/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10652321
>Hahaha see this Hydrogen atom on earth, there is a non-zero probability that the electron is in alpha-centauri right now!
Who are you quoting?
>what an I missing?
Quantum Mechanics 1

>>10652323
He is not wrong though, that electron could be found fuck out somewhere with impossibly small odds.

>>10652363

Can you explain to me how that works? Like some alien is in alpha centauri trying to measure the position of an electron and he captures one that just happens to be from earth?

Is that a thing?

>>10652394
There are a few technical points to be made. One is that a particle cannot be found in a location that is not energetically allowed, so the potential energy at the final location can't be higher than initial kinetic + potential energy unless energy is injected into the system.
Another is that tunneling cannot occur faster than light. In order for a particle to tunnel somewhere upon measurement, it must already have had a nonzero probability of being there, which takes at minimum the time for light to travel there.

>>10652321
>tiny inanimate objects can calculate probabilities and then coordinate with each other to align perfectly with those probabilities

Nice fanfiction bro. Modern physics is a joke.

> Hydrogen atom on earth, there is a non-zero probability that the electron is in alpha-centauri right now!
Not true. It's bound. If it's a free election then what >>10652412 says applies.

>>10652434
Prove it.

>>10652321
It took me 3 seconds to see what's wrong

>>10652434
>nature performs calculations
"No"

>>10652446
>Prove it.
That's what physics says. If something behaves probabilistically, there are usually "hidden variables" behind them that if you knew about, you could more accurately predict the outcome. For example, cards are random because the shuffling is designed to be that way. If you knew the parameters of the shuffling, you would know the order of the deck. But physicists "proved" that there are no hidden variables so physicists are literally telling you that particles all have calculators and coordinate with each other to align in certain ways.

This is top retardation. I am getting Italian school of Algebraic Geometry vibes.

>>10652463
>That's what physics says
Physics doesn't say particles perform calculations. Physics is about making calculations to predict things. Nature merely behaves as it does.

>>10652468
If there are no hidden variables then where do the probabilities come from, retardo?

>>10652469
The model

>>10652472
That's not an argument, Retardo. Physicists argue that regardless of the model, quantum physics is inherently probabilistically. In other words, they tell you that any deterministic model would be incorrect (which they "proved" by their autistic hidden variable "experiment"). So this is model independent, I'm sure you have no idea what any of this even means, but I'm asking you to at least try to get your second neuron involved in this conversation so we may make some progress.

>>10652463
>so physicists are literally telling you that particles all have calculators and coordinate with each other to align in certain ways
It's not telling you that at all. You've completely misunderstood Bell's theorem but that doesn't surprise me.

>>10652469
Probabilities don't require hidden variables.

>>10652321
The probability is almost as small as the chance that OP isnt a retard

>>10652463
>But physicists "proved" that there are no hidden variables
leaving aside the logical impossibility of proving a negative, the proof that there were no hidden variables only applied to local hidden variables - but a while after the Copenhagen conference it was proven that non-local hidden variables could have causal effects.

The basic foundation of the Copenhagen interpretation - that hidden variables can't be affecting the particles - has been known to be wrong for decades, and yet physicists still cling to it because anyone who seriously challenges it gets called a dumbass for trying to reintroduce macroscopic physics into the quantum scale, because 'lol it doesn't have to make sense, free your mind retard'.

>>10652469
QM is (usually interpreted as) stochastic. This means there is no set of hidden variables that determines the outcomes of the system. No hidden variables are necessary for a system to be described by probabilities. We're just used to using probabilities to model systems which do have hidden variables, like weather and genetics.
It's impossible to definitively prove that any hypothetical system is stochastic, but one can infer that it is by a lack of evidence for determining variables.

>>10652495
They "don't" according to physicists, but they do according to mathematicians. Probabilistic models are literally used when you don't know everything about the system, and the whole concept of conditional probability is the idea that the more you know about the system, the better your probabilities will align with the actual outcome.

All of the probability theory is about making estimates about what you don't know but could know. If you had a certain stock and you could read the minds of every trader to see all the trades they want to execute, you could perfectly predict the stock price for the next second simply by replicating the action on the orderbook.

>>10652516
>leaving aside the logical impossibility of proving a negative
It was proven a long time ago that you can't trisect an angle. A negative. So right off the bat, I know you are retarded.

Isn't there some serious theory that there is only one electron in the entire universe?

>>10652560
Yes. There's a theory with that supposition but almost no one agrees with it.

>>10652544
That's just not true though. There are a number of fundamental interpretations of probability, some of which don't involve incomplete knowledge of determined systems.

>>10652560
There is a theory about everything because physicists get paid to have retarded ideas. If you are a physicist and in a year you don't manage to write down some retarded bullshit then you are kicked out because that is what makes money. There are ignorant retards that believe "SAYENZ GUD" and will just hand out money to people who apply, so physicists apply with everything they can possibly think off and then when 1 of their retarded ideas gets picked for a grant then that's it, that's the new theory they'll push for the next year because now that's their source of income.

It's a horrible horrible system.

>>10652575
Are you high or just off your medication?

>>10652321
>USA is the only country in the world with a space program

>>10652574
>There are a number of fundamental interpretations of probability
Yes, in the abstract probability distributions are entities on their own that don't require an explanation, but in the real world probability distributions are just used to see what a real-world process aligns to so we can make estimates.

