/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10592413
>CO2 is produced when electric vehicles are powered by electricity from fossil fuel power plants instead of renewable power/nuclear
Who could possibly have foreseen this, electric cars BTFO forever.

>>10592413

Lel, I hope this is actually true and not just some political move by big oil.

>>10592426
It's trivially true if you live in a country that is primarily powered by fossil fuels. It had nothing to do with electric cars.

So you're telling me that burning fossil fuels to make electricity that powers a car requires more fuel that burning fossil fuels to directly power a car?
Fuck.

>>10592413
Why are people so insistent on electric cars to save the planet?
Just reduce the number of them by having better more reliable public transport. Also, more freight trains for companies.

In any case, food waste and battery farms pollute quite a lot, and are easy problems to fix.

>>10592477
In theory that is true but requires redesigning cities to make it efficient for people to use public transports

>>10592413
So did they study include the emissions produced by the oil rigs, oil tankers, ports, refineries, gas stations and the other support structures that allow diesel and petrol cars in the first place?

>>10592484
Better than redesigning the climate of a planet I suppose

>>10592413
“OH NONONONONONNO

TESLA ABSOLUTELY BTFO”

Shit thread. Don’t type like that.

“http://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome/presse/Pressemitteilungen/Pressemitteilungen-Archiv/2019/Q2/pm_20190417_sd08-Elektroautos.html”

Wow, it’s almost like we should work to make energy grids greener....

Shit thread propagating moronic research.

>>10592426
>I want climate change to get worse lol

Moron.

>>10592477
Public transport is wildly, wildly inefficient in most parts of the globe, also at least where I come from there is a shortage of drivers/operators who are willing to do the jobs and that's even with the massive bonuses and overtime. Here, train drivers are easily pulling in six figures with overtime. It's simply not a great job.

The cost of redesigning cities for mass public transit is another thing, but in my opinion, the biggest problem in most of the Western world would be the politics. People see having a car as a status symbol, and a symbol of independence. You'd have to force them to give it up or they'd move away in droves once they had enough money. Electric cars is the only solution and I hope they receive everything they need to work or we're fucked.

>>10592413
It's not actually about aggregate emissions. It's about perceived personal impact. Just marketing.
People are not terribly concerned with total emissions, they are however, concerned with their own emissions. Seeing the cloud behind their car in the winter bothers them, it makes them feel guilty for polluting. They don't see it in an electric car. And that power plant is so far away!

>>10592465
No. Electric cars are about twice as efficient in this case. But maybe they are looking at leafs or something and taking in the carbon cost of the batteries and manufacturing into account.

>>10592413
Once they'll be running out on gravity or environmental heat, you'll be BTFO'd

A lot of retarded assumptions in that study
If you want to reduce your emissions, you'll most likely have renewable energy at home.

>>10592477
>Why are people so insistent on electric cars
because amerimutts and cacucks have built a retarded society where life without a car is unthinkable and they're deadset against communist public transport. that's the real answer

>>10592532
>Making personal attacks on electric car owners you don’t know instead of actually discussing emissions

Brilliant. Must be a moron.

>>10592528
>the west this and that
No it's just America

>>10592528
The “west” does not exist. There is literally nothing that delineates the “west” from the rest of the world.

>>10592465
That's legit surprising to me, I would have expected that power plants would produce power much more efficiently than mobile sources

>>10592752
Power plants are about 50% more efficient than ICEs

>>10592562
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world

>>10592413
In Germany, many of us (who are not green faggots. Just saying: No, don't belong to rights either. I vote for FDP) called this long ago. Electric cars is a market that is not going to succeed, not in this state and yet our current government is spending much more money on it than actual very successful markets such like AI or Digitization in general. This is why Germany will always stay behind. One might wonder how long it took Germany to get glass fibers here. Don't even ask. You would only laugh at us.

>>10592477
>>10592505
Because you still need zero emission plants to completely solve the problem and if you have zero emission plants then you might as well use electricity to power your car instead of getting on public transport with all the dirty insane hobos.

>>10592809
What’s the point in saying
>EVs will never succeed in this state
When obviously the state of EVs will change over time. It’s pretty obvious they are all but guaranteed to be the future at this point.

>>10592809
lmao germany is the joke of europe

>>10592830
No because not everyone looks at LA and thinks “i wish my city was like that”.

Cars don’t scale in cities, which is why many large cities try to make people use public transit instead. Not because of the environment, but because of traffic capacity.

