/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10523958
taxation isn't theft

>>10523960
Define “taxation”. Define “theft”.

>>10523962
>Tax
is a mandatory financial charge or some other type of levy imposed upon a taxpayer by a governmental organization in order to fund various public expenditures
>Theft
is the taking of another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it

>>10523972
And what is a taxpayer? Are you born into the category, or do you choose of your own volition to consent to it?

>>10523977
you choose

>>10523992
By what means do you choose?

>>10524004
you choose to own land, you choose to buy products, you choose to work, in general you don't have to live here if you don't want to....there is a choice

If I stab you in the heart, then did I gift my knife to you? Same thing if I cum in your mouth.

>>10523977
Go be homeless.

>Taking someone's property is harming them
No it isn't

>>10523958
Its just the alias of a series. Dont think about it too much, nigger.

>>10523977
>if you don't like being a slave, why don't you just start your own plantation, or swim to another continent

>>10523958
It is imperfection of decimal notation. This ambiguity causes pain in certain proofs and it is better if you don't allow this kind of "two symbol one number" numbers to exist. It should be eradicated but I don't know how

>>10524211
>don't want to swim to Antarctica? Wow I guess you must really like being a slave then

>>10524222
1 #YOLO 1
#YOLO = “is”
1 = 1
= = “is equivalent to”

>>10524009
>>10523972
Neither of these replies explain how taxation isn't theft.
>mandatory
>imposed
By what means?

>>10523992
>you choose
Ahahaha. I'm pretty sure if everyone had a choice they wouldn't pay taxes.

>>10524009
>you choose to own land, you choose to buy products, you choose to work,
And then the government comes and enforces the tax. Nowhere is it explained how that isn't theft.

>in general you don't have to live here if you don't want to....there is a choice
That's not an explanation either. That's an ultimatum that avoids the question proposed. It's either theft or it's not. It's fine if you answer "okay it's theft" because it is BY DEFINITION. It is a MANDATORY garnishment of pay in which those who evade are PUNISHED. AKA "you're stealing my shit by threatening me with punishment without my consent.

>>10523958
they are not the same and whoever decided it is is patently retarded. It exists solely for dumb shits like you to argue about it.

>>10523977
Well in the US you owe taxes via the social contract you implicitly sign by continuing to be a citizen here. If you don't want to pay taxes, vote to change that, persuade your fellow citizens to vote with you, run for office, or leave.

It is your choice.

>>10525073
Wrong. Theft is defined as illegal seizure of property. Taxation is therefore not theft.

>>10525091
So if I don't pay my taxes then nobody is going to forcibly take it away from me or punish me?

>>10525101
Because taxation is not illegal and who defines/enforces legality is the government.
>Well that is unjust
That has nothing to do with it being theft. If you think it's theft in principle, well that's not really a matter of the legal systems but your own worldview and I doubt you are going to convince people to join it by discussing meme lolbertarian reddit phrases

>>10523958

Then why have 3/3, 4/4, etc?

>>10525143
>Because taxation is not illegal and who defines/enforces legality is the government.
>It's not illegal because a non-liable entity stole it

Still not an answer to "is taxation theft". However, it does answer who will enforce and punish me if I don't pay.

>That has nothing to do with it being theft.
You're money and property is being taken from not complying with something you never agreed to. Last time I checked that was called "theft". Stop trying to weasel out of an explanation. Explanations don't use semantics.

>If you think it's theft in principle
No retard, I don't "think" it is when it's a goddamn empirical fact. Your shit will be stolen by force if you do not comply with a rule you never agreed to.

>well that's not really a matter of the legal systems but your own worldview and I doubt you are going to convince people to join it by discussing meme lolbertarian reddit phrases.
It has nothing to do with my opinion or politics you question dodging ninny. Taking property by force is theft. Taking property by using a tool called "politics" is also theft regardless of however the politics particularizes the method of "theft". It's the same as robbing someone using a knife vs with a gun, you're just using a different tool to do it.

