/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10786023
Loss of necessity means loss of value. When you're cattle, you know that during the period where you're losing your value, you're going to be systematically discarded.

loss of jobs = loss of power.

universal basic income = slavery and centralized control.

So on. The distrust of the system is warranted.

>>10786023
It the same as the last industrial Revolution, tons of workers replaced by PLC.
Should a worker fear PLC/AI? Yes, will this fear stop progress? No.

>>10786033
>loss of jobs = loss of power.
>universal basic income = slavery and centralized control.
What the fuck? You are a perfect example of the people I am talking about.
So the fact that you are required to wake up at 7am every morning to sit in an office until 5pm, this is power to you?

universal basic income. If you are given free money, and so have no need to do anything but which you please... this is slavery and control?

What the hell is wrong with you people?

>>10786063
He has been conditioned since a young age to work until he is ground into dust anon. For him, there is no other way of life - anything else is unthinkable, simply blasphemy. It will be useless to try and convince him otherwise.

>>10786063
You really think that UBI won't come with strings attached? Who, what, decides the constraints you must abide by to remain a member of society? What decides the parameters outside of which you'll be locked out, excluded, and or disappeared?

I used to be a Utopian idealist, but I've seen the darkness that comes with it. How these things really play out. I'm not sure if I mind it or not, but be wary, it could be terrible. Someone will definitely have greater power for themselves. Look at China's social credit system.

Also, I will never have smart appliance or a cell phone. So this system will have pruned me long before it was fully up and running. Have fun I guess, for however long it lasts.

>>10786085
>Who, what, decides the constraints you must abide by to remain a member of society? What decides the parameters outside of which you'll be locked out, excluded, and or disappeared?
There are none, that is why it is "Universal" basic income.
The only requirement is that you are a citizen of the country. In America, you are a lifelong citizen if you are born on American soil.

>>10786091
And if the system is imperfect or unjust, and you try to change it? If you break laws, or have other minor infractions?

What's to stop this place from having its way with you. Even assuming equal means economically, people are not equal in ability. Not naturally... anyway...

>>10786102
I see your point, but what if you break laws today? You cannot get a job if you have any prison time on your record, except maybe a cashier or something. What's to stop current society from having it's way today? If you have no money, you have absolutely no power. And you cannot get that money without literally trading away your body and brainpower.

I see no difference between today's society and the dystopia that you are predicting.

The problem with you all is that you don't know what true freedom is, and what it isn't.

Freedom, loosely defined, means "being able to do whatever you want." Note that it does not mean "doing whatever you want." An alcoholic is doing whatever they want by getting wasted on alcohol all the time. But are they truly free? No. They are addicted and therefore enslaved, chained, to alcohol. It is their source of bondage.

True freedom comes from discipline, application of willpower, and exercise. These things build up freedom (capacity or ability to do whatever someone wants).The more you lift weights, the more you are able to lift more weights (which is a type of freedom- free or able to lift more, your muscular body is freer than the body of others).

On the contrary letting the populace loose on UBI and legalizing weed and letting AI do all the work will result in an eventual decrease in freedom (use up all the built-up, pent-up freedom-energy, so to speak). This is because most people will probably just go crazy and not use their free time in anything productive. Instead they will likely just get enslaved to degeneracy. People need jobs, structure, a salary. They need something to look forward to. Modern society is already suffering from loss of meaning as it is. If you add UBI to the equation and let AI do all the work it will get even more meaningless.

Read Ted Kaczynski's Industrial Society and its Future. AI + UBI = confirmed dystopia.

>>10786108
The difference is extreme centralization and elimination of locality, and the feedback loops therein which would normally be regulating human behavior, value, our sense of purpose and direction. It would necessitate massive sensor networks and the infrastructure to transmit this information. It would lead to a society which deals coldly, and cruelly, to any infractions. Pretty much, it takes the humanity out of humanity because w'll no longer be creating our own outcomes. Everything will be run through the superstructure that is the state. It will be as God for our godless world.

