/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10624876
At the very best schools, the deciding factor is actually
>are you of the right social circle?
followed by
>are you a legit prodigy?

There are so many 4.0 autists applying to these places that it basically comes down to cronyism in most cases.

>>10624876

you dont need good grades to get into these schools, you need to be original so the reputation of the school can profit
just having lots of 4.0 GPA people does not increase the reputation of the school but it makes sure you don't have actual retards attending

You have to be a mega mind AND original.

>>10624876
>>10624891
Social circles is the most important. Note that professors that advise you are considered part of this. If your professor knows people at MIT, you're chances of getting into MIT are much higher.

Also keep in mind that good grades are not enough. Most universities have terrible standards for their undergraduate programs. If you want any chance you'll need to take some graduate courses early on, and under supervision apply that stuff in research. For example, taking quantum field theory so you can do more serious research in physics.

Even with all this you aren't guaranteed a spot. So many people apply to these schools every year that there may dozens of students with similar qualifications. In that case it just comes down to luck.

>>10624876
Ted Kaczynski was accepted into the graduate programs of these schools and he had a 3.12 undergraduate GPA

>>10624876
Entering those schools is, no joke, harder for a Masters degree or PhD than for Undergrad.
At least as an undergrad you could fill your application with bullshit and study for AMC/AIME and you had a (almost) secured spot.

Luck competing with the dozens of 4.0 that are now trying to get into Masters.

>>10624876
stop idolizing these schools

>>10624876
Publish a paper in undergrad and have a 3.8 GPA, should gauruarantee a school with clout.

>>10625066
But he was a super genius with 160 iq

>>10625066
Yeah, before that was in an era before grade inflation.

>>10625284
this, good recs, and >90 percentile subject gre.

>>10624876
>>10625216
>t. brainlet masters student
Everyone knows Masters degrees are cashcows

>>10625216
Masters are literally pay to enter brainlet

>>10624876
I have a very low undergrad GPA (sub 3.0). Worked in ML for a number of years now and I want to go back for a MSc/PhD. I've been told that it is nearly impossible for me to get into a top program because my grades were shit and there are so many people competing for spots these days.
HOWEVER
I happen to have a family friend who was a very distinguished member of the math department at Harvard & MIT and I've been talking to him a lot. He's been out of academia for a while now but how can I leverage this to my advantage?

>>10625284
>Publish a paper in undergrad
People actually do this?

>>10625425

> asking NEETs for advice when you could ask your friend
> sub 3.0

and they say GPA doesn't correlate with intelligence lol

>>10624876
just be black

>>10625445
I basically know what to do but it's always good to get a second opinion. That's what message boards are for.

>>10625429
I published in HS

>>10625425

>>10625585
Keep that kind of stuff on /b/, /r9k/ or /pol/ please. This is a place for scientific discussion.

>>10625592

>>10625066
he was 16

>>10625585
That’s not me bitch

>>10625425
Fuck you, nepotism is the bane of academia

>>10625284
>Publish a paper in undergrad
how?
tips & tricks?

>>10625623
do research and find something significant enough to write about

>>10625612
this, and yes that is you opie

>>10625623
If you're in the US, get involved in an REU (Research Experience for Undergraduates). Univerisities all across the US have REU programs that often times are federally funded and the easiest way for people to get involved in research as an undergraduate.

Or just talk to a professor where you did well in their class and ask if they need an extra hand in their lab with their research. You need to express initiative. No one will hand you an undergraduate paper.

>>10625490
I'm in HS, and I'm thinking about trying to publish a epidemiology machine learning paper. Was it really worth the cash?

What was your paper about?

>>10625594
Not when he applied for grad school

>Be me
>2.7 GPA
>270 GRE
>Stanford Computer Engineering

>>10626222
>Be black*

>>10625313
this, having 4.0 is almost meme-tier at this point

>>10626222
are you black?

Most of my friends at Oxbridge/ICL/KCL in England are academic autists.
Still, I know a >grill who got into UCL for a Master’s degree with an insufficient GPA because of connections.
It certainly helps to have relatives who went to the school you’re applying to in the US, as the two person I know who went to Harvard had relatives who went there as well.

>>10626222
>>10626354
>>10625451
>>10625429
Fuck me /sci/ Im currently taking a gap year after my undergrad and furiously completing online AI courses from these institutions in the hopes they accept me. Every single day after work I’ve been wasting my time learning shit I’m going to learn at the State school that accepts me anyways (god I hope they accept me)

I shouldn’t have even played. The game was rigged from the start

>>10625623
Get involved in research early, and choose a group that is pushing out papers

getting a paper in undergrad takes a lot of things that are out of your control. The more important thing is a genuine aptitude and interest for research that a letter writer will write about.

