/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10715287
>calculus isnt useful
low quality bait

>>10715287
tell me how linear algebra is useful to my mcwagie job

>>10715287
If that was the case you couldn't take any kind of meaningful stats course your freshman year of college

>>10715287
Sounds like you're pissed you have to retake it. You should start hauling ass now instead of constantly retaking things and making excuses.

>>10715287
Based. Look at all the butthurt calculus babbys itt

>>10715296
Because satisfying the person who writes your future in the form of either a paycheck or a 'lookup table' skillset (read: textbook) is the REAL skill you students have to learn.

Your parents were ill-equipped to love or educate you, so you were thrown to 'education' and because it happens in private rooms away from the judgmental voices that hurt ya eho, ya'll start loving and naming each others farts.

If your only skill is to get people to lookup when they are outside, then welcome brother!

>>10715292
mcwagies aren't people

>>10715292
Oh you use calculus all the time in your mcwagie job?

Calculate the integral of d burger d fries?

Nobody uses calculus. I once heard a story from a boomer Lockheed Martin engineer that one time he used calculus after 30 years, everyone in his office crowded around in excitement.

You can use linear algebra to help with your finances and deal with your timetables in your personal life, something calculus won't help you with.

>>10715335
>nobody uses calculus

STOP you'll make him angry

>>10715305
>all you're doing is learning how to be productive in a way that's economically viable
no shit retard
>academia makes you free from judgement and you get your own hugbox
funny joke

>>10715348
What does the prince do when made angry

>>10715360
He attacks with the ruler (beacuse he's the prince)

>>10715287
You literally made Leibniz cry with your shit thread, I hope you are happy, OP. You literally did it this time.

>>10715364
OP here. It's fine. Because we live in the best of all possible worlds, Leibniz will understand.

>>10715364
OP is a fucking whore for this.
Leibniz is a fucking god...now I see how god must feel when he sees atheists.
>>10715367
Do us a favor and get a vasectomy. never have kids.
you are a horrible person.
>>10715360
he calls papa.

>>10715379
>OP is a fucking whore for this.
>Leibniz is a fucking god
>Do us a favor and get a vasectomy.
Brah no disrespect to Leibniz but you know I'm right. High schoolers are better served learning how to use words and make proofs than to integrate by parts and there isn't any denying it. Tell me i'm wrong niwa go ahead try it. You know it's true. You know I'm right. Leibniz himself would agree. Have you ever read anything written by him?

Again, no disrespect to the rightful inventor of calculus, none never intended.

But all you fags acting like learning how to take derivatives is worth shit, brah, you fuckers are dreaming. Nobody gives a fuck about caculus these days, it's all numerical shit that's memoryholed in software. Even engineers use FEM software. None of them actually integrates. All your students use wolfram alpha. Wake up, it's pansy shit for thots. Learn some real math before you get obsolete!

>>10715428
kill youself you engineer. you are literally worse than drug cartels.
I hope a faggot shove legos in your asshole

>>10715520
sounds like someone penis is small

This thread displays the highest level of discourse possible on /sci/

>>10715531
>intellectuals

>>10715529
nice arguement
sounds like someone cares about their penis length more than the importance of teaching such an elementary and foundational topic as calculus.
sorry it was too hard for you engii but maybe you should stop staring at your crotch because yes what you do can be replaced by computers and soon you wont have a job, but higher mathematics will still be around.
how does it feel being so pathetic but stuck in the delusion you are somehow superior than pure mathematicians and physicists?
A small pp is a minuscule issue (pun intended), people with small cocks still fuck, it is called being a sincere person and not a pretentious douche.
meanwhile, your smooth brain cannot be fixed, which explains your dependency on tools to make your job simple, while probably not understanding what they are really doing, built from the foundations of true intellectuals.
In fact your sentiment that people require a dependency on meme institutions is evidence of your falling acuity. There should not be high school, you mother should teach you to count and how to do basic arithmetic, then you are able do basic algebra, you should be able to do this by the age of five. and then be personally engaging in texts to develop you learning.
How are you over the age of 20 and not know QM?

