/sci/ - Science & Math

You can only study race if you're not white.

to study race you would first have to construct a meaningful definition of race

>>10740808
People from different parts of the earth tend to be physically different from one another and these differences are heritable.

>>10740744
We already study it even if only incidentally.
It's only controversial when the results disagree with progressive dogma. No they'll never accept the facts or stop calling everyone Nazis, but they'll get ignored more and more as our knowledge grows.

>>10740744
>inb4 things that dismiss my retarded bait thread

>>10742192
That’s not a definition of race, moron.

>>10740744
Race is, at the very least, determined by the DRD4 gene.
The 4 repeat variant, (the most common one) seems to make you want more or less nothing else than be like everyone else, whatever that happens to be.
The 2 repeat variant (common in Asians and a minority of Europeans) and 7 variants (common in Europeans and Amerindians) give you some kind of inborn morality, which are completely incompatible with each other.
Which means that 4s adapt to the predominant of the two (7/2), while the other one, gets ostracized if present. (like yakuza, triads, etc. formed by the 7r carriers in Asia)
4 is likely the original one, 2r is the civilized groups adopted to live in cities, while 7r is common (and advantageous) in nomads, and likely comes from the neanderthals, as there is no way it coudl evolve from the 4r one.

>>10740808
we study various species without a meaningful definition of species
inb4
>biological species concept
>phylogenetic species concept
>morphological species concept

>>10740744
Why would we study race instead of ethnic groups?

>>10742228
>inb4 things that prove me wrong lol

>>10742216
Are Japanese the same race as the Filipinos and Chinese? They're all yellow so they're the same race right?
That's really weird because Filipinos have more in common with Americans than they do with the Japanese.

>>10742229
there isn't a significant difference ethnic groups are just higher resolution, a race is basically just a set of ethnic groups that are genetically closer to others within that set than to ethnic groups outside that set.
we're talking about clustering within the space of all possible dna sequences of human beings where clusters fall in line with lineages and geographic proximity.

>>10742246
>Muh genetic clusters are race

Dead fairy tale.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4756148/

>>10742237
flips are actually more orange than yellow

>>10742224
yes it is

>>10742355
It's not
To prove this simply define a race scientifically and empirically
Any race

Deep learning engineer here. Anyone in our field could tell you race is real as far as clustering goes.

>>10743909
Genetic clusters=/=race

>>10743912
Moot point, they're correlated with race.

>>10743913
>Mathematical artifacts created by small amounts of geographical isolation in an otherwise clinal genetic variation are correlated with made-up social constructs

Fucking genius.

>>10743932
>Africans and Caucasians don't have different skin colors

>Are we ever going to be able to study race or will it always be too controversial?

We already do it's called haplogroup population genetics.

Or are you one of those retards who needs "race" to describe genetics because you're too much of a brainlet to memorize an assorted set of letters designated to regional sub-group within various populations?

Either universities take it up and thoroughly disprove it or the Supreme Court will be forced to decide on it. See the lawsuits by asians against schools for discriminating against them, eventually enough of these suits will happen where the Court will consolidate it all into one case to be considered. The Court will then be forced to either strike down all forms of affirmative action, or be forced to allow it based upon some sort of science. Until now that science has been behavioral studies demonstrating that segregated students tend to feel worse about themselves than others, but this science can also be challenged by confirmation bias and actual biology that can prove a plausible link between race and IQ. Keyword being "plausible" - the Court doesn't need full proof just enough to justify marking all black students as dumb and requiring special placement.

My point is that the actual science doesn't really matter here, but the ethical consequences. Scientists, universities and their financiers are afraid of being racist or being called racist so they don't allow discussion of it, forcing the matter to be bumped to lower quality academics who might be more subject to biases. Then when shit hits the fan and some authority (again the Supreme Court) has to consider the published science, the only science available is middling-quality which can lead to the consequences the original scientists wanted to avoid.

But in short: yes. Of course there are differences between races and this much is noted by any medical doctor when prescribing medicine or genetic treatments. But nobody can say it outside of individualized patient care without fear of being called a racist, even if the science is sound and useful.

>>10743935
I never said they didn’t. Why are you lying?

>>10744000
I'm lying because I'm a bad person. Jk, I'm not lying, just your reply was irrelevant because race is real, my last post just pointed out an obvious fact that can only be ascribed to the existence of race.

>>10744016
Why can't two races have the same skin color? Many Africans and Indians do in fact.

>>10742250
>It is important in race debate for researchers to distinguish between pragmatically useful and natural biological classifications. Just because we can identify continental ancestral membership computationally does not necessarily imply that race as defined by continental ancestry is meaningful in biological systematics and evolutionary classification. In fact, the genomic and statistical evidence currently available shows that phylogenetic and genetic similarity-based concepts of race fail to be applicable to humans even under minimal rational theoretical principles currently accepted in population genetics/genomics.
interesting

>>10744022
I didn't say that, and race doesn't imply that they can't. That's just a red herring.