>>10625425
>I have a very low undergrad GPA (sub 3.0).
major GPA good? upward trend in grades? these usually matter more

>>10626372

>>10625429
I published on my first year, as an assistant but still

>You have to know a guy to get into these schools
How do we break the system then?

>>10626372
I really didn't want to discourage you.
If you went to a non-meme uni, got a high GPA, relevant work experience and a good reference, then I'm sure you'll get accepted to at least one top-tier uni.

>>10626516
Th-thanks anon. I will do my best to build a strong application >>10626461

>>10625066
No...he was accepted to Michigan...a big difference from Stanford or MIT

Just a far warning, don't get a masters before applying to any phd program. You will literally be considered too old.

>>10626697
What if I get my master's at 22?

>>10626771
I'll tell you what UT told me when I applied to their math program with a masters at age 22
"Literally go fuck yourself"

>>10626697
>considered too old
Why?

>>10626786
>>10626780
ignore him, he's just placing blame externally. I got accepted to a program at 26. He was just a shit applicant no doubt.

>>10626697
I guess I'm going to sound stupid here but I thought the usual progression was
>bachelor's then master's then Phd
but you're saying
bachelors directly to Phd is possible???
not just possible but prefered?

>>10626798
its actually preferred at least in Mathematics. In these programs, you typically do earn your master's 1/2 way through, however you typically find it in your mailbox after you passed all your prelims

>>10626798
obviously, the mere fact of having got into a direct PhD program and failing is worth more than
>bachelor's then master's then Phd
is for talentless losers that shouldn't be in academia but can pay to play

>>10624876

4.0 and research experience doesn't even begin to cut it for these schools. That will get you into a solid public uni. 4.0 and a few high impact publications maybe, and it doesn't hurt if your parents attended.

>>10625425
>I happen to have a family friend who was a very distinguished member of the math department at Harvard & MIT and I've been talking to him a lot. He's been out of academia for a while now but how can I leverage this to my advantage?
yes, this will help. more than it should

I do not know how it works for experimental and/or "soft" sciences, but for theoretical physics (think high energy theory, strings, cosmology) and pure math, it's quite hard to get into the schools at the very top. Namely, Princeton, Harvard, UChicago, MIT, Berkely, Stanford, and Columbia.

This one guy did a "sort of" survey and looked at where Harvard PhD math students went to school for college and here's the list of around 45 kids.
Domestic:

MIT 9
Stanford 4
Princeton 3
Caltech 2
Columbia 2
University of Chicago 2
Notre Dame 1
University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign 1
University of Washington 1

International:
Cambridge [UK] 5
University of Toronto [Canada] 3
Chennai Mathematical Institute [India] 1
ETH Zurich [Switzerland] 1
Jacobs University [Germany] 1
McGill [Canada] 1
National Taiwan University [Taiwan] 1
Sharif University of Technology [Iran] 1
Taida Institute for Mathematical Sciences [Taiwan] 1
Tsinghua University [China] 1
University of Moscow [Russia] 1
University of Pisa [Italy] 1


As you can see, virtually all of them come from schools of comparable prestige. It's similar for other schools, probably worse for Princeton Math. So, if you're not a super-smart kid from a super-good school, just imagine the odds against you; you have to be a literal unicorn.

>>10627448

Contd.

In summary, here's what you need to get in:

0. Your intelligence is at top 1% (0.1%?) in your age group studying your particular subject area.
1. You have to do your college in good school
2. [For math/theoretical physics] Do a ton of graduate level math/physics. For example, do you know why Princeton does not do qualifying exams? Have you seen the pacing and content of UChicago's first-year course sequence for Math PhD's? What "normal" schools expect you to learn in first one or two years in their PhD program is usually taken as assumed knowledge-level for their entering students at these schools.
3. Forget research. Virtually no undergraduate can do actual reserach in pure math/theoretical physics. REU's are fun but no one really cares. For instance, read [2] and the comments if you don't believe me.
4. Instead of 3, focus on reading math so much that you reach near or at the edge of contemporary reserach in some specific area. That's why do reading courses in advanced topics and write expository papers. Write as much as you can and make it available somewhere. They will not be original but they will at least show that you can actually read and understand math at a very high level. Note that even at very competitive Masters program (think Perimeter's or intense pure math masters of canadian universities), the students write expository papers, not research papers.
5. Have well-known and well-respected people write glowing letters for you highlighting your excellent research potential.
6. Write a technically sound, well-pointed, and non-trivial research statement. For example, MIT says it's the most important thing for your Math PhD application. I suppose you really need to have some idea on your research direction.