>>10715310
My mom is a person

>>10715571
I was merely talking on his level, which required me to drop several IQ points. I believe that all STEM are equally as important for the betterment of society. For a person calling other people "pretentious douches" it is ironic as you expect the common STEM student to know the highly pretentious field your faggot ass works in. Do us all a favour and kill yourself.
Thanks

>>10715880
little engie is angry.
have fuck being pathetic and gay.
you'll never be as great as a pure mathematician nor a physicist.

But if we remove calculus from the highschool curriculum, how else are we gonna prevent the brainlets from getting into uni?

>>10715893
Depends on what you define as great, seeing on how much of a gimp you are Id say you enjoy your professors cum mojito very much. I myself take pride in the facts that my maths will see the light of day to be admired while I cant say the same for you and your unoriginal mind churning out formulas that the greats before you put forth. You cant sit there and call me pathetic while you are faggot incel with no future ahead of you. Fucking waste of oxygen

>>10715942
you know, it is really sad engie, that all the money you will acquire will never make you smarter.
also I am virgin by choice, I see no point in pursuing sex. Pure maths is ultimate you applied cunt.
why don't you apply my dick in you ass

>>10715942
I agree with you and even I can feel your butthurt, anon. Calm down.

>>10715287
Oh come on , it aint all useless.
We were taught calculus in high school in a very fun and thorough way. I gotta say its worth it to learn. Graphing curves cubic polynomial etc and seeing how it goes sure was fun plus the proofs for derivatives rules were pretty neat so i think anon u just got bad teachers.

>>10715946
>celibate by choice
>why don't you apply my dick in you ass
Fucking pure maths never thought you the rules of logic. My case is closed

>>10715958
why not just both and get rid of retarded shit like PE?

>>10715287
>but pseudo-intellectuals or PhDs
Aren't they the same shit?

>>10716038
basically niggers

>>10715287
your avgerage human has difficulty with fractions anon

>>10715335
>Need linear algebra to do your personal timetables

ok brainlet

>>10715287
Am I the only one who finds calculus mathematically interesting? The way the each degree of derivatives relate to a graph, the way the equation of a graph’s slope is calculated, etc.

>>10716917
how it is just the most simple for you can put two divisible parts into?
only retards would struggle.

>>10717971
fractions are easy. but please ignore whatever the fuck I tried to say here. I haven't slept for 48 hours and everything coming our my mouth/mind is retarded.

Calculus is easy as shit though, they should have people on cal2 leaving high school.

>>10717906
you can take a line and revolve that shit around an axis to find the goddamn volume of the object man, like what

>>10715310
My tendies are people though they are my only friends

>>10717971
>how it is just the most simple for you can put two divisible parts into?
lol wut

>>10715287
>and work on the mathematical maturity of the students.
YES
>Nobody needs to know calculus anyway.
NO

>>10715310
They are people, just lower strata.

>>10715287

46 replies
27 posters
0 posts giving examples of how calculus is useful for high school students.

Nice OP. You won.

>>10715292
Lets say you have a 3x3 matrix of patties each column of patties has a different time to be done you can then find out what time each patty column needs to be considered done through Gaussian jordan elimination.

>>10715287
But nobody is forcing high-schoolers to study calc tho? If they don't want to study STEM or econ i would agree but what if they do want to study a feild that requires calc?

they should really expose high school students to both algebra and calculus as they do and let them choose whether they want to continue focusing on calc in a sort of AP BC class / multivariable class or go to a linear algebra class where the first year is computational and the second is theoretical.
that way students who hate math get to pick a "lesser of two evils" and feel fine about it, while students who love math can do both and have an idea for whether they like analysis or algebra going into undergrad.

>>10719086
High school isn't useful for high school students. They should be put in employment camps and internships.

>>10719037
please see this >>10718003
my brain went full retard, I have no idea what I meant to say.

>>10715287
Calculus isn't useful? I don't think you belong on /sci/ but before you leave, how the fuck is "linear algebra immediately useful to literally everyone", do you mean basic algebra?

>>10715428
>High schoolers are better served learning how to use words and make proofs than to integrate by parts
A lot of people seem assblasted in this thread, but he has a point. The truth of it is that calculus simply isn't as important as it might have been in the past. Nowadays we have more computational power than we know what to do with, so problems seem to be solved by numerical methods rather than analytical ones. Of course there is the argument that we still need calculus to legitimize the numerical approximation (an approximation is not an approximation unless you know what you're trying to approximate, namely the exact result taht can be established only through analytical methods), but a very small number of people actually need to bother with that since most people use software as a tool rather than creating the software itself.

