/sci/ - Science & Math

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1106637988979712000

Starliner slips to August...

https://twitter.com/austinbarnard45/status/1106646298445467649

More pics of the Hopper awaiting installation

>>10469855
Kill yourself.

>>10469913
just post spacex shit
he can't post delta for long, due to it being a meme rocket

>>10469861
Oddly, I really like the Delta IV but I don't know why. I just really like the aesthetics of it for some reason.

>>10469920
Kill yourself.

>>10469923
Yeah, it's a neat looking rocket. Too bad it's so fucking expensive.

I wonder if they could develop a Delta Super-Heavy consisting of 5 boosters in the 1st stage. Payload-wise it should be in SLS-territory.

OHNONONONO HAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHA

>>10469935
How much would you pay to take a ride on that thing in space?

>>10469928
Fucking summerfags need to lurk more.

>>10469935
>lets just completely ignore the fact its all from the heat shield and the skin itself is fine
Just needs a good power wash and it'll be good to go.

>>10469940
>its all from the heat shield and the skin itself is fine
Source?

Now that delta iv production is restarting after nasa ordering several ones for moon missions can we safely say spacex is utterly btfo?

>>10469920
>Call a rocket Delta
>make it out of cylinders

>>10469928
Does someone have a price breakdown of which parts costs what on the Delta IV? I'd like to see what exactly makes it expensive.

As for the cost itself, yeah that's not a problem considering that Delta IV craters to the military or high priority science payloads where money is of little concern, but high performance is necessary.

>>10469939
Literally, add moar boosters.

>>10469952
>Call a rocket Falcon
>Not actually a bird
>Call a rocket Starship
>Can only fly to Mars

>>10469952
>Call rocket Falcon 9
>Doesn't have a single bird on it

>>10469962
>>10469964
>call rocket falcon named after some childish star wars kiddie shit

>>10469939
Ah yes, the Delta autism chart...there's an Atlas version as well.

>>10469945
It's in the name: ablative heatshields ablate, the material that makes up the shield turning into hot gas, some of this gas cools on the skin of the vehicle forming a brown residue. You can see the residue cracking and peeling off in the picture.

>>10469968
Dragon 1 also has an ablative heat shield and doesn't look half that bad. You're full of shit.

>>10469968
And those fairings are hilariously long.

>>10469967
>Call rocket Saturn
>It doesn't castrate it's father

>>10469969
You've obviously never viewed Dragon 1 from the windward side after re-entry then, that makes sense considering SpaceX always take post-recovery pictures from the away side.

>>10469873
Yes but dragon-2 will need total copv redesign meaning the crew flight is massively delayed.

>>10470011
It's still likely to happen in Q3 2019 by all sources, so whatever their redesigning it doesn't seem world ending. It'll probably fly in 2019 unlike Starliner which is almost guaranteed not to at this point.

>>10470005
based and milspace

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiMMeteLRek

the average spacex fanboy

>>10470058
The irony of your post is that it is already almost certain sls will fly after the bfr.

>>10470063
At this rate it'll be a close call

>>10470063
>bfr
What?

Really cool KSP video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pRLr6Iu2z1g

>>10469935
Every Apollo capsule looks like this. No reason to make the entire shell with "heat shield" material just to keep it clean.

Honestly, paying for access to a forum isn't worth it...

>>10470157
Not anymore when social media promotes leaking.

>>10470158
But I'm the only person doing the leaking, you won't find these images anywhere else unless you repost them...

>>10470157
Does L2 actually offer anything, or why exactly is it behind a pay wall? Some sort of verified experts to post there who are getting paid for it or somethning?

>>10470164
Based

>>10470161
>>10470157
so strange seeing this done out in the open, usually its in tightly controlled, neat and clean white walled facilities or at least indoors

ULA is going to launch a Delta IV tonight:

https://youtu.be/kNU46m8Hi6Q

T-1 hour

>>10470173
Elon shills defend this by saying that the next generation of rockets should be able to be built on the field. Mars or the Moon won't have tightly controlled, neat and clean white walled facilities in the early stages of colonization.

>>10470165
You get all the nice photos from Nomadd I'm posting, updates from KSC people about the range's launch schedule (I knew the upcoming Falcon Heavy launch date about a week before it was made public) and sometimes information from within programs that the general public still doesn't know e.g. Starliner problems. Also there are loads of historical photographs and videos in L2 that aren't publicly available or are hard to get.

>>10469940
not to mention it is a single use capsule.

I feel sorry for this guy...

>>10470181
Why are they not posting publically though? Are they getting money to only post it there?

>>10470187
>60k liters of LOX

Damn. Wonder how much they'll use per flight.

>>10470181
>starliner
Not mining for info seeing as how I'm considering l2 access too, but here we are.
Was the leak a big deal?
For hydrazine spill and essentially 100% fault rate of the responsible devices the coverage seemed awfully tame.

>>10470190
Not really, it's being used for the abort and later capsules will be reused for cargo runs. It probably won't be particularly reusable, but I think extra waterproofing makes it more reusable than D1.

>>10470194
I don't know, the only reason I got the account was because I was pissed at L2ers lauding over non-pay pigs like they were lesser beings for not knowing the whole story. I Wanted to start a communist revolution by seizing the means of information to spread it to normal people.

>>10470200
Basically OFT-1 capsule got fucked by the spillage, had to be switched out with the original OFT-2 capsule which is now the new OFT-1 capsule, Boeing have to build another brand-new capsule for OFT-2 because of this.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/06/nasa-confirms-eus-sls-block-ib-design-em-2-flight/

>EM-1, the uncrewed, debut flight of SLS in its Block I configuration, was (and still officially is) slated for December 2017.

>EM-2, the first crewed flight of SLS (still in its Block I configuration with the ICPS) would then follow in 2021.

>EM-3, the first flight of the EUS, would then see SLS fly an uncrewed cargo mission in 2023.

I think the delta launch got moved sooner by about 45 minutes. They are going live in about 15 minutes and launching in about 35 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNU46m8Hi6Q

ULA is LIVE

https://youtu.be/kNU46m8Hi6Q

>>10470209
Based.

>>10470194
no, its support for the servers; keeping it controlled makes it more attractive.

Also, places were insiders feel more comfortable to talk about rumors or things they picked up at a bar.
>>10470200

oh it was bad alright. the capsule is out the running, let's say it like that.