>>10627487

(Contd.)

Stuff like good grades in standard upper level math courses (analysis, algebra, topo/geometry), a decent college GPA (3.5+) and competitve subject GRE score (~85% and above) are things you need before the faculty even read your application.

[1]- https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/296e60/universities_attended_by_math_phd_students_at/

[2]- https://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/45476/what-are-mathematics-graduate-schools-looking-for

>>10627493
so, I should just kill myself

>>10625623
I'm trying to get my name on a paper by helping write it during an internship.

>>10627448
>>10627487
>>10627493
Most of those work for most majors to some degree.
Nice. So it seems like I'm on a good track. Speaking of which, I know a senior on my track team who went to MIT for grad in chemistry a year ago.

>>10625627
>do research
>Never find something significant enough to write about
please let me die

>>10624876
For a Stanford masters it's half decent GPA (I think most programs want a 3.7ish, they're pretty flexible), money for tuition, some kind of background in what you're doing, decent GRE. Having good experience and good references beats is more important than anything else, except the money.

>>10627487
>Have you seen the pacing and content of UChicago's first-year course sequence for Math PhD's?
Doesn't look too bad desu https://math.uchicago.edu/graduate/first-year-courses/

>>10625066
It was a different time in academia

I'm a senior in Aerospace engineering heading to Purdue for my PhD. My friend got into MIT funded for a masters; near 4.0 GPA, double majored in CS, two summer research experiences, three years of undergrad research and one first author. He did get rejected from Stanford however.

>>10625277
\thread

>>10625429
Yup.

>>10627487
>REU's are fun
>REU
???
what's that?

>>10627487
>don't do any research because I say that no undergrads can actually do it
>but make sure your research statement is real good so MIT takes you seriously
>also get recs from your professors saying you can do research

this is all really terrible advice

>>10624876
Give this a try if you think you are a """"

>>10627448
>https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/296e60/universities_attended_by_math_phd_students_at/

Waterloo [Canada] 4
CalTech 4
Harvard 4
Cambridge [UK] 3
Oxford [UK] 1

>>10627786
This.

>>10625429
>>10626394
>>10625284
Big difference between first and co author. Getting co-authorship on a paper really isnt hard. Just find a lab and do a little project that supports someone eles's work. First author is much harder (though this depends on field of course).

>>10628517
rectal entry urination

>>10628538
"Research Potential" is the key word, mate.

>>10626798
Depends on the location. Bachelor -> Masters -> PhD is the standard in EU, bachelor -> PhD is the norm in US. This is mostly just a difference in terminology, as the age you (nominally) start the PhD in both systems is roughly the same.

aside from generic "dont have brainlet GPA" and "get strong rec letters", heres some glow in the dark knowledge:
- go into a field with professors that are well funded. professors are involved in student selection for phds, and a part of how many students people take is based on funding.
- example 1 in EE: know students who get rejected from signal processing because its a poorly funded field right now, but students from "where the fuck" get into more well funded subfields.
- example 2: easier to get in CS for machine learning than it is for math or philosophy (simply due to # of available spots)
- race doesnt really matter (little to no "affirmative action" during phd admissions at elite schools). for undergrad race matters more because "admissions committees" are commanded to create diversity for school PR. these undergrad admission committee people have no invested interest in getting students who actually succeed. complete contrast in PhD: PROFESSORS are the admissions committee, and they literally PAY you their own money. if they admit some unqualified black kid they are wasting 100ks of extremely precious funding for a "muh diversity" statement. do u really think professors do this? (answer: they don't). phds in STEM are 99% white, chinese, indian.
- however, race/gender helps getting fellowships (specifically NSF). so if u got a reparations fellowship, professors may be interested in taking u in part because ur free labor

undergrad school is obviously useful but NOT a game changer. know people from stanford that got rejected from mit, but people from "where the fuck" get in. much of the benefit in coming from an elite undergrad school is just that the professors are well known in the field so strong rec letters from them hold extra weight during admissions.

>>10624876
I like how your definition of a "full blown academic autist" is just someone who does the minimum amount of work for 100% completion. If youre in school you dont have an excuse for not having a 4.0 gpa, put in some fucking effort. If you actually are interested in what you study, you apply to research opportunities.