>>10592830
>dirty insane hobos.
t amerimutt
fuck your race and your country

>>10592809
> I vote for FDP
>The FDP strongly supports human rights, civil liberties and internationalism.
Enjoy getting replaced by turks.

>>10592562
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

>>10592853
With the UK gone there won’t be anyone left pushing hard for Turkey to join the single market.

>>10592853
I do enjoy that, thank you, as I have a cuck fetish. I enjoy witnessing the womb of my wife be filled with turkish superior quality sperm

>>10592853
Look faggot. If the AfD would actually provide more topics rather than immigration, I would overthink my position of voting FDP. But I am not here to rely my future only on immigration while completely fucking up our economy. AfD needs to buckle up and get their shit together. Even the inner party wars they currently have is annoying as fuck. I can't vote a party that is not able to hold together.

>>10592413
That's because Germany banned nuclear power and uses mostly coal-fired and gas burning plants.
We fell HARD for the Renewable meme, which led to the banning, which led to the dominion of fossil fuel power. Meanwhile the retarded French are able to power over 90% of their country with Nuclear.
Nuclear emits less CO2 than any other power source sans geothermal and hydroelectrik.
>>10592422
Don't group nuclear and renewables together. Renewables are the reason nuclear went by the way side an fossil fuels were able to return. look at the average consumer cost. renewables are a long way from being able to compete with nuclear.

>>10592884
Damn would I love to see Germany build some absolute GERMAN tier nuclear power plants. Imagine some massive over engineered brutalist power plants, producing enough power to run all of europe.

What's the point of being Germany if you're not going to terrify the world with autistic engineering might?

>>10592426
>German study
It's a political move by German Diesel lobby. They already had one study with which to spread fear, unceartainty and doubt, but that one got debunked by now so they needed a fresh one.

>>10592422
Electric cars will become greener over time as the overall power supply becomes greener.

>>10592553
This isn't a personal attack, sorry if you took it that way. I'm merely explaining why people continue to insist that EV is the way despite studies like this showing higher emissions with them. It puts the problem out of sight, therefore, out of mind.

>>10592465
No, they're a lot more efficient while running even on 100% coal power. A huge plant will always be more efficient thant thousands of small engines. Problem is the ressource extraction and fabrication of the batteries takes a shitton more energy than building of a fossil fuel engine and tank.
So if you make some pessimistic assumptions and fail to calculate that carbon neutral energy is permanently increasing each year, you can manufacture studies like OP.

Of course there's tons of other reasons to switch to electric cars as well. Gaining independence from the middle east for one and not spewing exhaust gasses into highly populated city streets are the two major ones that come to mind. Also stuff like instant torque and being able to turn on the heating remotely.

>>10592915
Only the most inefficient EV's are like this. I've seen studies that show some EVs are about 2x as efficient as EV's when you take the carbon cost of manufacturing into account, battery life etc.

Quite obviously EV's are the way forward as the electric Grid is only going to get greener, and EVs more efficient to manufacture.

>>10592809
>FDP
I take it you own a hotel?

>>10592941
yes take it in the butt honey

>>10592925
Sure. They may very well have a softer impact than petroleum. Almost certainly, if the electricity isn't made using pet. That doesn't make them zero emission vehicles in truth. And I'm aware no one ITT is saying they are, but that's the common belief. Common beliefs will be targeted by marketers, especially guilt, because it's a powerful manipulative tactic. That's all I'm getting at with my post.
Even if this study was done by big oil to make EVs look bad, you still see that element in it: guilt the consumer into believing they are harming the planet by using a competing product.

>>10592809
>i vote for FPD

>>10592895
We have nuclear power plants in Germany. But they're just the same shitty water kettles that everyone else uses.
There was at least one major experimental reactor in the 80s which was a helium cooled pile reactor. But that thing was a massive failure and shut down within 2 years or so.

>>10592949
Obviously they emit CO2 in the manufacturing process, or indirectly when being charged (sometimes). Zero emissions obviously refers to them not directly emitting anything during operation like ICEs.

>That's all I'm getting at with my post.
No you went further than that. You said people were dumb for thinking they were the way forward. Now you're just saying their marketing is misleading in your opinion.

>guilt the consumer into believing they are harming the planet by using a competing product.
Because that's literally true. EV's are a big part of reducing CO2 emissions, even if they aren't as efficient now as they could be.

