/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10791873
Pic related

starhopper is overrated and not particularly exciting

elon could literally just tweet a full up raptor test on a stand with flight hardware, but for style points they made the test stand fly

GUYS FIRE AT STARHOPPER COCOA SITE 100k DOLLAROOS IN DAMAGAE

>>10791900
literally a truck caught fire hundreds of feet from starship because of bad wiring

>>10791913
Is Elon still going to launch it into space?

>>10791920
the hopper is on the other side of the continent and is not going to space

>>10791961
No, I mean the truck.

>>10791897
yeah, it's exactly as exciting as a multi-engine raptor test stand would be
only we get to watch a flying trash can zip around

>>10791900
so the food truck caught on fire, so what
>>10791978
what the fuck anon, do you think Elon just looks at random shit lying around and says to himself, "I'm going to launch that bitch into space"

https://spacenews.com/three-rules-for-building-a-megaconstellation/

this is why taco trucks aren't a thing

>>10791897
>>10792003
Be patient

>>10792004
>what the fuck anon, do you think Elon just looks at random shit lying around and says to himself, "I'm going to launch that bitch into space"
Y-yes?

>>10791913
>>10792004

Oh okay. Thought something much worse occurred.

>>10792207
anon, how much money do you think $100,000 is
if your answer isn't "pocket change" then you've thinking on the wrong scales here

https://theaviationist.com/2019/07/08/new-photos-surface-of-secretive-x-37b-space-plane-in-orbit-on-classified-mission/

>670 days

God it's been so long, it felt like just a few months ago.

>>10791873
HOP WHEN
O
P

W
H
E
N

Elon, gib me your cum

>>10792215
always a good time

>>10792213
But if the truck had caught fire in front of SLS...

>>10792213
>if your answer isn't "pocket change" then you've thinking on the wrong scales here
I'm pretty sure SpaceX got to where they are now by doing the opposite of that.

>>10792758
It'll probably be a million initially, but the contractors would use it as an excuse to delay the SLS for more money laun- er... I mean, "development". Which then ultimately made the orginal accident cost a billion or so. But SLS is literally the only way to get into space, so its okay.

>>10792215
>>10792665

What sort of space-based weapons are they installing?

>>10792827
A new McDonald's chain.

>>10792827
nuclear pumped xray lazors

>>10792665
Can the x37 be put on top of a falcon9 ?
Would a passenger version of this not be the perfect reusable shuttle between earth and ISS?

>>10793078
anon, they've already launched it on a F9.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/790586/NASA-rover-captures-mystery-winged-creature-flying-over-Mars-video/amp

What is this?

>>10793101
>dailystar
clickbait, that's called clickbait

>>10793101
for something to use winged flight on mars it would have to have an absolutely enormous wing span.

>>10793115

Not an answer.

>>10793119

Agreed so it's obviously not a flying creature. But what is it?

>>10793101
My guess would be a cosmic ray hitting the camera just as the picture was taken, resulting in a black blob. I'm on my phone right now so I can't do a more detailed look on it, but was the object caught on one of the binocular cameras but not the other? If so then it would strongly imply a camera error (like a cosmic ray).

Plus, since NASA hasn't gone public with this yet further suggests that whatever that object was isn't important, since strong evidence for life on Mars would be a huge publicity boost for NASA.

>>10793078
it's a winged landing vehicle with no abort system, so it's still pretty subpar as a manned vehicle for the same reasons Dreamchaser and Shuttle were

>>10792827
reading between the lines, I think they're testing (either whole or just subcomponents of) a space based nuclear reactor for military satellites

>>10793413
what a retarded post
>with no abort system
it doesn't need one once it built the velocity, it doesn't use toxic propellants (H2O2 + RP-1) so it can glide and actually land at any ordinary airport unlike Shuttle
it only needs an abort thruster early in the flight, and if this thing will ever evolve into a manned vehicle it will obviously be added
>for the same reasons Dreamchaser and Shuttle were
only a retard would compare those two
small spaceplanes specialized for manned LEO missions such as the Spiral, HL-20, Kliper, Dreamchaser etc make actual sense, unlike monstrous jack-of-all-trades contraptions, and they can be made safer and glide smoother than capsules.

>>10793415
Unlikely. There's little point in getting the nuclear reactor back to Earth.

>>10793906
third stage spaceplanes are very good at delivering things very gently from orbit to earth, but they're not as compelling, economically, as second stage spaceplanes like Starship
a properly sized version might be too limited to do much of anything beyond just bring a handful of people up and down, which isn't economically appealing right now.

MAXAR took some pictures of LC-39 with one of their satellites. Here's a pic of 39A.

>>10793993
Aaaaand here's a pic of 39B, featuring the Mobile Launcher.

>>10793993
i'm not even a yank and i think that flag is pure kino in that picture.

>>10793932
Starship isn't a plane though, it's a capsule. It's supposed to re-enter in ballistic mode. Sideways, to minimize the ballistic coefficient and lower the temperature.

>>10794066
it's a big tube with stabilizing surfaces, it's going to have a not-insignificant hypersonic lift/drag ratio

>>10794072
Well in that case you can call Soyuz a plane because at hypersonic velocities even a brick would have a not-insignificant lift (and Soyuz actually uses this lift for the gliding reentry which is much smoother than the ballistic one)

As far as I understand it, Starship is supposed to really be ballistic and not gliding, re-entering at zero AoA (just like Soyuz in ballistic mode, or the SpaceShipOne/SS2).

>>10794108
it'd be 90 AOA, wouldn't it
we could go watch the simulation from the Dear Moon presentation again if you wanted

>>10793078
It's tiny, brah, look at the hazmat suits standing next to it. Maybe you could fit two people lying down in the bay. It's probably pressurized but I doubt they use anything breathable.

>>10793415
If they're testing a nuke it should be possible to tell from the IR emissions and gamma ray astronomers bitching about the radiation. They probably are testing widgets though. Still I don't get the appeal of nuclear propulsion for military satellites.

>>10794110
>it'd be 90 AOA, wouldn't it
I'd say it's 0 degrees relative to which side is supposed to point forward during the reentry (the belly), but you can say it's 90 as well, yeah, it doesn't really matter

>>10794120
x-ray astronomy is pointless in atmosphere, and good luck convincing anyone to spend a millisecond of satellite/balloon/plane x-ray observatory time to spy on a top secret US spaceplane

>>10794120
not nuclear propulsion, nuclear power gen

space based radar basically always wants more power than you can give it. same for airborne radar; eg note the big ass APU that the E-2 Hawkeye has and the C-2 Greyhound doesn't, it's a whole other jet engine just to power the antenna

the Soviets built their first space nuke reactors to power radar says

and it's the kind of experiment where you'd want to run it in space for a while and then bring it down to look at it and see how it's holding up

and they mentioned "heat pipes" on the unclassified side, and opsec legends usually hint slightly at the truth so the engineers don't get too confused

>>10794267
>Massive space based radar

Aka huge glowing target

>>10794132
Gamma ray astronomy not X-ray astronomy. They wouldn't need to point their scopes at the satellite, they'd notice interference when it flew over. The soviet's space nuclear reactors interfered with a balloon borne gamma ray telescope:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17807612/?i=3&from=/17799718/related
>>10794267
>>space based radar
then the astronomers would yell BLOODY MURDER! when it interferes with their scopes. Now that we've got some gamma ray space telescopes up they will be especially pissed. You can't completely shield a space based nuclear reactor so it's pretty bright in the gamma ray range. Plus space reactors can contaminate observations by producing positrons which get trapped in Earth's magnetic field.
>>10794309
there is no stealth in space!

>>10794309
anyone tested higher-than-LEO ASAT yet?

>"but if you're way up there, the inverse square law means you'd need way more power for the antenna"

yes that's the point

>>10794316
>>10794309
You guys know military radar satellites already exist, right?

>>10794323
we're talking about space reactors here. Astronomers would fucking sneak into your house and murder you if you put a reactor in orbit around Earth. As long as it ain't in orbit around earth it's fine. Mostly. Space based radar would orbit the earth, so astronomers would go apeshit if you tried to put up a nuke powered one.

>>10793063
Nice honorverse reference

>>10794316
>there is no stealth in space!
not this dumb meme again
you've read too much rho project

>>10794352
He still has a point. It's really hard to hide something in orbit.

>>10794352
Please explain how it's a meme and your plan for stealth space ships.

>>10794354
there are a lot of ways if you really wanted to, also the meme isn't about earth orbit but the space in general

>>10794362
>>there are a lot of ways
well if there are so many, then perhaps you could name one?

>>10794370
Paint it black with little white dots for stars and no one will know.