Its not hard to get into elite schools if you arent a complete retard and have thoughts and interests in your life that you can express beyond your undergrad and whatever other retarded shit the majority of young 20s kids think.

t. colombia phd grad, my x factor was being canadian and being well read

>>10625425
>He's been out of academia for a while now but how can I leverage this to my advantage?
No, not at all. Ivy schools cracked down HARD on soft nepotism towards the turn of the century.

>>10626372
>The game was rigged from the start
How did it take you until 22 to figure this out?

>academia
CS fag here, I tried this for some time, it was retarded. Got my masters (MSc) and I'm gonna be working at a FAANG now, building my career, and enjoying my life instead of slaving away at a circlejerk award (phd)

>>10630171
>FAANG
Only pajeets and trannies

>>10625277
why?

>>10627448

Columbia physics grad student here. Ask me anything.

>>10630354
Since I'll never get into columbia, what is the most efficient way to neck myself?

>>10630278
Academia in America has not been merit based for several decades

>>10629692
American PhD students get a Master’s after a year

>>10626340
>>10626349
Being black hasn't helped me one bit getting into any school.

>>10628986
which is literally only measurable by seeing how someone performs in a research setting

you can get A's on all your tests and still have jack-all for research acumen

>being "accepted" into a school to learn free information.

Remind me why we do this again?

>>10630720
this thread is about graduate studies, brainlet

doing a PhD is about doing research, not taking classes

>>10630720
it's not what you learn, it's the fact you were accepted to the program. That's how this game works, frend. That's why recruiters, employers all view job candidates primarily by their school.

>>10630746
Yes, but you're still acquiring information. Why do you need to go to university to do that? Funding? Okay maybe? If it's mathematics though I can do that in the woods.


>>10630748
Basically my point. School has nothing to do with learning. It's all "brand" names. SAD

>>10630498

>acquire razor wire
>form noose with said wire, place around neck
>super glue hands to side of head
>jump off a tall box or chair
>razor wire decapitates you while hands still glued to head
>people who find your corpse think you ripped your own head off
>posthumous glory and lulz

Most of those people who go there are just cocksuckers, if you were really that smart you would be doing something more profitable than being a grad student

>>10630778
Thanks based Columbia PHD student

>>10626697
Wrong.

>>10630763
Lmfao, you won't be able to acquire new information from studying books in the life sciences. You need the infrastructure and equipment necessary to do experiments to discover this new information.

Thats not happening in your make-shift lab in your garage either.

If you are concerned about paying tuition, most PhDs pay you stipend/tuition to be a student there.

>>10630844
This. I never understood someone being this passionate about research, especially because 99% of academic research never leads to anything profitable and the 1% that does gets licensed by the university to some business and all the actual researchers get is academic recognition and their name on a paper.
There are so many highly intelligent people doing research at elite institutions who commute by bicycle, live in some smelly shoebox and can't even afford a decent suit. I see it as wasted potential desu. Turbo autism.
The prestige of being in one of those elite schools exists at undergrad level, and maybe at masters. But PhD? Nigger wtf you doing with your life, if you got accepted into a PhD at goddamn MIT, there will be dozens of tech employers willing to take you in with a six figure paycheck go make some money you dumb nigger you're being used!

>>10630354
I'm a Columbia undergrad physics major, are you my TA? Are you the dude who went to Harvard for undergrad, feel like that'd be the one most likely to browse this shithole?

In Pupin rn haha

>>10632730
>Pupin
what's that?

>>10630763
>Yes, but you're still acquiring information. Why do you need to go to university to do that? Funding? Okay maybe? If it's mathematics though I can do that in the woods.

Training, equipment, and peers to collaborate with.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jun/03/cambridge-colleges-poor-record-on-diversity-highlighted-by-report
Some Cambridge University colleges have admitted no black students or have accepted as few as one a year between 2012 and 2016, according to newly obtained figures.
Ameribros, why don't you follow suit?

If your name is Piper, you: have huge chip on shoulder, get into the Princeton math PhD program with a degree in fucking French, take nearly a decade to complete, are in your 30s during this time, get a Fields medalist advisor, and get PhD with a trivial thesis on "Funky Sums" cribbed from Wikipedia an shit.

>>10629958
>PROFESSORS are the admissions committee, and they literally PAY you their own money. if they admit some unqualified black kid they are wasting 100ks of extremely precious funding for a "muh diversity" statement.
lel, Piper says otherwise - Princeton math will forever be a joke afterwards >>10632963

What are my odds
>going to grad school for applied math
>USA
>Good uni (Purdue)
>3.75 GPA
>3.59 Major GPA
>One shitty semester, rest have 3.81+ semester GPAs
>In research lab, though it doesnt directly pertain to my major
>three recs, one from a full professor, the other from associate profs

Assuming I nail the GRE, would I be competitive for a top 20 program?