You consented by staying in the country. Go live in the ocean or some random island if you dont want to be taxed

>>10525299
>You consented by staying in the country.
Wrong, my parents consented for me and a contract and number were assigned to me without my consent or conscious awareness. Keep digging the theft rabbit hole, at this level we're now up to "human trafficking tier" thievery going on.

>Go live in the ocean or some random island if you dont want to be taxed
How about you not take my shit for doing nothing and leave me the fuck alone?
>Oh right because they would rather not do that and take my shit by force because they want it instead

>>10523958
>thus
>ancap
wow the neckbeard smell..

>>10523958
Haha! You fool. By consenting to live in civilised society you've implicitly consented to giving up some financial levy to maintain that society. Will you continue to consent or fall outside of societies protections?

>>10525321
>Wrong, my parents consented for me and a contract and number were assigned to me without my consent or conscious awareness.
Your parents own you until you're 18. They sign all your papers and make your choices until you're grown up. Blame them for keeping you here. Not the government. However now you're old enough to leave whenever you want to. Just build a raft and have fun sailing. There is nothing keeping you here.
>How about you not take my shit for doing nothing and leave me the fuck alone?
You have the government's air, water, military protection and welfare. This land belongs to the government. Not you. Want the land for yourself? Go declare on it

>>10525362
*go declare war on the government

>>10525362
>Blame them for keeping you here. Not the government.
My parents did not assign me a social security card and selective services number. All they assigned me was a name, which is another tool the government uses to locate me in order to steal from me.

>However now you're old enough to leave whenever you want to. Just build a raft and have fun sailing. There is nothing keeping you here.
Wow, that still does not answer the question. You're evading again. Taxation is theft.

>You have the government's air
Lol

water
No

military protection
You and I and everyone else ARE the military retard.

>This land belongs to the government
>entities can claim possessions
Will shadows start pickpocketing me?

>Want the land for yourself? Go declare on it
Has implies possession. All I and you have is ourselves. To "claim land" is as dumb as claiming a spot in space. It literally cannot be possessed.

>>10523958
Every real number can be expressed infinitely many ways you retard

>>10525484
>My parents did not assign me a social security card and selective services number.
Your parents refused to leave the country. That was their choice
>Wow, that still does not answer the question. You're evading again. Taxation is theft
Taxation can't be theft because you are willing staying here therefore you are willing subjecting yourself to taxes.

>water
>No
>military protection
You and I and everyone else ARE the military retard.
The government is a service that you pay for. Their services include owning land in their area, having good businesses/jobs in the area and using their money when necessary
>entities can claim possessions
Government can as they are made up of a group of people. Have you ever heard of "government property" before.
> To "claim land" is as dumb as claiming a spot in space. It literally cannot be possessed.
It literally can be claimed though. You can buy land or call a territory yours as long as you're able to enforce this ownership

>>10523958
>pic
When you own property you agree to abide by the rules of the land in which the property resides in. It's not theft if it's consensual, and if you don't like it, either don't by the property or fuck off somewhere else with rules you agree with.

>pic
When you own property you agree to abide by the rules of the land in which the property resides in. It's not theft if it's consensual, and if you don't like it, either don't by the property or fuck off somewhere else with rules you agree with.

>>10523958
>pic
When you own property you agree to abide by the rules of the land in which the property resides in. It's not theft if it's consensual, and if you don't like it, either don't buy the property or fuck off somewhere else with rules you agree with.

>>10525484
You must be 18 to post here.

>>10525595
>Your parents refused to leave the country. That was their choice
I am not my parents.

>Taxation can't be theft because you are willing staying here therefore you are willing subjecting yourself to taxes.
This is besides the point because I am still being forced to pay something. Also no it is not a law to pay taxes for citizenship, it is automatically granted from birth. "Staying here" does not subject you to taxes, only owning something of value that the government wants to steal a part of subjects you to tax.
Like how you pay a mafia for protection; you never wanted nor needed the mafia or their protection but they show up anyway. You're forced to pay it or uncle Tony will break your knuckles for doing business in "his" neighborhood.