>>10794361
>>10794370
being really fucking far away
layered sunshades pointed at the detector
exotic trajectories using astronomical bodies as a cover
low energy transfers with cold thrusters

and yes, before you post some dumb shit, I've read the site of that turbo autist, he's wrong at almost every point. He doesn't even have strict problem definitions, is constantly moving goalposts, and is just pulling armchair numbers out of his ass, as well as CoDE and similar crap

trying to predict the warfare in space is only good for sci-fi, which can be fun but will inevitably look like Silbervogel or a moon cannon

>>10794410
What about black camouflage?

>>10794410
>exotic trajectories using astronomical bodies as a cover
>low energy transfers with cold thrusters
okay calm down hoss we ain't got the roci yet

>>10794362
>there are a lot of ways if you really wanted to, also the meme isn't about earth orbit but the space in general
Well I meant in orbit in general too.

To clarify, by stealth I mean the ability to be around and behind enemy lines with a very small chance of the enemy knowing that you're even there in most conditions. That kind of stealth is very hard to do in space, because there a ship needs radiators to deal with waste heat which are shining beacons in the IR. Sure there are ways of dealing with this (which I won't go into detail lest this post turns into an essay, but if you want to discuss this further then feel free to tell), but (I suspect that) those methods would be very situational and may not be effective in the grand scheme (think less like the submarines in the Cold War and more like the U-Boats in WW1).

However, that whole "there's no stealth in space" meme ignores that there can be "softer" varieties of stealth. The kind where the enemy knows that you're there, but can't figure out ; where you are, what you are, and/or what kind of threat you are. Soft stealth is much easier to achieve and can be done even with today's technology. It can be used to challenge enemy intelligence, or to gain the upper-hand tactically in ship-to-ship combat.

While it's not hard sci-fi, my favorite example of this are the Minbari warships from Babylon V that jam all enemy sensors in the battlefield. Their enemies know that the Minbari are there, but don't know where they are and this can't mount an effective attack.

>>10794361
>Please explain how it's a meme
1. It assumes a lot of unknowns while handwaving the details. (like "well if we have nuclear powered spaceships then we also have magical detector networks" etc)
2. People who say "there's no stealth in space" usually don't understand that stealth isn't a binary option to make something invisible.

Thing is, if you apply the same reasoning to the existing aircraft stealth technology, you could say there's no stealth in air either because you cannot make a plane which is invisible to all wavelengths, optical/LWIR detection (every modern fighter has this) etc. But it's being used and developed despite this obvious fact. Because 1. aircraft stealth isn't about rendering the plane completely invisible but mostly about minimizing the reliable locking range 2. the tech is probably less than a 10% of the actual warfare, while the rest is planning, execution, logistics, economics etc. Discussing stealth technology (or any military technology for that matter) without actual context is kind of pointless, it will always be science fiction.

>supernova torpedoes

stealth satellites have existed before
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misty_(satellite)

>>10794451
pic from Babylon 5

orange rocket chad

>>10794732
The Virgin Rocket vs. The Chad Space Plane

>>10794732
>cheap manufacturing methods on sls
kek

>>10794732
disappointed the taco truck isn't included

>>10794732
To be fair though, the parts about the BFR are accurate. You're clearly insane if you think fucking rockets should replace airplanes

>>10794774
I think they should. Ever fly across the Atlantic? Shit sucks.
For a while planes were like ultra dangerous...

>>10794778
Supersonic airliners

>>10794779
even more of a meme than exo-atmospheric trajectories

>>10794774
>more low effort FUD
explain in detail why you insist on this being the case or fuck off

>>10794112
that's actually a plot point in Neal Stephenson's Seveneves. POTUS and one other person smuggle themselves up to the ISS on a modified X37 in the midst of runaway kessler syndrome

>>10794787
>acting like having routine transcontinental rocket flights in between dense and highly populated areas needs any explanation for being a bad idea

10794794
>no I wont explain my shitposts, I'm just going to sit and spread FUD 24/7

>>10794800
Bold of you to assume I'm whoever the hell you're talking about.
Also, you quote people with double carrots.

He gets butthurt when you call him out and don't give him any (you)s, always tries to get you to give him that (you) lmao. What a sad life.

>>10794732
Both are rockets to nowhere, I don't actually see any difference

I'm looking at the American Antarctica program and I noticed that only a small number of the people there are actually researchers. Most of the people there are personnel that "provide support for operations, logistics, information technology, construction, and maintenance."

It makes me think that NASA (or some other government agency?) establishing a base on Mars via SpaceX might be critical to the development of a colony. SpaceX might have a small base there for fuel production, but NASA could send dozens of astronaut/researchers, which could then require a huge number of support personnel to back them (just like the Antarctica program). This could provide enough people to keep the Starships profitable enough to keep going to Mars, while at the same time providing a base (like the ISS) where commercial activities, tourists, and colonists could start out at.

The critical part is that NASA doesn't get much funding...so even if this is a good way to go about starting a real colony, NASA might not have enough money to do support alot of astronauts/researchers. The best bet might be to have NASA being only one of multiple government agencies backing a Mars program like the Antarctica program. That way there will be multiple sources of funding to secure it.

>>10794969
If Starlink works out then SpaceXs budget will be greater than the scraps the government tosses NASA and they can do their own thing without being glued to corrupt congressmen and MIC contractors. Sending people to Mars could bring them profits by themselves depending on the refurbishment costs on BFR and there are lots of people with half a mil+ in assets who are champing at the fucking bit to gtfo this shithole planet. Given how far the boring company will have come in 5-9 years and the ready availability of things such as solar film, electrolysis machines, hydroponic equipment, water filters, etc... already available on the commercial market, NASA is going to be sidelined fucking hard imo. Given that Starlink already has been over funded, there really is little to stop it.

>>10794856
Again. I've literally replied to you once (not including this). Are you so self-important you're assuming there's one single guy out to get you?

>>10795006
You're right about that. So if SpaceX ends up with tons of money, how will they incentivize people to go to Mars? Do you think that they will be willing to fund a whole base by themselves if they have to (including all the people needed to run it)? Based on past history, company towns sound scary, but it may be the best option.

>Hurr lol I'm not one guy even though my posts have identical writing styles
>Singles me out as a samefag even though it's two seperate dudes telling you to fuck off

Wew lad.

>>10795018
it's to be expected at this point, he's been around since the first couple threads from late 2018

>>10795016
Probably the initial settlement will be a company town yes, SpaceX will front a boring machine for habitat space and ship the initial equipment to run it. I would imagine the initial group of people will be a combination of a few scientistsbut mostly hands on types to put shit together and fix it if it is wrong. If they can prove their first settlement to be viable then my guess is a full on expansion with loads of private individuals dumping and coordinating funds to make their own settlements.

There is no incentive needed to get people to Mars, there are so many people who want the next frontier that they will just up and sell all their assets.

>>10794725
That's big anal plug.

>>10795023
>SpaceX will front a boring machine for habitat space and ship the initial equipment to run it.
That reminds me. I read that the first British expedition to Antarctica built a large building on land but they ended up using it as storage while opting to stay on the ship instead (because it was warmer than the building). I also read that the first two permanent stations built by the Americans both suffered severe damage after awhile and had to be abandoned as well (crushed by ice, pic related), so it's not just the British that got unlucky. It might be best for the first few missions to have Starships designed as backup permanent habitats just in case the habitats they bring aren't good enough (or become damaged / unusable for some reason).

>>10795058
Yeah Starships could conceivably be used as habitats since they will have all the life support equipment built in as well as the shitloads of equipment from the cargo ships landing before hand which should be able to be set up and used regardless, although the radiation for the crew will suck. Fortunately Mars should be a lot more forgiving than Antarctica since there is no real weather to speak of, ice falls and such are a non issue and tunneled habitats don't really have any technical issues that we can't solve imo. I remember reading a thread on NSF about how the most complicated and heavy part, being the airlock system could be replaced with a U bend tunnel containing lots of liquid water and a layer of oil on the Mars atmosphere end which floats on top and won't sublimate at Mars pressure and temp, you could just drive your vehicle or walk your suit through the U bend and up into the habitat. Worst case if there is something wrong (which seems fairly unlikely given that most of this stuff will be tested exhaustively here on Earth or on the moon) it should only require a few tonnes of remedial components which could be put on a massively expedited burn to Mars using solid boosters launched inside a starship upper stage for shitloads of dv and launched whenever regardless of planetary alignment.

>>10794779
If you go higher you can decrease drag, which vastly decreases fuel spent for a given speed. If you keep going higher and faster, we call it "a rocket".

>>10795087
even with nearly unlimited dv there doesn't exist fast interplanetary transfer trajectories outside of the windows

>>10795126
I thought Hohhman transfers were simply the best fuel/time trajectories?

>>10794794
Like an airplane?