Country that has its entire heart soul and modern history tied to creating, perfecting, and making love to internal combustion engine vehicles say internal combustion engine vehicles are best. Who could have seen that coming. I'm sure it's unbiased and without an agenda

>>10592989
>countries can talk

>>10592895
We had a nuclear future before Merkel and Schröder ruined everything. new reactor designs, government fudning for research. now its virtually all gone.
Anti-nuclear 'people' should be rounded up and gassed.

>>10592953
>>10592941
Read >>10592882

>>10593119
Why do you think I >>10592941 am some nazi retard?
Now I'm gonna laugh at you again for even considering AFD.

>>10592899
That'sthejoke.jpg

>>10593130
Nice strawman, bud.

>>10592518

>Travel often
>Stay a lot in hotels
>Leave water tap open 90% of the time even when I'm not in the room to make sure I waste in 1 day what ecologically conscious groups have saved in 5 months.
>Bring this entire shit society one step closer to not existing anymore.

Is this not the right algorithm?

>>10593159
>you can't fuck society without fucking up the entire planet

>>10593409
exactly

>>10592477
Enjoy paying $5k a month in rent to live near transit lines and having no geographic mobility.

>>10593150
Cringe

>>10592528
I'm guessing you are from the USA. Public transit in the USA, outside of DC and NYC is, in my experience, pretty hellish: full of poverty victims, homeless, etc.
Public transit in most countries is pretty great. pic related: Montreal subway

>>10592899
This isn't a given. Without nuclear, it's unlikely.

>>10593508
You think without nuclear it's unlikely the grid will get ANY greener than it is today? The grid gets significantly greener every year. Renewable power plants are flying up and coal ones closing down.

>>10592809
Are Germans all this dumb? Is this why they can't last 100 years without trying to destroy Europe?

>>10593508
nuclear isnt green

>within 20 years fossil fueled cars will be banned
>it will also be illegal to drive a car manually
>cities will be clean and silent
Interesting to think if some people will go crazy from the lack of noise from cars in future cities.

>>10593555
>>it will also be illegal to drive a car manually
that's a meme retard

>>10592413
our resident abrasive climate nanny from mit economics dept is feverishly scouring the internet finding "peer-reviewed" work to refute this to better sell carbon tax, nuclear, and "clean growth".

>>10593555
>>10593569
It WILL be illegal to drive a car manually. But not within 100 years. Always insist a time frame when people are talking about future events.

>>10593579
>But not within 100 years.
I'd doubt it will take that long. At least for a lot of areas in cities ect.

Once FSD is possible, and proves safer than the average human driver, it won't take long before every human road fatality ends with someone says "if human drivers weren't legal here, he/she would still be alive".

>>10593592
I can also see some motorways becoming FSDways too. Cars in FSD mode can only enter, no human drivers allowed. Cars can go much faster than the human drivers were allowed to on the same roads.

>>10593159
Cringe.

>>10592915
>I'm merely explaining why people continue to insist that EV is the way despite studies like this showing higher emissions with them

They don’t have higher emissions than gasoline or diesel cars. Germany just has a shitty energy makeup.

>>10592856
Nope.

>>10592795
Describes nothing that is meaningfully delineated from anything else. Western world does not exist. It’s just a racist lie, and anyone that propagates it should be shot.

>>10593607
Even if that were true it wouldn't mean squat because of population growth

>>10593592
>Once FSD is possible
it's not going to be possible for a long while dumb cunt

>>10593619
the west is better than the rest, because the west figured it all out first. deal with it you pathetic racist.

>>10593622
Doubtful. I figure we'll see some impressive first real efforts in 3 years, and things will move quickly from there.

>>10593619
It's literally the definition of the western world. Saying it "doesn't exist" is meaningless. It's part of the common dictum all over the world.

>>10593477
>outside of DC and NYC
No shit. Maybe because DC and NYC are densely packed, and the vast majority of America, which is 30-50x the size of most Euorpean countries, is not.
>Montreal
And in the vast majority of Canada it's either non-existent or equivalent to what's on offer in the US.

>>10593553
It's the greenest source of consistent power.

>>10593626
all of this of course being based on absolute nothing, but at least you figured so

>>10593553
>Nuclear isn't green

>>10593638
It's my intuition based on watching the progress of the tech.

What's your time line and what is it based on?

