/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10567108
I don't think it makes that claim.

>>10567108
It's sad but I have to inform you that you're attracted to trannies, if you haven't notice, you're trying to idealize world in a way there would be more of them. That is sick itself.

>>10567108
Are you straw-maning a tweet we can all very easily read?

>>10567108
>"gender dysphoria may also express itself as..."
>lists every common mental disorder and human struggle
why do liberals want to brainwash everyone into becoming fags?

>>10567108
No, but the reverse is almost always true. One of the symptoms of gender dysphoria is depression. This symptom shows up in almost all forms of body dysphoria.
>>10567333
This presentation is actually doing the opposite, and treating transsexualism as what it truly is: a mental illness. The liberal media would want you to believe that transsexualism is just another sexual orientation, and that the high suicide rate associated with transsexuals is caused by social rejection and bullying, when in fact the suicide rate is actually due to symptoms of the mental illness present in almost all transsexuals.

>>10567347
Wrong. Gender dysphoria and “transsexualism” are not the same thing. Try again.

>>10567108
All production of tranny hormones is done by jews.
Jews are using their connection to media and academic jews to push your children to become trannies ( study proving number one cause of trannydom is literally fashion ) to turn them into lifelong cashcows.

>>10567333
Those are symptoms, moron. Coughing could be a cold or lung cancer.

>>10567359
I never said they were, dickbrain. I said that most transsexuals HAVE gender dysphoria.

>>10567347
>treating transsexualism as what it truly is: a mental illness.
What do you suggest we do about it then? All studies I have seen on this indicate that hormones and SRS is more effective than therapy alone. Isn't effective treatment what we want when you have an illness?

>>10567361
Back to your schizo containment board

>>10567365
Wrong. You said transsexualism was a mental illness and then said gender dysphoria was. Which is it? One of them isn’t and never actually has been.

>>10567366
That's like giving the schizophrenic a crown and a scepter as treatment because he thinks he's the king of Denmark.

>>10567366
>Isn't effective treatment what we want when you have an illness?
Yes, exactly. I suggest we look more into ways we can effectively treat gender dysphoria. Instead, the liberal media says—instead of telling them that they have a problem and recommending treatment—that they are truly the opposite gender, and that they SHOULD mutilate their genitals. It's equivalent to telling this fucking retard >>10567361 that his retarded conspiracy theories ARE true, reinforcing his retarded ideology.

>>10567366
that's interesting, from what I hear more than half of post-surgery transsexuals kill themselves. would you consider that a successful method?

>>10567375
Wrong, since the claim that one is the king of Denmark is false. There is no current king of Denmark. They have a Queen currently, and a prince, whereas the claim that one is transgender is, quite simply, true.

>>10567375
I don't think there are any studies that have shown that is the most effective treatment for schizophrenia, nice try though.

>>10567372
Fuck off with your retarded semantic argument. You know what I meant.

>>10567380
The treatment isn’t turning them into a transgender person though, is it? It’s purportedly turning them into women. And they’re not women, just like the schizo isn’t the king of Denmark.

>>10567379
Do you really suggest that "half of post surgery trans people kill them self" gives us any indication of the effectiveness of the treatment?

Try to think about it more than 5 seconds before saying something this dumb again.

>>10567380
> whereas the claim that one is transgender is, quite simply, true
Lmao imagine actually believing this. $10 says this poster is a beta male. How about the fact that they were born with a penis or a vagina? Or their chromosomes?
>inb4 hermaphrodites
Most trannies are not this and this is a legitimate physical disorder.

>>10567380
transgenders claim that they are the opposite gender, shit-for-brains

>>10567379
>From what I hear

Cite a paper.

>that they are truly the opposite gender

They are. The brains of transgender individuals measurably resemble the brains of their identified gender more than their assigned gender.

>and that they SHOULD mutilate their genitals

Sex reassignment surgery is effective treatment.

>It's equivalent to telling this fucking retard >>10567361 # that his retarded conspiracy theories ARE true, reinforcing his retarded ideology.

Wrong, since the claim one is transgender is verifiable.

>>10567359
>>10567372
>>10567359
>Wrong.

>>10567390
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/12/11/study-finds-40-of-transgender-people-have-attempted-suicide/

>>10567382
Oh, so you think gender dysphoria is a mental illness but NOT transsexualism? If so, why are you arguing against treatment of gender dysphoria?

>The treatment isn’t turning them into a transgender person though, is it?

They were already trans. Cosmetic surgery just treats gender dysphoria, which isn’t the same thing as being trans.

>It’s purportedly turning them into women.

Wrong. They were already women.

>And they’re not women

Yes they were, since their identified gender is female.

> just like the schizo isn’t the king of Denmark.

Wrong

>>10567388
>Lmao imagine actually believing this. $10 says this poster is a beta male.

Not an argument.

>How about the fact that they were born with a penis or a vagina?

Sex isn’t gender.

>Or their chromosomes?

Chromosomes are not gender.

>>10567389
And they are, if that’s what they identify as.

>>10567387
I’m not that guy, but such an invasive treatment can’t be *that* effective if its recipients are still killing themselves at a very high frequency because of the thing that the surgery was supposed to address. Isn’t that totally obvious?

>>10567387
>Do you really suggest that "half of post surgery trans people kill them self" gives us any indication of the effectiveness of the treatment?
lmao this is what liberals actually believe

>>10567395
Backpedal from “more than half of post-op transsexuals Kill themselves” to “more than 40% of transgender people have ATTEMPTED suicide”.

Cute/

>>10567391
Not an argument, frogposter.

>I’m not that guy, but such an invasive treatment can’t be *that* effective if its recipients are still killing themselves at a very high frequency because of the thing that the surgery was supposed to address. Isn’t that totally obvious?

Sex reassignment surgery has positive effects on wellbeing for most that have it.

