/sci/ - Science & Math

>tfw we're all gonna make it

Fusion reactors

>>10443266
Which is better? Solar panels or salt towers?

>>10443256
>take up thousands of acres
>prone to wear and a lifespan of about two decades
>viability is geographically limited to areas with decent wind
>ultra huge windfarms are posited to effect weather patterns
>>10443266
>takes up thousands of acres
>photovoltaics have a limited lifespan
>limited to daytime energy production
>all of the above vary depending on temporal conditions


These are all shit tier for powering a civilization.
This might work for a small community in decent locations but they are not practical or viable for replacing all our energy needs.
They are not the future. They are a meme of the past.

>>10443266
*sun sets*
Nuffin personnel, greenigger.

>>10443286
Based and D-T-pilled

>>10443286
ITER finished in 2025. Manages to produce at least 5x the power put into it in 2035.

First commercial reactors coming online in 2050.

Entire world fusion powered by 2080 making energy so cheap that it'll be like internet where you'll pay a single fee every month and get unlimited amount of power usage.

>>10443309
>>take up thousands of acres
The base of wind turbines doesn't take up a lot of space.
>>prone to wear and a lifespan of about two decades
Literally any source of energy needs maintenance. Also the worlds first offshore wind turbine farm lasted 26 years, and it'll only get better.
>>viability is geographically limited to areas with decent wind
This is a large part of Earth.
>>ultra huge windfarms are posited to effect weather patterns
Insignificant.

>>takes up thousands of acres
Can be placed on roofs etc.
>>photovoltaics have a limited lifespan
Like any other energy source.
>>limited to daytime energy production
Yes, that's why they need to be complemented by other sources of energy.
>>all of the above vary depending on temporal conditions
How the fuck does their space requirement vary on 'temporal conditions'?

PV and wind turbines + storage is the future.

>>10443291
Solar Panels have come out as the decisive victor.

>>10443325
>2050
That is already way way way too late.
We need to act now. By 2040 we are supposed to have zero to negative carbon emissions.

>>10443244
Injecting water underground causes earthquakes. The cost of drilling is exponential with depth. Hot rocks can be cooled down fast enough that some deposits are non renewable over human timescales. Because the locations you can extract geothermal at low depth are limited its a meme. If we develop cheaper drilling tech it could maybe not be a meme.
>>10443291
photovoltaics hands down. Perovskite solar cells advance 1% in efficiency every two months.

>>10443325
This is the greatest test of our time. We have the potential to generate near limitless energy, but we must curb our hunger to ever realize that goal. Will mankind listen to the earth and calm down enough to transcend, or will we go down in flames and shit?

>>10443374
Luckily, we are developing cheaper drilling tech.
Besides, there are quite a few places geothermal can be extracted at low depth. The ocean has a lot of potential here. The earthquake problem may be mitigated through special engineering. Doesnt rekjavik prove this isnt a meme? Sure, their energy needs are low, but at least locally, it works extremely well.
>>10443374
Source?

>>10443309
Yeah, I'm sure you are very knowledgeable of power generation

>>10443309
>limited lifespan
We're all on the same train, buddy.

What we need is solar and wind only.

Also we need more racial and gender equality too while were at it, and free healthcare, education, and a stipend for people who refuse to work. I ain't accepting any green new deal unless all those things come with it.

>>10443436
Can you drop the irony for the sake of survival?

>>10443439
I can't survive unless transgender people are respected.

Keyboards with wheels

>>10443439
Fuck survival, I just want my team to win!

>>10443441
What about burgers with wheels instead?

>>10443465
>having to chase your meal
SHALL NOT

>>10443286
>ITER has a 6 meter radius
>DEMO with ITER technology would be 8.5 meter radius
>DEMO or ARC with high temperature superconductors could be 3-5 meters in radius
Hopefully ITER will be the biggest we'll ever have to build a fusion device and we're all gonna make it, lads.

>>10443521
But will we make it in time?

>>10443244
A larger population of gays

>>10443542
no
BOE by early 2020s
industrial civilization collapses before roll out of fusion in the 2040s

>>10443244
If we has fusion we can do almost everything.

