/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10633424
>those poll choices
Confirm autism.

>random

>>10633461
Yeah random. Isn't that what most evolutionists believe?

>>10633498
Me having a will to eat and sleep and reproduce and create things is not random. Same with every living thing, and honestly everything in the universe has a will

>>10633503
Are you saying all 100 trillion cells in my body have a will of their own?
Anyways it's the creation of new information through mutation that's random. Not the experience of the living things.

>>10633450
Lay off boomer. i'm only 1x years old

>>10633424
by men you mean (((men))) right?

>>10633424
>Filename: meme+orcas+wolves.jpg
>No wolves in the picture at all
wut?

>>10633515
Yes everything in the universe has a will. Reality is just a force willing itself via the laws of physics. It's not an accident that an Apple falls from a tree, or the earth rotates, or an organism uses its toolkit the best it can

>>10633519
>>10633450
What was wrong with the poll anyways?

>>10633524
>Willing itself via the laws of physics
Explain that one

>>10633524
So you believe in Panpsychism?

>>10633527
theres no way to disagree, its true apriori, no definition of reality cannot necessitate some identity that can be explained in terms of laws
>>10633532
No, consciousness and will are different, but conscious urges of will (social and biological) are manifested in conscious beings. The will to get a gf is no different then the will for a ball to "want" to roll down a hill. It is a playing though of reality.
My main point is there is no reason to call it random, any more than a ball falling or a magnet repeling is random. Its ultimately the universes will, and there is no unaccounted, displaced phenomenon at all

>>10633575
blahhhh. Ok so the laws of the universe just fundamental truths. But what do you think about determinism vs indeterminism?

>>10633595
>fundamental truths
nope, they are abstract models that we use to describe to ourselves how the universe is willing and behaving. truth is a complete isomorphic perfect mapping between what is going on and what is said to be going on in terms of a model. This cannot exist because it must be articulated by an intelligence that existences within reality.

also the laws of the universe itself evolve via the reality-will i am talking about, for example, space-time used to not exist, there used to be only three fundamental forces etc. Abstractly, evolution with respect to the universal identity's will is an eternal law and is simply most visible in biology because it is more relatable
>determinism vs indeterminism
self in the sense that it is commonly understood is determined of course, we are intellectual functions that have been animated by the will i am talking about, but the identity of the universe/reality has free will and is completely unconstrained because if it was constrained, a redefinition of reality would be warranted to include the essence of the constraint.

>>10633521
They're hiding to kill the dear later.

>>10633611
Dude whatever. So you believe the universe had a beginning and before the beginning, there existed three fundamental forces. Well where did that come from? And what "will" are you talking about?

>>10633638
there used to be three fundamental forces, this is scientific fact. There are now four: gravity, weak, strong, electromagnetic.
At energies extremely high like that seen at the beginning of the universe, there was the electro-weak force. the universe (all of space and time) had a beginning, but reality is defined as everything including the universe, the laws, the information, cognition, and consciousness. The forces that desrcibe how space and time behave came from the will of the reality identity. This is the will im talking about, there simply must be some force/will/drive for existence to happen. I am pointing this out and explaining the properties of this will

>>10633657
Is this "will/force" personal? Is this "reality identity" a being or more like a function? Btw I don't buy anything you're saying. It's just entertaining.

>>10633677
I dont know what you mean by personal in this context. the will is everything you see around you, including conscious awareness, and objects "out there". Scientific theory is observation of the will, not the will in itself, but a gross approximation and useful characterization of the will. The reality identity is similar to a function,yes, and is what simply has to exist: a self willing identity that governs everything. No other option makes sense because you always have to define causal properties (well what causes that????). At the bottom of reality, which is defined as literally everything, there is necessarily a "will-from-nothing".

also, You do buy what Im saying though, theres no other option, any word view you articulate is explained with this model, except this theory is more general, complete and rigorous. Any theory that reaches farther and more general then this leaves the scope of logic.

>>10633703
By personal, I mean it wants a connection with us. It interferes with human affairs in such ways we cant understand. It seeks good and grants his "children" or his agents a blessing. And are you saying this "god" doesn't have choice? A free-will? Sounds arrogant

>>10633718
Using the word "it" is misleading because "it" is literally everything: space and time and more. like i was saying earlier, there is no difference between the identity, living things and non living things in terms of ontology. The universal identity IS humankind, aswell as everything else. It is existence. I dont beleive Good exists in the judeo christian sense, but of course i didnt create the reality i am in so that could change at any time or place.
Lastly, my point was "we" dont have free will because we are localized finite instances of this identity. The universal will that created everything does have free will though, and by definition must have created itself from unbound and unconstrained potential or else the universe would not exist.