>The government is a service that you are forced to pay for.
FTFY

>Their services include owning land in their area, having good businesses/jobs in the area and using their money when necessary
No that's what people do.

>Government can as they are made up of a group of people. Have you ever heard of "government property" before.

Yeah the group of people is "we the people" because that's what all governments consist of. Time passes and memories are short though, and through all the confusion this translates into "people of the special interest". These special people end up *losing money* but because so many people like you exist, nobody ends up giving a shit. They actually treat it as normal.

>It literally can be claimed though. You can buy land or call a territory yours as long as you're able to enforce this ownership
>a bit of matter can own another bit of matter

Literally not how it works though. That's why everyone and everything is different in some way. Anyway this is all besides the point because you STILL have not explained how taxation is not theft. All you've done is describe the process of how a human reifies their own concept of "ownership".

10525673
You must post arguments to get (you's)

>>10525828

>I am not my parents.
Sorry kid. Underaged people cant just run around whenever they want

>This is besides the point because I am still being forced to pay something.
You arent because you can leave when you want to.

>Also no it is not a law to pay taxes for citizenship, it is automatically granted from birth.
Yes and as a citizen you have a duty to help the place. Otherwise you can leave.

>"Staying here" does not subject you to taxes, only owning something of value that the government wants to steal a part of subjects you to tax.
But if you dont want your money to be "stolen" then leave. The government was here before you therefore you are on its property

>Like how you pay a mafia for protection; you never wanted nor needed the mafia or their protection but they show up anyway. You're forced to pay it or uncle Tony will break your knuckles for doing business in "his" neighborhood.
No it's more like renting a house. You signed the deal to live on someone's property. If you don't want go pay the money, you have to find a new place. Otherwise you're just violating their property.
>The government is a service that you are forced to pay for because you continue to live on its land

>No that's what people do.
Yes. Fact that you're not fighting some island lemur over food means that you are benefiting from living in society rather than in the middle of the Pacific.

>Time passes and memories are short though, and through all the confusion this translates into "people of the special interest". These special people end up *losing money* but because so many people like you exist, nobody ends up giving a shit. They actually treat it as normal.
If you're so mad about living in society, just leave. Make sure to take everything with you.

>Anyway this is all besides the point because you STILL have not explained how taxation is not theft.
It's not theft because you are willingly subjecting yourself to it.

>>10525828
It’s really time for me to leave this Canadian petrified feces forum if it’s just Ayn Rand reading underage b& shitposting.

>>10523958
why are american cartoons so fucking ugly?

>>10523958
>Why do we even need 0.5 when 1/2 exists?
>Why do we even need 3.141... when pi exists?
>Why do we even need 1000 m when 1 Km exists?
really?

>>10523958
If 0.333... exists and is just 1/3, why does it exist?

>>10526077
i loved that cartoon
t. pole

>>10525205
I actually have no idea why those symbols exist. I can’t think of a situation where I would write 3/3 instead of 1, except for in pure mathematics which is literally a waste of life.

>>10527144
>fractions are only useful in pure math
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

>>10527155
Undivided whole fractions which only possibly exist to be “1”? Yeah. They’re pointless symbols. When you see them you immediately mentally translate them to “1”.
Please, if I’m wrong, give me an example of when you would use 12/12. Or 6/6. Or 97/97. Or any other “fraction” that is just “1”.

>>10527161
If you're doing algebra involving fraction bars, you'll sometimes going to end up with those fractions as an intermediate before you write down =1

>>10527155
Also, 3/3 isn’t even a fraction. Fraction, from the Latin “fractio”, from “frangere”, meaning “to break”.
2/3 is a broken “1”. 3/3 is not broken. Etymologically, it isn’t a fraction. It’s 1.