>>10593657
you're like people in the 50s thinking flying cars are just a matter of time because of helicopters
what tech progression? we have no idea how to make a car self drive in an urban environment, which is radically different from highway cruising. there's been no progress on that front

>>10593657
>>10593668
They also can't drive in literally any weather conditions. Fog, rain, snow, w/e, they're all fatal flaws. These problems are many years old and still unsolved. You likely won't have self-driving cars in your lifetime, no matter how many tech journalists insist that you will, and no matter how much money google throws at the problem.

>>10593668
>we have no idea how to make a car self drive in an urban environment
Tesla already do it on their dev vehicles. There's nothing too hard about an urban environment. You just need the neural network to be fast enough and well trained enough.

>there's been no progress on that front
self driving cars are getting better on this front basically every month. Lots of companies are working hard on it. Simply because you can't buy a car that does it doesn't mean there#'s been no progress. What would constitute progress to you?

>>10593677
>Fog, rain, snow, w/e, they're all fatal flaws.
They can though. Arguably they can potentially drive better than humans in those conditions as radar can see through the fog, snow and rain. If a human can see through that weather, then so can the cars cameras.

>>10593684
refer to >>10593638
lidar literally doesn't work in the rain.
or any other weather conditions.

>>10593692
>lidar literally doesn't work in the rain.
Teslas don't use lidar at all. And it's far from the only FSR sensor at any rate.

>>10593678
>Tesla already do it on their dev vehicles. There's nothing too hard about an urban environment. You just need the neural network to be fast enough and well trained enough.
literally every single sentence in this line of text is wrong.
>another tech-utopiian tesla shill

>>10593677
there's no reasoning with these people, they have no concept

>>10593474
Yeah, you really are. Do you have the mental capacity to articulate yourself like a normal person and not rely on logical fallacies such like straw mans and ad homines? Well, probably not.

>>10593678
Everything in so simple if you're wearing rose tinted glasses

>>10593708
What's so insurmountable about urban environments?

>>10593712
Well everything is complex when you wear shit tinted glasses. You can literally say that about anything.

>>10593718
have you ever driven? my spider-senses are tingling that you might be in highschool and underage

>>10593727
I'm 33. Been driving for about 10 years now.

>>10593555
>>10593569
>it will also be illegal to drive a car manually
>that's a meme retard

Why is it a meme? Once automated cars become more widespread and proven people will start to understand that they're actually safer than human drivers (and getting safer as self driving algorithms improve). This will eventually lead to calls for the banning or restriction of human drivers to improve safety. Even if there's resistance all it will take is another Nice truck attack to generate the mood to push it through into law.

>>10593844
that reality is still decades away not merely 3 years

>>10593868
No one said it would be 3 years.

>>10592441
This. The title of the linked article is pure clickbait. Fucking disgusting is the state of modern journalism.

>>10593868
well he did say 20 years

>>10593874
>>10593626

>>10593884
Did you quote the wrong post?

>>10593553
>literally the ecologically safest source of energy
>isn't green

>>10593870
>>10593626

>>10593898
You literally can't read.
>First efforts in FSD in 3 years
>non FSD cars being banned from roads
not the same thing

>>10593904
first efforts=decades
non fsd banned=century

>>10593912
If you say so bub.

You still failed to read.

>>10593517
It's been getting WORSE since the move away from nuclear power not better. Large wind and solar farms require coal or gas backup plants for intermittency.

>>10593950
The trend in recent years has it going down mate.

>Large wind and solar farms require coal or gas backup plants for intermittency.
Batteries

>>10593904
Wait, you think cars which do not yet exist will not only replace but make illegal the millions of cars currently on the road? Is this your prediction?
>>10593955
>Batteries
Checkmate, engineers

>>10593959
>Is this your prediction?
It's fucking obvious. All cars on the road today will be retired in time anyways. Nothing controversial is being suggested here.

>Checkmate, engineers
Quite right

>>10593955
>source, dude trust me
Also
>muh batteries
Doesn't solve intermittency, brainlet.

>>10593965
They were until this year in the US at least. Fuck.
https://www.vox.com/2019/1/8/18174082/us-carbon-emissions-2018

Still down since peaking in 2007 though of course.

>Doesn't solve intermittency, brainlet.
Are you thick? When the wind is blowing, the batteries are charged, when it's not the batteries provide the power.

>>10592518
>Co2 is responsible for climate change

>>10592477
The only way to 'save the planet' is to have a massive cull off of everyone below 100 IQ

OH NONONONONONO

LOOK AT THIS DOOD

>>10593964
>All cars on the road today will be retired in time anyways.
The phase out alone will take decades

>>10593976
Not nearly enough to sustain the demands of a city. The wind can be out or underpowered for weeks at a time.