>george HWs moonbase never happened
>a modernized saturn never happened
>the buran never happened
man, fuck this gay ass timeline.

how good could spaceflight be if it wasnt bogged down by political autism?

>>10795166
They are nearly dV optimal.

>>10795126
Huh, with "nearly unlimited dV" you can just accelerate half the way to the target and brake the another half, that would be pretty fucking fast. Being realistic, faster trajectories for existing thrusters do exist, they lie a bit outside the locally optimal solution. That requires more dV and a much larger rocket, but there are reasonable combinations cutting the travel time by half or so.

>>10795178
thank god the buran never happened, it shouldn't have existed at all
they should have continued their native Spiral and TKS programs

>>10795193
brachistochrone trajectories aren't "nearly unlimited dV" they're pretty much the definition of "infinte dV"
but significantly outside the transfer window you're better off just waiting a year for the window to come around again than you are trying some stupid double-ellipse transfer

>>10795200
Isn't it two years for Mars? Or is there a middling trajectory you can use?

>>10795087
>U bend tunnel as an airlock
wait what, is there a drawing of this?

>>10795229
There is on the NSF thread, I can't be bothered to look for it but I think it's one of the Martian habitat threads. Imagine you have your tunnel, it then drops into a U bend filled with hundreds-thousands of tonnes of liquid water, it then comes up into a entrance shielded from sunlight to stop the floating oil layer from heating up. It's basically an advanced toilet, very clever idea and they ran the numbers on pressure, diameters and stuff like that, it looked very viable from my admittedly layman perspective.

>>10795228
if you're in the middle it's better to wait because you'd be waiting anyway

Raptor SN-6 did a 85 second test fire last night btw

>>10795289
We Mars nao

>>10794732
It’s quite funny what’s happening on r/spacexmasterace with this post, it’s getting massively upvoted by SpaceX fans as an ironic meme with good art, despite the fact it was originally made unironically by r/enoughmuskspam people to mock Starship, who are now patting themselves on the back.

>>10795335
>Good art
>Literally made with over9000 hours in mspaint

>Parting themselves on the back for making a fucking standard 4chan meme

Absolute

State

>>10795335
have you considered going back

>>10794725
>>10795046
10000 gazilion hours in CoDE

>>10795289
350+ sec when?

>>10795446
Probably not until they've gotten one installed on the hopper. SpaceX's test facility IIRC does not have the fuel capacity for full duration burns.

>>10795229

>>10795446
Just watch this about three times while squinting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp0WgodhR7s

MEANWHILE IN THE BELT...
Hayabusa 2 is approaching Ryugu for touchdown and sampling. Stay tuned for a slideshow of images presented in near real time!
http://www.hayabusa2.jaxa.jp/en/galleries/onc/nav20190710/

>>10795228
with the right window it's as little as 6 months

Will I be able to get a martian gf in my lifetime?

>>10795228
2 years between the lambert windows (~26 months actually). half a year of travel time with a hohmann trajectory.

>>10795474
the way to read this is that all the white areas basically mean that it's impossible during these windows
the very bottom spike of the Earth to Mars transfer windows are what SpaceX are aiming for for their manned transfers
hohmann transfers are the deep blue pocket near the bottom of the transfer windows, the absolute minimum energy transfers (which aren't the maximum time transfers, where you spend multiple orbits of the sun just waiting for Mars to line up properly)
>>10795487
no, but somebody might get a martian daughter

>>10795474
the diagonal lines trace out arrival times, anything on that line will arrive at Mars at the same time

>>10795087
>the airlock system could be replaced with a U bend tunnel
>>10795126
>>10795229
>>10795237
>>10795458

What you're proposing is a water seal, and its a HUMONGOUSLY retarded idea, the mere fact that you even entertain such a wrong notion indicates you shouldnt even be allowed to express your opinion on space travel, much less work for it, as a matter of fact, you should never be allowed to work on anything more complex than janitorial work, it would be a waste trying to teach you something.


But here's the explanation why, as i was saying, youre proposing a water seal:it's used here on earth to prevent gases for mixing, mainly for the purpose of avoiding smells, but it requires pressure on both sides. A toilet, for instance, does this. Pic related

>>10795706
This is what would happen on mars where you would need to have 1 atmosphere of pressure on the inside but the outside would be close to no atmosphere.

>>10795710
>Implying 1bar would push the water out

Neck your self

>>10795747
>>10795747
Let's say the opening of the airlock is circular and has a diameter of 1 meter (100 cm) . The surface area would be:

pi*radius*radius
3,14*50*50=7850 cm2

1 atm is around 1kg/cm2, so the force pushing from the inside out would be around 7800kg aka 7,8 freaking tons.

the literal ONLY OTHER FORCE IN PLAY HERE is gravity, so to even out those 7800kg youd need enough water on the exit side to generate that force, the specific density is around 1000kg/m3, but since this is mars gravity you have to divide it by 0.38 (because mars gravity is 38% weaker).

So 7800kg divided by 0.38, then divided by 1000kg/m3= 20,52 m3

if you keep the diameter of the tunel constant at 1 m then the surface of the tunnel would be 0,5mx0,5mx3,14=0,78meteres, that means that part of the tunel would have to be 26,30meters long.

Plausible, but still highly retardedpi*radius*radius
3,14*50*50=7850 cm2

1 atm is around 1kg/cm2, so the force pushing from the inside out would be around 7800kg aka 7,8 freaking tons.

the literal ONLY OTHER FORCE IN PLAY HERE is gravity, so to even out those 7800kg youd need enough water on the exit side to generate that force, the specific density is around 1000kg/m3, but since this is mars gravity you have to divide it by 0.38 (because mars gravity is 38% weaker).

So 7800kg divided by 0.38, then divided by 1000kg/m3= 20,52 m3

if you keep the diameter of the tunel constant at 1 m then the surface of the tunnel would be 0,5mx0,5mx3,14=0,78meteres, that means that part of the tunel would have to be 26,30meters long.

Plausible, but still highly retarded

>>10795706
>implying the beaver lodge pic was the same guy

How can we decolonize aerospace? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9SiRNibD14

>>10795809
and that's for a 1m wide hole, barely big enough for a person with a particularly slim space suit.

A 3m hole (barely big enough for the folder lunar lander to go in) would need to be 185 meter long

>>10795809
Why one whole atmosphere? Just go with less, my dude.

>>10795881
ok then, modern space suits go 20kpa. (reminder, to do this you must have a 100 oxygen mix, that means do not ever have a fire, basically do not ever have a spark of any kind.

Thats around 1/5th the pressure. It's still a 37 meter drop for a 3m wide hole (minimum for any viable equipment to go trough. That has the added complexity that a space suit is not a diving suit.

>>10795843
Make the outside pond a lot wider. I mean it's still a stupid idea but there should be more atmospheric pressure if you do that.

>>10795335
Your kind aren't welcome here

>>10795335

>>10795809
1atm is about 10 meters of water. not 20. and making the structure that can support that is not very hard.

>>10795997
o shit its mars gravity. i was fucking dumb

>>10795997
I still don't get it... where is the delicious cake and the portal gun?

>>10795997
We can use oil and other stuff

From L2:
So that large structure they are building next to Starship. It is a massive wind breaker. It'll be covered in fabric when the structure is complete. Reason they need it is because the coastal wind impacts on the welding, which needs to be perfect. So that's why they are building it.

How underwhelming...

The SLS is a failure, just wait till we get someone in office who can expand NASA's funding.

>>10796011
still the problem is you have to go trough a liquid that will fuck up your space suit in a lot of ways.

Want to use a denser liquid? an oil, or shit with dissolved stuff will be at the very very most twice as dense as regular water. It's still a 15 meter drop for a 3m wide hole, pure oxygen environment inside. And once water has shit disolved it becomes increasingly hard to clean from the suits.

In order to make it even remotely feasible you should use mercury or something.

Bottom line is, any way you do it you probably have to carry it from earth, thats 8 tons of cargo versus a couple of airlock which can work by tensile strenght made from something like ultra advanced kevlar and would probably weight less than a potato.

>>10795022
Believe what you want to believe. I'm not "FUDposter."

>>10795843
>>10795809
Wouldn't it be the same head pressure whether the hole is 10m wide or 1m wide?
Why does the width of the hole matter?
For example a 1m tall tube full of water will have the same pressure at the bottom as 1m deep in the ocean.
What am I missing here?

>>10796092
it will be the same pressure caused by gravity, but the pressure caused by the inside atmosphere will absolutely be determined by the contact area. So there's really no reason to make the outside hole bigger than the inside hole

>>10796106
Ahh i'm a brainlet, makes sense thanks anon.