>>10567404
>Backpedal
I wasnt the guy you were arguing with. And Lmfao as if saying 43% as opposed to over half was any serious backpedal. How about you kill yourself already faggot and cope harder. Nobody loves you because you are sick in the head

>>10567408
>43% attempt suicide
>positive effects
Do you not know what the average suicide rate is in the first world or are you actually this retarded

>>10567387

>chop someone’s cock off to solve his dysphoria
>40% chance he’ll kill himself after because he still feels dysphoria

Oh yeah, there’s just no way to know if it’s an effective treatment or not.

>>10567411
>I wasnt the guy you were arguing with.

Good for you.

>And Lmfao as if saying 43% as opposed to over half was any serious backpedal.

Wrong. “Transgender people” is not “post-op transsexuals” and “suicidal attempts is not “kill themselves”. Nice lying, but looks like it got caught.

>How about you kill yourself already faggot and cope harder. Nobody loves you because you are sick in the head

Not an argument.

>>10567403
>>10567416
Did any of you /pol/ finish even high school?

If i were to say: "half of patients undergoing X cancer treatments dies" does this tell you anything about the effectiveness of X cancer treatment? Common now, this isn't really hard if you take a single minute and think about it. What do you think?

>>10567418
Lets back up a minute, fag (male). What exactly is *your* argument? Then I'll go ahead and state mine.

>>10567390
not "over half" but pretty high
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

>>10567402
not just that, it's substantially higher post-surgery. of course it could be other factors but I doubt it

>>10567414
>43% attempt suicide

For transgender people, not post-operation ones.

>positive effects

Since the “43%” statistic refers to transgender people, and not to post-operation ones, this is a non sequitor. You’ve been caught lying. Give it up.

>Do you not know what the average suicide rate is in the first world or are you actually this retarded

It’s higher for trans people, who experience on average improved wellbeing after transition. Insults aren’t an argument.

>>10567108
Sadly, legitimately mentally ill people will latch on to "gender dysphoria" as an explanation for their mental illness to feel more normal, when they are actually mentally ill. Bad shrinks will allow this, and when genital mutilation does not cure their woes, they will hurt or kill themselves.

>>10567421
if more die who take the treatment than who don't then we can probably call it a bad treatment

>>10567428
>not "over half" but pretty high

“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.“

General population, not other transgender people. Another lie.

>not just that, it's substantially higher post-surgery

Not what the study says, liar.

>>10567421
yikes, someone got sand in their dilation hole

>>10567438
“For each exposed person (N = 324), we randomly selected 10 unexposed controls. A person was defined as unexposed if there were no discrepancies in sex designation across the Censuses, Medical Birth, and Total Population registers and no gender identity disorder diagnosis according to the Hospital Discharge Register.”

They compared their suicide rates to NON trans people, not other trans people. Your argument is dead.

>>10567402
>>10567437
>>10567438
>>10567402
You have to compare it to similar cases with treatment and without. Its obviously the more extreme cases of gender dysphoria that undergoes serious surgery as treatment. Its not fun, its dangerous and will be a risk and inconvenience for the rest of their lives, this is never done lightly despite what /pol/'s narrative says.

This has been studied carefully, and from what I have seen most suggest an improvement post surgery.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19816764
>In conclusion, almost all patients were satisfied with the sex reassignment; 86% were assessed by clinicians at follow-up as stable or improved in global functioning.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11314574
>Postoperatively the treated group was no longer gender-dysphoric and was psychologically and socially functioning quite well. Nobody expressed regrets concerning the decision to undergo sex reassignment. Without sex reassignment, the nontreated group showed some improvement, but they also showed a more dysfunctional psychological profile.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16362252
>After SRS, the transsexual person's expectations were met at an emotional and social level, but less so at the physical and sexual level even though a large number of transsexuals (80%) reported improvement of their sexuality.

>>10567448
/pol/tards continuing to present a cogent argument.

>>10567108
People like to indulge ideas. Read up on your Jung.

>>10567459
I’m curious what their reply will be since their source says the opposite of what they think it does.

Other way around.

>>10567461

>>10567459
>nobody expressed regrets
Its a shame this board bans me whenever I post my tranny regret folder because I have lots of information on this topic. It really is just a disgusting, gaping wound where their genitals use to be. They are prone to heinous infections and must be dilated to keep from closing (read: healing).

In the future, we will look at sex-reassignment surgery as we look at the lobotomy today: a terribly blunt medical procedure with many preferable alternatives.

>>10567475
Nice photography. Must be useful to be able to roll it instead of carry it.

>>10567108
This is right, OP's pic related is correct. You have a tummy ache? Gender dysphoria, chop your dick off. Back pain? Chop. Balding? Chop. Eye strain? Chop that shit. Everything is a social construct, Anon; I know you secretly want to chop your dick off. Do it Anon.

>>10567479
Yes, trans people in the future will have vat-grown true vaginas implanted complete with eggs.

>>10567459
those don't say anything about suicide

The science does seem to show that people with gender dysphoria are on average happier after treatment.

The really question, which no amount of citations can answer, is a philosophical one: is a man who has SRS etc. now *really* a woman just because he identifies as one and (sort of) looks like one?

>>10567485
>all this effort instead of just giving them anti-psychotic medicine to treat their disphoria
Lmao. What a great use of society's time and resources. These people will NEVER be women. Also
>muh technojesus will save us
K

>>10567479
I guess your /pol/ folder debunks every studie saying otherwise?

Do you think every surgery gone-wrong an argument against said surgery?
We have to look at numbers and stats, not how we feel about things.

>>10567108
it is vacuously true.
since gender dysphoria is a false premise, everything results from it.

>>10567495
>all this effort instead of just giving them anti-psychotic medicine to treat their dysphoria

Demonstrate antipsychotics to treat gender dysphoria, and that this is more economical.

>These people will NEVER be women.

Wrong. Anyone that identifies as the female gender is a woman by definition regardless of anatomy.

>>10567494
They were already a woman if they identify as one.

>>10567512

Only if you assume that identifying as a woman is sufficient for being a woman.

