/sci/ - Science & Math

Starting on the moon is the better option, even better is making an underwater colony.

It has all the same challenges that need to be solved, but transport costs would be 100% cheaper.

When we have the tech it's easier but until then Mars is far more safe.

What are the odds of wageslaves being able to go to the moon as tourists within the next 30 years?

>>10930104
>underwater colony
that sounds horribly depressing

>>10930118
Play soma, it's depression-core.

>>10930097
Prove it faggot.
>>10930104
>>Moon colony
there's only one lake's worth of practically extractable water on the whole Moon, you could sustain about 1000 people at best.
>>underwater colony
total and complete meme. If something goes wrong on Earth you're still fucked and there are no advantages to building underwater rather than on the sea's surface.

>>10930126
/thread

>dude just extract trace gases from the atmosphere for your resources

>>10930097
Why would you live in the atmosphere of Venus instead of directly staying in space? There's no water anywhere on Venus. And in the atmosphere is no iron, stones, or anything you could use to extend your colony on your own.

>>10930160
we use the clouds to extract water, I know they are acidic but we can still use them.
there is a lot of carbon in the air, we can use it to expand and create more.

>>10930181
>use carbon in the air for building
Brainlet here, please explain how this works

>>10930126
Humans can't live on Mars even if they terraform it, low gravity will kill us off

>>10930160
>>10930181
>we use the clouds to extract water, I know they are acidic but we can still use them.
Alright...sulphuric acid is created from water vapour.
Sunlight splits carbon dioxide into carbon monoxide and oxygen, am I right?.
The oxygen, sulphur dioxide and water vapour then react to produce sulphuric acid.
So human colonists would be much better off just extracting the water vapour from the atmosphere directly.
Water vapour only makes up about 20 parts per million in Venus’ atmosphere, but it is a very thick atmosphere.
The mass of the atmosphere is about 4.8*10^20 kg.
That works out to about 10^16 kg of water vapour.
That's about 1% the amount of water on Earth.
More than enough to support a colony.
Not bad at all, specially if we can recycle the water.
in fact, venus colonist would be cleaner because they only need to throw the shit to the surface and watch the trash get scorched.

>>10930200
You use huge amounts of energy and time processing large quantities of atmosphere to extract marginal amounts, rather than going outside and sticking a shovel in the ground.

>>10930200
Carbon bricks

>>10930200
the venusian atmosphere is 96.5% CO2 for starters, thats A LOT of carbon.
so much that you could float there with regular air.
so we can actually get all that C02, use solar(which is 4x more potent and effective than on earth) alongside a machine similar to the one on the international space station and divide the oxigen from the carbon, then you go and use the carbon to build shit and as a gift you get free oxigen.

>>10930097
Because it is not. Venus has a huge gravity well comparable to Earth. Once someone is down there, they aint coming back. Mars on the other hand is SSTO back to Earth, and with an actual surface that is not a living hell.

>>10930252
>Venus has a huge gravity well comparable to Earth.

>>10930118
>>10930126
>being this much of a brainlet
Underwater is literally the ideal place for further colonisation. There's food, flora and fauna all around. A hell of a lot easier to set up and maintain than a base in mars as well.

>>10930118

Thats the point.

Its horribly depressing... just like space.

But, if someone loses it, it will be a lot easier to recover them.

>>10930126
>there's only one lake's worth of practically extractable water on the whole Moon

This is why you just drink your piss.

>>10930221

Can we use solar roads for the energy requirements?

>>10930264
How the fuck is underwater depressing, let alone more depressing than space?

>>10930252
thats why we should send weather ballons there first.
rigid teflon coated weather zeppelins.
besides venus is the only place where you can float with air, especially 50km above the venusian surface where the pressure is like earth.
it could bring a technological change on earth make it possible for earth to have flying cities

>>10930272
Yes.
in fact, venus is the ideal place to create a solar plant.
you can literally use the energy at its full capacity while on venus, as long as you remain on its day, which is fucking easy.

>>10930278
weather balloons are on the bottom of deep Venusian gravity well, too, Venus is a trap

>>10930274
lack of sunlight

>>10930252
>a huge gravity well comparable to Earth
what did he mean by this?

>>10930272
Kek'd

>>10930341
a huge gravity well which is comparable to Earth's

>>10930274
lock yourself in a dimly lit room, with 100% humidity for a few months.

tell me how it goes....

>>10930341

>>10930338
>>10930456
>If you live underwater, you gotta literally live IN the water bro. what's that? underwater counterparts of the biomes in mars? nah!
>every part of the ocean is dark like the deepest part of the mariana trench bro

>>10930118
>immune to solar flares, nukes, most asteroid impacts, earth quakes, storms, wars
why would an underwater colony be bad again?