Honestly, L2 is worth it for the amount of time I spent there reading.

>>10470221
>no, its support for the servers
No, they literally let companies post advertising and job posting threads to keep the server up.

>>10470216
My bad, actually moved back by 13 minutes

>>10470221
>Also, places were insiders feel more comfortable to talk about rumors or things they picked up at a bar.

You mean LARPers can LARP and people actually believe them.

>>10470126
thx fren great video

>>10470187
god damn elites, taking all our oxygen

>>10470212
>(and still officially is) slated for December 201
lel

>>10470187
And actually, I wonder if they'll be adding any on-site oxygen and nitrogen production since, you know, the two together is like 99% of our atmosphere.

>>10470227
You can believe that if you want, but most the prominent guys in L2 are recognisable. For example, the original information about the Raptor getting trucked to McGregor was posted by Eric Ralph of Teslarati; actually most of Teslarati's 'scoops' seemingly come from other people's L2 posts about SpaceX, which I feel is scummy as fuck.

>>10470241
teslarati is like if eric berger was a news website

ULA is live

https://youtu.be/kNU46m8Hi6Q

T-15 min

>>10470244
Tom Cross is absolutely wasted as a photographer on that literal shill news outlet, just like how Berger's admittedly impressive inside sources are wasted on his mediocre writing...

>>10470011
>Yes but dragon-2 will need total copv redesign meaning the crew flight is massively delayed.
What happened? Did the tanks almost fail on reentry or something?

>>10470252
>Berger's admittedly impressive inside sources

Oh it's a medium launch? BOOOOOORIIIIING

>>10469952
Delta is because it was the 4th variant of Thor after Thor-Able, Thor-Star Able, and Thor-Agenda. also the the 4th letter in the military ABC is Delta.

>>10470259
This

>>10470257
>We're working several other things on this vehicle that we've just discovered. And so I would say the vehicle is not fully qualified. So, in other words, we haven't set the total envelope of where some of the hardware can operate and how it can be used. But we know the hardware is good enough to go do this demonstration flight. In fact, we want it to go to flight to see if there's something else we missed. And we fully expect to learn some things on this flight. And then we'll go through a more rigorous problem solving methods just like I described for you on the COPV. But we'll do that with each one of these things. There's some stuff in the thruster area. There's some stuff in the parachute area. There's some stuff in the propellant system area. Some more Composite Overwrapped Pressure Vessels actually on the Dragon tank. Et cetera, et cetera.

>>10470209
Thanks for taking the paypig hit for us senpai, enraging other paypigs is excellent. A true anon.

At least ULA hires a proper cutie to host the thing and not some social justice minority hiring.

>>10470259
Medium is the coolest variant, Heavy is overrated

>>10470267
>1 engine is cooler than 3

uhuh

>>10470259
There are like two heavies left until retirement.

HODL

>>10470156
>doesn't value rhethoric
I can tell by that monster of a sentence.

Don't make me say the H word

>>10470156
I can't trust anyone that can't format a fucking comma in line properly on an advert for their 500 million dollar rocket.

>>10470281
Holocaust?

>>10470281
What about the S word? :)

>>10470283
Especially one that can't go a single launch without a technical-issue induced delay

>>10470283
Why exactly are rockets so expensive, anyways? They're just fuel tanks with engines attached.

>>10470291
>Especially one that can't go a single launch without a technical-issue induced delay

lol holding is the most normal thing there is in launching. say whatever you want about ula but they are reliable. they rarely delay their launches.

>>10470293
They aren't. That's why almost everyone throws them away after single use.

>>10470298
Have you ever watched a Delta 4 launch? Atlas is fine but I don't think there's been a Delta launch I've watched which hasn't been scrubbed once or more, remember NROL-71?

>tfw you get another issue while trying to fix an issue

>>10470246
>ULA is live

NOT SO FAST

Fucking launch already

made the mistake of checking out the live-chat on youtube
we need another comet strike

>>10470371
which stream has chat enabled?
the official ULA one doesn't

New launch time - 7:52 PM EST

>>10470371
But the chat is disabled?

>>10470374
If you search "ULA" there will be a few space video related channels that mirror the official stream with chat

>>10470281
HOOOOLLLLLLLLDDDDDD

more time!

Scrub. Hangar queen.

>>10470374
>>10470377
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKDuyIfTc7c

>>10470264
That's rough.
But I guess it's nice that they're looking into things despite the complete mission success.
Challenger sure could've used that kind of mindset.

Why do they always extend the launch time over and over again, instead of just indefinitely postponing until all issues are actually resolved?

>>10470411
Because they could launch if they fix the issue within the launch window.

FUCKING FINALLY

It'll explode.

if it blows up I will kill myself on livestream

>>10470478
When you want to be 100% certain you kys

>>10470485
this isn't an iranian launch

>>10470488
>isn't Iranian
>rocket covered in Iranian symbols
Nice try

>>10470259
This is the next to last Medium launch. Last one is a GPS launch later this year.

Then they'd better be right about Vulcan...

>>10470293
>"""(((JUST)))"""

devil is in the details. That's why they call it rocket plumbing.

Watching the RL-10 try and make orbit is physically painful

>>10470512
very efficient, but underpowered. It was even more painful to see it work at unnatural angles trying to make up for first stage underperformance.

>>10470515
I feel sorry for the Starliner crew members, even though they'll have 2 RL-10s it'll still take a millennium to lug such a comparatively heavy payload into orbit. It wouldn't surprise me if one of them starts asking "are we there yet?" mid-flight.

>>10470196
Ah, my fleshlight just shipped.

>>10470515
Comparatively.

Correct me if I'm wrong but

>>10470560
You are wrong, because of

help

>>10470576
Get the Trajetories mod and next time aim for land.

>>10470576
"Have you tried turning it off and back on?"
On a serious note, have you tried manually retracting and redeploying the underground legs? That might make the game realize that the spacecraft isn't underground and pop it out. Also, I don't see a way to return to orbit. Is this a one way mission?

>>10470584
no he's in the liquid on eve

>>10470620
Really? I didn't know that, I haven't gotten to Eve yet so I didn't know that it's lands and oceans are almost the same color.

>>10470626
Yeah it got me for my first probe
best option is to send down a vehicle which can move on land and sea

*kills your kerbals*

>>10470631
Are air intakes still "hydrophobic"?

