's just not possible. The surface temps melt lead anon. You can only insulate the delecate electronics in a probe for so long.

>>10996042
Not really

>>10996563
>It's 100x closer and the only difference with Mars is the gravity.

And you forgot about lack of volatiles.

>>10993462
kys

>>10996733
you first.

>>10996576
the thing with maxwell montes is the fact that is 11km above the surface.
a significant drop in pressure and less hot but withstandable by current technology.
at that specific side of venus, you can leave a probe.

>>10996576
Then don't use delicate electronics. Use Silicon Carbide electronics which can function on the Venusian surface.
>>10997141
>>withstandable with current technology
It's still too hot(380°C) for traditional silicon electronics(200°C max, lower necessary for long term operation) to function which is the biggest hurdle to sending a surface probe.
>>inb4 cooling
cooling requires plutonium and NASA's running low on that.

>>10982258
There is sulfuric acid in the upper atmosphere. Any blimp city/colony would be destroyed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI-old7YI4I

>>10997487
Just coat them in teflon.

>>10997735
It's just that easy ;^)

>>10997757
it may seem like a joke but it is really that easy.

>>10997757
>>10998102
Except if you want teflon for a Venusian colony you have to mine hydrogen flouride from the atmosphere. HF has a concentration of 1-5 ppb in Venus' atmosphere. Meaning that you have to move a lot of atmosphere to get it. At least the boiling point of HF is near room temperature, so there's that.

we might be able to mine Venus atmosphere FOR FREE. From 50-60 km, temperature increases about 10 K as we descend one kilometer. So we have a pretty good thermal gradient. There are practical power plants on earth that generate power with a 20 K with ocean thermoelectric conversion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion
It's not much of a temperature difference, but it's the fucking ocean, for all intents and purposes, you'll never run out of temperature difference. Same with Venus. So we float our colony up high at like 57-60 km and we drop down a big plastic tube 2-5 km. Maybe insulate it, either with a layer of air or something fancy. We put a big fan at the bottom an suck up air through it, preferably clouds too for that sweet, sweet hydrogen containing sulfuric acid. We then use the temperature difference between ambient and the hot air we sucked up to run generators to power the fan at the bottom. Well thing is because we're cooling all that hot air down, stuff will condense out of it like sulfuric acid, water, even HF if we're located high enough in the atmosphere. And we can just collect the stuff that condenses out. Still need to do the calculations to see if it can really power itself.

>>10992598
Where is the necessity in going to Venus at all

>>10997141
>maxwell montes is the fact that is 11km above the surface
>part of the surface is 11 km above itself
did you just make an infinitely tall mountain anon

>>10998102
Try coating anything that corrodes in anything that doesn't and you'll see why there's a problem. Hint, any tiny chip or scratch in your coating at any one point will eventually allow corrosion to attack the ENTIRE structure, but you won't be able to tell because you covered it in something that doesn't corrode.

>>10998440
Nice perpetual motion machine. It doesn't work. The air you lift up expands because of the pressure drop and becomes the same temperature as the surrounding air because PV=NRT
It only works with the ocean because the water and the atmosphere are very different densities and the gradient, while shallow, can be very steep (water can be 20 degrees warmer than air just meters above), also in that case you are effectively just putting a heat engine in between the ocean and the air, taking advantage of heat flow that is already happening.

>>10998489
well the temperature difference is still there. Perhaps we can pump cold water down to a heat engine that provides power to suck up more hot atmosphere and circulate water.

>>10982258
>>10982262
>>10982278
>>10982447
>>10982429
>>10982784
>>10983033
>>10983984
>>10984941
>>10984944
>>10987197
>>10985721
>>10987364
>>10987469
>>10987573
>>10988975
>>10989146
>>10991245
>>10991263
>>10998489
>>10998475
>>10998574
get the fuck in here bros i just invented cryosleep >>10998796

>>10998467
to experiment and test, also extract materials from the atmosphere.
also as a economic spacegoat, HAHA GET IT?

>>10998475
that is why we put sensors anon.
like a nervous system.

>>10998169
the teflon will be imported from earth, the harvesting is late stage colonization.
also teflon will be used on the probes at first.

>>10999156
ok, well if that's the case you can't colonize Venus. /thread.

>>10999153
>to experiment and test
Experiment and test what, exactly? Technology that lets us live on Venus? Seems like a circular argument. If you mean the technology needed to get TO Venus, eg the space habs, then why even pick Venus as a destination when you can pick Moon or Mars and learn the same things except in a much easier environment with lower delta V requirements?

>>10999156
>this major and vital component to any Venus colony will be imported from Earth until endgame colonization
In that case colony is a non starter.
>>10999359
this

>>10987573
Interesting stuff.