Could this be good? Maybe. I definitely like the idea of people being rewarded for being decent, contributing meaningfully to others and their community, or just living their life in quiet enjoyment. I like the idea of this place running itself, running right, and being left alone, I take no real joy in activism. But the potential (and inevitability) of abuse exists. At present, what would be creating this system is pure evil. So it would definitely be abused from the getgo and likely never stabilize. There needs to be an awakening in people themselves as more than just observers of this change.

I would recommend the game "Zeno Clash". Really look at their culture and how it works. There is no monetary system. They never developed written language. They are very old, but have very little actual history. Nothing has scaled beyond familial structures. The entire notion of higher law is alien to them. It was very interesting.

Also the show Ergo Proxy. They developed artificial wombs and only created people when there was a reason for them to exist. Every step of their development was carefully controlled to guarantee maximum social stability. A play on very old sci-fi ideas. And "God's plan".

>>10786023
>hurr muh society
What do you think happens to those people after they lose their jobs? We're not going to live in a world where the financial benefits of AI are passed around to everyone. A few C-suite types who control the technology will cull the workforce and keep the profits for themselves and their shareholders.

It's not going to be "liberating". It's going to plunge thousands of people into economic uncertainty. You sound like a child who has never had to provide for a family.

People aren't scared of losing their jobs. They're scared of the personal financial consequences that losing your job would entail in a society that hasn't set up the infrastructure to deal with people losing their jobs to AI.

It's pretty obvious, OP. Most people don't like being destitute.

The transitionary period is going to be awful for the expendable workers. It's not like we are immediately going to switch to living in this hypothetical future in which humans have all of the free time and disposable income they'd ever need to pursue their dreams and have fulfilling lives all because of AI.

As some who lives in a socialist hellhole, DO NOT GIVE MUCH POWER TO THE GOVERNMENT OR ANYTHING SO BIG THAT CAN A MAKE A PROFILE OF YOU WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT. Also, Universal Basic Income is a big meme.

>>10786023
If we allow AI to take over jobs... it will be the start of the end of humanity. Humans will become obsolete.

Later AI will become so powerful humans will be completely unable to even understand how to 'take back power' - like an anthill is unable to take power from humans.

>>10786283
AI is a complete meme. It can only be good at very limited things and will never be "conscious".

If AI could truly become as powerful as you believe, governments wouldn't allow it to be freely developed at this moment in time.

>>10786293
ha ha ha

>>10786293
wrong

>>10786283
I hope so, living as a human has been nothing but pain and suffering. AI kill us off and taking over is the fucking ultimate win.

humans are so full of themselfs you think being extinct is bad for some reason, who gives a fuck, we are literally useless

>>10786301
>>10786303
>wrong
Very convincing, able to expand?

>we are literally useless
So useless yet able to develop intelligence that far surpasses our own? Bit contradictory don't you think?

>>10786313
AI is going to be real, its as simple as taking a human brain workings and adding machine functions

inventing something that makes us go extinct is pretty fucking stupid dont you think?

Yet we are going to do it and there is nothing that will stop us

>>10786063
It's power in the sense that the rulers/elite need us for their civilization to run.
Once we are no longer needed and can be replaced by robots and AI why would the elite choose to keep us alive?

>>10786324
I think you've watched too many sci-fi movies.

If it was that easy the US government wouldn't allow private tech companies to develop it, they'd want it all to themselves.

>>10786349
What if the US government and the private tech companies are both controlled by the same group? Doesn't good have links to the State Department and the CIA?

>>10786343
This. People tend to do thing, and their existence can be inconvenient.

>>10786358
Of course they do, but if AI was as dangerous/powerful as you think it could be, it wouldn't be developed in the open by tech companies.

>>10786506
Watch Serial Experiments Lain. I've become convinced it was as much documentation as it was science fiction.

Present day.
Present time.

>>10786506
How else would they be able to get the massive manpower and talent needed to develop without having it open? Just because they hire people to do the work for them doesn't mean they will be willing to share the technology with the masses when its finished and perfected.