>>10632963
sauce?

>>10632963
>>10632986
I find myself sympathizing with Harron quite a bit. I don't know enough about number theory to be a good judge of the quality of her research, but nothing I saw struck me as nonsense. Honestly, as a non-number theorist I found the chatty, informal style of her thesis to be much more readable and understandable than the terse style of her joint paper with Bhargava. Her thesis is, at times, overly silly in my opinion, but I don't see why this sort of informality should be a black mark on her as a mathematician. It's clear that her style of presentation was a deliberate choice. And as certain sections of her thesis and her paper with Bhargava evince, she can present research in a more traditional fashion.

Finally, many of the points she makes strike me as true. It is true that mathematics has a certain culture which some find conducive to success while others do not. It is true that it's hard to communicate mathematics to a layperson. It is true that there is sexism and racism---sometimes overt but usually more subtle---in the mathematical community. It is true that mathematical papers tend to be written in a certain style which can be a poor way to communicate understanding. Etc.

In any case, it seems like really poor form to make a post like this.

>>10632736
Physics Building at Columbia, National Landmark - where the first atom was split in America

>>10632852
How do you get in? Is it similar to the undergrad process?

>>10633025
Come on. Notice her lack of placement even with that PhD - her husband had to get her a shitty job at his school. Wonder why...

Could anybody else waltz into a Princeton math PhD at an advanced age with a French degree? Just look at this thread to tell you the odds.

And yet, with all this handed to her she still cops an awfully entitled attitude.

>>10632963
>She got to go to Princeton
>You don't
The absolute state of this thread

>>10633025
>It is true that there is sexism and racism---sometimes overt but usually more subtle---in the mathematical community
speak for yourself

>>10632963
>Have Math Master's degree with good references
>Out of the 4 state level Uni's I applied to their PHD program, 0/4 accepted me
>Read this
I'm done. I'm better off doing research and publishing on my own time then trying to flag one of these programs to accept me.

>>10633097

>>10624876
i'm a fifth year caltech student with <3.0 GPA and shitty research who spent most of his time being depressed. My dreams of grad school are long gone, honestly i hope mcdonalds accepts my application at this point

>>10625277
this

unless u want to go investment banking

>>10634571
How can you be depressed in sunny California tho?

>>10626697
will you publish less papers? yeah, but so what.

anyways, itdoesntmatter/10

It's hilarious how selfish people are. Schools don't give a shit about you or their students. They care solely about their reputation and whether you can increase it or not.

>>10633025
There are many many many many more deserving people than somebody who just so happened to be born female and black.
I literally know kids from shit neighborhoods or families that get 0 chances and are smarter than this bitch. Shit like this makes my blood boil and people like you deserve to be put at a wall and shot repeatedly until every single fiber of their body is disconnected from eachother.

>>10630354
theoretical or experimental? what field are you studying/researching in? do you learn grad level maths as a physics grad student?

>>10633029
Not at all similar. You apply directly to your research supervisor. There's an interview generally but all the ones I had were less about grilling me (as the undergrad interviews were) and more about potential research discussion.

Also the standard of people in my department isn't stellar, and this probably includes myself. Maybe the more autismal departments have more impressive/autismal students but most people here are pretty meh.

Serious question, what advantages are afforded to someone wanting to do research by having a PhD from a "top tier" university as opposed to a lesser one?

>>10634668
Networking and possibly better infrastructure/material available to carry out your research, although the latter is not always the case as even mid-tier universities have decent funding in most developed countries.

>>10634668
Theoretically, you will be judged based on the merit of your research and not the name of your school. In this way, it is not wrong to say that as long as the work you do is good, it doesn't matter if your university is not.

Practically, top schools attract top names who do top research, so maybe it's easier to get to work on interesting and high-impact stuff.

Further, the name of your supervisor and institution WILL leave an impression on people, deserved or not. The name of your university is especially useful for giving a certain first impression outside of academia (as well as your uni name being enough of a key word that automatic CV review programs pick it up and actual human beings are more likely to see your application). Also, academia is a giant circlejerk and the connections meme is not to be underestimated.

>>10634965
So, at some point, quality of work > name of the school you went to, meaning that if you didn't get into a top program, you might still be able to make a name for yourself by basically saying 'fine, I'll do it myself'?