>>10930639
>why would an underwater colony be bad again?

Glow in the Dark CIA Niggers everywhere.

>>10930648
not an argument

>>10930327
...you realize that the atmosphere of venus had the special quality of making you buoyant at higher altitudes?
CO2 is heavier than air.
not only that but since we are using zeppelins and not planes, we can remain on air for a long time, and if it is a sealed weather zeppelin coated with teflon then it will remain up there for YEARS.
do not only take gravity here, but also heat, air composition and other factors.

>>10930639
>>10930658
pressure, funding and architecture.
pressure will be a really hard problem to solve alongside creating a reliable form that can sustain a colony.
then...there is the funding, since its too expensive, no one would bother to put money on a damn submarine colony.
the reason why we don't buy one is because its too fucking expensive and mere faggotry, also time.

>>10930124
Fucking hell that game got me thinking about it for weeks after, it's so fucking bleak in a way that no other game has been able to capture

>>10930682
well at least you know why no one has bothered to make a moon base as well. we will die on this rock because no one wants to waste money

>>10930104
>even better is making an underwater colony.
>It has all the same challenges

Space colony must be built to withstand anywhere from 1-0 atmosphere pressure differential. Building under the sea comes with WAY more challenging problems.

>>10930261
>Underwater is literally the ideal place for further colonisation. There's food, flora and fauna all around.

But you need an underwater colony to utilize exactly zero of that.

>>10930639
>why would an underwater colony be bad again?
Because it gains you nothing at great expense.

Protip: Boats exist.

>>10930731
>immune to solar flares, nukes, most asteroid impacts, earth quakes, storms, wars
it gains the same exact things a moonbase does for a fraction of the amount of green papers.
>but we can launch rockets from the moon base!!!!1
you can do that from earth orbit even easier without a base

>>10930097
>this kills the colonist

>>10930261
>A hell of a lot easier to set up and maintain than a base in mars as well.
Actually....it'd be far far more difficult. Mars is less than 1ATM difference from the inside pressure. An underwater colony would have a shit load more pressure difference. That fact alone causes costs and logistics to skyrocket past even something simple like the ISS. Note I said "colony" not just a base in 10 feet of water.

>>10930658

Its a Meme, you dip.

>>10930658

>not an argument

Weird....I see a Premise and a Conclusion....

>>10930760
as if the population of a moon/mars base wouldn't be 99% glow niggers to be sure the people don't do a total recall

>>10930201
bUt ReDdIT MEmE RiCh gUY SaYS wE cAn IF We nUkE mArS. Goddammit OP, that's barely an argument and you're a fucking faggot. So most of the case for Venus is outlined by Landis here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20030022668.pdf
The advantages are that at around 55 km temperature and pressure are Earth like. Oh and you've got fucking close to Earth gravity(8.87 m/s^2) and protection from cosmic rays and solar flare radiation. bUt tHe sUrFaCe iS 2 HoT! Which is why you build colonies in the air at 55 km high, read Landis' paper faggot. So you see Venus' atmosphere is CO2, which is heavier than breathable air, so breathable air's a lifting gas! So kilometer sized balloons full of regular air can lift pretty much the mass of a small city. Oh and if you really want you can use hydrogen, because that shit don't burn in a CO2 atmosphere. Solar power available at this altitude is >= that available at Earth's surface. Another big advantage is that carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, sulfur, hydrogen, and even phosphorous are all extractable from the atmosphere. That's all the elements we need for life! And yes, there is fucking phosphorous in the atmosphere, according to the Venera probes, there's as much phosphorous as there is sulfur(pic related) at these altitudes! Yes, there might be some issues extracting the hydrogen, sulfur, and phosphorous because these aren't a major constituents of the atmosphere. But there might be processes on venus which we can use to trivially extract them. It is possible the Vega balloons might have seen rain, meaning we could get these elements just by stretching a big tarp out.

>>10930713
>we will die on this rock because no one wants to waste money
its not a waste, its spending.
they don't want to spend money on things that matter out of fear of change.

>>10930456
It's not going well.

