/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10620686
How about a negative income tax. Although conservative governments will consistently lower thresholds to have legal slaves.

Also >>>/pol/

>implying this is science

is this what "March for Science" faggots consider science? lol

>the guardian
>opinion article

Just stop

>>10620686
That's obvious anon. UBI alone can't dispell poverty but as seen in several cases it helps life be easier.

>only a low IQ dipshit would think it's some miracle pill that'll make you all baller and alpha, you know.

and when people like (or people out to sabotage it) that are in power they RUIN UBI experiments and testing.

It's working for me.
Brainlets running their "experiments" proves nothing. They try to prove the hypothesis they set out for in the first place because they are dishonest. Economics is a pseudoscience that only serves to validate existing views.
OP, you're the "low IQ dipshit" here.

>To 'solve poverty & inequality', one must map out & analyze one's anxieties & insecurities, communicating them with those you love - That is absolutely the best way to achieve personal growth.
Kill yourself

Basic income can't be solvent, at least in my country. Negative income tax is workable and even Friedmanites are in favour of it.

>>10620686

>Everyone receives 1000 dollars for free*
>Everything starts costing 1000 dollars more.
>Nothing changes**.

*: You pay for it.
**: Money gets devalued at a faster rate.

THIS KILLS THE UBI

That's not how it works anon.

>>10621778


The federal government recently printed $4 trillion for the bank bailouts in its quantitative easing program with no inflation. Our plan for a Universal Basic Income uses mostly money already in the economy. In monetary economics, leading theory states that inflation is based on changes in the supply of money. Our UBI plan has minimal changes in the supply of money because it is funded by a Value-added Tax.

It is likely that some companies will increase their prices in response to people having more buying power, and a VAT would also increase prices marginally. However, there will still be competition between firms that will keep prices in check. Over time, technology will continue to decrease the prices of most goods where it is allowed to do so (e.g., clothing, media, consumer electronics, etc.). The main inflation we currently experience is in sectors where automation has not been applied due to government regulation or inapplicability – primarily housing, education, and healthcare. The real issue isn’t Universal Basic Income, it’s whether technology and automation will be allowed to reduce prices in different sectors.

>>10621791
>However, there will still be competition between firms that will keep prices in check
People still believe this meme in 2019?
Just look at streaming services if you want a direct example.

>>10621778
Simpleton brainlet logic.
How NPCs think.

>>10620686
UBI is just the sign that the west is about to fall. Should I support China or Russia in the coming war?

>>10621808
luckily you can get stuff for free.

>>10621809

Are you the right wing equivalent of "Real communism was never tried"?

>>10621828
What?

>>10620898
Bill Gates:
>Tax the robots
Larry Summers:
>DON'T TAX THE ROBOTS
I think Larry is right, in that if you tax robots, there probably won't ever even be any robots, because the primary incentive to build them in the first place is cost savings over flesh and blood workers. If that savings is wiped out by a tax, automation won't even happen and there will be nothing to tax. On the other hand, if you used this tax forestall automation by a bit, at least inequality wouldn't get too much worse than it already is. I don't know, I'm just an idiot. Whatever happens happens.

>>10621817
China and Russia will team up to bring us down at first. Then they will fight each other to pick the carcass.

>>10621852
Okay well I guess I'll leave it to luck. To all the Russian bots scouting the internet I'm 100% willing to be an inside spy and I don't give a shit, I'll kill. I'll leak. I'll do whatever the fuck you want I'm down. The west had a good run but it's garbage now let's do this.

>>10621828
NON-SEQUITOR

>>10621735
It works for you because a lot of workers are paying a fraction of their income for fewer recipients. When UBI becomes universal, there won't be so much of other people's money to go around for each recipient. I think it would be a disaster. Chart is for 2015 btw.

>>10620898
interesting idea. Incentive to spend and keep the economy going, but the rich would of course benefit more from that policy.

also,
>muh /pol/

>>10622107
People paying into it also receive it lol. It's been shown that in Uganda UBI projects or just fucking givin money actually boosted employment.

>>10621843
Learn what the VA in VAT stands for please.

>>10622111
I don't get SHIT from social security until I'm 62 years old, at which point the taxes of the workers then would (hopefully) pay for it. All of the money I paid in was spent already.

>>10622111
One needs money to make money, so giving people resources no-strings-attached will naturally be of great help to the recipients. The question is just where does the money come from?

>>10620686
>paying everyone free money is no solution to poverty
>but maybe the solution is to pay everyone free money
20 goto 10

>>10620686

Economics, like all sciences, changes its story as you change the viewpoint. Economics makes a very clear distinction between Micro and Macro views, but assumes (right or wrong) that the two views are of the same thing.

The problem with this study is that the Macro view cannot be assessed. Unless everyone was on UBI, you can't know how the Macro economy would behave.
The $64k question is this:
Would an actual UNIVERSAL payment create more Buyers and increase demand that would then enlarge the economy to the point that you would no longer need a UBI?

These studies cannot assess that, and so this is like saying vaccines will never eradicate disease because even though we gave it to these few people, other people still got the disease, and these people still got sick from other diseases.

This seems to me to either be a bad conclusion from poorly designed experiments, or simply impossible conclusions drawn from what those experiments were designed to show.

>>10620686
>And there is a democratic deficit: people who get their basic income from charities or aid agencies have no control over how payments are made, to whom, at what level or over what period of time.
You hear that, you dumb plebs? Charitable donations are downright UNDEMOCRATIC.