>>10567504
>saying otherwise
You mean that study you mentioned with a trivial sample size seeming to suggest that none felt regret? Yes, actually. Even Caitlyn Jenner, who had access to the world's premiere surgeons -- due to his wealth -- said they felt regret. Modern medicine is no where near a real transition, and even if we were, should we? Is there a better way? If this involved someone's fingers and not their genitals, im sure youd agree with me. But you have been conditioned to have positive feelings towards people maiming themselves, laboring under the delusion that they are the opposite sex, and then killing themselves. Ah, yes, PROGRESS.

>>10567518
It is. Gender is declarative. You could argue it’s performative but childless women or infertile ones would stop being women.

>>10567489
The claim was originally,
>50% of post-op trans people kill them self, therefore SRS is bad.
I'm arguing that this does not follow, even if the stat is true.

I don't even need to show if his number is wrong or not.

>>10567524
At what point did this become about gender rather than biological sex? And, sincerely, what difference does it make if someone identifies as something that isn’t aligned with their biological sex? Why should we care?

>>10567521
>Even Caitlyn Jenner, who had access to the world's premiere surgeons -- due to his wealth -- said they felt regret.

>Muh one celebrity

>Modern medicine is no where near a real transition

Irrelevant, since current methods already produce effective results.

>and even if we were, should we?

Yes, obviously.

>If this involved someone's fingers and not their genitals, im sure youd agree with me

Fingers are necessary for daily living. Genitals are not.

>But you have been conditioned to have positive feelings towards people maiming themselves

Transition surgery is performed by surgeons, not yourself.

>laboring under the delusion that they are the opposite sex

Transgenders claim to be of a different gender than that assigned, not to be of a different sex.

>and then killing themselves

Demonstrate transtitioning to increase suicide rates.

>>10567525
what are you saying? the study you posted was about their reported feeling of wellness? are you satisfied with half of them feeling better and the rest dying?

>>10567527
>At what point did this become about gender rather than biological sex?

That’s....what gender dysphoria and transgender are about. Gender.

>And, sincerely, what difference does it make if someone identifies as something that isn’t aligned with their biological sex

Gender doesn’t have to “align” with biological sex, since they are different things.

>Why should we care?

Must be a sociopath or something.

>>10567524
what does gender mean? I thought it was about habits and mannerisms? if we're talking about biological sex then obviously having babies isn't the sole arbiter

>>10567521
>You mean that study you mentioned with a trivial sample size
Nothing will satisfy you, I shouldn't bother, but here you go.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12856892
>This study examined factors associated with satisfaction or regret following sex reassignment surgery (SRS) in 232 male-to-female transsexuals operated on between 1994 and 2000 by one surgeon using a consistent technique. Participants, all of whom were at least 1-year postoperative, completed a written questionnaire concerning their experiences and attitudes. Participants reported overwhelmingly that they were happy with their SRS results and that SRS had greatly improved the quality of their lives.

>>10567532
>effective results
>gaping hole and pretending to be something they physically are not
Lol look at this cope
>genitals areent necessary for daily living
>muh sex vs gender
They are the same thing and they can change it. Deal with it.
>demonstrate transitioning and increased suicide rates
But thats not what im claiming. Im claiming it's no better than when they started. Now they are still a mentallt unstable tranny but on top of that they have an infected wound in their groin, they cry every time they 'dilate' because it is extremely painful, and piss flows down their leg.

Yeah, I'm sure THAT was much better than treating the underlying mental illness. Lol youre such a sad little fucking beta. Post your wrists

>>10567532
>transgenders claim to be of a different gender than that assigned, not to be of a different sex
do they really say this? "I identify as female but my biological sex is male"?

>>10567524
under extremely strict and unscientific paradigms, gender is declarative; but this is /sci/ not /pseud/

>>10567540
“either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.”

> I thought it was about habits and mannerisms?

Would a woman that acts very “masculine” just not be a woman to you, even if she says she’s a woman?

>>10567534
If it out preforms no surgery then yes, I would say that it is the better treatment. Shocking right?

We just don't reason from absolute numbers, you have to compare it to something. Is this really the level of intelligence /pol/ is at?

why does watching the pro-tranny argue in these threads remind me so much of how /pol/ neonazis argue how hitler was so great and Naitonal Socialism is so great? it's like, no matter what someone says to be like "no dude, hitler bad", they have like a super highly-researched argument to refute every single piece of common sense

>>>/lgbt/

>>10567547
>effective results

A reduction in gender dysphoria symptoms is effective results.

>gaping hole and pretending to be something they physically are not

Sex isn’t gender.

>Lol look at this cope

Not an argument.

>genitals areent necessary for daily living

Yep. No idea why you quoted that, since it’s true. You could lack genitalia entirely and live your life pretty normally.

>They are the same thing

Nope.

https://www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/understanding/gender-definition/en/

>But thats not what im claiming. Im claiming it's no better than when they started.

Yes they are. Transitioning improves wellbeing for most.

>Yeah, I'm sure THAT was much better than treating the underlying mental illness.

Transition surgery is the treatment of gender dysphoria.

>Lol youre such a sad little fucking beta. Post your wrists

Not an argument.

>>10567553
>Its just common sense common guys, Just ignore papers that suggest it is effective treatment, because common sense.
Good argument.

>>10567551
>outperforms on one outcome
>therefore better treatment

Just lol

>>10567563
Gender dysphoria is discomfort caused by a perceived conflict between one’s gender identity and anatomy. The only relevant factor to a treatment’s efficacy is therefore how effective it is at reducing feelings of gender dysphoria. Transitioning is the most effective way to treat it, so it will keep being done. Sorry.