Also, the way calculus is taught in high school is questionable and far from rigorous. If the point of calculus is to create a theoretical framework (rather than just approximate results), what's the point in doing calculus half-assedly, in a way that only confuses students by obscuring the proofs of some major theorems?

>>10715287
imagine not taking linear algebra in highschool

>>10715287
They should be taught at the same time imo

>>10715287
Calculus wasn't a part of the curriculum at my highschool

The Autistic Mathematician's Immortal Loop

1. I must respond universally to any direct request for count/measurement of any expressible human-tongue describable statement. [From How Many Quantum Quarks Are Currently Spinning To How Many Orgasms Goddess Athena Has Had Now]
2. Any request for a repeat/repetition must be performed, even if a observer/speaker expresses indirect uncertainty on your ability to perform. Provision of the results is all that matters, for they will be correct regardless. If you must repeat
3. Points [1] and [2] are applicable ONLY if no other Autistic Mathematician is available, or if those aware of the Prime Immortal's existence have knowingly opted out of the request they recieved.
4. If all who know me have opted out, they are to instruct the 'request packet' verbally to, "Find The God Of Time."
5. The only way to become an Autistic Mathematician is if you worked your way to step [4] by repeating steps [1, 2, 3]
6. For an Autistic Mathematician to become an Immortal they must shake the God of Time's hand.
7. The Universe Began With A Secret Handshake Between Two Mathematicians.
8. God Of Time = Prime Immortal Mathematician
9. Identity = Evaluation ÷ Time

>>10715287

Good luck understanding space-time, then.

>>10720684
I'm right here. What ya want? Everyone keeps asking for me and I have no idea why. Do you just want me to have the magic power to make shit appear out of nowhere? Like a daylight santa?

>>10715287

I somewhat sympathize with OP, because desu the only legit motivation for basic calculus is physics.

For example, pic related motivates derivatives, integration, differential equations, and Leibnizian notation / infinitesimals, without anything more than basic algebra. The physics motivates everything, and it's beautiful.

Anyway, for those of you who didn't attend high school at Caltech, here's what you missed out on: https://youtu.be/szCChCc58dg?t=84

>>10720709

n.b., click the link on that video rather than embedding it to skip the insomnia-curing 80's CGI intro.

>>10720709
Why has nobody developed calculus (calculitical?) grammar for language? Limits approaching infinity is the same as wasting a communicator's time.

>>10715287
I think, honestly, kids would be more open to calculus is they took some sort of intro to logic or proofs course prior to or concurrently with calculus.

I was a fucking idiot in high school and I had no idea what math really was. I just memorized everything without really grasping any of the concepts until I delved into the proof based courses. Now I’m a faggot grad student who posts on /sci/.

>>10720723
You mean the dude that solved the P = NP sort algorithm into separate rotations per list object?

Cool. Been waiting to bump into ya.

>publish

>>10720634
The schizo Mathematician's Immortal Loop
1.Say some incomprehensible shit
2.repeat

example:see linked post

My high school only taught calculus to the "enriched" kids that skipped math classes in middle school.

>>10721423
Type some shit.
>Get Slapped.

calculus is the most useless idiotic thing you can learn

not one sane person with an above average iq thinks that calculus is useful

>>10721511
Dubs Confirmed.

>>10721511
checked

>Never even did limits in secondary school maths class

I did brainlet maths, lads

>>10721535
Never even learned that words come before numbers.

>>10715287
No.

https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf

>>10715287
Calculus more like shitulus amirite

>>10721563
If that is the collective opinion, why post? Let Calculus Die.

>>10721551

Indeed. From Jean Dieudonne's Foundations of Modern Analysis:

>...the fundamental idea of calculus [is] the ""local“ approximation of functions
>by linear functions. In the classical teaching of Calculus, this idea is immediately
>obscured by the accidental fact that, on a one‐dimensional vector space, there is a
>one‐to‐one correspondence between linear forms and numbers, and therefore the
>derivative at a point is defined as a number instead of a linear form. This slavish
>subservience to the shibboleth of numerical interpretation at any cost becomes
>much worse when dealing with functions of several variables...