>>10796132
never admit a mistake, the scientific method is about who yells loudest

>>10796132
>>10796106
>>10796092
>>10796071
>>10795997
>>10795809
>>10795710
>>10795706


Tensile airlocks are clearly the answer. A tarp covering the hole secured by a robust zipper would be cheap as fuck by aeroespace standards. Imagine a 15m diameter wide hole, big enough for two starships to go in, a kevlar tarp would only need to be about 3cm width, ti would weight around 20 kg.

that's 0,00002% of the cargo capacity of the starship and you can fold it to fuck and back until it fits in like a suitcase, it doesnt even need to be pressurized for the ride.

One BFR worth of airlocks would be enough to build a big city on mars even with replacements.

That versus carrying around 20 tons(20% of starship capacity) of water or some dangerous chemicals if you want a slight volume bonus for making only one airlock.

which one you decide dummy

>>10796271
Mars sandstorms fuckin shred flesh off bones m8, I'm not sure even kevlar would hold up

>>10796281
HAHAHA, citation fucking needed.

highest wind speed on mars is 60 mph.

Woah!, imagine a low density piece of rock being flung at you at that speed.

Even the least powerful bullet travels at around 1500mph. And kevlar stops projectiles made of ultra high density lead with a particular ballistic shape aimed straight at it.

Also, since theres no atmosphere on mars wind can go fast but its weak as fuck it will never make anything bigger than a dust particle fly.


So no, a kevlar airlock that can withstand internal pressure can definitely withstand external shitty martian winds and probably even quite a lot of bullets too

>>10796281
Also even if winds were severe the work around would be easy as fuck. there youo go, i also made it meteorite proof.

Are you representative of the average nasa engineer? because if so i get why your spaceprogram is so fucked

>>10796106
>>10795809

I dont get your overly complex math. Isnt this a simple case of "pressure at interior surface must equal pressure from water column"?

So if both enter and exit is equal size, then the water column must have constant height.

On Mars it will be determined by a simple formula:

WaterColumnHeight = AirPressure / (MarsGravity * WaterDensity)

WaterColumnHeight = 100,000 kPa / (3.711 * 1000)

WaterColumnHeight = 26.95 meters


Here is the pic from autists at NSF

>>10795023
I'd go, if I had the money. To be honest you are looking to be the explorers of the last century, the ones that charted the unkown.
It's now a blackened space. You have enermous mountains, that ravine that no one knows what's at the bottom of. The more north you go, the more of a chance you get to have ice samples.
If you are just there you can go to a river bed to drill one of those geological time line samples. The first people there is what shit will be named after for the rest of their lives. And who knows what they'll find.

Radiation and an early death is a small price to pay. Or I don't know maybe the buggies have a lead roof. It's not impossible ammounts of radiation to deal with

>>10796367
>100,000 kPa
100,000Pa

>>10796367
It's not overly complex, its not complex at all, sorry if you dont even have high school level math and pretend to be qualified to talk about space exploration.


Autists wrote 10 meters instead of 26, they were thinking earth gravity.
But other than that sure, it's possible, only exremely retarded.

Here's some basic basic basic BAAAASIIIC logical thinking:

Have you ever tried driving a car trough the bottom of a lake and then back up? probably not.

Making a car>Making a car that goes under water>Making a car that works in vacuum>making a car that works in vacuum and underwater.

Same applies to space suits, cargo and everything.

Designing a submarine is not the same as designing a spaceship, pressure from the outside in versus pressure from the inside out are fundamentally different problems. So you are overengineering by 200% literally 100% of everything that goes into the shelter.

The solution is expensive, overcomplicated, dangerous and pointless:

>>10796323
This is a much more elegant cheaper and better solution in every way.

But even if you didnt design somethign as genius as me, then still just putting regular steel airlocks is much more intelligent that that water seal toilet retardation

>>10796367
also, for that shit to work, you have to dig at least 30 meters long for a 45° slope. digging aint easy it takes time even on earth under normal conditions.

It will take you 30 meters of digging just to finish the god damn airlock. On the contrary with the tensile system you dig a 3 meter buffer, 3 meter airlock and then the other 24 meters can already be pressurized

>>10796106
Wrong, retard.

>>10796092
This is correct

>>10795843

>>10796451
ABSLOTELEY 11278904789123489712978132789% wrong confirmed forever to be a retard. pic related

>>10796466
>>10796451
HAHAHHAHAHAH SOME SAMEFAG PROBABLY SPENT LIKE A MONTH DEISGNIGN THAT RETARDED WATERSEAL SHIT THATS 10000% WORTHLESS AND IS NOW BUTTHURT CAUSE I BUTT ANNIHILATED HIS IDEA FOREVER IN ONE PICOSECOND, OH YOUR TEARS ARE DELICIOUS.

>>10796476
>A 3m hole (barely big enough for the folder lunar lander to go in) would need to be 185 meter long
Explain this, retard. I wanna have a laugh.

Only just skimmed this autism above me, but can my skills be of any assistance?

>>10796473
thx for the post roel

>>10796489
ok,

step 1) finish kindergarden

step 2) finish elementary school (youll have to get your mother to stop sucking cocks for a while to sign the papers)

step3)

The pressure applied on the inside is dependant of the size of the hole. A bigger hole will apply more force, needing a higher column of water to balance it.

wait that was too complex:

Inner pressure pressy pressy, is dependant on sizey size of holey hole. bigger holey hole, bigger pressy pressy. Your mommy=whorey.

bigger holey hole bigger pressy pressy

why not just a large air pump that blows the dust particles or a vacuum? Then just blow some water over it.

>>10796498

>>10796506
consider this: if i applied 1000kg of logical undeniable arguments and you reply with a shitty retarded answer which you were forced to erase

then by simple logic --> your ass=annihilated by me

>>10795706

Solve the above
>>10796495

>>10791873
Would a human survive a TV fall on Mars, provided the atmosphere was Earthlike?

>>10796525
That's TV?

>>10796521
Still waiting for you to explain this >>10796489

how much would 1/3 gravity assist with heavy movement of objects like giant rocks, heavy picks for clearing debree. Does it cost less in energy to say move a buggie across the terrain

>>10796531
>>10796498


>>10796473


want a third time? if you want ill destroy your retarded asshole another time, i cant belive that even as a joke you have the lack of self worth needed to even pretend to be right

>>10796529
Terminal Velocity.

>>10796523
Hm, well I'd like to contest the image. Why does mars have 1 atm of pressure on the surface? Shouldn't it be 610 Pa or whatever?

>>10796540
Imagine 0 bar at Mars surface

>>10796537
>3m hole
>185m long
Come on buddy. Im waiting

>>10796531

Picture this. Pressure can be expressed as force/surface.
1 atm= around1kg cm2

Your airlock is 10.000cm2? (1x1m) Then the inner force is 10.000cm2 *1kg/cm2 = 10.000kg

But if your airlock is 30.000cm2?(3x3) Then the inner force is 30.000kg.

Just simple math bruh

>>10796540
this image obviously represents earth, it says earth and its clarified in the text:
>>10795706


These other images are different solutions on mars:
>>10795710
>>10795809
>>10795997
>>10796323
>>10796473

>>10796533
Yes, pushing heavy objects would require less force, but on the other hand you would have less traction.

>>10796548
At this point youre just covering your ears and yelling "you're wrong" i explained it many times over. Tell me which part of the math is wrong.

Answer these questions:

What pressure does 1atm exhert on a 3m wide hole?

If you wanted to equal that pressure with a column of water in martian gravity, how high would that column need to be?

>>10796543
So what, like 27m or something for Mars then? ρgh and all...

>>10796555
>If you wanted to equal that pressure with a column of water in martian gravity, how high would that column need to be?
Not 185 meters as you claim, moron

>>10796563
Does it matters if left side is 1m in diameter and right side 3m?
Sry I forgot all of this from high school

>>10796572
no

>>10796525
Assuming the same surface pressure and air composition? No. It will be g(earth)/g(mars) slower, which is about 2.64, not much. A typical skydiving terminal velocity of 50m/s will become 19m/s for your conditions, which is still more than enough to kill you, especially if you're falling prone to lower your velocity.

>>10796533
It will make hauling big loads harder because you have the same inertia but much less traction. Moon rovers struggle with low traction since forever. Mars is easier but still harder than on earth.

>>10796572
Nope. you're probably thinking of Bernoulli

>>10796564
ok, show me which part of the math is wrong.

Contact surface of a 3m(300cm) wide hole= 3.14x300cmx300cm=282600cm2

1 atm = 1kg/cm2

Force exherted by the atmosphere on that hole=282600cm2 *1kg/cm2= 282600kg

Formula for the weight of a water column=

Pe(Density of water)*h(height)*g(gravity accelleration)=f(force)

Density of water = 1000kg/m3

height= what were trying to find out

g on mars=3.8 m/s2

force= must be equal to the one we calculated in the previous step

From that it stands that
h=f/g*pe

282600kg/3.8 m/s2*1000kg/m3=74,36 meters


ok shit, maybe my math was a little off.