>>10593014
>german saying people should be rounded up and gassed
typical

>>10594282
Of course, cull all of the proles that basically run our workforce.

>>10593555
It will be longer than 20 years, and I doubt it'll ever be illegal outside of cities.

>>10592884
Germany switching had more to do with Fukushima senpai. Merkel pandered to fearmongering among the masses.

>>10592861
>having a kafka son

>>10594387
It's gotta happen eventually, since we've effectively block mother nature from doing it.

>>10592477
You cannot have mass public transport unless we fix our demographic problems on the west. I live in a major US city that is 45% black.

>>10593950
you should have added:
"price not including insurance, power plant dismanteling and long term storage of nuclear waste"

>>10592413
>Krauts
Didn't they get fucking Bee Tee efF Ohh'ed for literally completely fucking fudging the CO2 emissions on their cars?

>>10592884
Holy fuck what happened to that 'German efficiency I used to hear so much about'

>>10592441
Cope

>>10592477
Ride the bus, nigger

>>10594282
Literally this

>>10594282
Right idea. Wrong demographic.
The people causing the most trouble are the midwits. IQs of 100 to 120. Midwits are elected to public office. Midwits put a drain on higher educational resources and job positions which displaces the highly intelligent.
Low IQ people can be convinced and are aware of their limited intelligence. They know to listen to a smart person. The midwit does not. The midwit thinks he is a genius and no matter how excellent your logic, or how sharp your rhetoric, the midwit will be unmoved.
We need a low IQ and high IQ alliance. They do the labor. The high IQ does the ruling and thinking.

>>10592413
>Batery production is worse for the environment than fossil fuels
People have been saying this for over a decade, fucking top gear even said this. If this is still true now, can you imagine how bad green cars were for the environment 10 years ago when they were saying this? And instead of being taken seriously anyone who said it was just made in of.

>>10592477
>Why are people so insistent on electric cars to save the planet?
Why are people so insistent on suggesting that ANY given thing is a silver bullet. We need to a whole bunch of stuff, but all of it is a long term win, moving us towards Star Trek and not Blade Runner. But people like clinging to doom. It's fun for them.

>>10594874
>Low IQ people can be convinced and are aware of their limited intelligence. They know to listen to a smart person.
Maybe in the past, when shame was still a thing, but now that they've realized that they can buck the system and put idiots in office, the war has truly been lost.

>>10595089
You are extrapolating your experience of midwits to low IQ people. Midwits are the influencers of the low IQ at present.
Case in point, Reddit.

>>10594914
the green agenda is just an agenda, got nothing to do with climate change or anything

>>10592477
Because car companies want to secure healthy growth rates. Over the course of hte past 5 years, car production has basically stagnated. Hell, it's been in decline for the past 2 years. By conditioning everybody that electric cars are the thing to save the future, nobody will bitch about ban on traditionally fuelled cars. You think it's your fault that the planet is dying, so you'll just bite the pill and get an E-Car. However, due to this being politically enfored (bans of traditional cars by 2025 in Norway, China and many others), the companies have no reason to invest into RnD themselves right now. Now do what is necessary, but at the end of the day you'll buy a car by 2025, a substandard one still in development, and because you want a better one 10-15 years down the line, you'll get a new one etc. Pushing electric cars essentially hammers car manufacturing growth rates into stone for the next 50 years and it's not the companies that have to pay the development of the tech. It's the average joe who will because he can't choose to not buy one of the flawed, early development cars running on shit tier batteries, unable to get further than 250km in winter.

Dont live in Germany, Poland, Netherlands.

Live in France or Sweden, they basically dont burn coal for electricity

>>10596661
Good, not everybody deserves a car and electric cars will still be what saves our asses. Just get multiple companies on board with producing electric cars and the free market will optimize the cars eventually, who cares if the first generation is a little substandard.

>>10592413
not in France or any country majorly using nuclear power

Entire german economy would go in deeper recession than Greece, if they coulnt sell their gaseous murderuous fossil engines for 1 year.

Hence, they FUD

>>10598394
They don't need studies to get people to buy their cars, brainlet. You know what the Dieselgate caused? For Volkswagen to retake the top spot for most vehicles sold.

>>10592413
All the CO2 generation is done in a single location, where particulate matter, NOx, and SOx can be scrubbed out, unlike with a car, where this shit is pumped out on the roadways and in our cities.