>>10443542
MIT and Tokamak Energies gives me some hope that maybe DEMO won't actually be needed/built. Maybe ITER results will be really helpful, but if we can get a bunch of proper power plants into production by 2035 or 2040 it could still help turn things around during the final stretch or help power carbon negative technology.

On the other hand, batteries, solar and wind are pretty affordable right now and they probably only get cheaper in the future. No reason not to start decarbonising with that now and do more of it as time passes.

>>10443396
flames and shit, guaranteed

people don't like to give stuff up once they have it

>>10443396
Economies and commodities needs to keep running or we start wars and eat each other. It's the main issue here. We can't just turn off all the industries in the world and wait for the fusion plant plans, sadly.

>>10443582
We'll never dig out from the carbon hole. The green weenies will settle for "renewables" and massive amounts of batteries. Never funding nuclear energy and geo engineering.

>>10443586
>>10443607
So, what we need in the meantime is a big cultural shift. I wonder how we could swing such a thing...

>>10443309
>take up thousands of acres
The largest off shore wind farm in the world occupies less than 20k acres. You realize how big the ocean is, right? 88,960,000,000 acres.
>prone to wear and a lifespan of about two decades
Two decades? Oh no, how will we ever maintain something that requires attention every twenty years... I don't think you realize how long 20 years actually is, what were you doing in 1999? Not to mention windfarms have largely outlasted their expected lifespan and this continues to increase.
>viability is geographically limited to areas with decent wind
Not true at all. The vast majority of the ocean has windspeeds that actually far exceed the needs of windfarms. (See attached photo, anywhere that's not purple/blue is ideal for wind turbines). The greater limitation at this point is that we cannot just build windfarms in the middle of the ocean, they must be close to shore lines where the power will be consumed.
>ultra huge windfarms are posited to effect weather patterns
If you're talking about offshore windfarms, the effect they have on weather patterns is negligible, especially when compared to other energy methods we currently use which produce air pollution. If you're talking land-based windfarms though, it has been shown that these do cause microclimate effects for their surroundings. However, these changes are largely beneficial since most land-based windfarms in the US are located on farms in the midwest where the microclimate effects actually prevents the late spring and early autumn frosts, and also reduces the action of pathogenic fungi that grow on the leaves..

I ain't even gonna take you on solar because you've proven yourself to be an absolute brainlet.

>>10443244
Find something that sucks carbon out of the air and turns it into some inert material.

>>10443648
so trees?

>>10443632
The thing is, we're just on the edge of it not being neccessary at all, if every country just started ditching coal and gas in earnest now.
And there's also the hope that one of these days solar and/or batteries will just start being much cheaper than fossil fuel alternatives and the market will start sorting things out by itself.

>>10443658
I'm thinking something that's faster that makes something more inert than wood, which can still rot, break down, and release that carbon back into the cycle.

>>10443664
Tesla is still on track to reduce the cost per kWh of their EV batteries to the point where electric vehicles will be fully cost-competitive with ICE vehicles within 10 years.

>>10443648
There is a company or startup or something that made a machine that foes that, but for the life of me, I can't remember what it is called. I know it condenses the carbon into little beads and some other stuff.

>>10443676
Climeworks, that is what it was.

>>10443675
ten years is the tipping point so we need to move faster. We'll still end up fucked but it will be the difference between losing both your legs and getting shot in the face with a rocket

>>10443665
You can perform pyrolysis on the wood to convert it to carbon.

>>10443682
Ten years was the tipping point 30 years ago

>>10443244
Nuclear Winter can freeze Earth & revert global women.... I mean ... global warming

>>10443681 >>10443682 >>10443684 >>10443689

>>10443691
it might come to that. Blasting every single nuke in the atmosphere to cool it down enough to survive. sure, 99% of life will get cancer but at least everything won't boil to death

>>10443695
You could have better options if you were intentionally trying to start a nuclear winter scenario.
Evacuate Indonesia and throw some nukes into a volcano and let nature do the work.