All the UBI trials were on the scale of hundreds or a few thousand people that a city can pay for without too much trouble, although it is still expensive then. As far as I'm concerned, no city has actually done a real UBI trial, in which every citizen gets enough free money to live on. I doubt it would work out, since the people who are getting a decent income could fuck off to a normal city and pay normal amount of taxes there, leaving only poor people averaging out to the same amount of poverty as before, but now with even less welfare bux than before.

Saw an interesting study on the Seneca Indian tribe, that use their casino money to fund a basic income program for tribe members. Since they started the payments in 2004, poverty rates have significantly increased on the reservation; what is happening is that young adults end up not bothering with entry level jobs, but they end up being unable to get higher end jobs without the work experience first. Then there is the whole drug & alcohol abuse issue that the basic income payments enable.

All in all, I think those interested in UBI programs should investigate the various income schemes Injuns have used their casino money for.

>>10622434
Injuns are pretty unique anon and historically fucked up.

>>10622163
From the experiment starters in those cases but as the country develops more money will be allocated to the UBI fund.

>>10622470
This. A small-s socialist way of life would actually work fairly well in a homogeneous White society. But different races have different character and inclinations -- no reason to paint them all with the same brush.

>>10622470
and not all are the same.

>>10622491
Sorry I forgot to add >>10622497 and hwy do you assume it would only work in a homogeneous white society and not anywhere else?

>>10622502
https://www.poverty-action.org/study/impact-cognitive-behavior-therapy-and-cash-transfers-high-risk-young-men-liberia

>>10622502
Multiracial societies (say, <70% majority race) are well known to be fractious and unstable. You won't find a counterexample anywhere in the world where the tribal tendency isn't counterweighted by an equally strong, repressive police state.

>>10622755
>Multiracial societies (say, <70% majority race) are well known to be fractious and unstable.

That's completely dependant on the society and history since homogenous nations are far from bring uniformly stable or always being stable.

>>10622784
Being of one homogenous group does not prevent conflict from happening because there's plenty of shit to fight over or ways to differentiate a population.

>>10622784
>>10622785
>Being of one homogenous group does not prevent conflict from happening because there's plenty of shit to fight over
COPE. Homogeneous societies are measurably more peaceful, white or east asian societies in particular.
>inb4 war
Always between two different races or cultures.
>inb4 religious conflict
COPE. Always lines up with racial divides. Disagreement is possible, but no racial divide, no conflict.
>inb4 skin deep
/r/rickandmorty is that way

>>10622875
Die shitposter. Read a fucking history book.

>>10621727
You're an autistic moron who knows nothing about how political/economic systems work if you think that the "experiments" with UBI actually yielded any valuable data. How exactly were they supposed to control for the effects of the external macro-economy when they ran these experiments? How were they supposed to be sure that this experiment that achieved marginal success in their very small test case was actually giving them an effective result in the macro case rather than just proving that UBI provides a significant advantage to those who have it when it is existing within a macro-economy where the vast majority of everyone else doesn't?

>>10622894
>out of arguments

>>10622930
Japan and China. Here's your fucking hint.

>>10622895
Then they can expand it to a bigger pool lol. Look how universal healthcare was done in Canada.

>>10622937
what about them, you defensive spastic? make your points of stop posting. the audacity of calling the other guy a shitposter when you're getting emotional and dodging the discussion.

>>10622937
>Japan
Homogeneous, safe, police are friendly
>China
Nonhomogeneous, dangerous at night, secret police are ubiquitous. This even after outlawing religion, outlawing non-Party ideology, harmonizing language under one mandarin (lit. "bureaucratic") written and spoken language, and even somehow convincing the northern and southern populations that they are all one "Han" race.

It's like night and day, anon. Like, I know you've never been anywhere close to Asia, but still, how can you be this ignorant? In the age of Google and Wikipedia?

>>10620941
this.

paid shills write opeds day in and day out to protect industry interests, nothing new.

>>10621843
>West tax the robots
>China doesn't
>in 20 years China runs the world

I'm much more in favor of a negative income tax to help the people are struggling the most. UBI doesn't generate wealth. Welfare doesn't generate wealth. It takes money that probably would have been invested in our economy from people who earned it and gives it to people who havn't. It takes away the incentive to work. If you gave me $1000 and I spent it at the McDonald's, that doesn't do much for the economy. If I invested it in a business that would have a much greater effect. Over the long term, creation of wealth has a much more positive impact on everyone's lives than muh gibs.

>>10622947
china is safe as fuck you retard, not as much as japan tough

>>10623168
>china is safe as fuck
Not sure where you got that idea or if maybe it's just flamebait? It's definitely safer than a black or brown country, but most areas have a high crime rate, along with certain, let's say, local hazards.

>>10620686
>good fing bad
>more succdem neoliberalism!
No. Die.

>>10620686
Also UBI payments are never enough to cover people's needs, so of course these programs don't work.

>>10620898
UBI is effectively a negative income tax with no means testing
>>10622110
How? It's only applied to the lowest income brackets in lieu of welfare/transfer payments.

>>10623228
imagine living your whole life like this. every time you go the mall you're not sure whether you or one of your children will die a gruesome death in front of you

>>10622895
>>10622481

For the large scale UBI, like a whole state or country, who is supposed to pay for EVERYBODY to live on? Most people can barely pay for themselves, and the wealthy have no reason to stay in that state or country if their taxes are increased too much.