>>10527167
You break one into 3 pieces. you have 3 of those 3 pieces and, within the context of the mathematical operation, they are separate pieces. A fuckton of algebraic operations exist because you can essentially break down 1 into arbitrary fractions before doing some arithmetic fuckery with them.

>>10527169
Let’s say I have a loaf of bread. I cut it into 3 slices. How many loaves of bread do I have?

>>10523972
>to fund various public expenditures
There are many things done with taxpayer dollars without the taxpayers consent or even knowledge of.
Funding false wars is not a public service. Owning a mansion is not a public service. Pocketing taxpayer dollars at all should be considered treason and yet it is done all over the world. People abuse power. Not shocking really. The service world government's provide these days is enslavement. Many powerful individuals enjoy their "free" luxury and will abuse power to keep it. Even if it brings more harm than good. If you even read this thanks.

>>10527195
You three of a third of a loaf of bread that you can conveniently distribute among your family.

>>10523958
At least some brainlets don't understand the sameness of these numbers and it's a lot of fun. So the symbol is very useful (unironically).

Do you know the diagonal argument (uncountability of reals)? If not, here's a brief proof. Once you're familiar think in what number notation (e.g. base 13, 45 etc) the algorithm is correct without changes (the only change approved is 9 -> base-1).

========================

Assume we can count the reals, so
1st: 0, a b c d ...
2nd: 0, * & % $ ...
3rd: 0, ъ й щ ш ...
... and so on.
these are reals (in (0, 1) interval) "counted" and symbols are some digits.
We build the uncounted number by replacing the 1st digit in the 1st place ("a" here) by some different digit which (!) is not 0 or 9 (because of this .999 thing yeah). So we replace the 2st digit of the 2st number accordingly and so on. The digits we put form an integer which is not in the list. Contradiction.

>>10523958
Also an interesting thing to think about is the different notation systems, for example, base e or pi. And there's a crazy degradation when we come to the base 1, I guess it made me laugh when I discovered this.

>>10525143
Holy shit. So you are saying the government decides what is and isn't. In your mind the government is basically God and can get away with whatever they want even if it is detrimental to the very existence of the species. Please see reason. The government at least in America was designed as a service to it's people. That has changed quite drastically however and I am not implying I have a perfect government in mind, but I can tell you that power can be abused by very dumb people. People who don't deserve that power in the first place.

>>10523972
Kinda goes hand in hand doesn't it

>>10523960
Do you fucking see what you have done to this thread??
Fucking 13/10 keks

>>10523977
citizenship is not compulsory

>>10527235
With the US's law that imposes citizenship if you're born in US soil, it sort of is. There are methods that allow you to discard your own citizenship but it's not easy if you're not immigrating to another country.

>>10526663
1/3 amd .333 are not exactly equivalent either, they're just the closest crossover approximations we have in our base 10 system.
For all intents and purposes though, they are interchangeable. Maybe if we ever approach light speed or some shit well need to be super exact, but like even then I don't see why. The difference is less than 0.000...1

>>10527246
>0.000...1
retarded finitist using their own undefined symbology again. That shit never occurs in proper established math

>>10523958
So literally anything conveying its law may be and is included in mathematics. It's as valid as the 3/3 thing mentioned here.

Oh, another crazy thing is to define reals as limits of rational sequences (yeah it's natural and the decimal notation is like a subset of this thing), so if you consider this sequence as a symbol for some real number you get literally a continuum of .999 writings. (below is the proof).

As we know reals form a continuum, consider the [0,1] interval and let x be in it.
Divide the thing by two, the right half - again, so you get (0,1/2] , [1/2, 3/4] and so on intervals. Then if you choose a rational number from each (semi)interval you get a sequence -> 0.9999 = 1. Then choose the numerical system you like (I prefer base 13) and divide each interval into [base] subintervals and pick a number in the one corresponding to the writing of x. So each of the sequences formed represent a number in x (in fact, we spared a continuum of points and our set of sequences is only dense at 1), and thus there's a continuum of sequences converging (=representing)/to 0.9999.