>>10443675
Honestly, with VW and a bunch of other car makers about to enter into the electric auto mobile market in earnest, I'm not as concerned with cars. We'll see how it goes in the next 5 years.
Electricity really needs to be sorted out and private home heating is something that is overlooked a lot with no clear solution in sight.

>>10443721
mandate passive solar design and insulation standards

>>10443436
The fuck you niggers shitting on solar and wind for? It is literally the most effective and quickest way to greenify the greed that we can do TODAY.
No other solution is ready to deploy TODAY.
Wind and Solar can help tremendously.

>>10443695
>>10443711
>>10443691
Just spreading some particulates with planes costs just a hundred million dollars per year. People have calculated this. You don't need nukes for this.
The issue with this is, that it's completely fucking unpredictable. The climate might go out of control into a completely different direction and entire countries might starve because they don't get enough sunlight anymore. Also stopping it at any point while continuing to emit fossil fuels would create a climate whiplash that would fuck everything up beyond belief.
Or maybe it'd work out great. Who knows?
It's a nice last-minute gambling option, but we should really exhaust other methods first.
Getting away from oil and gas isn't a bad idea in and of itself anyway. I'm kinda sick of being dependent on middle eastern autocracies and russia for my energy.

>>10443742
>but we should really exhaust other methods first.
I say we start manufacturing orbital habitats in the asteroid belt and around saturn and get the fuck out while the getting's good.

>>10443746
Unless we start mass-producing crafts with nuclear pulse propulsion tomorrow, we aren't gonna colonize the solar system with any real percentage of earth's population.
And introducing mass-production of mini-nukes into a failing society and planet is probably the worst idea ever.
It's probably easier just to fix things and keep the infrastructure in place to freeze the greenhouse effect right where we want it for good.

>>10443689
It was always 2050 to do something and end of the 21st century for the consequences to become completely unbearable.

>>10443756
I humbly volunteer to be one of the men charged with the inglorious duty of impregnating the women of the space-harem stations.
I take no pleasure in this for myself, but I do it for humanity.

>>10443734
Exactly but i don't want it unless it comes with everything else. All or nothing.

>>10443374
>Perovskite solar cells advance 1% in efficiency every two months.
Perovskite cells' real issue is durability rather than efficiency.

>>10443405
>Doesnt rekjavik prove this isnt a meme?
Iceland is also lucky to be on a geothermal hot spot. They're taking advantage of something that's already there.
They also get plenty of seismic activity, but it's pretty constant and low level, as opposed to say a strike-slip fault like you have in california where pressure builds up until it snaps in a big ass earthquake.

>>10443337
You realize if we had infinite power generation we could just pull and filter carbon from the air, right?

>>10443665
Just used engineered wood as building materials.

Pic related, unironically.

>>10443839
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stronger-than-steel-able-to-stop-a-speeding-bullet-mdash-it-rsquo-s-super-wood/

>>10443244
BEHOLD

>>10444083
Does Eucalyptus grow faster than bamboo?

>>10444087
GMO eucalyptus is up to like 7-10 year from seed to harvest now I think.

>>10443727
For a start, a proper passive solar design requires super expensive glazing and insulation along with all sorts of other expensive as fuck shit that will make already unaffordable housing even more so, you also neglect to mention that a lot of energy is actually put into a/c. Also this only helps new buildings, are you going to tear down every fucking house on the planet and rebuild it? Give me a break, we need an energy solution.

>>10444083
Based and Wood pilled

>>10444083
This infographic should be called

>How to set the planet on fire

>>10444087
>>10444089
Niggers are fucking retarded for wanting to grow this pre filled Molotov of a tree

>t. Australian

>>10444148
A Brazil paper & pulp company made them.

>>10444143
>For a start, a proper passive solar design requires super expensive glazing and insulation along with all sorts of other expensive as fuck shit that will make already unaffordable housing even more so
[citation needed]
>you also neglect to mention that a lot of energy is actually put into a/c.
Most areas in the world require substantially more energy for winter heating than for running air conditioners all summer. Proper passive solar design takes into consideration location in climate, and the seasonal cycle generally (spring and fall overheating, for example). Houses in Australia may be designed for summer cooling rather than winter heating, for instance.
>Also this only helps new buildings
No shit, Sherlock. We take the first steps, then once progress is underway, we address areas not covered by the initial plan.