>>10633734
Thanks for your insight. Appreciated greatly

>>10633498
>Evolutuonists

You’ve revealed you are an idiot.

>>10633752
I don't know what to believe ! I just say evolutionists because I see evolution and theism as incompatible

>>10633759
Obviously evolution exists but it's the idea that we evolved form bacteria billions of years ago

>>10633424
this is the funniest fuck thing I've ever seen, well done anon

>>10633759
That’s a dumb thing to think. You can believe in magical gods and acknowledge evolution at the same time. You confuse brainlet YEC with theism in general.

>>10633765
Eukaryotes are archaea with symbiotic bacteria, not just “bacteria”.

>>10633773
>YEC
That's my position philosophically. I haven't digested it fully so I won't defend it. But if there's a God, I believe, it must be the God of the Bible. Otherwise, he'd be irrelevant.

>>10633525
Evolution isn't just random mutation. Should've left out the word random. A tiny list of things you've forgotten:
Selective breeding
Horizontal gene transfer
Environmental pressures

wtf, where the hell is the post about dogs I was just looking at?

>>10633773
>That’s a dumb thing to think
If God were real, why would he leave his children with no rulebook on how to live life? Or it's history?
>>10633790
I wish my computer wasn't recently destroyed. Otherwise, I'd have a response to that. It is random mutation tho

>>10633789
I wouldn’t call Ba’al Hammon, Ra, Zeus, Shiva, Ahura Mazda, Thor, or Nergal irrelevant. They’d still be powerful entities with influence over the afterlife if they existed.

>>10633800
>If God were real, why would he leave his children with no rulebook on how to live life? Or it's history?

Maybe the God/gods/Goddess/Goddesses/Things are apathetic, malevolent, or unaware of our existence. Maybe they’re dead or now otherwise absent. Maybe they did leave a rulebook but it’s been forgotten and their religion destroyed by the advance of false ones.

>>10633424
Evolution isn’t illogical at a principle level, but it just doesn’t have enough evidence for me to be convinced. I don’t faith that the Bombardier Beetle somehow evolved the ability to release two separate chemicals to mix outside of its body and damage its enemies. It’s hard to believe that birds figured out how to make nests, or that aquatic creatures were able to come on land (and for what purpose?), or that bacteria evolved into fish, or that life can spring from non-life (never been replicated). There are just too many gaps in our knowledge of evolution for me to believe in it. It’s easy to say that long amounts of time leads to large changes in an organism, but this is just a cop-out because no one fully understands how all organisms evolved

>>10633815
thank
>>10633809
>>10633802
Well then they're just irrelevant aholes then. But "Yahweh" isn't irrelevant

>>10633815
>Evolution isn’t illogical at a principle level, but it just doesn’t have enough evidence for me to be convinced.

Evolution is trivial to observe, so you’re only admitting dishonesty.

> I don’t faith that the Bombardier Beetle somehow evolved the ability to release two separate chemicals to mix outside of its body and damage its enemies.

https://ncse.com/cej/2/1/bombardier-beetle-myth-exploded

Then you’re an idiot.

>It’s hard to believe that birds figured out how to make nests

Doesn’t matter if you find it “hard to believe”.

>or that aquatic creatures were able to come on land

Doesn’t matter if you find it “hard to believe”.

>(and for what purpose?)

Escape predators, access new food sources, move between bodies of water, lay eggs, etc.

>or that bacteria evolved into fish

Doesn’t matter if you find it “hard to believe”.

>or that life can spring from non-life (never been replicated).

Doesn’t matter if you find it hard to believe.

>There are just too many gaps in our knowledge of evolution for me to believe in it.

Lack of knowledge about evolution is not lack of knowledge that it exists, and it does because all observations indicate so. Maybe there are just gaps in your brain.

>It’s easy to say that long amounts of time leads to large changes in an organism

Wrong. Organisms have no obligation to change, and likely will not if they reach a stable peak of fitness.

>but this is just a cop-out because no one fully understands how all organisms evolved

We don’t need to know how everything evolved to know that things evolved, dumb retard.

I find it hard to believe that you’re this stupid, so I believe that you are actually lying and fully believe in evolution.

>>10633828
No deity is “irrelevant” if it were to actually exist. They’re literal gods.
Yahweh is just a Canaanite weather god, and only likes Jews, so you’re out of luck if you want to suck his cock unless you’re a Jew yourself.