>>10470654
why would you want air intakes on eve

>>10470658
The "hydrophobic" nature of air intakes (if it still exists I haven't tested it in a while) makes them useful for boats. Just line the bottom of a vehicle with them and they will continually push the vehicle out of the water such that there will be very little friction between the vehicle and the water.

>>10470156
Weird that ULA would advertise for SpaceX

>>10470212
>EM-1, the uncrewed, debut flight of SLS in its Block I configuration, was (and still officially is) slated for December 2017
the epitome of fingers-in-ears-going LALALALALALALALALALALA

>>10469950
Aren't atlas and delta both going to be phased out after Vulcan is flying?

>tfw its an age of space exploration again
>You might actually see people on mars in your lifetime
I don't want to die lads

>>10470750
Considering how much ULA wants to hold onto their public image of being reliable, they may hold on to Atlas and Delta for a while until Vulcan proves itself. Just to be on the safe side.

>>10470807
if it wasn't for SLS we would be getting ready to land on mars now after several years on lunar orbit/surface

>>10470011
every fucking time they redesign the COPV tanks, they explode
that's what blew up the AMOS satellite btw, they really should just leave them alone

>tfw the next space race is about a commercialized rocket companies and NASA wanting to go first on mars
>Tfw moonbase soon

Ksp is awesome
Does anyone know if the RSS/RO mod will be updated soon?

>>10470822
>RSS/RO mod
Is the mod worth it?

>>10470157
>>10470161
I honestly appreciate you giving the middle finger to Chris on this one, the man's a cock

>>10470157
>>10470161
>>10470169
Is it just me or is that thing being installed in one of the off-center engine bays? This thing won't fly until it's two brothers show up then

>>10470855
That's what I thought too. Maybe static fires?

>>10470281
hydrogen

>>10470209
vive la révolution!
>>10470240
atmosphere liquidation towers have kind of a big footprint, but it's a possibility
reducing the transport distance for the stuff could be worth it if they start really pumping out launches from Boca Chica, they already have a methane plant literally up the road and across the river
>>10470857
the thing is basically a flying rocket test stand, they didn't have the plumping or storage to do mission duration burns before this, so it makes sense to to use this brand new tankage you've just built for that purpose
no need for it to fly for that

>>10470816
I thought they had already developed an Inconel helium tank option exclusively for crew launches?

>>10470890
I literally don't know, I'm not an insider
I haven't heard anything about that, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

>>10470897
Looks like they were told to at least examine it

>>10470901
what the everloving fuck, are they still worried about solid oxygen forming in the second stage helium COPVs? Isn't it extremely well understood how and why that happened?

>>10470918
SpaceX isn't, but NASA is made up of cranky old dudes who know everything

>>10470928
okay I did a bit of googling, and apparently COPVs are black magic
are there helium impermeable substances with a CoTE closer to that of the carbon overwrap to prevent the buckling?

>>10470940
>apparently COPVs are black magic
How so? I mean, the concept is simple enough: make a super-thin vessel that's impermeable to whatever you want to contain at pressure, then wrap it with a "sock" of material that has an extremely high tensile strength to keep that vessel from deforming/breaching.

>>10470972
yeah but how do you anchor that, and then the whole thing starts at room temperature but is then dunked in liquid oxygen and filled with liquid helium, and the thermal stresses and the anchoring and thermal expansion/contraction (because you're cooling it) and different thermal expansion coefficients it just seems like a mess

>>10470972
I've worked with COPV's before. The main problem with them is that the composite over wrap doesn't have the same properties in every direction unlike a metal like aluminum, and those properties vary significantly depending on how it was wrapped. This makes it very difficult to predict the expected performance of a COPV without testing it, and makes it difficult to grantee that two identically made COPVs would act the same.

Also what >>10470986 said, composites are a pain to attach to stuff.

>>10470209
God bless you, anon

>>10470998
>make it the same every time
>no two things give the same results, no matter how consistent you try to make the manufacturing
black fucking magic

>>10470986
>how do you anchor that
I expect you don't, not really. That's the obvious secret and flaw with COPVs: because of the differences between material properties of the bottle and the composite wrap, you have to accept that the best you're going to get is a wrap that prevents deformation beyond the elastic zone under operating conditions.

Yeah, it feels like black magic to someone used to a lot more precision. To me, it just feels like carpentry.

>>10471038
you don't want carpentry when if you have a gap you can get solid oxygen forming against the aluminum subskin due to being cooled by the liquid helium

>>10471047
No. Obviously you should get the world's best carpenter to solve the issue.

Jesus Christ.

>>10471047
That's why SpaceX determined it was an order-of-operations problem that led to that vehicle's destruction. Fill the helium tanks at the right time, and the gap problem doesn't occur.

>>10470209
>Boeing have to build another brand-new capsule for OFT-2 because of this.

That'll be only another $300 million from the benevolent taxpayers, thank you.

>>10471106
yeah, they should have just cancelled the $3 billion program instead

>>10471184
Not all that surprising, you get a few of those posts in every rocket launch thread.

Regarding the COPV, it's not the Falcon 9 helium pressure vessels that they want redesigned but Dragon 2's itself. So this actually has nothing to do with this >>10471184.

Rocket Lab's Electron was supposed to launch today but was delayed until next week.

Colorado Springs is said to have a 70% chance of getting the headquarters for the new Space Command. US Space Command is the organization that would be directing space combat operations.

>ISS crewed launches will continue to be mixed
>Americans will continue to be launched on the Soyuz and Russians will be launched on the Dragon 2 and Starliner
Is this true?

>>10471289
very likely
Americans don't want to be reliant on Russian launchers
Russians have muh national pride preventing them from using an American launcher

>>10471289
>>10471298
no wait
you gave me the ole switcharoo there you bastard

>>10471289
Russians have no involvement in the US commercial crew program. At the same time, none of NASA's international partners have an involvement in it either.

I expect the US will switch to commercial crew, and the partners will be split by convenience between the US and Russia.

>>10471269
Rocket Lab? More like Rocket Scrub, amirite?

SpaceX had to redesign COPVs for the Demo-1 launch. Everything went fine and all this talk about them finding new issues and delaying the crewed launch is just trolling.
Until you see an official source or dated response, don't believe it

>>10471395
As I mentioned here >>10471267, their redesigning the Dragon capsule's COPVs, your referring to the Falcon 9 booster COPVs which have already been redesigned for DM-1. They are different things.