Correct me if there's a mistake here.

>>10527246
I've heard something about the rational approximations of pi and how it has to do with its irrationality measure. Is this related to the numerical system thing (like, we cannot approximate some numbers in some system as well as in another?) I understand basic maths but I can't grasp this thing right now.

>>10526048
>Sorry kid. Underaged people cant just run around whenever they want
Not what I'm arguing

>You arent because you can leave when you want to.
> Underaged people cant just run around whenever they want

>Yes and as a citizen you have a duty to help the place. Otherwise you can leave.
>pursuit of happiness means helping everyone else more lazy than you
A "right" cannot be taken nor granted under the natural law.

>But if you dont want your money to be "stolen" then leave.
So it is theft? Thank you. That's what the argument was about the whole time.

>The government was here before you therefore you are on its property
the government consists of people who represent me so therefore it's my land as well.

>No it's more like renting a house.
I am essentially a part of the government therefore I am the landlord.

>You signed the deal to live on someone's property.
This is a false equivalency argument.

>Fact that you're not fighting some island lemur over food means that you are benefiting from living in society rather than in the middle of the Pacific.
No it means I'm minding my business by letting uneducated retards fight over their own emotions. If everyone did this then there wouldn't be a problem.

>If you're so mad about living in society, just leave. Make sure to take everything with you.
You've provided good arguments supporting why and how it can be beneficial but you fail and understand the primer to all of that. It IS theft no matter what way you try and disguise it so it's better to not disguise it at all and just acknowledge the truth of the matter. "Taxations is theft, but that's a good thing and here is why.." is a more proper argument than flat out denying what it actually is then trying to reify the shadow you've made.

>It's not theft because you are willingly subjecting yourself to it.
No part of it is "Willing".

>>10526070
>comparing an argument to someone who believes that you are your beliefs.
Stupid, dumb, western existentialist scum.

>>10525101
Theft is a crime that is defined by the legal system. Taxation, by definition, cannot be theft.

>>10527395
>it's not theft when the person who steals from you doesn't believe it's theft

Appeal to authority and Bandwagon. Not an argument

>>10527414
you're right, there is no argument, it isn't theft

>>10527590
>you're right, there is no argument,

No there isn't. Taxation is thievery with more particulars included. Prove otherwise or STFU.

>it isn't theft
According to appeal to authority fallacy no it isn't. Prove otherwise, don't just act like a child and plug your ears ignoring the points made.

>>10527414
Government isn't a person. Not an argument.

>>10527613
>appeal to authority implies a person is involved
>the ideas a groupthink makes and enforces has to be an actual "person" in order to attribute a fallacy to it.

Ridiculous. You are not your beliefs.

>>10527608
>going to the moon was just eating sandwiches with more space ships included
retard

>>10527782
Non-sequitur

>>10523958
>taking someone's property is harming them
Oh is that why we all collectively decided that all the oil in the world should be owned by a few corporations while I wasn't born owning shit?

>>10527608
You can’t use informal fallacies to argue semantics. That’s stupid. You can’t use them at all unless you want to sound like an autistic teenager.
Taxation being theft isn’t meant literally in the first place. It’s libertarian rhetoric.
Lots of Xs are also Ys if you want to be creative. It’s not interesting, not profound, and school mark fallacies aside, it will convince no one who needs to be convinced.

>>10528077
>Taxation being theft isn’t meant literally in the first place.
According to who? Libertarians? Irrelevant anyway because that isn't the argument.
>You can’t use informal fallacies to argue semantics.
I'm not arguing over the meaning of words the only people doing that are the ones differentiating tax and theft without a proper explanation when it is a distinction without a difference.
Both taxing and theft are taking property by the means of force or forced compliance. There is nothing to argue about this empirical fact.

>>10528178
You don’t even know what theft is. Theft doesn’t need to involve force. Robbery involves forcible theft.

>>10528178
Here. Read and learn.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/differences-between-theft-robbery.html

>>10527246
Wrong.