>>10633838
This post is so stupid but I would say yeah if this "god" has no interest in manifesting itself, it's irrelevant

>>10633838
In the beginning (time)
God created the Heaven (space)
and the Earth (matter)

No religion is as prophesied as Christianity is. No religion is harder to fake than Christianity. The Bible says that the Earth hangs on nothing (space) (Job 26:7) and that there are paths in the seas (Psalm 8 (this was how ocean currents were discovered)), and that blood is the source of life (Leviticus 17:11). Now you can say “but the Bible also says x ridiculous thing that hasn’t been proven.” Maybe, but what has been absolutely disproven?

Muhammad could easily fake Islam. Gautama could easily claim to be enlightened. If you were tasked with faking a religion, and making people believe, would you want to fake Christianity over any other religion? It is simply superior to all the rest.

>>10633832
an unnecessarily hostile comment. I see no reason to have faith in evolution when it isn’t a completely proven theory. There is a lot of evidence for it, but that doesn’t mean I have to stake my life on it. I’m not the type to assume that I or any scientist knows for sure what has occurred on this planet for millions of years. I recognize the limits of human reason.

>>10633848
“Yahweh” doesn’t manifest itself either, dumbass.

>>10633855
Sorry, not into scams from thousands of years ago.

>In the beginning (time)
God created the Heaven (space)
and the Earth (matter)

In the beginning, Apsu and Tiamat were all that was. From their intermingling, Lahmu and Lahamu were born. So on and so forth.

>No religion is as prophecied as Christianity is

Jesus fails to meet the Messianic prophecy of Judaism entirely, so no.

>No religion is harder to fake than Christianity.

>Steal body
>Hide it
>Say it magically disappeared
>...
>Profit/prophet

>The Bible says that the Earth hangs on nothing (space)

Space isn’t nothing, so God sounds pretty retarded.

>and that there are paths in the sea

Who cares? Funny coincidence, irrelevant in comparison to the Bible claiming the earth was flooded by so much water that the amount of H2O on earth would have to be more than doubled to achieve the claimed depth.

“this was how ocean currents were discovered”

Wrong. Ocean currents were discovered by observing them.

>and that blood is the source of life

You die when it all leaves, so that’s obvious.

>Now you can say “but the Bible also says x ridiculous thing that hasn’t been proven.” Maybe, but what has been absolutely disproven?

Great Flood. Humans being created from some mud. Animals being magically zapped into being.

>Muhammad could easily fake Islam.

Faking Islam would actually be more difficult than faking Christianity, because Muhammad was a genuine conquerer who united Arabia whereas Jeebus was some irrelevant Jewish dwarf who has no contemporary evidence whatsoever.

>Gautama could easily claim to be enlightened.

Irrelevant.

>If you were tasked with faking a religion, and making people believe, would you want to fake Christianity over any other religion?

Yes, actually. I’d fake Mormonism in particular.

>It is simply superior to all the rest.

It’s wrong, so, uh, no.

>>10633913
>reddit spacing
>snarky arguments with no substance
just go back already

>>10633865
>an unnecessarily hostile comment.

Put broken glass in your penis.

> I see no reason to have faith in evolution

You can observe evolution on human timescales without difficulty, so you’re further confirming your dishonesty.

>when it isn’t a completely proven theory.

Not a theory. It’s a phenomenon, one that is easy to confirm the existence of.

>There is a lot of evidence for it

Like the fact that you can observe it occur?

>but that doesn’t mean I have to stake my life on it.

Meaningless.

>I’m not the type to assume that I or any scientist knows for sure what has occurred on this planet for millions of years.

Irrelevant to evolution. No one claims to know for sure what occurred.

> I recognize the limits of human reason

Your reasoning in particular is VERY limited.

>>10633926
>Hur dur Reddit spacing

Aw, no argument. Bye!

>>10633929
>Put broken glass in your penis.
Why is this attitude so common among leftists, atheists, and redditors? It’s almost as if they’re possessed by demons or something. And they seemingly think that antagonizing others will somehow help persuade others of their beliefs. Even this post will likely be answered by some snarky, emotional comment.

>>10633938
Why are you unable to defend your position with an actual argument?

>>10633945
My position is that evolution isn’t confirmed. Life from non-life can’t be replicated, and every stage of evolution has not been explained. Just because mutations occur or natural selection occurs does not mean that the overarching theory of evolution is true. Most of your comments are not even arguments, and hardly worth replying to. You seem to think that the more you post, the better your arguments. Your posts aren’t very convincing and show a very clear bias and bad credibility

>>10633956
>My position is that evolution isn’t confirmed.