>>10444167
>[citation needed]
>Evacuated triple glazing and lots of it
>Xxxxtra insulation which means massively thickened wall studs which is expensive as fuck
>Ventilation into every room
>Super speshul building wrap
>Etc....

Have you ever built a house? It's not just a case of shuffling some rooms and windows around

>we address areas not covered by the initial plan
>Just handwashing this away

Wew lad

>>10444184
All buildings should be using modern insulation and draft-proofing standards. There's no special difference because it's passive solar. There is a variety of passive solar ideas that can be utilized beyond "make the whole south side a window." Cost-benefit analysis can be run. Besides, a passive solar design should save on monthly utilities. Houses last long enough that this should eventually pay for itself.
>Just handwashing this away
What, one of the six questions in your barrage of sowing doubt without putting up any serious argument for any of them? Older buildings are clearly not covered under the passive solar plan. Retrofitting windows is stupid, but insulation isn't too huge of a problem except for the expense of installing it.

>>10444143
>>10444184
More generally, decarbonization practically requires making progress in reducing carbon emissions from the places where they occur, and all kinds of buildings and their heating, cooling, and electricity are a big part of the total.

>>10444089
Citation? Genuinely interested.

>>10443634

>You realize how big the ocean is, right? 88,960,000,000 acres.
yeah right all the ocean in the globe is near to the coast and is shallow
also
replacing the whole thing =/= mantaining

>>10444083
based. i have thought something very similar to this solution since i was 12.
brainlets wont just understand

>>10444148
>not knowing what a fire break is
classic australian shitposter

>>10444290
It is from, "FuturaGene," but it seems they've completely changed their website and the same PDF they once had isn't there and now some 1-page PDF is all there is and it is worthless.

>>10444203
>All buildings should be using modern insulation and draft-proofing standards.
Modern nothing.
Earthworks baby. Reduce the eyesore of suburban blight and infill where possible. You don't need much soil before you're staying at a pretty comfy even temperature year round without much need for additional climate control.
Obviously it doesn't work so well in high density areas, but you could make a single family subdivision in a dugout style without sacrificing anything in the way of space or comfort.

>>10444083
Even the fastest breathing plants dont have enough space on earth to offset our carbon emissions in under 30 years

>>10444083
Why would the wood sink?

>>10443325
>First commercial reactors coming online in 2050.
>2051 - people are realizing neutron radiation from nuclear fusion is creating about the same amount of radioactive waste as did the fission

>>10444083
This will never happen because the blind shrimp who currently inhabit the Trench secretly control the world order.

>>10445100
This is simply not true. Do your research.

>>10444083
and then what

>>10443326
>>10443634
oh, look, another trump supporter like npc drones. wind turbines have been obsolete the moment they become mainstream in top 1% retarded environmental circles. they cannot provide enough power to power humanities future.

the only present technology we have at the moment that's feasible for the future is a mix of solar, geothermal, and nuclear. that's it. wind turbines are truly the power source of the top 1% of the top 1% of retards.

>>10445847
They work fine when you make them from junkyard parts to power your laptop in the wilderness

>>10445847
>being such a meme spouting retard that you can't appreciate the intrinsic value of a diversified energy grid
>making strawman arguments that anyone is saying 100% of power should come from wind
wew lad

>>10443440
I think that troons are revolting but these type of comments are becoming really annoying

>>10443542
Nope. Their project management is too fucked up and they have no funds

>>10446984
Wtf. How does that help anything?

>>10443244
Why don't we set off Yellowstone to pump so much aerosols into the air it cools the earth?

>>10444083
Wood floats

>>10444083

Let's displace 1.5k miles and 1+ miles deep of water. I bet nothing would go wrong.

>>10444083
This is so retarded. Do you even understand the danger of having so much wood in one place? If this ever catches fire, it'll shoot out like a giant rocket engine and blast off huge portions of the Earth's atmosphere as well as destabilize our orbit.

>>10449253
absolutely based

>>10443244
It doesn't exist.