>>10930809
hopefully asteroids accept payment to divert their course then
>global warming omg we are allllllllllllllll dead in 17 months!!!!
yeah dont try and prepare for that though, we should all just die together

>>10930787
continued:
One big advantage of extracting stuff from the atmosphere is that we can test the systems work on Earth and be pretty goddamn sure they'll work on Venus. We can do this because we understand fluid dynamics pretty goddamn well. We don't understand the dynamics of granular materials all that well, meaning crap that we test on Earth for digging shit out of the ground won't necessarily work on Mars. Hell, the same stuff won't necessarily work at different places here on Earth or even in the same place on Earth with different humidity. Systems that handle granular materials are not very reliable and often operate at only 63% of design capacity(https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050198938.pdf).). Dealing with issues from granular material processing system is probably going to be a leading cause of death among Mars colonists. Having to go out in an EVA suit to unjam a bin of regolith or go at some piece of equipment with a jackhammer is going to cause deaths.
Disadvantages: The weather might make large floating colonies impractical. We do know that the Vega balloons did get shaken around a bit. More characterization of the atmosphere is needed. At some point you may need to access resources on the surface which might be difficult.
>>10930159
So do you know how SpaceX wants to make propellant to go home from Mars? They want to do it primarily by processing the 610 pascal atmosphere. Oh and they'll get the hydrogen by taking it with them cause it ain't worth it to dig it out of the ground initially. How's that for extracting trace gases for resources?

>>10930820
>yeah dont try and prepare for that though, we should all just die together
we will even if we prepare...unless we conquested another planet.

>>10930769
It will be all Glow Niggers to prevent the biggest of truths from ever being known.

In 1884, meridian time personnel met

in Washington to change Earth time.

First words said was that only 1 day

could be used on Earth to not change

the 1 day marshmallow. So they applied the 1

day and ignored the other 3 days.

The marshmallow time was wrong then and it

proved wrong today. This a major lie

has so much boring feed from it's wrong.

>>10930747
Couldnt humans just be genetically modified to survive lower gravity?

No man on Earth has no belly-button,

it proves every believer on Earth a liar.
Children will be blessed for

Kissing Of Educated Adults

Who Ignore 4 Simultaneous

 Days Same Earth Rotation.

Practicing Boring ONEness -

Upon Earth Of Quadrants.

 Boring Adult Crime VS Youth.

 Supports Lie Of Integration.

 1 Educated Are Most Dumb.

 Not 1 Human Except Dead 1.

 Man Is Paired, 2 Half 4 Self.

 1 of God Is Only 1/4 Of God.                        Â

  Marshmallow A Lie & Word Is Lies.

  Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s.

 God Is Born Of A Mother –

  She Left Belly B. Signature.

Every Priest Has Ma Sign

 But Lies To Honor Unicorns.

Belly B. Proves 4 Corners.

Your dirty lying teachers

use only the midnight to

midnight 1 day (ignoring

3 other days) Time to not

foul (already wrong) marshmallow

time. Lie that corrupts earth

you educated brilliant fools.

Belly-Button Logic Works.
When  Do Teenagers Die?

Adults Eat Teenagers Alive,

No Record Of Their Death.

Father Son Image, Not Gods.

 Every Man Born Of Woman.
Belly-Button Is the Signature

Of Your Personal Creator -

I Believe Her Name Mama.
Pastor Told His Flock That

God Created All Of Them -

Truth Was That They All had

Mama Made Belly Buttons,

Church Was Full Of Liars.

>>10930857
Otis Eugene is that you?

>>10930097
Titan is the best option, there's plenty of fuel there to harvest energy, the most important thing to sustain life.

Earth Has 4 Days In Same 24Â Â Â Hrs., 1 Day God Was Wrong.Â

Einstein Was ONEist Brain.

Try My Belly-Button Logic.

No God Knows About 4 Days,    It Is Boring To  Ignore 4 Days,

Does Your Teacher Know ?
Fraudulent ONEness of religious

academia has retarded your opposite

rationale brain to a half brain slave.

YOU IGNORE 3 OF 4 DAYS -

FORCE 4 DAYS ON EARTH,

THEY ALREADY EXIST.

4 HORSEMEN HAVE 4 DAYS

IN ONLY 1 EARTH ROTATION.

4 ANGLES STOOD ON 4 CORNERS.

4 CORNERS ROTATE TO 16 CORNERS

WHICH EQUAL TO 4 CORNER DAYS.

TEACHERS ARE EVIL LIARS - THE

ONEness OF GOD IS STILLness DEATH.

>>10930859
YOU WERE ONEness RETARD ON THE
EARTH OPPOSITES ALL YOUR LIFE.
LOVE OF GOD IS HATE OF CHILDREN.
SUPPORT TIMECUBE OR BE CURSED.