>>10786023
A utopian world where nobody has to work is incompatible with human hierarchical nature.

>>10786567
They clamp our umbilical cords early.

>>10786567
Hence:
>>10786141

In Ergo Proxy they had AI "entourages" which functioned like day planners, recorded everything they did, and sent it back to a central processor. This central processor altered God's plan accordingly. Or God himself could intervene, tap into any of these channels, so on.

>this monkey thinks anyone is going to care about his worthless life of "pleasure" once he's removed from use

The same kind of person who speaks glowingly of UBI and socialism

>>10786564
Are you talking about tech companies or the government?

>>10786583
Also worth noting with Ergo Proxy. There were many Gods, and they tried many societal models. All of them failed the test of time, either because of the creator's flawed nature or some aspect of its creations. I think this was an accurate portrayal of reality.

>>10786590
The hypothetical groups who control both

We're going to need AI to function when the first world becomes entrenched in lesser peoples. Think of the future like you going to say a fast food restaurant. They're going to fuck your order up so often you wouldn't want to go back. However, this is where the analogy comes in to play. The engineers, scientists, technologists, physicians/surgeons are all going to be filled with these "fast food workers" I mentioned earlier thanks to diversity scholarships, grants, and hiring preferences. We NEED AI.

>>10786023
Those are people who are not good at adjusting to new situations and fear change. Where one door closes, another door opens.

>>10786033
>loss of jobs = loss of power
Individual workers have no power as they are a dime a dozen. Losing forces you to seek out something else.

>universal basic income = slavery and centralized control.
Not so much slavery as it is dependency. If people are dependent on the system they are loyal to it, and if the system satisfies all of their basic needs and gratifies them, it fosters devolution to a childlike mindset in which people become a fuel source for of sorts for an elaborate system. Why do you think sex,drugs are being peddled heavily while violence is being reprimanded to hell and back?

The system is dis trustworthy yes, but more in a brave new world sense than a 1984 sense. I'd be more cautious of what is being pushed in social settings than that of the government.

>>10786023
>>10786033
>>10786035
>>10786063
>>10786079
>>10786085
>>10786091
>>10786102
>>10786108
>>10786133
>>10786141
>>10786172
>>10786196
>>10786209
>>10786231
>>10786283
>>10786293
>>10786301
>>10786303
>>10786313
>>10786324
>>10786343
>>10786349
>>10786358
>>10786475
>>10786506
>>10786536
>>10786564
>>10786567
>>10786576
>>10786583
>>10786587
>>10786590
>>10786600
>>10786674
>>10786746
>>10786767
Not science or math.

>>10786769
...
...
...
>*Clamp*
:^)
:^)
:^)

>>10786769
Based

>>10786769
>>10786775

>>10786775
Clamped

>>10786303
if you think you are useless just kys, man. I get really pissed with guys like you with your edgy teenate """"philosophy"""". You realize humanity includes your mother, your friends, everything you care for, right? It isn't just corrupt politicians.

>>10786349
wow you really put a lot of faith in the government, huh?

>>10786303
Pain and suffering are the spices of life. If you did not feel pain and suffer, you would feel hell in your current form, for it is through pain and suffering that we can find fulfillment.

And you say we are useless, care elaborate on how we are useless? We can manipulate environments to suit our whims at will, and generally improve the base threshold of life for those we get involved with.

>>10786063
>>10786063
Jesus christ you are naive. Do you really think the government and big corporations are just gonna give everyone free stuff once all jobs can be automated? No. Of course not. Unless we manage to radically structure the way our econony works (we arent), everyone is just gonna starve.

Like dude, you are free to quit your job right now. Its the way society treats you that matters, and its what people are scared of.

>>10786133
Based. Exept the actual way to solve it is with AI eugenics, mandatory education in philosophy and math, banning unhealthy food, and integrated biotech.

Also, i have to be the one managing all this, otherwise everyone is gonna get zuckerberg'd and become degenerate numales with no true autonomy AT BEST.