If you give a prolific consumer a new technology, and he will just use it to consume more, which is exactly why the world needs saving to begin with.

The only chance we have is a massive improvement in our ethics.

It doesn't exist.

If you give a prolific consumer a new technology, then he will just use the new technology to consume more, which is exactly the attitude that makes it so the world needs saving to begin with.

The only chance we have is a massive improvement in our ethics, which seems unlikely.

>>10450014
The only axiom of logic that matters, the only fundamental values people have that matter, the only initial assertion that everyone makes to start their logical process that matters is the one that is enforced through violence and coercion.

For some reason, people have to believe that there is some religious morality that just exists out there like natural laws of physics. They have to assert that their initial assertions are not assertions, but proven and objective facts that cannot be contested because it is society-destroying to admit that the fundamental premises we build everything else on top of cannot be proven. Now, we all have to pretend these values are shared by all and if someone disagrees then its not a matter of equally valid assertion but instead blasphemy that must be repressed through use of violence or coercion.

Don't think all humans have objective spiritual value? Yep, you're to be ostracized.

This is how things have always been and this is how things will always be. It drives me insane because it results in constant turmoil between people who cant even agree on a direction, let alone a destination, let alone how to get there. If the Umbungo tribe fervently believes that scientific theory cannot reveal truth but instead only spiritual ritual and divination through an oracle then there is no way to agree sincr you cant rven agree on what is truth, thus war is inevitable.

Again, this drives me insane. What seems to make most sense would be if a society started from scratch with a constitution that asserted a fundamental set of values, the ultimate purpose of the society and the system used to uncover truth. Make these rules completely inviolable which means to abolish these fundamental rules would require the utter collapse of the society. This system seems to make the most sense since it solves the persistent issue of apathy and major internal conflict due to differences in values and objectives of the citizenry.

Yeah can I get some moscovium 291 and some hydrinos, I'm err um just uh not making a Valkyrie rocket to destroy a large planet thanks.

>>10443291

panels are cheap, work at any scale from toy to rooftop to industrial size, can be used everywhere, even in less sunny regions

>>10443244
A cure for aging

>>10451826
Panels require an insane amount of rare earth metals which come mainly from China. Unless we find other sources of rare earth metals solar panels will not be a long-term viability.

>>10446984
>HURIKAN Emergency Incineration Unit
>a range of powerful, highly-mobile, technically advanced units for the disposal of all types of animal carcasses (including cattle, sheep, pigs and fowl) following catastrophic disaster, outbreak of disease or epidemic.
I-ITS PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>10451841
No they don't, idiot. Solar cells are typically crystalline silicon doped to create p-n junctions. Doping is done with the cheapest materials available that provide good performance (i.e. not rare earths). Dopants are also miniscule by mass compared to the amount of silicon.

You're thinking of wind turbines, which require magnetic materials in the electric motor to convert mechanical energy to electrical energy. But really, you're an anti-renewable dipshit with an irrational hatred of them, looking for whatever justification you can throw out, even if it's not true or exaggerated.

>>10443793
How is that effective at all?

>>10450014
Well, technology seems to change the values of a society. Couldnt something be designed which would turn prolific consumers into producers?

>>10452149
Production itself is what increases the entropy of the system; consumption is secondary, and would not be possible without production.
You people just don't seem capable of getting it... The very concept that mineral resources are non-renewable and that consuming them fundamentally changes the mechanics of the earth system seems completely incompatible with your programming.

>>10443799
rip perovskites

>>10451879
>But really, you're an anti-renewable dipshit with an irrational hatred of them, looking for whatever justification you can throw out, even if it's not true or exaggerated.
Strange just how many of these types you find on here.

>>10452196
I understand your point. However, production does not nessecarily entail destruction. If we can somehow encourage responsibility very thoroughly, we may find ourselves capable of drawing resources from the galaxy. It is this encouragement then which is truly productive, and which we may somehow be able to inspire through technology. Of course, we cant continue to think of productivity as mere stockpiling of resources anymore. We must realize that to truly be productive is to solve problems.