>>10592413
>Be Germany
>Shut down all nuclear plants
>Have to massively import coal because your wind plants can't power shit
>Use that coal produced electricity to power electric cars because there's no other option
>"Wow check out how badly these electric cars pollute our environment"

Germans can only blame themselves for being absolutely pants on head retarded with their energy policies. Their actions for greener energy have made them almost entirely dependent on russia while their co2 emissions just keep going up. Anti-nuclear movement is just as bad as anti-vaxxers

>>10598986
Plus coal emits more radiation than nuclear. Thanks for saving us from ourselves, environmentalists

>>10594914
It sadly isn't true though

>>10598986
Those utter retards are Fukushima really fucked everyone over.

I don't give a fuck about emissions as long as they aren't immediately toxic to me, if electric cars are more efficient then I will use them.

>>10599039
>Plus coal emits more radiation than nuclear
? what

>>10599756
surprise motherfucker

debunked study
>debunked study
debunked study
>debunked study
debunked study
>debunked study
debunked study
>debunked study

The people it is from said it was taken out of context. Just big oil smear.

>>10596661
And during the winter you can forget about parking it anywhere that doesn't have a charging. I wouldn't be surprised if you lose a lot of range per day parking even during summer.

>>10600085
shill

>>10596661
And during the winter you can forget about parking it anywhere that doesn't have a charging station. I wouldn't be surprised if you lose a fair bit of range per day parking even during summer.

>>10600089
Read the actual article in OP

It's shit, pure opinion and just says hydrogen is better with no argument. They don't even mention hydrogen is thermodynamically limited to shit efficiency compared to EV.

>>10592413
>BTFO
only if you're a brainlet

>>10600117
Simple Thermodynamics education is above the heads of 90% of sci posters.

>>10600142
>Simple Thermodynamics education

Is that what you call the pic you posted? Oh... it is... you actually named it thermodynamics.jpg

"thermodynamics" for economics/marketing types

LOL

>>10600080
tell me more, i'm interested, i'm not working with coal in any capacity.

>>10592413
>Germany
Well duh, it's a country with over 80% electrical production from non-renewable sources. What did you expect? The obvious solution is for Germany to decrease their reliance on fossil fuels for electricity, pic related.

>>10596661
>Because car companies want to secure healthy growth rates.
If that's the case they'll fail miserably.

>>10600154
Should say non-nuclear instead.
Nuclear is cleaner and more viable than most so called renewables.

>>10600148
>efficiency limits aren't thermodynamics

>>10600155
Sorry labrat, stick to your experiments. Your understanding of business practices is and always was grade school level. That's why accountants and people with a degree in economics need to make sure that your companies don't go bankrupt.

>>10600156
Yes nuclear is good too, but the problem is that Germany, and most of Europe for that matter has a lot of anti-nuclear lobbying. I personally would love to see SMR/APWR adopted in Germany, but it's really unlikely given public perception.

>Germany
Why would you expect clean energy from the same country that made this giant coal industry death machine, the Bagger 288?

>>10593477
Sacramento here. Public Transport's ok, but one large flaw is that the suburban-dwelling people that use it to commute to work have to drive to get to it, or take a bus to get to the train. It reaches out decently far south, and east, but doesn't touch West Sacramento. It could to with being stretched farther North to touch areas that commonly commute longer distances in, but I'm no city designer or engineer or whoever would even work on these things.

The worst we have is a few bums at least. Maybe a tweaker or two at 10pm, but for the most part it's rather calm and clean.

>>10600157
ya no. a flashy chart showing a bunch of different efficiencies is not thermodynamics.

fucking retarded shill, go back to /pol/ a scream racist at everyone. that's what you're good at.

>>10592548
It's mostly because we developed our cities in a time where cars were becoming more and more prevalent, so between that and the fact that we have a shit ton of land we designed our cities with the assumption that people that live there will have cars.

A lot of people are for public transportation, but since no one actually trusts their local governments to make it usable, they may be against the waste of money.

>>10600208
>A lot of people are for public transportation, but since no one actually trusts their local governments to make it usable, they may be against the waste of money.
Not like it's any different outside of Japan. Europe might have public transport, but the people who run it are incompetent virtually everywhere.

>>10600160
Too bad. Not catering science for other's stupidity.

>>10600201
https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/Full_%20Roadmap%20freight%20buses%20Europe_2050_FINAL%20VERSION_corrected%20%282%29.pdf