/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10739757
how do you know your name is your name?

>>10739768

>>10739757
>I often wonder: how dogs perceive the world around them, especially our human environment?

From a shorter height in monochrome with better hearing and smells.

>but what do they actually think when, for example, you call them by name? Are they self-conscious enough to know it is their name or they think it is a command meaning "you should come here"?

My dumbass untrained chihuahua can tell the difference between her name and a request to come here because I pat my knees or whatever location I want her to move to.

>>10739768
names are literally a social construct

>>10739768
There's a difference between recognizing a certain sound pattern and knowing it is YOU, yourself, your ego, call it whatever you want.

>>10739787
Sounds aren’t you. They refer to you.

>>10739757
>They are obviously conscious beings
No, they are instinctive things. Sort of like women and most men

>>10739789
>Edgy sexist thinks instinct and subjective experience cannot coexist

>>10739773
>in monochrome
dogs are dichromats

>>10739792
>subjective experience
>conscious
pick one. otherwise an ant is conscious.

>>10739801
>subjective experience
>conscious

Those are literally the same thing.

>otherwise an ant is conscious.

Yes they are. What’s your point?

>>10739807
Are you claiming that an ant is as conscious as you are?

>>10739817
>Are you claiming that an ant is as conscious as you are?

Of course they are. The only way to be “less” conscious is to be injured, very tired, under the influence of drugs, etc.

>>10739757
Imagine being retarded, imagine getting an impulsive thought and being unable to stop it, like you see food so you chase it down without hesitation or thinking ahead.

>>10739757

They have some basic pattern recognition and mostly react positively to things that will give them food.

Humans, especially dumber ones, like to ascribe godly superpowers to dogs such as having emotions just as complex as humans and shit like this, without noticing they are the peak case of pareidolia mixed with the clever Hans.

The fact that dogs can universally learn to obey commands in any country doesn't mean they are naturally gifted uber perceptive polyglots. It means they learn certain sound patterns and learn how to react to them to maximize getting food / nurture / belly rubs or whatever other good thing in return.

The average fucking bird can learn to discern the sound of a predator coming compared to a human coming to feed them. It's not rocket science.

They don't have a concept of identity akin to their names, there has never been a dog passing the mirror test, they just react to the sound pattern of something they have been called over and over and noticed they are rewarded if they pay attention once that sound is emitted. Maybe even further, emitted in their owner's voice.

Would be interesting to try getting robots or people with strong accets to get a reaction from a dog that hasn't met them before and compare it to placebo.

>>10739851
>Muh mirror test

Literally irrelevant pseudoscience. Ants can pass it but not most mammals.

>>10739824
Now I really wonder what it's like to be an ant.

>>10739824
Have you had any insightful conversations with ants lately?

>>10739857

Watch any fucking animal that passes the test reacting to their image.
Watch a dog.
I'm not claiming this test is is the most accurate shit ever created, but come the fuck on. Why are you coping so hard. Dogs can be cute and great friends, they just aren't smart.

>>10739824
First: How do being injured, very tired or being influence of drugs affect the ability to have subjective experiences? All of those sensations sounds highly subjective. Contradictory.

Second: Where do you draw the line for consciousness? Ants are conscious: ok. Are bacteria? Proteins? DNA?

Why dont you be one and find out?

>>10739889
Ants are too dumb to communicate with humans. Dunno what you’re trying to say.

>>10739898
Watch any fucking animal that passes the test reacting to their image.
Watch a dog.

Their ability to pass or fail is irrelevant to intelligence or self-awareness.

>I'm not claiming this test is is the most accurate shit ever created, but come the fuck on. Why are you coping so hard. Dogs can be cute and great friends, they just aren't smart.

I never said they were lol
I just said that the mirror test is useless pseudoscience when ants can pass it but not dogs.

>>10739757
I would like to know what dogs or cats dream about.
They make noises or move their legs so I think they actually dream. But what?

>>10739901
>First: How do being injured, very tired or being influence of drugs affect the ability to have subjective experiences?