>>10471275
Colorado just got even better. Goddamn I wish I'd gotten into USAFA

>>10471184
What are time zones, Alex?

Don't see it mentioned here yet, but Blue Origin trademarked the name "New Lindenbergh" recently.

https://trademark.trademarkia.com/new-lindbergh-88227372.html

Since Lindenbergh piloted a plane, maybe this is a concept for a spaceplane? With SABRE development gaining attention this could also led Blue to pursue something like this.

>>10471789
My guess is that Blue's looking to lock in that name for point-to-point suborbital flight.

>>10471395
>but muh L2 super sekrit insider info!

>>10471803
Yeah, but in what kind of vehicle? I highly doubt they are going to offer that in New Glenns since the upper stage will be expendable. So I guess they are preparing to develop a Skylon/SpacehshipOne-like spaceplane.

>>10471809
I'd say Vertical Takeoff is involved. Point-to-point is a suborbital endeavor to begin with, and extra vehicle mass spent on wings wouldn't really make or break the idea. They might just stick with vertical takeoff, vertical landing, though; they have no experience with wings.

Hopper webcam looks like shit. buy a tele lens for fucks sake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7zia2HqOOc

>>10471816
Jeff is much more business-oriented than Musk though. E2E-travel on rockets wont happen anytime soon, simply because the whole world has like 10 launch pads that are each standing in the middle of nowhere. A spaceplane could start and land on theoretically any international airport.

Lindenbergh is also not a person from rocket history, he is from airplane history.

>>10471535
Again, no source

>>10471868
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=01p-4YfMXm8

Literally from the head of the commercial crew program

>>10471891
>Just watch this hour long video, I swear it's in there somewhere!

https://www.krgv.com/news/spacex-confirms-test-launch-of-rocket-prototype-days-away/
Static fire happening today

>>10471896
>Static fire happening today
That would be one fast hookup. And they've only installed one of the side engines; they still need a middle and far side engine for flight, now.

>>10471891
dude 54 min long.....

>>10471906
I know but it's in their, Kathy Lueders mentions it multiple times.

>>10471891
>Demo-1 PRE LAUNCH briefing
>Everything from BEFORE DM-1 launched

Seriously? The trolls claimed they found COPV issues after Dragon2 returned and now your source is a video from before D2 even left earth.

>>10471936
Kathy said they were happy with the vehicle enough to launch it, but she also mentioned that several small changes will have to be made before DM-2. The COPV issue isn't necessarily an issue per say, but a possible cause of an issue that they want mitigated. Basically, NASA are heavily nitpicking for small potential problems...

>>10471952
Can't deny that, they nit picked and delayed the DM-1 launch for absolutely stupid reasons.

>>10471970
NASA was just being extremely careful. They don't want to have the same situation the Shuttle gave them where they had an unsafe vehicle but kept flying it because they didn't have any other option.

>>10469855
F

>>10469935
did it land on an Indian street?

>>10471350
>we'll design our rocket to launch 20 times a year!
>and put the launch site in New Zealand, where you the weather is ALWAYS nice!
pick one

Imagine flying on Soyuz in 2020s because of retarded NASA policies.

>>10472058
Will russians ever replace it? Or will they just shut down their crewed space program after ISS will went out of commission?

>>10472061
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_(spacecraft)
Someday but you know they are like Elon with keeping on dates

>>10472071
>they are like Elon with keeping on dates

Say what you will about Elon but he is much better at keeping dates than either NASA or Russia.

>>10469962
>Can only fly to Mars
Doesn't exist and will never fly anyone to mars.

>>10471821

It's also very foggy today. You aren't going to see much.

>>10471803
I sure hope no one snags his jacket one of those plumbing lines

>>10472071
>like elon with keeping dates
They wish.

>>10470822
>playing a game that was turned into spyware after hostile takeover

>>10471289
Russians gets a free seat they don't even have to pay.

>>10472196
guilty

>>10471823
>any international airport
Wrong because supersonic vehicles are extremely noisy, so any infrastructure servicing them will be dedicated and placed far away from any place that might be disturbed. This is why spacex are considering ocean launch platforms both for p2p and the desired and required rapid launch rate of their starship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j27fhnwu88c

>>10472214
You don't have to accelerate to supersonic speed near cities. Concorde didnt either.

>>10472217
So they are going for an ordinary subsonic airplane?

>>10472224
I don't know, all I know is the name, rest is speculation. Maybe something like pic related.

>>10472234
Imagine if they bought reaction engines

>>10472249
Maybe plan b for Bezos if reducing costs with New Glenn doesn't work out as hoped.

>>10471535
as explained in >>10470901 the COPV that needed to be redesigned was the Falcon 9 Stage 2 helium tank. That's the only one with solid oxygen issues.

>>10471350
Scrub Lab

>>10472234
A glider coming in fast also generates sonic booms and it cant glide for long - see shuttle. Only way to avoid noise issues is to land far away, or add sufficient lift and jet engines for prolonged subsonic flight so it reenters where it doesn't cause problems and then fly all the way to the destination. The former is doable but raises some questions whether delays and costs introduced by secondary transport won't kill any speed gains from going full sanic. The latter would be difficult because of mass growth. There won't be any suborbital planes taking off or landing on ordinary runways.

>>10472314
>There won't be any suborbital planes taking off or landing on ordinary runways.
Are you retarded?

>>10472314
vertical landing approaches have minimal boom, you only need to have clearance for a few miles or less around the site, the same you need for launches

>>10472061
Russian manned space program will just go heavy into space tourism if/when ISS work dries up. Due to the global asset bubble there are plenty of millionaires and billionaires who can foot the bill for a Soyuz flight to fulfill their fantasy of being an astronaut.

>>10472319
The context should say enough about the meaning behind "suborbital" but if you want some clarification just ask.

>holddowns from the top this time with guy wires
I'm glad they learned their goddamn lesson, it is not that hard to properly hold something down

They are installing the engine
https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1106928214809763841

>>10472326
Won't Starliner/Dragon2 be more attractive? Soyuz tourist market seems like a pipe dream.

>>10472331
Suborbital spaceplanes have already taken off and landed from conventional runways.
Orbital spaceplanes have landed at runways 100+ times, and people didn't have to be miles away for it to be safe.