It is.
http://myxo.css.msu.edu/ecoli/
You can stop posting now.

>>10633956
“Life from non-life can’t be replicated”

Irrelevant to evolution. Evolution occurs regardless of how life begins to exist.

“and every stage of evolution has not been explained”

Evolution doesn’t have “stages”, and there is no need to explain your imagined “stages” to know evolution exists.

>Just because mutations occur or natural selection occurs does not mean that the overarching theory of evolution is true.

Mutations and selection pressures acting on populations over time is literally all evolution is. You have admitted defeat.

>Your posts aren’t very convincing and show a very clear bias and bad credibility

Don’t care about convincing you. You’re a retard and it’s funny to call you one.

>>10633970
That’s just evidence of variance and natural selection. Take all humans and force them to stay in the sun for half the day for their whole lives, and only the darkest humans will survive. That doesn’t prove that all organisms evolved over millions of years

>>10633993
>That’s just evidence of variance and natural selection.

A population changing in genetic makeup over time due to selection pressures and mutations is evolution.
Thanks for admitting evolution exists.

>Take all humans and force them to stay in the sun for half the day for their whole lives, and only the darkest humans will survive.

That’s evolution.

>That doesn’t prove that all organisms evolved over millions of years

Organisms have existed for millions of years, so they have been evolving for millions of years. How old do you think Earth is, faggot?

>>10634002
>How old do you think Earth is, faggot?
Roughly 6,000

>>10634005
>Roughly 6000
K bye faggot

>>10634005
>Organisms
It's acktually 60 Billion years old.

>>10634011
why the homophobia?

>>10634011
>don’t have faith in God! Believe in a meaningless world as I do
No thanks

>>10634025
>This makes my fee-fees feel good so I believe it

K little guy. Go back to your fantasy land if it makes you happy.

>>10634037
haha I will. You can join anytime

>>10634041
Sorry, I prefer reals to feels.

>>10634045
Reason’s last step is the recognition that there are infinite things beyond it. Your beliefs ultimately rest on faith. I just apply my faith to something meaningful.

>>10634065
>Reason’s last step is the recognition that there are infinite things beyond it.

Meaningless.

>>10634025
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moralistic_fallacy

>>10634065
>Your beliefs ultimately rest on faith.

Sorry, no.

>I just apply my faith to something meaningful.

Nothing “meaningful” about religion. It’s just fairy tales humans made up because they were afraid of the dark. Make sure to shove that glass nice and deep inside so you bleed to death and get to meet your fake god.

>>10634077
>Sorry, no.
Uh, yes they do. You have faith that the universe is consistent and that you are capabale of understanding its truths. All of science could be a lie, and we could be controlled by 5th dimensional aliens. You might be programmed to believe in your own reason, when it could all be false. This is nothing new in philosophy.

>Nothing “meaningful” about religion
Sorry, no.

>>10634077
>Nothing “meaningful” about religion
>”meaningful”
>””
Atheists are all alike

>>10634088
>Uh, yes they do.

Nope.

>u have faith that the universe is consistent

Nope. All observational Evidence suggests no ability of the forces of the universe to change.

>and that you are capabale of understanding its truths.

Don’t believe that.

>All of science could be a lie

Prove the existence of a conspiracy involving millions. I eagerly await.

>and we could be controlled by 5th dimensional aliens.

Interesting schizophrenic conception. Where’s the observational evidence? If it’s unfalsifiable and unverifiable, it’s invalid.

>You might be programmed to believe in your own reason, when it could all be false.

See above.

>Sorry, no.

Sorry, no. Making things up isn’t meaningful.

>>10634110
If there were ever a time when you realized that what you previously thought was wrong, then you should always be wary of what you currently believe. The fact that some do not learn from their own proud misunderstandings in the past, going on in life as if they know the answers, is a bit unnerving.
>Making things up isn’t meaningful.
There goes all literature, poetry, film, gaming, etc. You can’t prove that Christianity was made up, yet you claim it is.

>>10634128
>If there were ever a time when you realized that what you previously thought was wrong, then you should always be wary of what you currently believe.

I eagerly await the presentation of observational evidence that overturns any currently held belief you think I have.

>The fact that some do not learn from their own proud misunderstandings in the past, going on in life as if they know the answers, is a bit unnerving.

Yeah, that’s religion for you. Believe this dusty old book.

>There goes all literature, poetry, film, gaming, etc.