What physicists are implying is that abstract probability distributions exist in the universe, not caused by ANY mechanism at all, which in other words means that particles have calculators, which was my original observation. Abstract probability distributions are not a thing in the real world, just like abstract real numbers are not a thing in the real world. What this proves to me is that some theoretical physicist made an algebra mistake 50 years ago in some now forgotten paper and then everything after him is just bullshit that has lead to this.

>>10652583
I'm high on knowing how academia works. If you want money you apply for grants. But who applies for grants? Anyone! And you are encouraged by more senior academics to always write down everything, package it neatly, and send it to the various funds that hand out grants. The goal of this is to have at least one of those retarded ideas (that have no evidence due to you having no funding yet) get picked by chance by some fund so that you get paid real money and can now eat for another year. But then what do you do? If you go back to the NSF or whoever the fuck and tell them "OOPS! My theory didn't work haha it was all bullshit sorry. Thank you for the money, can you give me more for my next idea?" they'll tell you to fuck off because they keep score. That means you are incentivized to push ANYTHING, even if it is completely retarded unless you want to be blacklisted.

>>10652588
It in no way implies particles have calculators, that's retarded. Mathematics is used to model reality, that doesn't mean nature actually calculates things. You are asserting that the real world must be deterministic, which is an assumption based on classical physics, which is incredibly inaccurate at the level of experimental accuracy we have today.

>>10652588
> What physicists are implying is that abstract probability distributions exist in the universe
They aren't implying. They've proven it.

> not caused by ANY mechanism at all
The Copenhagen interpretation would explain it by saying that's simply how reality is. The Many-World interpretation does provided a mechanism which is one reason why a lot of well regarded physicists believe in it.

> What this proves to me is that some theoretical physicist made an algebra mistake 50 years ago in some now forgotten paper and then everything after him is just bullshit that has lead to this.
Which means you have zero understanding of QM or how it was created. Thanks for confirming your opinion is worthless.

>>10652606
If no force (hidden variable) is acting on particles to behave that way, but particles behave that way, how do particles know how to behave?

>>10652607
>They aren't implying. They've proven it.
Yes, I've said, they've "proven" it. Note that you can also prove that 1=2 if you assume 0=1.

>The Copenhagen interpretation would explain it by saying that's simply how reality is.
>that's simply how reality is

Damn, who knew, physics was solved 3000 years ago when the greeks wrote down "that's how reality is". Given that you've accepted it, we'll start dismantling all physics departments by next tuesday. You should start looking for a real job.

>>10652607
>Which means you have zero understanding of QM or how it was created. Thanks for confirming your opinion is worthless.

I am getting Italian school of Algebraic Geometry vibes.

>>10652550
that's an ontological proof. Physics works with empirical data, and any "proof" that it comes up with, no matter how good the maths, can never be considered a proof in the mathematical sense because it's based on an empirically determined system.

>>10652615
>you can also prove that 1=2 if you assume 0=1.
>>>/x/ here, come join us.

>>10652617
Well, I now agree that you can't prove a negative because I can't prove you are not retarded.

>>10652615
>If no force (hidden variable) is acting on particles to behave that way, but particles behave that way, how do particles know how to behave?
In classical physics, how do masses know how to calculate forces and accelerate according to them? Oh wait, they don't. We just model the reality with calculations.
Particles appear to follow the Schrodinger Equation (at least in the nonrelativistic limit). Randomness doesn't mean they can just do absolutely anything.

>>10652623
As much as I would like to visit a board full of physicists, I get enough of that in my day to day life so I'll hold back for now but thanks for the invitation.

>>10652628
>In classical physics, how do masses know how to calculate forces and accelerate according to them? Oh wait, they don't. We just model the reality with calculations.
Except this is a deterministic system you complete fucking retard and there's nothing hidden about it.

>>10652615

You know what, I'm getting tired so here's all I'll say. SCREENCAP THIS POST FOR THE NEAR FUTURE WHEN QM AS WE KNOW IT GETS DESTROYED:

I AM GETTING ITALIAN SCHOOL OF ALGEBRAIC GEOMETRY VIBES

>>10652560
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dqtW9MslFk

>>10652633
Holy shit you're thick, I'm making an analogy to explain that particles don't have to actually calculate anything. Your assumption that stochastic systems cannot truly exist is just that, an assumption.

>>10652321
The reason for copenhagen interpretation is not to think about it. Thinking about it breaks the whole immersion. Copenhagen is also called "don't think, just work out the math" interpretation.

If you take copenhagen seriously, its wonky. Alternative and also mathematicatically intuitive understanding is the many world interpretation. Electrons aren't just in every place in this single universe, but rather every atom is in one place in one universe but with multiple universes, every other atoms are in every other places. The problem this presents is how do we know we're in certain universe and not other.

There are others but those are not too relevant today.

>>10652657
>not to think about it
>"don't think, just work out the math"

Well, I can't judge. Math was basically like this for like 3000 years and only really stopped in the 20th century. I'm excited for physics in 4019, will be fun to actually know how qm works.

https://brilliantlightpower.com/book-download-and-streaming/

I'll just leave this here

threads like these are just calls for the stupid. and they pull 'em in everytime

>>10652985
show me one thread on all of 4chan that isn't utterly retarded

Friendly reminder that Plato was right.

>>10652321
The probability clouds aren’t that big.

>>10652321
I would figure what is wrong with this pic faster than I did if I didnt asume its just flatard anti nasa pic.

>>10652448
yea, theres no floating text in space.

>>10652624
just admit you got assblasted.

>>10653969
damn.. missed that..