>>10472335
spacex engineers didn't pass their first statics class

>>10472337
why the fuck did I read the comments
>the atlas 411 of water towers
kill me
if they're putting it in the center position it could to hop tests

>>10472335
I'm still in the camp this is the next prototype. Not sure if orbital but it's growing quite tall already and they were putting some reinforcement inside, bracing or something. If all the pieces + hopper exceed the starship height, we can be sure it's not just a simple fairing replacement.

>>10472339
Russians plan to keep their parts of the ISS in orbit so they'll have a launch vehicle and a space station for a destination. Status seeking billionaires will want the full ride and not a suborbital flight. Maybe Dragon 2 will take tourists to the Russian space station for reduced price since it can fit more people than a Soyuz.

>>10472340
I take it you think noise will not be an issue then? I've already said what I have to say but I'm curious about your view on this.

>>10472314
Avoiding civilian areas for supersonic flight and breakdown adds maybe 45-60 minutes to the whole flight duration. Then you can just ascent and descent like a regular airplane from a regular runway. Vertical landing and take-off adds way more because the launch and landing pads need to be far away, plus there is no launch pad infrastructure.

>>10472346
they're almost at the part where they install the inward tilting nosecone
if the next segment to go up is straight then we'll know at least one of them is an orbital prototype

>>10472351
I'm assuming you mean that it won't happen because of takeoff using rocket engines?

>>10472351
sonic booms are less loud than rocket takeoffs dude

>>10472355
Not just take off - landing approach booms too. See shuttle if you have no idea what I'm talking about, then consider flight rate and ordinary airports rather than what the sts was doing.

>>10472370
Completely different though. A spaceplane won't be nearly as fast and also will have a very flat trajectory. This means aerobraking will happen very slowly and the sonic boom way up in the atmosphere where nobody will hear it on the ground.

>>10472370
>landing approach booms too. See shuttle if you have no idea what I'm talking about
Are you implying shuttle booms were a big problem?

>>10472370
>>10472374
oh yeah, and here's some proof that you're full of shit

>>10472382
why was Concorde so fucking loud, no wonder they didn't let it fly over populated areas

>>10472373
Look, if it enters subsonic flight regime near populated areas there will be problems. If it enters it away from such areas, it has to have the means to fly to the airport. Gliding will likely not be sufficient for that.
>>10472374
Maybe they were, maybe not. You are talking about civilian airports and common flights of spaceplanes to and from them which will definitely be a problem.

I stand by my words - no spaceplanes on airports. And not just because of excessive noise.

>>10472071
>Perminov further indicated that the new spacecraft would be expected to enter service within a time frame of the Orion spacecraft
>In late 2018, It was announced that the first launch was scheduled sometime in 2022, or possibly 2024

>>10472071
Soyuz will fly to the moon long before this "Federation" thing gets built if ever

>>10472436
>Flying to the moon in a capsule that's less than 3 m in diameter

That thing better be bolted to a larger habitation module, or else it's going to be one cramped and uncomfortable ride.

>>10472404
>Look, if it enters subsonic flight regime near populated areas there will be problems. If it enters it away from such areas, it has to have the means to fly to the airport. Gliding will likely not be sufficient for that.

Spaceplanes have regular jet enignes. They can fly like normal planes.

>>10472444
Soyuz has two pressurized modules so a two man crew could actually be pretty comfy.

>>10472446
If I were in the mood for more I'd go for it but maybe next thread.
tldr; its harder than you think.

>>10472463
Yeah no shit. Doesn't change the fact it makes more sense to use the existing infrastructure instead of assuming anybody is going to invest trillions into launch pads.

>taps glass of diet mountain dew
>*ting ting ting ting ting*
Excuse me everyone. I would like to make an announcement.

>>10472485
Let me guess, the SLS is canceled, instead a new rocket called the American Launch System will be developed which will use existing hardware to cut down costs?

>>10472485
I know NASA is getting a lot of slack but they couldn't have known that the private space launch sector is going to develop so well. When they decided to develop SLS Jeff Bezos was still far away to be able to put 1 billion a year into Blue Origin and SpaceX was still struggling to land a rocket.

But now, that there are simply better private rockets, they should cancel it. Sure, it's hurtful to do considering all the money that went into it, but with the private sector being what it is the SLS simply is obsolet.

>>10472485
*ahem*
FUCK SLS, FUCK ROSCOSMOS, FUCK CHYNA, FUCK WFIRST, BUT MOST OF ALL FUCK NIGGERS

>>10472421
I'm glad both Russia and NASA are working on the same timetable, so based commercial spaceflight will win

Could Russia possibly upstage NASA by sending cosmonauts on a trip around the moon before the unmanned EM-1 mission even launches? Maybe they could jury rig a Soyuz to reach the moon by docking it with a Fregat or a Progress configured to carry additional fuel.

>>10472527
I doubt so. The R7 can't send Soyuz to the moon on it's own, and docking and refueling is actually more involved than it initially seems. Roscosmos would have to redesign the propulsion module on the Soyuz to accept refueling, and they'll have to redesign Progress to perform refueling. Considering how slowly they have been designing their Angara rocket, it's a safe bet that they won't be able to do the work before NASA could send EM-1.

Plus, there's no real motivation to beat NASA to the moon unless they want Space Race 2: Electric Boogaloo, and look how far behind they ended up even with the might of the Soviet Union backing them up.

>>10472444
>>10472451
Funny enough Soyuz was originally designed to be a Lunar spacecraft, an analogue to America's Apollo that would launch on the N1.

>>10469968
Loved these back in the day. Middle rocket in phase 2 is basically Vulcan, so it's kinda happening.

>>10472542
The Soyuz wouldn't have to refuel though. Progress can fire its engines to reboost the ISS so it should be able to do the same for a docked Soyuz. But yeah Russia probably doesn't want to start another space race with all the funding problems they're having.

Get ready cus I'm about to drop one hell of a dump...

Hopper testing starts next week

Seems like the Raptor has been centred

Also, unrelated but still interesting...

>>10472696
A literal corporate police state.

>>10472696
>proof of residence
>aka literally like three people

>>10472734
bootlicker

>>10472736
how is it bad to limit access to a beach when you’re firing a fucking rocket
do you think there shouldn’t be fences around KSC as well

>>10472745
none of those people wanted them there

spacex has spent years trying to but out the town and it hasn't worked

>>10472749
buy out*

>>10472749
They've actually bought out most of the houses now, there's only Nomadd, BCgirl and a couple others left. The left over houses are apparently being used for housing SpaceX employees and storage.