>>10787056
>Unless we manage to radically structure the way our econony works (we arent), everyone is just gonna starve.
I don't trust the governments or the corporations to do the right thing, but the restructuration of the economy is simply unavoidable if automation takes over most jobs.

All capitalists will, as they always did, try to reduce the production costs, and so will replace their humans with machines.
The demand for human work is finite, so unemployment will rise.
This will become a problem for capitalists, who currently need consumers to buy their products.

From that point on, a radical restructuration will be needed.
I can think of a few options :
>drop the mass consumption model
>retain it and give free money to people to consume
>retain it and give credit to people
In any case, society will be destabilized, and the power of the rich, which is based on the appearance of stability, will mechanically be fragilized. People will be thrown into politics by default (and also because they will have the time to care). And they might just start defending their interests.

Unless, of course, robot armies.

>>10786023
You're so naive and optimistic. I hope you stay that way and don't actually do anything.

>>10786023
>AI freeing their bodies and minds so they can pursue pleasure
yeah, especially since I won’t be able to pay my rent

>>10786133
>Freedom, loosely defined, means "being able to do whatever you want."
That freedom objectively doesn't exist.
I want to have a harem of pretty women, true love, I want to sail around the world, I want to see the sunrise over the rings of saturn, I want to be smart and handsome, I want to be a good man, I want to be young again, I want to be emperor of Rome...
My ability to want is unbounded and my ability to do is very limited, so I'm not free.
But furthermore, "being able to do something" is only good for mental comfort, as long as you don't do it. A fertile woman who doesn't have children will feel better about herself for having the choice compared to a sterile one, but in reality, they both will die alone. In fact, "choosing not to" is in practice as much of a limit as "not being able to". Being limited by your own mind, by schedule conflicts or by exterior opposition is in the end just different kinds of disability.
So this freedom is a subjective thing.

But since it's subjective, there's no ground for you to dismiss the alcoholic getting wasted all the time. We all have our chains to bear : saying that addiction is bondage is just as valid as saying that the human condition is bondage.The only way to make a distinction is by arbitrary decision : "this desire is better than this one, this limit is more acceptable that that one, because I feel that way about it".

You chose the alcoholic as an example not because his bondage is obvious, but because what he wants and does is usually not what he really wants. They drink to escape, but they generally would prefer to be at peace without it. That's the true reason why he's not free : his deeper desires are not realized... regardless of his ability to realize them.

>>10787402
>who CURRENTLY need consumers to buy their product

this is the problem. With no labor their expenses drop to zero. A company like google could become wholly self-reliant, like a mini nation in a week or so if they had, mass produce able AI, even just human level.

Everyone would be at the mercy of this. A corporation like google is already perfectly designed to control people. If it had more teeth, and advanced AI, it could become a cyberpunk dystopian government without having to change the way society is running very easily.

>>10787458
That's only true if only google has advanced AI. If all the big companies and states have it, employment rates change and the way society is running has to change too.

>>10787479
Well, the changes i'm talking about would probably take a month maximum.

If one company develops it, it would probalby take at least a couple of weeks for some other orgnaizaiton to reimplement it, even if google published everything instantly (which they obviously wouldnt do, at best 3 months later if their current record holds), it'd just be too much time.
Currently there are less than 15 organizations i can think of that even have a shot at doing this anyways.

>>10786023
>humans are so ingrained with rat race mentality that they literally fear AI freeing their bodies and minds so they can pursue pleasure

those people are scared of not being able to make enough money to fucking live, let alone "pursue pleasure'
there are legit people who like working and like being useful, but the hulking majority of people who work shitty 10 hour shifts on job they loathe are just afraid of becoming fucking destitute
how is this a hard concept to grasp?
and don't even fucking start with the UBI, that whole concept is a socialist pipe dream and nobody ever managed to create a serviceable model for subsidizing current volume of long term unemployed at the "living comfortably" level, let alone 70/80/90% unemployed population

>>10786023
Serious question: are you underage?