>>10930261
and you can get all that food on the surface. There's no benefit to going underwater.
>>10930639
>>solar flares
nope. Solar flares cause damage by changing Earth's magnetic field. An underwater colony would still be damaged by this. In fact, there's a good chance your underwater colony could get PHYSICALLY DAMAGED by solar flares. Solar flare geomagnetically induced currents could cause disrupt the corrosion control system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetically_induced_current#GIC_hazard_in_pipelines
Solar flares are a fucking meme disaster though and can only damage things with conductors on the order of kilometers long.
>>nukes
fuck no. Nuking an underwater colony would be far more effective than nuking a city on land because the explosion's energy transmits better underwater.
>>most asteroid impacts
Much of Earth's surface is water and an explosion's energy transmits much better through water. And if we had a really big asteroid impact, all that flora and fauna that you're relying on won't necessarily survive because the ecosystem collapses
>>storms
again, if you have something like ecosystem collapse, you'd still be fucked.
>>wars
and why wouldn't your underwater colony not get attacked in a war? I'll be that just a dozen depth charges could completely destroy an underwater colony. There are probably all sorts of other events that could kill an underwater colony too. And in the event of big civilization ending wars, an underwater colony is likely to collapse too. There is no reason why an underwater colony needs to be made entirely self sufficient.

>>10930820
why would an underwater colony die from global warming?

>>10930885

Nigger Heat and Curry Feces Contamination

>>10930910
is that tard shitting his genitals?

>>10930917

>>10930942
Brother!

>>10930959

>>10930965

>>10930973

>>10930341
I think they meant to write a huge gravity well comparable to Mars.

>>10930878
>energy transmits much better through water

this is patently and blatantly false and I can prove it to you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tbxDgcv74c&t=210s

all your other points are retarded because you're arguing with a retard anyways.

>>10930118
It could be pretty fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puEXCyqkEKA

>>10930754
>That fact alone causes costs and logistics to skyrocket past even something simple like the ISS.

How many space habitats have there been? 2 the ISS and Mir

But there has been loads of submarines. Underwater habitats are far cheaper on this point alone.

>>10931055
the pressure is going to be a big challenge and so will be a underwater city.
even if we had the resources and money, how do we proceed? from where do we start?.
how deep will be this city builded and where the hell is this going to be located?

>>10931038
I knew this was gonna be Sealab 2021

>>10931121
>how do we proceed? from where do we start?.

1. Build a submarine with some special legs
2. put on sea bed.
3. Add additional connecting modules like ISS does.

Wow that was hard.

>>10931135
it's already been done. Nothing much happened with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquarius_Reef_Base

>>10931135
>>10931142
I have an idea, why not use a really small island as a base to build?
we dig really deep and build from there, expanding into a sustainable sea colony.

if we sucessfully colonize venus atmosphere with a swarm of hindenburg sized zeppelins
then should we attempt to build a place where we can stand on maxwell montes?
that place is the highest of venus and its peak is 11km above the surface
not a bad start at all

>>10930747
>citation needed

>>10930840
yes but then they will be a damn sub-species.

>>10930747

>>10930860
Fuel but no oxygen is actually less useful than oxygen but no fuel, retard. At least a human can breathe oxygen. Available fuel is worthless unless you make your own oxygen, which means you are relying on nuclear power anyway (since solar is useless at Saturn and even more useless under Titan's atmospheric haze).

>>10931000
No, retard, 'comparable' means 'can be compared to', Venus has 90% of Earth's gravitational strength, Mars only has 38%. A rocket going from the clouds 50km above Venus back to Earth needs to be about as big as a rocket starting on Earth's surface going to Venus, ei FUCKHUEG. SSTO from Venus' cloud tops is no easier than SSTO from Earth's surface. Therefore you need either a reusable two-stage vehicle to achieve Venus orbit or you need an expendable two-stage rocket. That's just to achieve low orbit, to actually get back to Earth you'd need an entire third stage at least. You're basically looking at shipping an entire Saturn V to Venus, somehow getting it into the upper atmosphere, refilling it there (again, 'somehow', because water is barely a trace gas in the atmosphere so you can't really make hydrogen or hydrocarbons in any significant quantity), and then launching it back to Earth, though the first stage gets destroyed and the second stage is left in Venus orbit.

>>10930747
>completely unsubstantiated
it's a shitpost that's been standing the test of time, though

>>10932515
We are already subspecies. That's what races are. It literally means "subspeices" for laymen.

>>10933348
>memes need to be substantiated

>>10930747
>Humanity has discovered nearly all relevant science that can be used by humanity to advance technologies that will be useful to humanity.

>>10930118
Not depressing as living in a city-sized dirigible floating over depths of Hell that one technician's really bad day could sink it to. At least on Earth the worst usual consequence is a gun battle in a mall, during which the birds just outside continue uninterrupted, and the kids a few blocks over don't even know about until the community puts on the usual candle-light vigil to strut the first-world status of their problems, as fashion demands.

>>10933346
what about sending a weather balloon?
a zeppelin like weather balloon the size of a regular chair?