Yep. All human artwork consists of nothing more than attempts to induce pleasant sensations. It is meaningful only in the sense hedonism could be called “meaningful”. This applies even to sensations we’d consider typically unpleasant like fear or pain. They are desired in some contexts and situations.

>You can’t prove that Christianity was made up, yet you claim it is.

Christianity claims that things that are apparently physically impossible occurred, and the evidence for this is contradictory storybooks written after the supposed events happened.
This is a disproof within the limits of my epistemology. If it isn’t in yours, then belief in Urgaboogleslurg the Eater of Gas Giants is just as valid as Christianity.

>>10634159
>Yeah, that’s religion for you.
Along with everything else.
>It is meaningful only in the sense hedonism could be called “meaningful”.
Is anything meaningful?
>belief in Urgaboogleslurg the Eater of Gas Giants is just as valid as Christianity.
Christianity is the most reasonable religion >>10633855
but it should not be fully reasonable. I boast that my God cannot be fully understood. He is God! We are not equal to Him and never will be. If everything made sense to us, then we would be filled with pride and ignorance of the true state of our nature.

>>10634177
>Is anything meaningful?

Not in the sense you intend. Any proposed “goal” of “purpose” of life will be self-constructed or gotten from someone else. A universe with God is just as meaningless as this one, only with a dictator.

>Christianity is the most reasonable religion

No it isn’t. Geology disproved a global flood ages ago. Religions can’t be “reasonable” since they all require belief without evidence, so the best you could hope for is one that doesn’t necessarily conflict with anything.

>but it should not be fully reasonable.

Uh.....huh.

> I boast that my God cannot be fully understood. He is God! We are not equal to Him and never will be. If everything made sense to us, then we would be filled with pride and ignorance of the true state of our nature.

My God’s name is Slurp and he’s bigger and stronger. He killed Yahweh by hitting him with a shoe, so says the sacred texts.

>>10633790
>things you've forgotten
I think you mean things that he never knew.

>>10633800
>If God were real, why would he leave his children with no rulebook on how to live life? Or it's history?
Maybe it just doesn't give a shit.
>It is random mutation tho
Random mutations tested by their ability to thrive in their given environment by a very non-random reality, sure. The result is that beneficial mutations thrive while the opposite do not.
>>10633828
>But "Yahweh" isn't irrelevant
He is if he doesn't exist. The idea that he would be relevant if he existed means nothing.

>>10633855
>The Bible says that the Earth hangs on nothing
Not true. If anything, it "hangs" from the sun, held in orbit by the force of gravity.
>there are paths in the seas
No reason to believe that ancient humans didn't already know about water currents before the Bible was written.
>blood is the source of life
This statement is very vague. If taken to mean that it sustains life, this could easily have been known by ancient humans just by watching someone bleed to death.
>what has been absolutely disproven
Not our job to disprove something before it's been proven in the first place.
>It is simply superior to all the rest
You likely believe this because it was the first religion fully introduced to you. You would believe otherwise had any other religion been your first.

>>10633926
If you're the Christcuck, you have some gall to tell anyone that's hitting you with the reality of your religion on /sci/ to leave the board. You're the odd one out here, bud. Why don't you go back to church already?

>>10633938
>Why is this attitude so common among leftists, atheists, and redditors?
It's common among any group of people that have to deal with the hoops theists jump through to justify the lack of consistent logic in their beliefs.
>It’s almost as if they’re possessed by demons or something
For example, you seem to legitimately believe in fucking "demons", like you're some kind of child afraid of the dark. It's insanity.

>>10633976

>>10634025
Why do you need the idea of a god to find meaning in life? Do you not have friends, family, or a community that you belong to? None of those things require delusion.

>>10634177
>Christianity is the most reasonable religion
You would literally be saying the same thing about Osiris and Ra if you had been born in Ancient Egypt.

>>10633424
>from a single cell organism
I fucking hate it when SJWs flee from discussion under the pretext of "it's more complicated than that", but godfuckingdammit this is a prime example when that saying is appropriate. aeons were spent on the transition from organic soup to isolated cell.

>>10634005
>Roughly 6,000
narrated Ahmad ibn Hanbal: Abd-ullah ibn 'Umar said once: the Antichrist will dwell among the 'umma for forty, but I don't know if it's forty days, months or years.

>>10633759
>because I see evolution and theism as incompatible

Then you needtoreadPhilsophy and Theology more: Go to /lit/ or/his/
Theism and evolution are demonstrably compatable.

>>10634005
>>10635542
>tfw your words are wasted on the idiots

FUCK JANNIES