So OP was right when he suggested that linear algebra was more fundamental than the "calculus" he is presumably being taught in HS.

>>10715287
it isn't hard though and there's a lot of problems it's applicable to, if you want to learn linear algebra do it on your own

>>10715287
"Calculus" is trivial and we did it in HS.

>>10715287
agreed

Public school should be abolished.

>>10715287
Agreed

>>10721984
Where can I learn more about this?

>>10725507
>Where can I learn more about this?

https://mathinsight.org/approximating_nonlinear_function_by_linear

Play with the applet a little bit (midway down the page), and look at the limits on that page about the slope of the secant line giving you arbitrary approximations of the tangent line. THAT is the geometric meaning of the derivative. It just so happens that in one dimension, the slope of the line is a number! Not so in multiple dimensions, though: for example, for functions on 2-dimensional domains (i.e., two variables, x and y), the derivative is going to be a tangent plane, rather than a line. And the slope of a plane is not a number, so if you only learned to interpret derivatives numerically, you're conceptually fucked.

So... if you then want to understand what Dieudonné was alluding in my quote when he warned against this, pay a visit to chapter 3 of based Loomis & Sternberg (pic related). You can even download the whole book as a PDF, directly from Shlomo's website: http://www.math.harvard.edu/~shlomo/docs/Advanced_Calculus.pdf (there's also a hardcover print edition of this amazing book (I own one myself), available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/ADVANCED-CALCULUS-REVISED-HAROLD-LOOMIS/dp/9814583936))

In fact, if you're game to learn the linear algebra first, then chapters 1 & 2 will give you a superb introduction to the subject, starting with vectors in chapter 1 and covering finite-dimensional vector spaces in chapter 2. Then, as pic related explains, this enables you to develop multivariable calculus in chapter 3, without falling victim to the pitfall of "slavish subservience to the shibboleth of numerical interpretation" that Dieudonné warned about when I quoted him above.

(Btw, although Loomis & Sternberg's book is about multivariable calculus, they also include a review of single-variable calculus in the beginning of chapter 3, before moving on to using linear algebra to develop multivariable calculus.)

>>10725895
>https://mathinsight.org/approximating_nonlinear_function_by_linear

Corresponding page for multivariable differentiation: https://mathinsight.org/differentiability_multivariable_definition

(In particular, it shows the importance of understanding linear algebra!)

>>10725895

(Did you see this, desu?)

>>10715287
I like the way you think. But don't be such a cunt. Both linear and calc should be taught in high school

>>10725895
>>10725902
This sounds very neat. Thanks to the links and the book chapters, anon.

>>10715287
Abstract algebra is worthless, give me one good application other than cryptography.

>>10726869
>give me one good application
Linear algebra

>>10726871
Linear algebra existed before abstract algebra. You don't need to know isomorphisms and ring properties to work with vectors.

>>10726878
You do need to know their properties, you just don't know their names. Teaching the properties but not their names and the deeper theory behind them is something only an inhuman savage would do

>>10726893
Yes, I guess Euclid & Friends were complete savages, those dirty geometers. Or how ancient astronomers talked about 'measurements', not 'isomorphisms between the Earth and the extraterrestrial euclid spaces'.

>>10726898
They had the excuse of ignorance. You don't

I agree with op, although calculus should still be taught. Focusing on linear algebra opens the paths to quantum mechanics, fem, machine learning and all that stuff that's actually important right now.

I'd only add statistics and stochastic.

>>10726903
I do, I'm an applied mathematician aka programmer. I care about languages, normal forms, logic, analysis. I can turn an abstract algorithm into a correctly functioning, virtually steaming machine without the tools of abstract algebra. All this can be defined by way of abstract algebra, but I would rather not waste my time.

>>10715310
Based and rape pilled.

>>10715379
>Leibniz is a fucking god
Lel no.
>I see how god must feel when he sees atheists
Nothing because he isn't real choflmao
>Do us a favor and get a vasectomy. never have kids. you are a horrible person.

To the guy he is responding to here go JBWmaxxing in SE asia and impregnate a fuckload of noodlewhore foids.