>>10796597
still retardedly long tough

>>10796419
>Autists wrote 10 meters instead of 26, they were thinking earth gravity.
no, they were thinking lower pressure inside habitat

I've got a novel concept for an airlock on a Mars base. It's mechanically simple, with only a few moving parts, and much lighter than a flooded lock.

What if we have a door, and then a space, and then another door?

>>10796597
Lol based retard

>>10796597
>surface of a 3m(300cm) wide hole= 3.14x300cmx300cm=282600cm2
ayy

>>10796601
so they unironically think repeating apollo 1 is a good idea?

>>10796014
oh, right
it's impossible to weld if there's any wind at all, how could I forget that

>>10796071
the height of the drop will always be the same for any diameter, because that's how water pressure works you fucking retard

>>10796607
you gonna challenge that?

>>10796281
nah m8

>>10796613
no you retardomaster magnifico, thats how pressure works for a column of a liquid affected by gravity only. On the side of the habitat the force is not exherted by gravity but by the extra pressure from the air you crammed in, while the outside is a vacuum.

>>10796597
height of the column is always the same you idiot

see here

>>10796367

>>10796614
3.14X150X150=70650
:^)

>>10796623
both air pressure and water pressure are per area

>>10796627
well ill be damned

>>10796630
pressure exherted by gravity remains constant in a column of water at a certain height.

The pressure from inside of the habitat is not exerted by gravity, it's exerted by the air that was crammed into that hole.

>>10796495
as a pipe helper in my previous life, head pressure is directly related to how tall your water column is, and almost no other factors, right
it can even change diameter and not affect your answer in the slightest

>>10796640
THAT?S WWHEN ALL THERE IS IN THE COLUMN IS WATER YOU RETARD. IMAGINE YOU INJECTED A HIGH PRESSURE BUBBLE OF AIR AT THE BOTTOM, DO YOU THINK IT WOULD STAY CONSTANT? YOU PIECE OF SHIT INBRED BABY, PIPE HELPER FUCK STAY AWAY FROM COLLEGE

>>10796638
pressure exerted by air remains constant , it is called atmospheric pressure, and does not depend on diameter

>>10796623
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydrostatic-pressure-water-d_1632.html

>>10796646
atmospheric pressure on earth remains constant at a certain height because its caused by gravity.

in this case we are talking about pressure inside a closed habitat.

the literal definition of pressure is force/surface you retarded piece of shit.

>>10796645
all changing what's in the column does is change the density
why you heff to be mad, is only game

>>10796649
that's for a pipe with nothing but water in it, this is not the case.

try to think instead of blindly thinking youre right.

>>10796653
dumbass

>>10796650
surface in the denominator means pressure does not depend on surface area you moran

again, this post is correct

>>10796367

>>10796665
he's wrong too, because the entry and exit don't need to be equal size, due to the forces exerted by the walls of the container

>>10796665
that post does not contradicts anything i previously said

>>10796597
Air force = 100 kPa * area

Water force = density * gravity * height * area

Thesse must be equal.

Height = 100 kPa * area / ( density * gravity * area )
= 100 kPa / ( density * gravity )
= 100 kPa / (1000kg/m3 * 3.8m/s2 )
= 26.3m

>>10796597
Air force = pressure * area

Water force = density * gravity * height * area

These must be equal.

Height = pressure * area / ( density * gravity * area )
= pressure / ( density * gravity )
= 100 kPa / (1000kg/m3 * 3.8m/s2 )
= 26.3m

>>10796712
you set those two things equal, and the areas cancel out because they're always the same, and then you're left with the formula in this article: >>10796649

>here's your aerospace-grade fuel chilling machine, bro

>>10796796
actually I think that's the "emergency heatstroke recovery and prevention measures"

>>10796281
mars wind aint shit because of the thin atmosphere

>>10796804
>>10796804
>mars wind aint shit because of the thin atmosphere

one of the biggest faults with the martian movie too.

>>10796799
Jesus fuck McMaster why are these so expensive

>>10796799
so they throw mexicans in an ice chest?

>>10796810
nah bruh this is what you want

>>10796810
safety gear is expensive. Also those don't work that well. Phase change coolers in contact with the body cause the body to burn more calories in an attempt to stay warm. There are personal cooling systems for the military which are really mini AC units, but those are hella expensive. Have nice little wankel compressors and a wearable heat exchanger.

Hey I'm interested in hard Sci-Fi and I'd like to pick your minds about some concepts I am toying withThought this didn't deserve its own thread but let me know if I should post somewhere else.

Basically the plot of the first arc is based about our hero accidentally uncovering the existence of a moon base made by a crazy billionaire / a secret society after she investigates a series of asteroid crashes
An expedition is mounted but as they arrive they realize the whole base was about building a big spaceship that is launched under their nose to go and colonize mars and the jovian moons

So the goal of our villains (or are they the true hero) is to build a sizeable spacecraft to explore the solar system
They need a base built by robots mixing regolith and coloid to print caves/domes under which a small industrial complex can be fitted.
grinder for the ice, piping, solar panels(nuclear reactor) for energy and ice melting, electrolysis tanks for hydrogen / oxygen separation from water and compressor + tanks for storage of LOX and LH2.
I think that producing enormous ammount of carburant in space will save a lot of energy.
Maybe there should be some basic metallurgy complex too in order to build the general structure of the spacecraft that would then be fitted with sensitive electronics and modules built on earth ?

How would our villains proceed to send that much material to the Moon? the base would have to be on the dark side to avoid direct observation. should it go in one all big payload or should there be several smaller probes carrying materials
we imagine that they have the technology and patience to have deviated some asteroids and crash them close to the industrial site to mine their ressources (mainly ice)

>>10796892
plenty of ice on the moon, the things you need from asteroids are nitrogen, carbon, and the trace elements required for life, such as potassium and phosphorus

>>10796910
Is it abundant enough to be mined at small scale? From what I read there are only traces in the soils and that would need a sizeable operation. Crashing a few tons of ice directly close to the site might be more efficient? (Estimating that deviating the asteroid to crash it is easy)
How would you extract and store the nitrogen or carbon ?

>>10796952
>how would you extract and store the nitrogen and carbon
as potatoes

>mining tritanium asteroids

>>10796367
any way this disucssion is retarded because water airlock is a super retarded concept

and tensile airlock is infinitely superior:
>>10796323

>>10796969
better be Japanese purple sweet ones

>>10797103
>water airlock is a super retarded concept
you're a super retarded concept, bitch

How will private property work on mars. Say you want to live on mars fully as a hypothetical. Can you buy land, or is all under some government entity. Granted I could see, if Musk started selling off parts of mars on conditional leases with transport attached or something.

>>10797139
governments aren't allowed to stake claims on astral bodies
nobody knows what this actually means, but they're not going to be able to stop you if you just shoot your neighbors/the chinese when they won't fuck off/have the choice spot that you wanted

>>10797146
>governments aren't allowed to stake claims on astral bodies
I'm kinda curious about how that is enforced. Like, what if China, during it's manned lunar landing mission, lands near the Apollo 11 site and claims it as a part of China?

>>10797158
the UN complains about it, and then moon war

>>10797128
how is it better than tensile airlock.

A tensile airlock made out of kevlar can resist bullets, can be big enough to cover a hole in which two bfr can go trough, takes up virtually 0 weight and volume on the spaceship and most importantly, doesnt forces you to design every single piece of tech as water proof in addition to vacuum proof.

Why on earth would you choose that over the chad tensile airlock

>>10797158
well that's part of it, what stops goverements buying mars transport setting up armoured deployments on rorations and occupying territory for study purposes wink wink

>>10797162
if you're designing your vehicles for 1 atmosphere of oxygen rich air to have them parked in the garage instead of outside then it's not such a leap for 1 atmosphere of water pressure
actually yes it is, you're right
but water airlocks do solve the issue of perchlorates in the soil contaminating your habitable spaces, if you enforce a suit bath every time you need to walk outside, then...

>>10797173
Not to sound like my favorite hat material is tin or aluminum, but that makes me wonder if the reason why the US was so hostile to the Chinese space program early on was to keep the Chinese from settling in space. Since there really isn't any way to stop a government (that has the capability to send significant payloads to space) from claiming stuff in space other than having an enforcing presence already there (sure, there's stuff that can be done on Earth, but war on Earth is becoming harder to do between great powers), then if the US wanted to stop the Chinese from manifesting destiny on Mars then the US would need to be on Mars. Such a presence would require an uptick in aerospace spending, reforms, and industry buildup that the post-Recession US felt that it would be far too costly to do and thus would be easier to just slow down the Chinese as much as possible on the space front down on Earth.