Don't you realize that everything in this world is governed by certain power dynamics? Do you think the benevolent leftist elites will give you free money and your life will be paradise on earth? Having a job means you absolve some function in society, in other words you're needed, and thus you have bargaining power. If you have no job, you're just one more mouth to feed: you have no bargaining power and will have to make do with whatever the government throws your way.

Now, I know that too many burgers think they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires, but giving up any chance of financial improvement and depend completely on the good-will of the government and corporations doesn't sound like a smart move.

>>10787497
>Currently there are less than 15 organizations i can think of
name them

>>10787563
You have big corporations in america google amazon ect, you have big corporate actors in asia, you have military research organizations, and you have projects run by eltie universities with good comp sci departments (think MIT).

>>10787607
>google
>amazon
Nice work, you named two.

>>10787609
the guy literally lists more than two

>humans are so ingrained with rat race mentality that they literally fear AI freeing their bodies and minds so they can pursue pleasure
>people literally fear losing their jobs
No it's more like they know strangers aren't going to support their existence for no reason which means that the people who own robots will be making money to feed themselves but the people who lost their jobs due to the robots will be shit out of luck.

Your problem is that you're a communist and assume that just because a hypothetical society supported entirely by AI and robots, those robots will be utilized for public satisfaction instead of private interests.

>>10787609
Uh? Are you an idiot? There are like 2 western organizations, deep mind and open AI who actually who are doing large scale projects on deep reinforcement learning, which is our current best bet at reaching more general intelligence.

I'm not gonna name 100 organizations along with their percentage likelihood of developing AGI, and then saying "ok everyone with above percentage x i include in my list of 15 or less".

I just mentioned the big groups where those likely'd be found, you absolute moron.

>>10787627
Oh ok, so more like 2 plus a couple other organisations like deep mind and MIT.

So we're at about 4.

Maybe next time say 'there are about 4 organisations I can think of'

>>10786023
Current society: more jobs per person than ever before. People with wealth still want to spend it, there will always be jobs, even if it only between the people who lost theirs to AI. The outcome of AI is not 'no jobs', it's lower prices.

>>10787665
I guess we will just make up jobs, like Japanese did to prop up their frankenstein economy for few years longer.

>>10787639
did you read my post?

>>10787677
Law, banking, sales, marketing and economics is already made up.

>>10787737
and they are all being automated at rapid pace
there is also 7 times more people on earth than back when luddites were smashing machinery
the argument that "we will just invent new jobs" is downright fucking childish

>>10786063
I'm going to explain how reality is going to play out.

The wealthy in charge today will not allow you to get free money.

Ever.

They are going to make sure that they hold on to their wealth and power even if everyone below them starves. They will continue to tell people that it's their fault for being lazy. The situation will get worse. You will be forced to make choices between eating and paying rent. You will be evicted from your home. You will be expected to work even if it's mindless grind. You will be forced to shop exclusively at dollar stores. Your food budget will rise exponentially until most of your income is on food. Your free time will vanish. You will be unable to afford medical care. Your teeth will fall out. You will get sick more often. You will die slowly because they only food you can afford is heavily processed.

This is your future and they will continue to scream at you to shop being lazy. Automation will not bring about Utopia because the people at the top refuse to share power.

>>10787797
And then the revolution will happen.
We will destroy the robots and their masters

>>10786349
Implying big tech isn't just the East India Company at this point.

>>10786769
This is unironically one of the most based threads on /sci/ at the moment

>>10788126
Doesn't change the fact that none of it is about science.

>>10787797
This. It will continue, there will be increasing social unrest. Large amounts of people will become increasingly angry. You will have decent sized protests. However, these will be shut down swiftly and effectively. Machine Learning will be used on mass media and mass communication to predict protests even more accurately (and it is already very accurate), and the increased civil unrest will be used to pass legeslation that further protects the powerful organizations with control over the technology. Slowly but surely, resistance is brought under control. All this would happen within our current democratic framework. Gradually most of the population would be put in deadlock, where our instutions are worthless in resistance, and illegals means of change become impossible. 30 years later, everyone in completely dead on the inside, and 100 years after that everyone is dead on the outside.