>>10567562
it is tho. your arguments are NatSoc level. i dare you to go on /pol/ and see if you can argue common sense into them that hitler was bad. just because you have your own ironclad mindset on something doesn’t make it right to abandon basic reason

>>10567550
to me in particular? personally I disagree with the concept of "gender" but I'm willing to play by your rules for the sake of argument
your definition says "social and cultural differences", I've also heard people say specifically physical traits and habits associated with sexes. if we use this definition then a biological female who follows the social and cultural patterns of the gender of "man" then I suppose she's a man, how you identify doesn't seem relevant to me

>>10567551
fine but it looks like no one's found an actual study of the pre-surgery vs post-surgery numbers yet

GUYS I HAVE A QUESTION

Allen Turing killed himself because of the effects of chemical castration if I recall correctly lower levels of testosterone are a major cause of depression and lethargy. Have they ever tried testosterone replacement therapy to treat gender dysphoria?
Then again why give them estrogen? estrogen seems like such a shitty hormone even for women, gives them mood swings and irritabiltiy... why on earth would anyone voluntarily take estrogen?

can we all agree that pro-tranny it is arguing a POV and that scientifically, men have dicks and women have vaginas? fuck off with your psychology pseudoscience

>>10567569
>effective
>as opposed to pills that can reliably keep the psychosis away
Wut

>>10567548
No, none of them would ever say this. Liberals use the gender/sex dichotomy when it's convenient to an argument and ignore it otherwise.

>>10567578
Please cite research demonstrating vague “pills” keep the “psychosis” away.

>>10567576
>testosterone replacement therapy
UGH
just UGH
go back to /pol/ shitlord

>>10567571
I would never try to argue that Hitler was bad by appealing to common sense. That is literally the worst way to convince someone that you're right.

>>10567580
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8839957/
Wonder why surgeons who get paid to do surgery have kept doing this, when this deserves so much more exploration. The fact is that if a pill could do this, I would suggest it 1000X more than cutting your nuts off and continuing to cross dress and weird out people around you.

>>10567584
good argument

>>10567588
Dude youre a fucking bigot. Testosterone is the essence of cis male systemic oppression. The fact that you would force this upon vulnerable transexuals says a lot

>>10567580
well one problem with this argument right now is that no one dares offer treatment other than HRT and SRS because they'll get harassed and blackballed at every turn, the LGBTQ crowd are more concerned with the idea than with individuals

>>10567585
i disagree. i think common sense is a rock that you can rely in when faced with people who have such an ironclad but backward mindset that they think they can “prove” their POV through posting more and more arguments in favor of it. /pol/nazis will start arguing that genocide is fine, and keep arguing that to exhaustion. the only way to argue this is by saying “no idiot, use common sense” since at the end of the day it’s a value judgement that has no scientific proof. same thing goes for whether it is good to frankenstein people’s genitals

>>10567587
This is a case studie. One person. Common, look a bit harder.

We don't look at single examples when we try to determine what is the most effective treatment, this is supposed to be a science board.

>>10567597
Okay sure, and my common sense says that following suggested treatment by medical professionals is probably better than following /pol/'s opinions on this.

Did I do it right?

>>10567587
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8839957/

Was waiting for you to cite that so badly.
1. One case study on one person, useless until larger trials take place.
2. This case study doesn’t describe a normal case of gender dysphoria, and even refers to the diagnosis as “doubtful.’

Instead, it describes a patient with a borderline learning disability, a history of disruptive behavior such as aggression and frequent swearing, an intense fixation on the idea of transitioning, but “no insight into what a sex change would entail in practice”, quoting the authors there, who believed that desire to transition was a “monosymptomatic delusion”, and claim, in the study, that the origin of the symptoms was ambiguous, which is why the conclusion says, you dumbass, “Pharmacotherapy with pimozide should be considered in cases of DOUBTFUL gender dysphoria.”

>>10567593
>Oh yeah well guess what it’s unfalsifisble

Loving this argument

>>10567601
that’s not common sense, that’s appeal to authority. mind you, psychiatrists in the past administered castration to mentally handicapped people, lobotomized women for fictional “hysteria”, and medicated homosexuality with very harmful drugs. common sense “that’s wrong” is how we look at that today

>>10567608
Your studies are all useless until larger studies take place, too, by that metric. Get back to me when you get those studies with n>10000 lmao
>doubtful
Every person with gender dysphoria is doubtful. It's just crazy talk that has been normalized.

>>10567609
It is though. They cant perform this study without jeopardizing their career. People like you made it like this btw

>>10567623
>Your studies are all useless until larger studies take place, too, by that metric.

Nope.

>>10567616
You'd rather appeal to common sense than medical professionals within their field because "science is liar sometimes"? We down to sitcom levels now guys, lets go.

>>10567593
Hmmmmm. Is this a case of doctors getting harassed, or is it patient choice? e.g. if patient claims they have gender dysphoria and they want to undergo transition, what could the doctor say?
Maybe it IS a case of social conditioning. LGBTQA+ talking themselves into it. e.g. born this way, gender is a social construct, we are a protected class, everything is totally fine...

What a shame

>>10567628
Please provide evidence that the career of B. K. Puri and I. Singh has been jeopardized.

>>10567108
>Gender

Not science but you can return to /pol/ or /x/

>>10567636
wow, legitimately no argument. go home

>>10567636
You're misrepresenting his views. This is such a snake tactic but maybe you don't realize it... he's saying medical professionals have done unethical things in the past because it was acceptable practice. The doctor who invented lobotomy was given the nobel prize in medicine because they thought it was a revolutionary cure in controlling psycho patients even though the procedure turned them into a ghost and they acted like innocent children

obviously we know this is wrong now, but hindsight is 20/20... I don't see gender reassignment surgery making it that far into the future... this is probably one thing the future generations will look back on in horror.

>>10567643
But wait, isn't it common sense to go with medical opinion over /pol/?

See how your argument doesn't get us anywhere? You are basically saying; "follow common sense when I agree with it"

>>10567653
>I don't see gender reassignment surgery making it that far into the future... this is probably one thing the future generations will look back on in horror.

Interesting opinion. You can stop posting now.

>>10567656
stop with the /pol/ strawmanning. i'm actually a pretty hardcore liberal aside from identity politics shit.

i'm telling you to go with common sense. the same sort of common sense you use when you make value judgements like "lobotomizing women for hysteria was wrong"

in fact if you look over the history of psychiatrists treating orders related to sexual preferences and sexual psychology in general, pretty much everything throughout history they did until very recently is considered downright wrong and unethical. you have no argument

>>10567333
why not?