>>10472760
>only Nomadd, BCgirl
What the fuck are you talking about?
Those are not real names.

>>10472768
Of course, they are the NSF usernames of the Boca Chica inhabitants who have been taking all the photos that have been posted. BCgirl's real name is Maria Pointer but nobody knows who Nomadd is...

>>10472779
>NSF
Kill yourself.

>>10472782
So where do you think all these pics are coming from, dingus?

>>10472782
so salty

>>10472789
>>10472790
Kill yourselves.

Just ignore him, he throws a fit when anyone mentions NSF
was here some threads ago as well

>>10472791
>>10472782

>10472791
lol y u mad tho

>>10472801
what a strange thing to be triggered by

>>10472807
It's ironic because these pictures are the only thing that keeps these threads going...

>>10472704
>>10472700
This thing looks ugly as fuck and beautiful at the same time. it's going to be interesting seeing it hopping.

>>10472749
>none of those people wanted them there
Read some posts of people who live there, either in Boca Chica FB group or on NSF. They all love having a fucking Mars rocket prototype in their backyard.

>>10472933
it's the shill, lad
Facts don't matter, he just wants to lie through his teeth 24/7 because his boss is paying him those nickels and dimes to do so

>>10472933
All the disgruntled folks have moved out by now
>>10472953
I think his boss ordered him to double his efforts after this >>10472728
was posted...

>>10472485
Why do I love ULA so much? It's pretty simple when I think about it. ULA isn't just the best launch provider in the country; they might just be the greatest launch provider of all time. Just imaging the Altas V riding through the skies of Earth, the wind on its fairing, the mighty RD-180 below it. As she rides through the red sky, NASA swoons at her very scent. They know how she smells; the essence of burning RP-1 smell is sold in Orlando under the name of "Space Orgasm." The very nature of ULA is mystery. Could they be playing a deeper game than even Tory Bruno realizes? The answer is yes, ULA has transcended such boundaries as the physical world, and has free will to do whatever they sees fit. However, ULA is filled with such guile, such arcane craft that they does not even use these powers. Why, you might ask? You will never know, for the mind of the ULA is not one that is easily penetrated. ULA rockets are such a force of nature in this realm that nothing can truly touch them, the only thing keeping them bound to this world at all is their will to exist within the preordained boundaries understood physics. ULA is not only beyond the comprehension of us, it exists within a plane of true focus and beauty. Observe the plume of exhaust gasses from this Delta IV, the gorgeous flames, the gallant fairing, and most importantly, its engines. Her engines, like cauldrons straight from hell, provide the only glimpse into the true machinations of ULA. Do not stare into them. Many good men have gone mad in the attempt. ULA is not just a launch provider, a formless collection of engineers and rockets; they are themselves the binding that holds the word together. Without ULA, Musk the Menace takes over and the entire space industry as we know it crumbles. The Mississippi would stop flowing without ULA, Kessler syndrome would take over in orbit, and the space station would fall without their fiery gaze. These are just of a few of the reasons why I like ULA so much.

>>10472953
>being a conspiratard

>>10472975
based and hydroloxpilled

>>10472729
Nevermind the fact this is untested and new technology and if something goes wrong the resulting explosion is going to destroy the facility and likely fling debris all over the place. Last thing anyone needs is an idiot to get too close during testing.

>>10472975
Your crew pod will never fly.

>>10472953
>>10472961
call me naive, but i doubt anyone would get payed to shill here.
someone being an edgy fanboy and shitpost on the other hand...

>>10472989
>ULA crew pod
What?

>>10473018
4chan has been an internet culture hub with massive amounts of influence ever since it began back in 2003
Modern 4chan gets about 100 million unique users per month, and remains a internet culture hub
and you think parties interested in manipulating internet culture wouldn't want to shill in it's birthplace?

also
>if you demoralize an enemy by making them feel insignificant, they will be less resistant to subversion

>>10473037
see >>10472978

>>10473030
He means Starliner (technically Boeing's, but Boeing is also part of ULA)
>>10472728

>>10473037
Has anyone actually been caught shilling here, like has a post been traced back to an employee? I mean the spaceflight threads specifically.

>>10473044
nope, why would you? it’s a lot of effort for pissing off a handful of people

It’s not like an anon’s opinion changes how a GEO sat order turns out
The “shilling” meme has reduced the quality of posting on 4chan in general

You can’t have an opinion without being a shill

>>10473043
you might as well say Starship is a Tesla rocket, because Boeing unironically has a smaller share in ULA than Musk does in both Tesla and SpaceX.

>>10473044
All the shillposts have been constrained to spreading FUD about SpaceX and Elon Musk in general
actual shilling for a company has been kept to a minimum, with the very few posts that did shill for one being praises for Blue Origin's rocket and NASA's SLS
Primarily, it's just him screeching that Musk is going to be arrested and SpaceX dissolved, that BFR/Starship is a meme rocket that will never ever fly, that Starship is a fake rocket that is there purely to scam investors, and that anyone and everyone that likes Musk is a "Muskrat" or a shill themselves

Shilling generally spikes whenever a competing launch company fucks up, or whenever SpaceX or Musk fucks up on something
For example, when the nose cone blew over, we lost damn near half a thread to "SPACEX BTFO MUSK BTFO STARSHIP BTFO WILL NEVER FLY" spam

>>10473053
>You can’t have an opinion without being a shill

Some opinions make no sense without an ulterior motive, and the lowest common denominator is money.

>>10473065
>Some opinions make no sense without an ulterior motive
Yeah, such as being a shill for spacex and completely shitting all over everyone else 24/7, which is what this place has devolved into.

>>10473072
No not really
Not at all

posting about a genuine under construction rocket is not shilling
posting about legitimate factual achievements of a company is not shilling
Accusing others of being shills when they do both is most definitely shilling

>>10473072
>Yeah, such as being a shill for spacex and completely shitting all over everyone else 24/7, which is what this place has devolved into.

SpaceX's popularity comes from being simultaneously open and a trailblazer in modern spaceflight. Making big promises (propulsive landing and booster reuse) and then delivering on those promises has given them a very good reputation that old-space has long since lost to the perverse history of aerospace projects and government contracting.