>>10625066
He was a genius though

>>10634668
A school almost always hires people for faculty only if they have PhD from schools at a class above them. Not always true, however. For example, look at the faculty of top Math schools and all have gone to one of harvard, MIT, pton, chicago and so on.

"I think on the whole grad students are pretty naive about how big an influence where they go to grad school has on their opportunities after graduating. Of course, lots of people do manage to go to less fancy schools and go on to have good careers, but if you look at the schools in the 40-60 range you mention, most of their faculty went to more prestigious places. "

>>10633025
Nice pasta.

>>10624876
Extra-curricular activities, like that nuclear reactor kid.

>>10635610
I remember faculty candidate seminars at my school (top 25) was always shit like cornell, yale, harvard...always above our school... unless it was... ahem... a woman

>>10626685
>[...] a big difference from MIT
FTFY

>>10627110
What is this meme??
It probably depends on the field but 3.8/4.0 from a Top 20 undergrad w/ two summers of research experience is about the average.

>>10626347
Excluding Princeton, Toronto, UChicago, CalTech, and top European institutions.

>inb4 Berkeley
Berkeley literally curves everything to a 3.8 so nah

>>10627942
Which undergrad though? I thought Stanford AA (Aerospace in general) isn't super competitive? (compared to say EECS at same schools)

>>10632712
It's a valid point, but many R&D careers that are both well paid and intellectually satisfying more or less require a PhD. This is for engineering though, which I suppose is typically better funded and easier than other pure science/math fields.

>>10624876
Put in the work, let your craft speak. Find a professor you can talk to and ask what is involved in doctoral work. The BS is a foot in the door to masters just like an AA transfer is for BS. Take the long road, you'll get there eventually. Credits roll off but it takes a long time. Do it at your pace, just keep going and don't give up. If they don't take you for masters candidate, take a semester of postbachelor continuing ed and try again. See what your minor requires to make it a second major and work on that.
>Also, respectable and interesting multidisciplinary work looks really good on an application.
You're in it for the long haul anyway if you want a doctorate, and proving you really plan on not shitting out in the middle of the program is something they'd probably appreciate.
>Persistence is key.

>>10634601
This. Dude is a fag

>>10637947
okay fine,
How do we break the system because it's obvious that poor performers are being placed in top tier positions

>>10624876
If you have decent highschool transcripts and you've done something extra, like say community work or joined a math competition(s) you should absolutely apply to Ivy League schools despite the seemingly impossible task of getting accepted because in reality many people don't even bother, because they think they can't afford it. Little do they realize Ivy League almost all your costs are covered (non ivy league like Stanford too). You even get a living stipend, all of it grants so you graduate with zero debt.

Ex Ivy leager's write about this on hacker news all the time, how they got in despite not being genuises and not being rich/connected (or black/minority pity status).

>>10638200
Also in contrast, West Point is legit impossible to get into as you have to apply as early as Grade 8, and you need a letter from a sitting senator or other politician and you only get this through cronyism or being a turbo acheiver who's captain of the football team while at the same time doing tons of community work and getting 4.0 GPA.

>>10624876
I like how this entire thread avoided the fact that you would need a ton of money and a lifetime of student loans if you don't have rich parents already. These unis are overpriced milking machines, sure top students get in and do highly funded research, but that doesn't mean they're good at anything. Realistically, the original research papers are the ones who everyone idolizes and they don't have to cash out that hard just to be notable.

>>10626041

I'm actually a PhD student helping with an REU this summer. I applied to that very same REU and was rejected, now I'm here helping lead the REU in a funny twist of fate. I helped pick who came and I was shocked at the quality of some students. 4.0, took graduate courses their sophomore year, already wrote a paper or two. It was nuts. No wonder I didn't make it. The biggest factor was a recommendation letter that said something along the lines of "this student is the best I have taught in fifteen years" or similar.

The PI told me that the REU is way harder to get into than the PhD program. We rejected kids from Harvard, MIT, Carnegie Mellon and we're just a public flagship. If you get into one of those, count your blessings, even if you don't think it's a good school.

REUs are not easy to get into. It would be easier to get into a top school and then make friends with a professor who you write a small paper with.

>>10638363
This is a myth.
First, Stanford (in OPs pic) has free tuition if your parents collectively make under $100k a year. They also have free book packs, grants, etc.

Ivy league schools, nobody is paying tuition, almost every student enjoys a grant paying for everything because they make their money from patented research. Public and private money goes into Yale or Brown university labs, very smart students produce research, the school then patents and leases/rents it out to make billions per year.