>>10744041
I'm trying to follow your logic. You're saying a different skin color means a different race. There's a ton of variation in some regions though. North vs South Europe, India in general, East Asians vs Southeast Asians. Idk why you brought it up.

>>10744050
>You're saying a different skin color means a different race.
Not quite. Just, different skin color sometimes means a different race. I brought up skin color because it's the most obvious evidence that different races exist.

>>10743986
The west is currently in the state of latent homosexual. Everybody knows on some level there are differences, but everyone even better knows that thinking this is completely socially unacceptable and admiting having it would ruin your life.

>>10740808
high level genetic clustering in global human population

>>10740744
Please provide a comprehensive list of races that covers everyone.

>>10743932
>clines

only concerned with single genes

>haplogroups

>only concerned with a handful of genes

clusters corresponding to races do reliably how up when you analyze hundreds of genetic loci in hundreds of people, which is only possible in last decade due to cheap whole genome sequencing, get with the times, grandpa

>>10744352

>>10740744
>Are we ever going to be able to study race?
Are you aware of the climate we live today? Non blacks literally have to say "n-word" or they get kicked out of their school/job and shun socially. But remember if you are black you have a free pass for it, don't forget to discriminate whites too but never other races! We are all equal btw

>>10744357
>only concerned with single genes

Human genetic variation is clinal. Get over it, I guess.

>clusters corresponding to races do reliably how up when you analyze hundreds of genetic loci in hundreds of people

Citation needed.

>>10742231
fucking tard, the point is that those things don't prove me wrong because they don't effectively categorize species. If you had taken intro bio you would know this.

>>10744512
>fucking tard, the point is that those things don't prove me wrong because they don't effectively categorize species.

Prove it.

>If you had taken intro bio you would know this.

Prove it.

>>10740808
I would say that "races" in a sense can be defined as:

>The groups formed when the criteria selected is the shared occurrence of polymorphisms

This accounts for different levels of racial "consanguinity," as it were, as well as cross-breeds, paleogenomic groups, etc. Families would tend to be most "affine" in this respect, expanding outward to pools of shared polymorphic heritage.

This also allows for various types of distance analysis between clusters.

I'm not sure why this whole field is so controversial, though. Everyone knows intuitively that humans cluster into different groups which are usually apparent fairly quickly, if not immediately. But then again, I was raised in Taiwan.

>>10740744
The Chinese will do it if the West doesn't do it. The globohomo ideology is largely confined to the West.

>>10744588
China's communist party line is officially that "race" as such doesn't exist, it's a western tool, etc. This comes from the time of Mao, which was also when China codified its famous "56 ethnic groups." I'm not sure how much that does or does not influence actual Chinese academics, though.

>>10740808
There are 4 distinct sub groups that are very different from eachother. When you look closer they can be categorized even further.
The advent of global travel has stopped speciation in its tracks.

>>10745678
What are these 4 distinct groups?

>>10744434
citation is right in the linked pic you moron

>>10745678
there are no 4 distinct groups, there is only this structure
>>10744352

>>10744016
>can only be ascribed to the existence of race.
Go pick up a book, Cletus.

>>10745828
Mongoloid, negroid, caucasoid and australoid.
Pretty standard stuff. This was in encyclopedias when I was a kid

>colors cant exist because there is no exact defining line between each color

Australian aborigines not included here but they have their own distinct lineage after thousands of years of isolation. Very interesting people, humans frozen in time after walking out of African.

>>10742237
>Are Japanese the same race as Filipinos and Chinese?
Have you considered that maybe using those POCs' racial identity as a base rhetorical gambit is kinda a shitty thing to do?

>>10745860
Thanks. So if I'm a mix of Scottish, Maori, Norwegian, and trace amounts of anyone's guess which race am I?

>>10742192

>>10745938
You'd be a hybrid, and it would be difficult to find compatible transplant organs for you for that very reason.

>>10744394

>>10744394
>Non blacks literally have to say "n-word" or they get kicked out of their school/job and shun socially
Yeah, but the reason they have to do that is almost entirely white people.

>>10740808
Definition of anything has to be agreed upon to be useful.
Nobody wants to agree, so we can't get anywhere.
Hopefully someone is secretly researching all the politically controversial subjects using their own definitions.

>>10745955
They don't sound like very useful categories if it's so easy to fall outside them.

>>10745966
that would be china

>>10745849
>Thinks race isn't real
>Calls me stupid

>>10745970
>Those chemical structure diagrams don't seem very useful if you can just make new chemicals by mixing them together

The fuck?