>>10797181
>if you're designing your vehicles for 1 atmosphere of oxygen rich air to have them parked in the garage instead of outside then it's not such a leap for 1 atmosphere of water pressure
but thats wrong you retard.

Take a look at how a submarine is built

Take a look at how a spaceship is built

do they seem similar? no
cause they aren't.

withstanding pressure from the outside/withstanding pressure from the inside.

>>10797181
>but water airlocks do solve the issue of perchlorates in the soil contaminating your habitable spaces, if you enforce a suit bath every time you need to walk outside, then...
well there are ways around that don't involve digging a 10 meter long tunel and wasting a good couple of tons of water

>>10797188
>1 atmosphere internal pressure
vs
>neutral pressure
not such a big difference, anon, it's not going to cause structural issues like you're implying
even at the deepest part of the water airlock the pressure is only ~1 atmosphere

>>10797192
>even at the deepest part of the water airlock the pressure is only ~1 atmosphere
It's the same as submerging something completely underwater.

Have you ever seen what being submerged even partially underwater does to say... a car?


Why are you so fucking obsessed with this water airlock shit? its obviously much more trouble than its worth. Obviously 1000% non considered for first missions. But even far into the future, once this idea is even entertained you should have an industrial base on mars to create whatever airlock you want

>>10797195
it's the sort of artsy but viable bullshit that triggers autists like you and that gets me off
also like three people have picked up this argument
more importantly is the concept of a pressurized garage to work on vehicles
reclaiming the air before depressurizing for egress is very important, I'd think?

>>10794725
i only see a buttplug there

>creating pressure with water
just use a gas pump and a valve kek

>>10797206
>reclaiming the air before depressurizing for egress is very important, I'd think?
youll need to do that for every kind of airlock and youll have losses with every kind of airlock

>>10797235
don't a lot of airlocks just vent their insides to space because reclaiming it is too expensive?

>>10797239
apollo airlocks did that, not because of the expense but because the added complexity. But that was a fairly small vehicle

the jist here is that size is no issue, you can put your air reclaimer shit wherever. Just close one airlock, filter all the air back in and bam, youre done

ESA Vega flight of FalconEye-1 in a few minutes (delayed many times due to upper level winds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urn21-XQc5A

>>10797265
also, Russia snuck in an unannounced Soyuz 2.1v milsat launch earlier today

>>10797265
Uh, oh. Looks like the 2nd stage failed to ignite!!

>>10797299
I think you're right. Looks like they lost telemetry.

>>10797309
declaring loss of mission

looks like today Volga trumps Vega

the absolute state of europ

is space colonization a meme? will we ever have full blown civilizations on mars and other planets?

nice ballistic trajectory you've got there ESA

A very simple question: apart from the Lunar samples returned by the Apollo landings, have any other samples from a planetary body ever been brought to Earth via spacecraft/artifice/human effort?

>>10797325
Yes. There were three soviet Luna probes that recovered small amounts. One of the failed Luna missions crashed into the moon as Buzz and Neil were walking around, pretty crazy

Gerstenmaier got demoted?

>>10797324
this might be the first time in the history of orbital rocketry that a solid fueled stage has failed to ignite.

>>10797362
seems that ArianeGroup has been having various issues as of late

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHyEDliXf28 video of the failure for anyone who didn't see it

ESA

ON

SUICIDE

WATCH

>>10797362
>this might be the first time in the history of orbital rocketry that a solid fueled stage has failed to ignite.

It sounds like the failure happened shortly after second stage ignition, which would suggest burn-through.

>>10797299
aw man

>>10795809
>>10795843

Dude, the width of the the tunnel/shaft does not matter. Basic statics.

>>10797571
I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't retarded

>>10797195
>Why are you so fucking obsessed with this water airlock shit? its obviously much more trouble than its worth.

It is the simplest solution to actually build. Not sure about vehicle airlock, but for a personal airlock you have a spacesuit anyway. And you are going to bore lots of long and deep tunnels anyway, as it is th emost efficient way to create pressurized space protected from radiation.

I mean, I doubt it will happen but it is interesting to think about the most low tech way humans can live on Mars, and waterlock is aa viable way to do that.

>>10795514
>no, but somebody might get a martian daughter
Why not?

>>10797641
is she truly a martian if she's an immigrant?
but somebody might get a daughter who's a second gen martian, but she'll be way too young for us

>>10797381
Are there any other recent issues? The last one I could think of was when they fucked up Ariane 5's trajectory, but that's a while ago.

we've already seen this, right
it's old news as far as I'm aware
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/licenses_permits/media/Final%20Experimental%20Permit%20and%20Orders%20EP%2019-012%20Starship%20Hopper%20(06-21-2019).pdf

>>10797681
>SpaceX may operate the Starship Hopper vehicle to an altitude that does not exceed 25 meters AGL

>>10797695
please note:
UNLIMITED

FLIGHTS

>>10797681
HOP WHEN
O
P

W
H
E
N

>drumpf just fired the best scientist in NASA and is replacing him with a corporate puppet

Are americans really this fucking stupid?

>>10797850
NASA has spent half a century doing fuck all except funneling money to mic contractors so it's not like it makes any real difference.

>>10797269
Wow, it was single stick Soyuz. I forget that they even exist. I guess it was some really classified shit, because it was completely announced.
https://youtu.be/Fke1C25EbLs

Is it good that the Shuttle program was defunded?

>>10798060
Yes. It was too expensive and not that good. And stupidly complex. NASA tends to reuse legacy parta of its past projects and it always end up terribly bad

Europe needs SpaceX, or a SpaceX replacement. It's shit that shitty laws prevent it from working in both europe and america

>>10798060
Yea it never met it's goals of low cost reusability and killed more astronauts than any other spacecraft.

>>10798096
>killed more astronauts than any other spacecraft.

It also delivered more astronauts (833) to space than any other spacecraft

>>10797265
Colour me surprised, till they jail that corrupt fuck we won't be able to have certainty.

>>10798060
Yes. It was just as or more expensive per launch than the Saturn V. Failed to meet it's goals for reusability, and most likely hurt the very concept for most space organizations. Restricted NASA to low Earth orbit. The program assumed reliability rates similar to that of airliners, even though their engineers said that it wasn't possible. Management being obsessed with launching the Shuttle as much as possible. And on and on and on. One could make an entire documentary on how messed up the Shuttle was for NASA.

And the biggest problem was that NASA not only accepted those (and more) faults of the Shuttle, but did nothing to alleviate them. My guess was due to fears of making Congress canceling the Shuttle program and thus leaving NASA with no manned vehicle. Not even the technology from the ambitious X-33 program, such as the metal belly tiles which were much stronger than the foam tiles the Shuttle had, were incorporated into the Shuttle as an upgrade. If I recall correctly, no major upgrades were done on the Shuttle.

And the most depressing thing about the Shuttle is that the flaws weren't made apparent to NASA (nor most people at the time) until seven astronauts were killed by it, and then the Shuttle was finally retired after another seven. At the time of the Shuttle's beginnings, NASA was getting severe budget cuts and the Shuttle was seen as a miracle cure. With the flaws not being apparent or just ignored.

Raptor SN6 was just delivered minutes ago to boca chica. Looks like it shipped overnight.

40 years ago

F

>>10798264
Hop when

>>10796539
Good luck surviving 1000 kph fall.

>>10792207
>Urethral sounding the demon core

Some stats for SN6 since it departed McGregor now.

Five Main Stage tests:

1) 20 seconds
2) 10 seconds
3) 50 seconds - soft abort
4) 65 seconds
5) 85 seconds

live video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tc-XTAp0is

>>10797850
>>drumpf just fired the best scientist in NASA and is replacing him with a corporate puppet

Who? Gerstenmaier? Isnt he quite negative about commercial providers, obstructing our boy Bridenstine? Good riddance, I say.

changes happening at NASA....

>>10798430
neato

>>10798430
does this guy ever shut up? muted

kino raptor transport truck

>>10798446
>replying to it
trolls are for reporting, not responding

>>10798448
I can feel shelby's ass pain from here

>>10797618
>It is the simplest solution to actually build.
no, the tensile airlock is much much simple to build. Build the hole, unpack from the ship, attach to sides, done.

Water airlock? you need to build the hole, build an extra 30 meters of hole and then haul 10 tons of water, its literally useless shit

>>10798107
which could have been delivered safely with a soyuz no problem

Shuttle 100% undeniably number 1 astroanut killer
which makes americans n1 astronaut killer

>>10798134
>And the most depressing thing about the Shuttle is that the flaws weren't made apparent to NASA (nor most people at the time) until seven astronauts were killed by it,

this is false. Shuttle engineers knew exactly why it would fail and when. they directly notified nasa officials and they choose to say no.

Those nasa officials should be executed.