>>10567667
Suck my dick this isn't reddit where your cronies can downvote me into oblivion... respond to the argument or post hog and fuck off

>>10567653
>this is probably one thing the future generations will look back on in horror.
Okay, but what are you basing this on? You need numbers, you can't just say "this seems bad" We gather data, and try to analyse it as best as we can so we can know if we are making a mistake or not. A lot of surgery is gruesome, but we still do it when its necessary.

>>10567673
You didn’t make one. You literally just gave your opinion that “I don't see gender reassignment surgery making it that far into the future... this is probably one thing the future generations will look back on in horror.”

That’s literally an opinion about something that will happen in the future with no evidence presented. Boring.

>>10567669
>pretty much everything throughout history they did until very recently is considered downright wrong and unethical.
Sounds like they just thought it was common sense. Maybe they should have studied it carefully to determine it's effectiveness. No?

>>10567677
>skips over the historical arguments the other anon gave and then claims there is no evidence for this anon's claim
classic doublethink

>>10567682
>skips over the historical arguments the other anon gave

>Other procedures in the past are now considered unethical so this one will be too

Nope.

>>10567680
they did study it. you think lobotomies were considered "common sense" to people back 120 years ago? no. the psychologists and psychiatrists went to great lengths to put it on a (pseudo)scientific footing. look it up brainlet

>>10567687
good argument.

you're just as bad as /pol/nazis, i swear. all you do is deflect or ignore real arguments and go into your delusions of having an ironclad view that what you think is "right" without taking a step back and using common sense.

>>10567670

>>10567693
>good argument.

Thanks!

>you're just as bad as /pol/nazis, i swear. all you do is deflect or ignore real arguments

Nope. Claiming that many historical procedures are now considered unethical so therefore a current procedure will be considered unethical is fallacious.

>Common sense

Irrelevant. Cite research.

>>10567700
>Claiming that many historical procedures are now considered unethical so therefore a current procedure will be considered unethical is fallacious.
it's not fallacious. how is looking at psychology and concluding that over history, 100% of the treatments they did relating to sexual psychology are now considered wrong and unethical, so we should be skeptical of the fad treatment of the contemporary world? that seems completely logically sound to me, whereas "they were wrong 100% of the time before, but now magically they're right!" seems stupid.

common sense is never irrelevant. just like /pol/nazis will debate you on "research" about holocaust denial all day, the antidote to their mental cancer is to use fucking common sense.

let me take the neonazi analogy one step further. the neonazis on /pol/, with their ironclad worldview, trick gullible idiots not capable of taking a step back and using common sense into joining the neonazis. this is basically what you are doing; convincing supple young minds to become trannies.

>>10567688
>look it up brainlet
Nice

Don't you think its a bit disingenuous to compare recent medical studies with practice from almost a 100 years ago. How do you determine what surgery are bad or not with your common sense? How do you argue against someone who's common sense you disagree with?

>>10567116
/thread

>>10567676
Gender dysphoria is a mental illness listed in the DSM. Same for homosexuality in the past but homosexuality was split into two parts 1. syntonic and 2. dystonic. It's just a mental disorder, many people are struggling with depression and psychosis we but NEVER entertain their thoughts - the solution has always been institutionalization, anti-psychotic medication, anti-depressants, cognitive behavioral therapy, even electroshock therapy is used in some cases. Now we see more novel approaches with MDMA, Ketamine, LSD to treat PTSD and ibogaine to treat addiction etc... there are countless ways we could resolve this issue and treatment options for individual cases should be discussed more openly.
LGBTQA+ groups have turned this into such a political hot-button topic that literally no-one dare speak out lest they get shunned for bigotry. If this was purely a medical/psychology practice question, then why has the discussion become so heated and now every public no-body and politician gets to have an opinion?

>>10567718
Transgenderism is a recent problem. You won't find enough "sexually reassigned" seniors to conclude anything about the long term effectiveness of this "cure". That's why you should be sceptical of medical opinions on this, which is also common sense.

>>10567714
>it's not fallacious.

That is a fallacy of composition.

>
common sense is never irrelevant. just like /pol/nazis will debate you on "research" about holocaust denial all day, the antidote to their mental cancer is to use fucking common sense.

It’s actually to provide better research and then laugh when they leave the thread. I’ve done it. It’s great. I guess they never heard of aerial reconnaissance before.

>let me take the neonazi analogy one step further. the neonazis on /pol/, with their ironclad worldview, trick gullible idiots not capable of taking a step back and using common sense into joining the neonazis.

Please demonstrate that “common sense”, whatever that’s supposed to be, would ward against Nazism rather than encourage it. Doesn’t sound like logic to me.

>this is basically what you are doing

Nope.

>convincing supple young minds to become trannies.

Nope. The subject was the effectiveness of current transitional surgeries. Try again.

>>10567718
>Don't you think its a bit disingenuous to compare recent medical studies with practice from almost a 100 years ago.
no. why would it be? looking at facts and patterns over time is completely reasonable.
>How do you determine what surgery are bad or not with your common sense?
look, Hippocrate's oath includes "first, do no harm". _first_. if psychiatrists followed that in the past, they would have been more reluctant to lobotomize women with fictional "hysteria". i think a good common sense rule is to follow that -- unless you are _sure_ what you're doing is ethically correct, then just don't give unnecessary treatments.
>How do you argue against someone who's common sense you disagree with?
you don't. you let them be /pol/nazis and simply point out to them that concepts of "right" and "wrong" and having ethics based on principles we all have always known about, like Hippocrates' principle, is just what we all believe. and not to fall for sophistry trying to get you to abandon that kind of age-old wisdom. value judgements can always be argued, but for most of us, we have a sense of right and wrong, and that's the "common" sense

again, do you realize how you are trying to exhaust me with just rapid-fire more and more arguments? classic /pol/nazi tactics.

>>10567749
>Please demonstrate that “common sense”, whatever that’s supposed to be, would ward against Nazism rather than encourage it. Doesn’t sound like logic to me.
you even lack reading comprehension. i am BASHING /pol/nazis, obviously. you're so fucking deluded you can't even follow an argument. i'm basically calling nazis trannies and trannies nazis.