>>10473075
What about what I said is wrong, in your opinion?

>>10473053
>The “shilling” meme has reduced the quality of posting on 4chan in general
Agreed. You can't criticize any launch company in an environment like that. It kills discussion.

However, accusations of shilling are so common in these threads that I just had to ask if there were a confirmed case simply because such a case would explain why such accusations are common. Since there isn't one, it just makes these claims more lame and frustrating than anything else.

>>10473077
>people unironically reposting reddit content
>people unironically asking whether or not to "get L2," and people unironically telling them to
>people unironically saying "I want to thank hobo from NSF for these photos XDD"
>people unironically posting pictures of scrapyards and welding work like anyone here actually cares
The only person I don't mind who posts this stuff is the guy posting the L2 photos here, because fuck those greedy cunts that run that site.

>>10473084
>What about what I said is wrong, in your opinion?

Not him, but you genuinely can't fathom why anyone would like SpaceX, can you

>>10473085
>>10473091
The "environment" in these threads is ruined by the constant "go spacex, fuck everyone else" attitude that's been here since 2016.

>>10473094
that’s not true tho

>>10473094
You seem to completely forgotten about the "anti-SpaceX" nerds that same out of the woodwork during the previous Falcon launch. There are shitheads on "both sides" and your attitude is contributing to that issue.

>>10473090
What’s wrong with Reddit content? you aren’t 14 anymore and it’s not 2015, grown up
4chan is a mainstream site just like reddit. Reddit is a link aggregator, with an optional comment section. 4chan is an image board where you’re forced to view a specific stream of images and comments. Both have their ups and downs

To try to move the topic back to actual spaceflight, someone here mentioned that the three Raptors on the Starhopper are mounted so the engines form a line. Can someone find any source on that? Because I thought that the engines were going to be mounted like in this picture.

>>10473110
in a line is consistent with the configuration of 7 for orbital starship
Also then you have one right in the middle

we praise spacex and hate the competition because the competition have been lazy bastards for literal fucking decades now
SLS has been in development limbo for ages, and has costed BILLIONS of dollars, and is unlikely to ever fucking fly for half a decade more at the minimum

>>10473103
Reddit content is verboten because reddit culture always follows with it, reddit culture being the absolute most cancerous shit to ever fucking exist
and not only is it cancerous, but once reddit culture is allowed to take root, redditors start believing that this is now home, and start shitting up the place how they did back in their shitholes, all of which being an anathema to what 4chan stands for

Redditor infestations are for burning and cleansing, and those that support or permit them purged alongside them

>>10473116
>>10473110
& more engine out stable configs

>>10473110
Its how the dummy engines were set up. It also means that if there's an engine failure, the thrust line still goes through the center of mass. If placed in a triangular setup like yours and one engines quits, the whole fucking thing is going to slew to the side.

>>10473103
One shouldn't ask people to love and accept a change away from the culture that they came to appreciate in the first place, nor should they use a blanket accusation of immaturity when they don't choose to accept it.

>>10473118
how can a link aggregator have culture? no one forced you to open the comment section of Reddit or view all of the subreddits at once. That’s what’s nice about it

I can just hit up r/synthesizers or whatever once a week and filter by news posts and see what’s happening in that specific topic
Etc

>>10473120
That makes sense. I guess when they had two engines mounted the perspective of an image I saw made it look like a triangular configuration to me. Thank you.

>>10473098
See:
>>10469920
>>10470063
>>10470241
>>10470259
>>10470319
>>10470477
>>10470512
>>10470515
>>10470521
>>10470727
>>10470812
>>10470820
>>10470928
>>10471106
>>10472058
>>10472061
>>10472077
>>10472267
>>10472274
>>10472489
>>10472498
>>10472520
>>10472734
>>10472760
>>10472989
>>10473062
>>10473077
>>10473118

>>10473118
>reddit culture
Dude, there are subreddits that exist only to hate other subreddits. And there are subreddits that hate other subreddits which in turn hate other subreddits. There is no "culture" of all of reddit. It's more like the cultural equivalent of Europe. Unified? Abit, yes. Homogeneous? Absolutely not.

>>10473135
Reddit culture shares all of the following hallmarks
>celebrity worship
>worship of authority/bootlicking
>popularity contests
>restricting speech
>promoting democratic socialist politics and cultural marxism
>inferiority complexes
>namefag drama
>moderator drama
>defense of advertisements
>defense of website owners
>defense of moderators
>youtuber shilling
and I could go on

>>10473132
>anti-SLS means pro SpaceX

fuck off

>>10473102
>"anti-SpaceX" nerds
proof?

>>10473143
>>celebrity worship
That could be said for any community.
>>worship of authority/bootlicking
Same.
>>popularity contests
Ditto.
>>restricting speech
Only on echo chamber communities, which aren't special to Reddit.
>>promoting democratic socialist politics and cultural marxism
Have you not seen the rightwing subreddits?
>>inferiority complexes
I think you're just seeing things.
>>namefag drama
It happens on any site that requires a registered account to make posts.
>>moderator drama
And the same doesn't happen here? Or on any other site?
>>defense of advertisements
There are subreddits which complain about ads so you're wrong.
>>defense of website owners
Have you missed the criticisms the owners got when they made that deal with a Chinese censorship agency?
>>defense of moderators
I sympathize with them if they had to deal with irritable people like you every day.
>>youtuber shilling
Not unique to Reddit.

You seem to just want to hate on some nebulous faceless entity where you can impose any traits you don't like on it. People like you are what kills communities.

>>10473155
Unfortunately the thread didn't get archived, but wait until the next Falcon launch thread especially the upcoming Falcon Heavy launch.

>>10469923
Jupiter rockets have similar aesthetic

>>10473160
you'd get basically both sides of those points/arguments if you go through /k/ on an average week as well

>>10472234
>spaceplane
>pointy nose and sharp wings
sounds good, doesn't work

>>10473170
I'm surprised that I didn't know about the Jupiter earlier. It seems to be just like the SLS designwise except it's less ambitious in exchange for being faster to develop (in theory). If that's the case, then I wonder how things would've gone if it had been selected instead of Ares V/SLS.

>>10472388
big

>>10473178
NASA/US would have retained its dignity

Congress wouldn't have a pork project to fund and abuse

ergo, SLS.