>>10638212
It's almost as if they are raising our future generals to be proxies for political schemes such as shadow warfare i.e. the deep state.

>>10638416
>4.0
You shouldn't be impressed. 4.0 is not even a good metric of gifted intelligence nor is it a correlation. There isn't much of a difference between a 3.6 and a 3.7 student beyond accuracy which is a useless metric for intelligence. I understand that /sci/ likes to tout otherwise but let's be honest: /sci/ is a bunch of brainlets.
>grad courses sophomore year
Means nothing but raw autism. Either that or they got a headstart on their summer classes since the 8th grade and took all APs in high school. There is no difference between a person who knows calculus at 16 and at 21. I wouldn't call that an accomplishment.
>writing a paper
More like piggybacked onto a professor's lap. Else they're writing something very inconsequential. Very few people write research of worth.
>recommendation system
Literally sucking the professors cock. How do you quantify the "best student in 15 years" besides being likeable? It's a reasonable question but it's not given the time of day. Personality should have no part to play with your career.

>>10636213
>Toronto
Toronto is a meme tier school, any GPA is worthless from there

>>10638681
>meme tier school
As opposed to what? What is not a meme tier school in your opinion?

>>10638691
>t. Toronto shill
Princeton, UChicago, CalTech, etc are not meme tier
Toronto does not fit in there you retarded shill

>>10638679

I gotta say dude, you seem really desperate to belittle an obviously successful student's accomplishments.

>>10638681
Unless of course your interest is in stats/machine learning, as many of their grads ended up at OpenAI institute, in fact one of their grads co-founded it. Each school has departments with their own individual strengths. If you like X subject you go the school who has the most specialist professors and grads involved in X subject.

>>10638679
>this level of cope
cope

>>10626697
This is false. The reason not to do it is because Masters classes are 10x harder than undergrad and you will probably look less special than a near-4.0 UG

>>10624876
The best and surest way is to contact a potential PI early and get him to put in a good word for you. Still very hard but not as random

>>10630031
We’re talking about good schools, not Ivies

>>10638725
I gotta say Reddit, you seem eager to lap up some D1 cock

>>10638679
How many of those things you just listed are also things you attempted and failed?

>>10639325
Does it really matter what I do? Wake the fuck up. The system is broken.

>>10639347
If you can't accomplish such trivial tasks we have no need for you.

>>10639347

The system is broken, but grad school admissions caring about your class performance and publication record is not the reason why it's broken. Cope harder.

>>10625490
In what field retard? How did you know anything of significance in HS

>>10638679
>Personality should have no part to play with your career.
Real world is gonna tear you limb-from-socially-awkward-limb.

>>10638416
>I helped pick who came and I was shocked at the quality of some students. 4.0, took graduate courses their sophomore year, already wrote a paper or two. It was nuts. No wonder I didn't make it.
the quality of applicants seems to increase year to year

eg... now errbody knows you need a pub to help get into grad school, so tons of people get them.

taking grad classes in sophomore year, i don't even know how that happens

>>10639400
Physics

It was a pretty good paper too - we got it published in a very respectable journal.

I don't work in that field anymore so it doesn't particularly matter much for my career - just brought it up to point out that doing publishable scientific work as a young person is not impossible.

>>10639359
Arguments: None found

>>10639470
I've made plenty of substantive points. The ball is in your court to show why you think Academia's lack of appreciation for your 'gifted intelligence' equates to a systemic problem.

Hint: It doesn't. If you feel like anyone owes you anything in life for scoring well on an IQ test or thinking you're smart, you're an infantile, entitled little shit.

>>10639477
Lmao no you did not. Don't try to bullshit your way through a 4chan argument because it's not going to work.

>>10639419
Everyone knows kids who publish in HS just cleaned test tubes or other irrelevant shit. Usually your parents also know the professor who did the paper fory ou.

>>10638427
>Ivy league schools, nobody is paying tuition
lolWUT?!

>>10638681
>t.gotrejectedfromUfT

>>10638427
for grad school??

>>10639590
>67% acceptance rate
https://www.hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/university-of-toronto--st--george
That's higher than some community colleges goy

>>10632852
>https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jun/03/cambridge-colleges-poor-record-on-diversity-highlighted-by-report

>Overall, white British applicants were twice as likely to be admitted to undergraduate courses as their black British peers – 24% of the former gained entry and 12% of the latter.

Equally-qualified applicants, tho?? ?
If not...is this even a story?