-HEY MR ADMINISTRATOR MAN, THE SHUTTLE WILL EXPLODE TODAY, BECAUSE OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS.
-Ah hahaha, i dont care, its just a kindergarden teacher on that flight its not like its important, i just want prestige so im gonna kill them in the off chance that you , a trained engineer who worked on this project, is wrong

>>10798514
unfortunately, unlike the water airlock, tensile airlocks become harder and harder the bigger you build them
1 atmosphere is a lot of pressure, I don't see it happening

>>10798448
>inb4 fat contract to ULA to bolster the public-private partnership

>>10798520
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH

you retarded asshole, the bigger the water airlock is the more water you have to haul in, its exactly the same problem.

Kevlar tensile strenght is mad, like mad strong.

You could easily have an 8 meter wide airlock that's less than half a cm thick.

You could have one thats 15-30 meters wide(much more than youll ever need) and still have it be barely a couple cms.

And it weighs nothing, even the 30 meters one could be carried in a suitcase by a person, literally because of volume and weight.


Compare that to using water.

how big is the tunel? 3 meters wide?
You need to fill the 15 meters of distance with water.

1.5m*1.5m*3.14*15m=105 cubic meters of water.

Thats a whole BFR worth of water just for your retarded idea. Or if youre gonna mine it, its still not trivial to get and transport 100 tons of water around.

Forget it, youre idea is dumb and will not happen.

Tensile airlock is the way to go and is the only logical alternative to actual compression airlocks.


Its like asking , GEEEE should i move my car around on wheels or just tie up a screaming circus midget to the axis??? that is what you sound like

>>10798064
Europe can ride on Chinese rockets.

yes

>>10798530
you can tell it's a raptor because an engineer bird has made a nest in it

>>10798530
the black MIDI of plumbing

>>10798530
Oops! All Sensors

>>10798517
>this is false. Shuttle engineers knew exactly why it would fail and when. they directly notified nasa officials and they choose to say no.
I guess I should've clarified that I meant that the flaws of Shuttle weren't widely known. At the time there were those who knew of various flaws of the Shuttle but were either kept quiet or were downplayed. It wasn't until a Shuttle and astronauts were in peices that all the flaws were put together.

>Those nasa officials should be executed.
That's a bit harsh, but an understandable sentiment considering that the engineer who tried to warn everyone about the Challenger got fired for doing so. NASA had some serious management issues that still continue today. Which makes their "culture review" of SpaceX ironic.

Face it /sci/ this tincan is not going to fly not now not ever. Rockets need to be made in extremely clean conditions under utmost care utilizing highly controlled environments and oversight over years and even more you can't just weld one out of scrap in a week out in the open like a grain silo. If it was that easy getting to the Moon wouldn't need half the US budget.

>>10798540
I see you haven't been keeping up with the sounding rocket community

If it doesn't explode though, it should definitely go to udvar-hazy for display or something

>>10798539
>I guess I should've clarified that I meant that the flaws of Shuttle weren't widely known.
Yes they were, the engineer called and said, its gonna explode because of the cold and the orings. Exactly that happened.
they also knew the ceramic tiles were too weak, which is exactly why the second one happened. A third accident almost ocurred but it was purely luck that it didnt, A tile fell off on ascent but it just happened to be the one that was under a reinforced point, literally any of the other ones would have meant disaster

>>10798550
how the hell are you going to transport it, it's nine meters wide before you consider that it has huge legs attached

>>10798555
they are planning on building it next to the pad

>>10798561
no we're talking about the hopper, which was built next to the pad and then carted down the road to it
this faggot wants to cart it to fucking virginia

>>10798561
he means to the A&S museum

>>10798555
Gut it and use helis perhaps?

>>10798554
>they also knew the ceramic tiles were too weak, which is exactly why the second one happened
Are you referring to Columbia? Because it's failure wasnt due to the tiles, it was due to foam from the tank striking the leading edge wing. The carbon-carbon stuff the leading edge was made of is pretty strong. Then again, the foam strike wouldn't have happened if the tank was kept painted white.

>>10798514
>no, the tensile airlock is much much simple to build. Build the hole, unpack from the ship, attach to sides, done.

But then you need to bring stuff over from Earth. Waterlock can be built from common Martian materials only.

>>10798527
>Or if youre gonna mine it, its still not trivial to get and transport 100 tons of water around.

It is. Refueling Spaceships will require thousands of tons of water. This will be a pre-condition for any colony existing.

>>10798571
Kevlar is also EXTREMELY light, can be packed very light. You could get all the airlocks you would need for a big city on one trip.

On the other hand, water will not be like fucking tap water you asshole. hahah what do you think theyre gonna plug in the mine o matic and its like a waterfountain?

Known deposit will be mostly dirty sand that willt ake a lot of energy AND TIME. Its absolutely out of the question for the first missions that will have a very strict water budget .

by the time this huge waste is even feasible and if for some reason youd need that many airlocks implying a very, VERY big city, the industrial base over there will already be so fucking big they can manufacture them themselves.

>>10798520
>1 atmosphere is a lot of pressure
If you worry about that, you could make a three door airlock so that there is never more than 0.5atm pressure difference.

>>10798623
that's not how it works

>>10798647
wut? of course it is, just keep adjusting the pressure in both chambers

>>10798623
1 atmosphere is 16 psi or so, but for simplicity's sake we'll go with 1 bar, or 100,000 Pa
an airlock big enough for a man to walk through is two meters square, but let's just call it 2 meters diameter so that we end up with pi meters
if you've been keeping up, that means that a man-sized fabric airlock will have ~314,159 newtons of force applied to it at all times
that number is meaningless to me, so I'm going to give it some scale: that's 35 tons

>>10798530
HOP HOP HOP HOP HOP

>>10798647
you want to go into your habitat?
set inner chamber to 0.5atm and outer chamber to vacuum
open outer door, go in and close the door behind you
set outer chamber to 0.5atm
open middle door, go in and close the door behind you
set inner chamber to 1atm
open inner door and walk into your habitat

>>10798658
>>10798680

YOU ARE IN 1 ATM INSIDE YOUR HABITAT. YOU WANT TO GO TO THE FIRST CHAMBER THATS AT 0.5ATM. YOU NEED TO OPEN THE FIRST DOOR, REDUCE PRESSURE TO HALF IN THE WHOLE HABITAT AND KILL EVERYONE NOT IN A SPACESUIT

retards

>>10798686
first chamber is at 1 atmosphere, second is at 0.5 atm
move to first chamber, close behind you
depressurize to 0.5 atmospheres, move to second chamber
depressurize to mars ambient, open to mars ambient, leave
dumbass

>>10798686
are you really that dumb?
you go to inner chamber, close the inner door, reduce the inner chamber pressure to 0.5atm, etc...

>>10798691
>reduce the inner chamber pressure to 0.5atm
AND THEN YOU KILL ANYONE WHOS STILL INSIDE THE HABITAT, YOU RETARD

>>10798693
english isn't my first language, but this guy >>10798690 understood my idea.

>>10798567
>if the tank was kept painted white
BUT MUH CFC-FREE FOAMZ

it's a fucking troll you idiots
stop responding to it

he's pretending to be retarded and not know what an airlock is because you fuckmonkeys keep giving him (You)s

>>10798693
dumbass, there are four zones in this airlock
habitat, airlock zone 1, airlock zone 2, mars ambient

>>10798702
This is why never-ending generals are cancer, especially when faggots make new threads the moment they hit the bump limit. They stay on the front page where retards are most likely to see them, and the constant supply of retards can't resist bait.

>>10798530
>>10798540
I wonder how many country/corporate spies are currently watching the site right now

>>10798739
They won't be able to understand anything until they first master the secrets of the taco truck.

>>10798750
So you're saying that Mexico has a chance?

The good old Soyuz is doing pretty good lately with launches on the 5th and 10th and with two more in July at the 20th (New ISS crew) and 31st (Progress cargo for ISS).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11BOr6mIwa8
+
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXLhDeDIKbA

>>10798763
Soyuz will never die as long as there is market for medium-small payloads to low earth orbit

>>10798770
There will always be domestic demand for such military-intelligence satellites. R-7 rockets will continue to fly forever. Why change something that works.

>>10798567
>the foam strike wouldn't have happened if the tank was kept painted white.
false, there was more shit falling from the tank when it was painted, they tested for this after

the design is fundamentally flawed, the orbiter should have been on top of the stack

>>10798540

>>10798540
the virgin "carbon composite" vs the chad "stainless steel"

>>10798540
Why are you all falling for this ironical post?

>>10798555
do a suborbital hop and land in the Udvar-Hazy parking lot, boom done

>>10794789
I enjoyed the first half of that book, but fell off after the timeskip. Is it worth finishing? I'm balls deep in my backlog of Clarke and Asimov right now.