Jesus Christ. Have you never heard of comas, anesthesia, fevers, or minimally conscious states? There are many conditions that can be inflicted on the body that seriously affect one’s degree of consciousness.

>All of those sensations sounds highly subjective. Contradictory

Nope.

>Second: Where do you draw the line for consciousness?

Brain or analog to brain.

>>10739931
Human are too dumb to find or implement the right way to communicate with ants.

>>10739951
We could probably do it but we’d need tiny ant robots that can emit all those weird pheromones they use and wiggle their antenna and shit. They convey a lot of information to eachother but don’t expect a poem.

>>10739938

Can you show some video of an ant passing the test? I'm very curious to see what the fuck you're talking about.

>>10739953
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/6025/a64f817d6ef770e88449d9c0dea1a7a1c952.pdf

>>10739960
Oh shit, I thought this was in Belgian and unTL

>>10739949
>There are many conditions that can be inflicted on the body that seriously affect one’s degree of consciousness.
Sounds like you're defining consciousness around "anything which isn't unconscious" (which I'd argue isn't really synonymous subjective experiences). Interesting take though. And per definition it isn't wrong.

Seems a very long way from here though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

>>10739945
>They make noises or move their legs so I think they actually dream. But what?

I don't know, but our family doggo barks in her dreams, and she never barks, only when strangers come to the house. So I always assume she has nightmares or something. When I pet her, she sleeps calmly on.

>>10739969
>Sounds like you're defining consciousness around "anything which isn't unconscious"

No.

>Seems a very long way from here though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness

“There are some brain states in which consciousness seems to be absent, including dreamless sleep, coma, and death. There are also a variety of circumstances that can change the relationship between the mind and the world in less drastic ways, producing what are known as altered states of consciousness. Some altered states occur naturally; others can be produced by drugs or brain damage. Altered states can be accompanied by changes in thinking, disturbances in the sense of time, feelings of loss of control, changes in emotional expression, alternations in body image and changes in meaning or significance.”

Quoting Wikipedia now

>>10739983
I haven't argued against your claim that unconsciousness of ones surroundings may be caused by drugs, sleep, death or coma.

Is pic related conscious? Unsure if it has a brain, but it clearly isn't necessary to be conscious of ones surroundings. What's the difference between being reactive and being conscious? All of this falls under subjective experiences.

>>10740010
>Is pic related conscious? Unsure if it has a brain,
but it clearly isn't necessary to be conscious of ones surroundings.

Venus flytraps aren’t “aware” of anything more than bots in video games are aware of where walls are. It’s just a Rube Goldberg device exploiting osmosis, like a lightswitch or mechanical lock. Stimulation of hairs triggers action potentials, which by some unknown mechanism involving osmosis cause the lobes to close shut.

https://legacy.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/articles/ICPS2002confp77_81.pdf

>What's the difference between being reactive and being conscious?

If the flytrap were to have a mind, the action potentials wouldn’t stop after this purely mechanistic “flipping of a switch”, and wouldn’t have started at that time either.

Let's explore... Dogs are conscious and self-aware beings hence they feel emotion and have the basic senses to interact with the world in general and Humans. Emotions and senses allow thought formation, and memory, having memory, emotions and senses means they can think aka understand and produce more intimate communication patterns aka links!

So using their senses they will most likely recognize words by pitch of the voice paired with observing as they are very good at that, so when you tell the dog come here the dog will understand you if it has trained memory! If you ask a person to come over and they don't speak your language you have to show them what you mean, train them!

Dogs are awesome, animals have this communicative potential if they are shown and trained! They can all think on a basic level! They dream, they wonder why and how!

>>10741510
>Dogs are awesome, animals have this communicative potential if they are shown and trained! They can all think on a basic level! They dream, they wonder why and how!

this

We don't deserve dogs, they are too good.

>>10739797
>dogs are dichromats

What does that even mean?

>>10742691
It means they have two types of cones in their eyes. We are trichromats with three, (some men are dichromats, due to a defective gene) birds are tetrachromats with four.