>>10639588
>>10639591
no for anyone who typically has annual family income <65-70k its usually free and very reduced tuition <100k. Grad school at many universities is free for STEM though not medschool or law school lol.

If you are intelligent or know the correct people it costs you nothing if you get into ivy league its just you do need to pay for room and board though grants and scholarships can cover that too

>>10639613
>Equally-qualified applicants, tho?? ?
the article makes no mention of the "qualifications" of the applicants, for obvious reasons

>>10639626
spearman’s hypothesis

>>10639598
>>67% acceptance rate
Doesn't work that way in Canada tho.
Universities there have entrance averages, students know them and don't apply to places i their marks are below the entrance average, so the acceptance rate is obviously going to be higher than a US college, because they work differently.
But that's not all:
at Toronto you choose major/specialize AFTER 1st year, so it is more a matter of making it to second year than getting accepted to 1st year.

>>10639644
>t. coping UfT goylet
You could say the same for any school.
School's average profile are public so students with below average scores won't apply.

>>10639566
neither of those apply in my case, but you're probably right that it's perceived that way by some people who read my CV

>>10639554
>Don't try to bullshit your way through a 4chan argument because it's not going to work.

Is the implication here that bullshitting on 4chan is somehow harder than elsewhere?

>>10639658
>>t. coping UfT goylet
>goylet
fuck off back to /pol/, kid

>>10639737
I lol'd at that, too

I filed a patent and have got a paper with a respectable h5 index. Have got a shit GPA but good GRE and a good project. Maybe apply for Masters here. Is it worth it, leaving my shithole country and coming?

>>10639897
>Masters

>>10634644
By "meh" do you mean exceptional by normal standards or actually meh by normal standards?

How would i compare?

A*A*A* a levels from shit school easily top of year, 87 percent at AAA average uni, near the top but definitely not top.

I've only ever met one Oxbridge student (my best friend here got accepted but turned them down) and I'm stronger than him but of course maybe he just got lucky, I never applied. So worried about getting there and being a useless brainlet retard.

>>10634644
>>10640532
I should have expanded a bit on the first paragraph. For example I imagine AAA is "bad" at Cambridge whereas in everyday life it's obviously very good to most people.

>>10638363
>need a ton of money and a lifetime of student loans if you don't have rich parents already
Yuropoor here, this is true if you're applying for undergrad at ETH or Oxbridge/Imperial in most cases, but there are lots of options for stipends and funding at grad-level.

>>10630670
So you were black rofl

You just need cash

>>10630670
can I identify as black?

>>10640532
You'd probably be underwhelmed by the level of the students here. I don't really interpret much based on your grades, especially high school. Everyone at Oxbridge did well in high school but usually they're not very exceptional beyond that. And I really don't know why you'd think they are.

>>10640560
Oxbridge and Imperial aren't any more expensive for EU applicants than any other English universities. Also, the opportunities for free money if you're poor are probably greater than in most other UK universities, though still quite limited.

>>10641394
Why yes, yes you can. Nobody will dare question your self-declaration of race - imagine the furor if they accidentally called an octoroon mulatto white.

Now you can enjoy the gibs.

>>10641531
>And I really don't know why you'd think they are
Absolutely zero contact with people my own age smarter than myself as cringe as it sounds, first because of awful school then because merely good uni and not many friends. It makes it impossible to judge just how good you are.

I was really surprised when I learnt my friend was accepted and met his undergrad offer, before this thought they all geniuses lol.

>>10641531

Not that guy but they kind of are cause of accommodation costs if you can't go home over the holidays. Definitely not a huge difference though, bit it's noticeable

>>10625066
He was literally recruited as a MK-ULTRA test subject

>>10641531
I was addressing the importance of financial support for undergrad studies at a top European uni for EU applicants. I’m German and lots of ETH/Oxbridge material decides to stay here and just go to Aachen, TU Munich etc. instead of bothering with the ridiculous living costs in Zurich or the (relatively) expensive tuition fee of Oxbridge (and living costs of London) compared to the measly fees you pay in Germany or other EU countries.
It’s much easier to go to an Ivy or so at grad level from what I’ve seen, since you have far more options for funding.

>>10625429
If you get helped. I never did, my gf did as a professor basically handed it to her 2nd year. Of course no student actually sets anything like that up themselves.

>>10624876
Just say you went and skip the bullshit. The truth doesn’t matter if you’re rich.

>>10633025
Hey friend. From /r/math? You have to go back :)

Harvard (Math 55) vs Cambridge Tripos.
Which one is better for a Putnam-level mathematician like me?