>>10567746
“Transgenderism is a recent problem.”

Nope. Multiple cultures exist and have existed with transgender people in history, even with third genders.

>If this was purely a medical/psychology practice question, then why has the discussion become so heated and now every public no-body and politician gets to have an opinion?

Why is evolution and climate change? There’s morons around like you.

>>10567761
Nobody cares. People weren't "sexually reassigned" in the past, and medical opinions you think it's common sense to trust are based on recent surgeries and their consequences, not on ancient mayan trannies you read about on reddit.

>>10567755
>you even lack reading comprehension.

Nope. You do.

>i am BASHING /pol/nazis, obviously.

Yes, by claiming that common sense would ward against Nazism, but how do you know that common sense, whatever it’s supposed to be, actually does that? Prove it.

>you're so fucking deluded you can't even follow an argument.

Nope.

>i'm basically calling nazis trannies and trannies nazis.

What a silly comparison.

>>10567750
All you are doing is appealing to common sense again. What if your common sense is wrong? How can you determine this?

I'd go with you if you could give us some studies showing that hormones and SRS result in worse outcomes than not doing it. But you wont, which is why we are currently arguing whether "common sense" is a valid argument or not.

Also "Do no harm" doesn't really allow any surgery, but okay. Unless you want to include doing nothing as harm, which I think not giving treatment for trans people would fall under, but whatever.

>>10567765
>Nobody cares.

Not an argument.

>People weren't "sexually reassigned" in the past

Not true. People cut their dicks off for dysphoria reasons in the classical era

>and medical opinions you think it's common sense to trust are based on recent surgeries and their consequences

The consensus of the medical fields is that transition surgery improves the wellbeing of individuals with significant dysphoria, so why are you still talking?

>>10567768
fine, maybe i misread your post. here it goes:

>Yes, by claiming that common sense would ward against Nazism, but how do you know that common sense, whatever it’s supposed to be, actually does that? Prove it.
genocide is bad. common sense.

doing frankenstein surgeries on (confused) (young) people is bad. common sense.

>>10567774
>Not an argument.
It's an information for you.
>People cut their dicks off for dysphoria reasons in the classical era
That was obviously not "reassignment surgery".
>The consensus of the medical fields is that transition surgery improves the wellbeing of individuals with significant dysphoria, so why are you still talking?
This "consensus" is a recent construct that hasn't yet withstood a test of time and isn't even based on long-term studies.

>>10567772
>Also "Do no harm" doesn't really allow any surgery
false. removing an infected appendix is 100% beneficial. draining a cyst is 100% beneficial. removing a bullet from a bullet wound is 100% beneficial. chopping a dude's dick off and sticking it inside out into a new cavity carved into his body is quite questionable.

>>10567779
>genocide is bad. common sense.

How do you know common sense says that? Yours’ might, but someone else’s may not. Someone may think it’s common sense that it’s best to just exterminate all other groups.

>That was obviously not "reassignment surgery".

Sure it was. Removing their “masculine” genitalia to alleviate feelings of dysphoria is some barbaric level of “reassignment surgery”.

>This "consensus" is a recent construct that hasn't yet withstood a test of time and isn't even based on long-term studies.

Wrong. Data on the wellbeing of post-op people has been gathered for more than forty years, and over that time period, the quality of surgery has improved.

>>10567361
What if this is really true lol?

>>10567786
It's not the form of surgery that any modern consensus you think it's common sense to trust would be based on.
>Wrong. Data on the wellbeing of post-op people has been gathered for more than forty years, and over that time period, the quality of surgery has improved.
Show me a study with a significant sample of transgender seniors.

>>10567786
>How do you know common sense says that? Yours’ might, but someone else’s may not. Someone may think it’s common sense that it’s best to just exterminate all other groups.
ah hah, the /pol/nazi mantra is explicitly uttered by a tranny-pusher. see, you guys _are_ morally equivalent.
>Sure it was. Removing their “masculine” genitalia to alleviate feelings of dysphoria is some barbaric level of “reassignment surgery”.
oh, now you enter ironic argumentation. another /pol/nazi tactic. now that i have to guess at what you really mean, the only thing i can say is that for SURE sex reassignment surgery is way more frankenstein level than even grafting butt skin onto the face. butt-to-face skin transplants are recognized as "experimental" surgeries that are not normally diagnosed unless the patient is aware that it is an "experiment" that goes beyond normal medical ethics a la Hippocrates' Oath.

> Data on the wellbeing of post-op people has been gathered for more than forty years, and over that time period, the quality of surgery has improved.
are you sure there won't be a better treatment available in the future? what if it turns out there is really an underlying psychological problem that can be cured by e.g. stopping child abuse? or just psychotherapy to help with disorders related to child abuse?

>>10567783
What about implants that can cause infection and death?

This is what you want to argue about from that post? I regret bring it up, this is only going to get even dumber and more irrelevant with this argument. But who cares at this point, we are already arguing "it just common sense duh", so whatever.

>that one redditfag thats 40 cope posts deep ITT
>heh, I see you have no evidence to show that the suicide rate of 43% gets any worse
>checkmate bigots, genital mutilation is the FUTURE
>no I dont think we should treat the underlying pathology lmao cutting their dick off doesnt make it any worse

>>10567533
Wow, look at that beautifil dolphin. I think the same thing when I see a trans woman. I dont think "wow this is a medical abomination on par with Frankenstein," because that would be bigoted.

>>10567807
>Suicide rate

Wrong. Rate of suicide attempts. which all failed since they responded to the survey. Frogposter lies yet again.

>>10567793
No way to know. Age is never or rarely included as a factor, only the time of reassignment which could happen at any age.

>have a cock
>feel like a person who shouldn’t have a cock
>chop cock off
>feel better for a while
>die and face eternal blackness anyway

Imagine spending a whole night on a Sudanese image board defending a ‘if it feels good, do it’ worldview. If that’s the highest good in life (being happy/content for a few decades) then we might as well all kill ourselves. As a non-theist, I truly hope there is something else out there who’s disappointed in us, because that would at least entail that there’s more to life than self-satisfaction.