>>10452266
>However, production does not nessecarily entail destruction.
I disagree. Unless you convert something renewable like the sun's energy into work, the way plants do. The earth has been stockpiling negative entropy (positive energy from the sun) for millions of years and its being used up in just a few centuries. very irresponsible.

>>10443244
Lie detectors for all politicians.

>>10452299
We can harness negative entropy for ourselves though, through our understanding of the laws of physics. We don't have to rely on the earth's stored entropy, at least not very much. Its mostly just for disregard that we do.

Fully automated SLAM weapons governed by a neural network that monitors news, and will initiate MAD if any one nation steps out of line or commits acts of conquest. The ultimate arbiter of peace and prosperity for humanity.

>>10452388
Who would program the ethics? You? Israelis?

>>10443266
Fuck kikes, fuck chankoros and fuck niggers.

>>10452402
It would be a neural network trained by a coalition of reps from all nations

>>10448196
Earth is pretty big, that's pretty minuscule.

>>10449253
How does wood catch fire under water?

>>10452519
Too easily corruptible. Disasyerpus consequences.

>>10444418
this.

>>10452632
Then we're not ready for peace. A philosopher king would be needed.

>>10443256
>>10443266
>>10443291
Total shit. The only thing that works is nuclear

>>10452868
These things do work. Solar panels are inefficient on a massive scale, but a small village could be run off the energy generated by the salt tower. I agree that nuclear is potentially the best solution for massive scales, provided we solve some glaring issues, however, you shouldnt totally discard a potentially useful tool.

>>10452519
Fuck that shit.

>The greater limitation at this point is that we cannot just build windfarms in the middle of the ocean, they must be close to shore lines where the power will be consumed.

Is it possible to make a wind-powered boat that carries a fuck ton of turbines and powers itself back to shore to offload batteries to be used as power?
Could we then use this to send to countries/areas in need of power?
Could this be a military strategy in-case of proximity EMPs?

>>10453168
Absolutely. Its a fun engineering task. You could design one yourself.

>>10453168
>carries a fuck ton of turbines and powers itself back to shore to offload batteries to be used as power?
Just put a cable drum on it.

>>10453168
>wind-powered boat that carries a fuck ton of batteries

Why does everyone that advocates for green energy sound like they are 12.

>>10452631
Undersea volcano.

>>10446152
their power density is minute resources would be better spent on actually effective technologies

solar panels, use power to pump excess water uphill back into reservoirs during the day, tidal barrages.

There is no problem. This plan is absolutely watertight.

>>10443291
Molten salt solar plants have the advantage that unlike photovoltaic they can be built so that they produce energy at night as well if the salt stays warm enough. However they are terribly inefficient considering the space they need.

>>10443244
Sadly as geographically limited as hydro power.

>>10443266
>Breaks down and needs to be replaced
>Cells need to be cleaned using toxic materials
>Dont provide baseload power.

>>10443286
Will hopefully be the end all solution but just not there yet.
The immediate future needs gen iv fission reactors that have zero to negative intake fuel cycles and passive cooling, all of which actually exists and works today.

>>10443734
Haha yeah and during the night we just sleep cause hospitals and other vital industry can run on good hope just as well as electricity!

You fags are delusional if you think that solar and wind are actually things we can base our energy needs on TODAY because even fusion energy is more likely in the near future than some miracle way of storing energy efficiently and without using shitloads of toxic and rare materials.
Go read up on nuclear and if you dont like it because some people told you it has to be bad, eat a fucking bullet.

The only thing worse than climate change deniers are you people who have delusions about how to combat it.

>>10443578
yeah, well we don't

>>10443244

>>10455665
Would solve all of earth's problems.

>>10453944
>actually effective technologies
pray tell what you think those are.

>>10455665
>>10455667
Based and nuclear pilled

>>10443244
Instant neural linking.

I may be a simulation of myself.

If so, that makes me a living BCI. Failure to acknowledge my contributions to history would be like asking for extinction, so hold I the ability to prevent it.

>>10449253
wow great point. confirmed high iq poster

>>10455665
The threat of this will propel us to the stars. Build more nukes.

>>10444083
Methane offgassing, how the fuck am I the first person to say this?

>>10446984
/pol/ is so enterprising