>>10473182

>>10473182
>Congress wouldn't have a pork project to fund and abuse
But Jupiter and SLS used the same parts, so Congress would get it's money either way? Unless you mean that the faster development goal of Jupiter meant that the project couldn't be "pork barreled" as much as SLS?

>>10473187
>only thing new was the crew module and upper stage
>everything else was direct shuttle hardware

>>10472983
That's a model of BE-4, methalox

>>10473196

>>10473192
>Unless you mean that the faster development goal of Jupiter meant that the project couldn't be "pork barreled" as much as SLS?
That's what I meant, this was designed to ensure as quick and efficient a transition from shuttle as possible in as little time as possible

Such a project means little opportunity for congressional pork barreling since speed, efficiency and cost saving was the main goal. And it could be scaled up once things were back in motion.

>>10473193
That's a wonky center core configuration though. If one of the paired engines gave out, the booster could still salvage the mission, but if the lone engine quit the launch would be fucked.

>>10473201
The render got it wrong I think
see >>10473170

>>10473193
Wouldn't have been what it said on the tin because they'd have needed to redesign the tank to handle the structural loads of the payload being on top rather than on the side. Probably would have just ended up being a 20 billion dollar boondoggle anyway.

>>10473199
I mean, Congress could still pork up Jupiter by forcing the contractors to be delayed. Other than that, the only major issue I can see with Jupiter is that it uses SRBs for a crewed vehicle. However, maybe the conventional layout of Jupiter would make that issue less pronounced compared to the Shuttle.

>>10473199
>Such a project means little opportunity for congressional pork barreling since speed, efficiency and cost saving was the main goal. And it could be scaled up once things were back in motion.
People always say this and it doesn't make any sense. There was no impetus to switch to some other style of "port procurement," only to keep shuttle jobs where they were. There's nothing about a rocket that doesn't launch that makes it more appealing from a pork perspective than one that does. In fact, the SpaceX style of launching and also developing and improving is the best method overall for pork procurement, so why didn't they do that?

>>10473206

>>10473203
Idk. The same design is in >>10473211 .

>>10473211
Still bothers me that it throws SSMEs away. >>10473199 will always be a superior design. It wouldn't cost much more than DIVH to launch either.

>>10473221
>that it throws SSMEs away

Where? Every config I've seen uses SSME's for the first stage (2,3 or 4) that remains unchanged

>>10473224
Read the post again you fucking retard.

>>10473224
I think what he meant by "throws away" is that the core stage along with the very expensive SSMEs are left to crash into the ocean after the stage is used up.

>>10473224
>Still bothers me that it throws SSMEs away

>doesn't throw SSME's away

>>10473230
Oh I see now, yeah that sucks. Will the SLS do the same too?

>>10473234
Of course. SLS got started before the whole reusable rockets thing took off proper.

>>10473234
>Will the SLS do the same too?
Yes, but it would have 4 SSMEs instead of 3.

Soon.

>>10473234
no, because it will not fly
Jupiter program was doomed to fail because it was toast as soon as it ran out of engines

>>10473241
>The proposed Jupiter family can launch with currently available engines but could still take advantage of a more powerful SRB and J-2X upper stage engine should they become available.

It was designed so that once the SSME's were used up other engines could be added once developed, it meant we would still be able to fly some missions though in the interim, instead of fully relying on Soyuz for a decade after

>>10473246
zero reason to not use the other engines right away
RS-68 already existed

>>10473246
Forgot to mention for the core stage RS-68 would also be available once the SSME's were all used up

>>10473255
Yeah they would just have to human-rate them, all of which could be done while Jupiters would be flying with the SSME's

Fuck SLS so much.

>>10473263
What I have a hard time imagining is how the engineers and managers justified the delays so that it appeared that they were doing their job. Like at some point some high up in NASA would notice some fuckery going on and cracked down on them.

"You want me to finish the core stage in a year? I'm sorry, but it'll take me 3 weeks, a team of engineers, and an ultrasound machine just to find the right wrench to bolt the RS-25s!"

>>10473285
Maybe the higherups themselves were complicit, I don't know how such a slow, tedious and lethargic development was possible considering how relatively quickly it took Saturn V to be built

>>10473318
>Maybe the higherups themselves were complicit
Maybe. There should be an investigation into the entire project, or at least a study so that the mistake isn't repeated.

>I don't know how such a slow, tedious and lethargic development was possible considering how relatively quickly it took Saturn V to be built
I have no idea either. I was growing up when NASA was promising a return to the moon, or a manned trip to Mars, yet it got delayed and canceled, only to be started again. It sort of gave me a jaded view on manned spaceflight. Sure I was happy about probes being sent, but I had accepted that I would be an old man before anything new happened in manned spaceflight. Good thing my opinion has changed since then, but I'm still somewhat frustrated over all of this.

i don't know why there are so many launches but I don't hate it. I like seeing phallic objects pierce the skies

>>10473221
Too bad you can't pack RS-68 engines that close because of their ablative nozzles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMiFiI1WH2M

>>10472199
they get FREE RIDES all thanks to GLORIOUS CAPITALISM

Soyuz and Dragon orbital rendezvous when?

>>10473110
It's for the same reason you don't use an odd number of engines (not counting the core) for an asparagus stage. If one goes out, the rest are off-center. With an even number of engines, you can shut down the opposite engine for a stable configuration.

>>10473110
line is more stable for engine out

>>10473118
we also love Blue Origin but it's funny to make fun of them for being >suborbital

>>10472729
Mars is going to be alot worse comrade. It will be 19th century America all over again.

>>10472335
To be fair it was exceptionally windy on the day it blew over.

>>10473090
literally nothing wrong with any of those

>>10474083
the L2 thing is kind of lame
fuck them

>>10474113
It does suck, but people should be thankful L2 content is being posted here considering it's usually only available to elitist paypigs. People here have access to more information than the people on Reddit or normal NSF do.

>>10473090
>butthurt for getting banned on nsf

>>10473144
The whole point of direct was reusing shuttle tooling.
Shuttle tooling was scrapped.
Might was well dream of saturn V.

>That DIRECT shill

The whole DIRECT concept was just a compromise in order to placate political interests, too. It would be likely less bloated end inefficient than SLS, but it is still shit.

If you want to play with alternative history, then something like Atlas phase 2 with reusable ACES upper stage was a much more rational approach at the time.

new thread
>>10474283