The answer to this will not be found on pubmed, though. So perhaps it’s time to go a little more fundamental and ask just what the point of all this tranny white knighting is if we’re all heading for the same hopeless place.

If there IS hope, the correct answer to dysphoria may not in fact be ‘feel like a woman? Chop that cock off’.

>>10567819
>typo
>omg he said rate not attempts what a LIAR
Go dilate and cope some more

>>10567801
i think e.g. breast implants are not ethical. cosmetic surgeries that involve potentially harmful implants are unethical. medical doctors who engage in such activities are ethically deficient. the only implants that are acceptable are ones that are proven to benefit the recipients with a high statistical probability, i can't argue the statistics exactly, but maybe at least 1 sigma for medical implants and 3-5 sigma for cosmetic implants

>>10567826
They do it because they make $250k+/yr

>>10567824
>typo

Are you frogposter? If so, I’m happy to concede that it was a mere “typo” instead of an intentional lie, as long as you’re happy to concede that, if read literally, that typo would make your statement a lie.

>Go dilate and cope some more

Not an argument.

>>10567826
>i think e.g. breast implants are not ethical. cosmetic surgeries that involve potentially harmful implants are unethical. medical doctors who engage in such activities are ethically deficient.

Nope. If the patient wants it, they should get it. Doctors should shoot people in the head for patients if the patient can provide the necessary currency.

>>10567822
But age or the time having lived after the surgery is important. Cancer surgery isn't of much use if the cancer grows back 5 years after the surgery. Your "consensus" is a snapshot of something that isn't fully understood yet, and like a good brainlet you bash the sceptics.

>>10567791
It is. The plant for the hormones is even in israel.
I don't give a fuck personally, any parents that let their children become trannies deserve to have their bloodline ended.

>>10567823
>If that’s the highest good in life (being happy/content for a few decades) then we might as well all kill ourselves.

That’s dumb as Hell. We might as well enjoy hedonistic pleasure while we exist instead of dying as soon as we can. You can go die if you think life sucks or something.

>>10567826
Its great to finally have your opinion on this.

>>10567832
>happy to concede
You're happy to be a soiboi faggot arent you? No one cares that you think some n~300 study concludes all mentally I'll fags should remove their genitals and that they definitely wont experience regret

>>10567823
Life's a bitch and then you die
That's why we get high
Cause you never know, when you're gonna go
Life's a bitch and then... you die

>>10567836
>But age or the time having lived after the surgery is important.

Sure, as long as the factor of improving surgical procedures is accounted for. A 60’s procedure won’t be as good as a 2012 one. Data specifically focused on this should be gathered.

>Your "consensus" is a snapshot of something that isn't fully understood yet, and like a good brainlet you bash the sceptics.

Wrong. Sex reassignment has been an effective surgery for gender dysphoria since before the 1950s.

>>10567841
i said i can't argue specific statistics, so i gave very vauge estimates. that can be left up to doctors who follow Hippocrates' oath. many doctors, however, are guilty of violating hippocrates' oath, and therefore they don't deserve to be doctors. sadly, greenbacks are responsible for their tendency to abandon their medical oath.

>>10567844
>You're happy to be a soiboi faggot arent you?

Not an argument,

>No one cares that you think some n~300 study concludes all mentally I'll fags should remove their genitals and that they definitely wont experience regret

Never claimed that no one experienced regret. Really sad how often you guys have to resort to lies.

>>10567853
How do you determine this effectiveness? Is it by survey of reassigned trannies a few years after the surgery? If there is data from the 1950s there should be long-term studies comparing differenct aspects in quality of life for non-reassigned vs reassigned trannies, like there is for countless other medical procedures or living habits.

>>10567858
>argument
Im not making an argument. I am commiting straight up ad hominem and telling you you are literally genetic trash lmao

>>10567855
No, it should be left to common sense, which Hippocrates oath obviously is, because its common sense. Common keep your arguments straight man.

>>10567875
hippocrates' oath _is_ common sense though; it is what all doctors make an oath to adhere to. it's their "common" wisdom for thousands of years, and throwing that to the wayside because of current trends in psychology is a recipe for disaster, just like lobotomizing women for "hysteria"

>>10567869
>Who’s Christine Jorgensen

>>10567870
K thanks now I can hide your posts.

>>10567888
Are you the guy I was replying to? For all your raving about scientific rigour as opposed to common sense you were quick to forget that one person doesn't make a sample.

>>10567898
i see you keep replying to other posters but you ignore my argument:
>>10567798
deflection? are you going to just keep claiming victory while disregarding arguments against your pro-tranny stance?

>>10567883
>What is the best treatment for patient X?
>surgery, medicine or no treatment.

>Okay doctors, lets put our common sense to good use here.

Seems reasonable.

>>10567670
can't argue with that

>>10567761
what are these "third genders" in history people talk about? I've heard this claim a lot but never any examples

>>10567116
This.
This is why plebians shouldn't be allowed access to scientific studies or even access to universities, they wildly misunderstand the data given and cause massive societal damage.

>>10567909
strawman argument. you seem to conflate psychiatry with actual medicine. in actual medicine there are objectively proven treatments to prolong life, like removing tumors or administering drugs to kill infectious organisms.

OTOH once you enter psychology land, the line between "administer frankenstein surgery" and "let's work on this person mentally using psychotherapy etc." is blurred. once you enter the psychological realm, the ethical judgement is way more subtle, especially when you need to choose between frankenstein surgery vs. psychotherapy or psychoactive drug prescriptions. and in that case i think it's pretty clear that the "noninvasive" approach adheres much more closely to the oath all doctors take

>>10567823
>>10567839
well even if you don't have any religious beliefs, obviously just doing what's the most comfortable isn't the epitome of happiness, arguably people who live a life of self-discipline and restraint are much happier than people who react to any momentary impulse

>all these seething trannies

Lmao. In the future this shit will be looked back upon as cruel, akin to how we perceive lobotomies.

>>10567494
What is a woman?