>>10798872
would they need Super Heavy for that

If this works then ULA should just dissolve. Imagine your competition builds a super heavy vehicle using construction workers without any clean rooms and completely exposed to the elements for months. What's the point of even existing after that?

>>10798910
yes. Hopper can fire for like 70 seconds at a time;

>>10798907
eh, the part of the book after the thousand year timeskip sucked

overall not NS's best work and I'm usually a fan

>>10798940
nah, it's got more in it than that

>>10798943
one raptor is like 200t of thrust. Methane + lox is heavy; I think some NFS peeps calculated it

>>10798910
>>10798940
several hops, one parking lot or vacant field to the next, trailed by tanker trucks full of liquid methane and oxygen
what could go wrong?

>>10798946
NEW SPACEX STARSHIP PROTOTYPE TESTS REUSE, LIGHTS BARN ON FIRE, SCARES COWS

>>10798945
well yeah, but they're going to have three raptors

>>10798907
I didn't think it was horrible but at the same time the ending wasn't anything special. Interesting part to me was the first half; the second is kind of generic

>>10798934
>completely exposed to the elements
SpaceX is building a wind barrier

>>10798962
turns out it's impossible to weld properly in Texas coastal winds
you need to either build a portable windbreak for your welders or shelter the whole structure

>Two key members of Congress, Reps. Eddie Bernice Johnson and Kendra Horn, say they’re “baffled” and “concerned” about NASA’s decision to reassign two top exploration officials late yesterday


>B A F F L E D

good on ya Bridenstein

>>10798986
D-TX-30 and D-OK-5 respectively

baffled! concerned!

>>10799004
friendship ended with oldspace
Now...

>>10798934
why dissolve when they can still embezzle government money?
SpaceX succeeding doesn't make all those bribes they gave to congressmen go away, they'll still funnel money to them no matter what Musk does

>>10799009
the air force needs two companies launching their payloads

the ULA merger is what prompted them to start pushing SpaceX across the line in the first place, and if ULA goes bankrupt the air force will get someone else to be their second provider, probably NG

>>10798953
>>10798941
Any recommendations for books with a similar feel to the first half? I enjoyed the hard sci-fi orbital stuff grounded in modern technology. I'm going through Rendezvous with Rama right now, and it has a good bit of that, but I liked how much of it was in the first half of Seveneves.

>>10799025
hmm. Blindsight, by Peter Watts? The vampires are dumb though

>>10798516

Until the numbers are at least similar, how can you even pretend to say "no problem"?

Of course, a man who pulls the trigger less often than another man will win more rounds of Russian roulette.

>>10798516
Soyuz has about the same failure rate as shuttle, it just has fewer seats

>>10799015
if by NG you mean New Glenn..

>>10799048
it also has an escape tower

>>10799048
failure =/= fatality

A reminder that the Soyuz was the cause of the ONLY human fatalities IN space.

>>10799064
I think it's kind of remarkable that nobody's ever died in orbit
how many have been dead men walking in orbit? Nine?

>>10798703
>>10798690
>>10798691
>>10798693
>>10798699

>>10799073
>fuck it I'm bored peace
amazing

>>10799064
The death of one military man in an extreme test during war time is tragic but not unheard of by a longshot. Of course from an american point of view dying for your country is foreign, they only rape children and risk their lives for money, only thing thats important to them.

That's why they killed a kindergarden teacher in the space shuttle, for money and prestige, and this wasnt a civilian.

USA confirmed for evil astronaut killer forever forbidden of ever even attempting to criticize other countries

>>10799076
>one

>>10799079
new soviet math

>>10799079
Vladimir Komarov, Soyuz 1

>>10799083
yes and also Dobrovolsky, Volkov, and Patsayev, Soyuz 11

the commies were indeed smart enough not to kill them all during a live telecast, I'll give them that

>>10799091
did Soyuz 11 depressurize before or after the reentry burn?

>>10798962
Florida Starship has one I think, and they have the benefit of trees.

>>10799079
one military man died in orbit in a test, dont be a wiseass, i know you have nothing good to say about your country but dont smear others

The ussr was basically feudal by 1920, by 1960 they had won the space race. Creating a new industrial civilization from scraps, after winning ww2 and while being under direct attack by the americans.

So yes, under that war situation in which spaceflight was critical for them to defend themselves against stealing american, 1 person died in orbit and 3 in crashes.

military men who knew it could happen, i know the concept is weird to americans who are so pussy that they revolted against conscription, even tough it was a war in which they enjoyed total supreme military technology against hungry peasants who barely had guns. Wonder why they lost vietnam


but lets take a look at the shuttle death? was something gained? no, did american have more money than the soveits in their program? basically 1000 times more. did they have a reason to force the shuttle flight ? no space race was over, was the crew military? not by a longshot and it included a 100% civilian teacher who was deceived to think it was safe.

Damn americans i know you like raping babies for profit but your total lack of morals and ethics never ceases to amaze me.

>>10799031
>vampires
wut

>>10799103
no, the other way around
3 in space after retrofire, 1 in a crash because his parachute didn't deploy

>>10799103
You seem to be really fixated on child rape.

>>10799094
after. during service module separation, a valve got left open

all bants aside, the shit is hard to do right and the engineering environment is absolutely unforgiving, the slightest misstep gets people killed

>>10799116
atrocities in general. Yes americans did them and i find it really disturbign.

I knwo that for your culture the death of children is normal. In your schools children fight to death and you find it natural, you are more worried about having guns to play as a toy than having your son not die.

That's ok, i understand your mentality is based on profit and evilness, but try to understand what its like to really love your family and then coming into contact with the american madness

>>10799094
>It quickly became apparent that they had asphyxiated. The fault was traced to a breathing ventilation valve, located between the orbital module and the descent module, that had been jolted open as the descent module separated from the service module, 12 minutes and 3 seconds after retrofire.[16][17] The two were held together by explosive bolts designed to fire sequentially; in fact, they had fired simultaneously.[16] The explosive force of the simultaneous bolt firing caused the internal mechanism of the pressure equalization valve to loosen a seal that was usually discarded later and which normally allowed for automatic adjustment of the cabin pressure.[16] The valve opened at an altitude of 168 kilometres (551,000 ft), and the resultant loss of pressure was fatal within seconds.[16][18]

>>10799123
lol bro go ask /k/ about the ostfront sometime

how did all of east Germany end up with Russian dna after ww2? I'm sure it was consentual...

>>10799105
The book Blindsight has a rather interesting, sci-fi take on vampires. Basically hundreds of thousands of years ago they were a species of hominid that lacked the ability to synthesize a certain protein, and needed to acquire it by hunting other hominids. Among other tricks these vampires evolved really good nightsight, the ability to go into a sort of torpor/suspended animation to hide from people for long periods of time, and most frighteningly, extremely high intelligence, a host of savant abilities & excellent pattern matching skills. They had a neurological glitch though, that got fixed into their small population early on - if two perpendicular lines crossing over each other took up too much of their visual field they would have a seizure. This caused them to go extinct at the dawn of civilization, once people started building stuff with lots of straight lines.

Then, shortly before the book is set, some scientist end up teasing out some of the leftover vampire genes from autistic-savants and sociopaths - back in the day these vampires would "play" with their food, get interrupted, leaving half-breeds to enter the human gene pool. They used this to create new vampires, thinking that anti-seizure meds would be enough of a leash to keep these super-intelligent beings under control.

>>10799136
>go ask inbred americans that learned their history from white supremacy groups.

I have an idea, how about you read a book? how about you chat with a harvard professor?

>>10799156
Russian savages raping their way across Europe is a documented fact Ivan.

In an attempt to bring spaceflight discussion back to /sfg/, here's one of my favorite Saturn derivatives. Not because it's practical, nor useful, but just the sheer coolness of it.

>>10799309
Although, I guess having the booster engines (along with avionics, presumably) come off as their own unit to be recovered does seem like a neat and potentiall useful idea.

*cough* *cough* Vulcan *cough*

>>10799318
>potentiall
I meant to say potentially. Oops.

bump limit, new thread

>>10799324

>>10799325
fuck off double nigger

>>10799325
>bump limit
this is a slow board, no need for a new thread yet!

>>10799298
americans torturing pregnant women in the pussy is also joe.

american savagery has no comparison.

All peoples have terrible thing, but america is mostly terrible things, theres no love no nothing.

If you dont bring an ipad to your child he thinks youre shit, hes just waiting to inherit your stuff because how you all live.
Love is forbidden in america.

>>10799325

You should wait untill page 9 or 10.

>>10799355
absolutely
SEETHING
vodkanigger

>>10798540
See you same time next week?

Why are old space concepts pictures so comfy?

>>10798529
>Chinese rockets
bigger meme than starship