>>10745938
I'm the guy you're replying too and I have pretty much the same blood lines as you. Decedents from Scotland, 1/16 Maori, blond hair and blue eyes. I'm a mongrel I guess but quite distinctly caucasian. Pretty run of the mill kiwi.
Just because people interbreed and share DNA doesn't mean these basic racial groups aren't real.

>>10745958
Brainlet.
>>10745963
True

there are basically three races, defind by a single gene, the DRD4 dopamine receptor, which determines behavior.

4 repeat variant - the original horticulturalists, hunters and gatherers. Very widespread, occurs across the globe.

7 repeats variant - raiders and nomads. Eat what you can, steal what you can, piss on what you cannot take. Take care for yourself, your horse, heard if you have any and your close family. Be self reliant, who needs help and need others to survive is weak, help each other against other people, but needing help is insulting. Poor ability in most things except outwitting others.

2r - civilized people. Highly cooperative, does not mind specializing, relying on others nor being relied upon. Avoids conflicts and values long term relationships. Innate aptitude for science and technology. Prefers to have as many friend as possible and relies on them to get things done.

7r and 2r are incompatible and see each other as evil, 2r 7r for their agression and unwillingness to cooperate, 7r2r see their cooperation as unfair and corrupt, and may mistakenly believe they are forced to cooperate by an outside force.

4/7 hybrids are common and alike the 7r, only less violent. 2r results in assortative mating, so their hybrids are rare.

>>10746007
Not suggesting there's no basis to those 4 broad groups, just that they're not that useful as categories if so many people don't fall neatly into them.

>>10745841
>citation is right in the linked pic you moron

No, you said “reliably show up”, so other researchers would have replicated these results and seen what Tishkoff generated.

So please share.

>>10745860
There is no “negroid”. It’s split into capoid and congoid. Your race science is extremely outdated.

>>10740744
>Are we ever going to be able to study race
>Posts image of DNA

Hey brainlet you can actually look into the research on this and find that race doesn't exist on a genetic level. Genetic variation within racial groups is on the same scale as genetic variation between racial groups, meaning you can't distinguish racial populations by genomics.

>inb4 someone posts a PCA plot they don't understand
Those groupings don't say what you think they say. They look at overall variance in the entire genome, not just characteristics related to race. Clusters can be formed by things like people in one geographic area having a SNP in the gene for an enzyme in the pancreas or something else like that.

The groupings are also hyper-local and don't work in a predictive fashion. People of the same race and heritage living in different countries typically don't cluster together.

If you want to talk about the origin of race, you need to be looking at the RNA/expression level at least, if not the proteomic level. Anyone trying to link genomics and race is basically signaling that they're an idiot.

>>10746198
>you can't distinguish racial populations by genomics
Absolute horse shit. You can spit in a tube and send it off and recieve a complete breakdown of your racial make up.

>>10746188
Negroids can be further divided into smaller groups, so what?
So can mongoloids and caucasoids.

>>10745630
chinese anthropologists believe in race

>>10746236
>Trusting Chinese science

>>10746226
None of those groups actually exist.

>>10746221
No you can’t. You can get an estimation of geographic origin, which is clinal in nature, not racial.

The entire reason race science died was the discovery that human variety was clinal rather than forming genuinely separate groups.

>>10746295
sure they don't.
when cops find DNA at a crime scene they determine the race of the suspect, they don't say "hey guys, we're looking for a person whose ancestors originated from this particular region"

>>10744352
this is literally a map of Japan

>>10745958
Rent free

>>10746598
>Yellowish skin

>>10744050
>>10744022
indians are mostly aasi, and in fact they have the same skin color(and similar facial features) of australoids

>>10742261
I guess I'm European even though I come from India.

>>10747411
Australians are South Indians anyway.

>>10746595
Yeah that's why cops are so bad their job. Instead of solving crimes they blame the crime on all the black people.

>>10746595
They could if the cops were able to distinguish different ethnicities. But cultural norms dictate how we define our social constructs. Any African could probably identify dozens of different African ethnicities.

>>10746198
No it is not you pedantic brainlet. >>10746188
There are probably at least 3-4 african races, north africans are distinct from even ME groups and central, east and southern africans.
>>10746295
that’s not what race means brainlet

>>10742261
Why the fuck is thai yellow when it's branching from orange?

>>10742261
>>10749098
Please tell me you guys are just trolling.
I'm not colorblind, right? That's clearly a more light brown color than anything approaching orange.

>>10749262
from right to left, I see:
grey, salmon, yellow, some sort of indescribable orange/brown/tan thing, poop

>>10749331
I bet you hate chocolate

>>10749400
none of those colors are dark enough to be chocolate