>>10568107
>the beta must ask others what a woman is

>>10568107
A miserable little pile of secrets

>>10567108
>have mental illness
>go to psych
>"hm... have you tried cutting your genitals off?"

Listening to the arguments made by trannies and hard libs on boards like this has made a better case for me of mental illness than any study ever could. Holy shit you’re all crazy.

>>10567108
Why are people wasting their time on gender dysphoria

>>10568107

>>10567923
There are no third genders.

In culture is usual a cast who are not nurturing and not caring the family, Shamans in many cultures for examples.

Intersex/herms are just males/females with undeveloped genitals.

>>10570524
>Intersex/herms are just males/females with undeveloped genitals.
I don't stand for tranny shit, but I give herms a pass because they had no choice in inheriting fucked up genetics (one too many or one too few chromosomes).

>>10567396
If I identify as a frog, does that make me one?

>>10567108
The chart is talking about P(disorder | dysphoria), not P(dysphoria | disorder)

>>10570565
yes. frogs are a social construct.

>>10567108
Endocrinology textbooks have endocrine disruptior such as Bisphenol as a cause for gender dysphoria.
Dad of tranz son here. I'm in a fucked up situation. Around the same time my kid came out my wife left me for a women (after 25 year relationship). Lawyer documents on the separation agreement gives me no say into the health, religion or education of my children. Now my kid (22) is going to have a historectumy. I don't think this type of surgery is in the best interest of someone with a mental illness.

>>10570606
do you have any theories on why ... uh, he decided to do it? i always assumed it had to do with child abuse, or “social contagion”

>>10570617
No, probably programming from support groups, infulencers. "He" won't talk to me after me trying for a few years now. I try but he doesn't respond back. I suspect the ovum of a health women of that age are an expensive commodity if you wish to create stem cell for therapies. I never abused my children, my ex-wife would not either.

>>10570633
>>10570606
You are a horrible parent, get off 4chan and go hug your son. If he gets depressed or worse its gonna be in part your fault for not accepting him.

>>10570633
>influencers
yes, the “social contagion”. was it social media who exposed your former daughter to that kind of influence? i only ask because even on /sci/ we get ideologue trannies shilling their shit in very vehement ways

>>10570684
You do not know me. I love my son. So much I would not want to see him take unnecessary risks. I love him unconditionally even if he doesn't love me back. Nothing is my fault, I try all the time to talk but he will not respond back.

>>10570691
Its not just social media. There are organization out there. Outreach groups.

>>10570684
You are a horrible person! I'm an old fag here. This chan is my chan and with you insinuating that if my child commits suicide its my fault. Why don't you go anhero yourself. And do a flip when your at it.

>>10570684
I take back everything but your a horrible person.

>>10570709
ugh. society today.

you want to know my opinion on this whole thing? and i admit it's farfetched, so you can ignore this if you want, but i'm just going to say it. the whole transexual meme was popularized within the group of people like Genesis P-Orridge and Marilyn Manson and the post-punk movement that was most prominent in the 80s-early 90s, who held close ties to satanism and Charles Manson worship. people from that same sphere, like for instance Nikolas Schreck, promoted neo-naziism. and both P-Orridge and Schreck were affiliated with satanism, in that ironic way of just promoting counter-cultural ideas that were meant to be antithetical to how age-old traditions and beliefs worked. (no, i'm not a conspiracy theorist, i just am pointing out how the nazipunk satanist movement was pro-transgender, regardless of their stupid superstitions about religious shit). the whole transgender movement is intimately connected with the counter-culturalism of post-punk goth nazis. it's an intentionally subversive culture meant to undermine common-sense values of western culture. the whole tranny + neonazi movement can be explained in terms of the nazipunk culture of the 1980s, and the fact that their nazi and tranny cultures survive is evidence that we all failed at maintaining a culture with values and reason.

all just my take on it

>>10570783
Industrial poisoning is my take, intentional or accident I don't know. What I do know is that the whole stage was set for this to take place so I would be logical if this was premeditated.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-moves-to-ban-bisphenol-a-in-baby-bottles-1.734118

>>10567375
If that actually allowed them to be productive members of society and cured their condition then that would be a good idea.

>>10570810
>refer to me as KING, or else, peasant
>call me by my fucking pronouns you cis-lord bigot
Yeah, no. These "people" are so fucking annoying

>>10570804
Its much more likely that ignorance, negligence, and greed are to blame for xenoestrogens than an intentional poisoning imo. But I wouldnt rule it out entirely... Populations are getting so large now that controlling the masses must be a huge priority for people in control

>>10567362
So are all people with cancer closeted coughers?

>>10567108
Trannies are mentally ill

>>10567108
this is a form of extension neglect. you're preferring specific presence of symptoms in cases of gender dysphoria over the general presence of symptoms irrespective of the cases involved.
symptoms in psychological disorders often overlap to a moderate to high degree with others, so misdiagnoses are common without the full picture/utilizing strong diagnostic methods.

>>10570582
Based

>>10571295
No, but you should have been closeted by your parents to avoid becoming this stupid

>>10572339
You just outed yourself as a retard by not realizing I was being ironic and making fun of the OP. Kill yourself.

>>10567366

Send them to psychiatric institutions. Pic related is NOT treatment, it's mutilation. Treating transgenderism by giving in to their delusions and doing reassignment surgery is like treating anorexia by letting them starve themselves.

Trannydom's main cause is fashion as proven by a study, and said fashion is spread by the jews for a simple reason, jews have a monopoly on tranny hormone production and so make a killing, literally for 40% of trannies.

The destruction of goy nations is a side-benefit.

>>10571296
Amen

>>10567380
This has to be bait

>>10567524
>Gender is declarative
Gender is clearly negotiated, otherwise these people wouldn't want so badly to undergo radical cosmetic surgery and misgendering wouldn't be seen as an existential threat. Even fucking Contrapoints accidentally admits to wanting transition based on how it will(hopefully) make other people treat him.

>>10573178
Jews have no Logos, this is no bait.

>>10567108
Yes.

The best cure for depression is taking hormones and cutting off your balls.