/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10395871
Far. The main difficulty is making a stable neural interface. A lot science, engineering, and even medicine will be necessary to improve neural interfaces. The next problem is making a high bandwidth neural interface, after that getting prosthetics to the point where they are as good as real ones.

I see. As far as time goes I believe that at the rate technology is progressing, it could be possible within the century.

it made me quite anxious, there were a few symbolism in there

Once technology has been perfected to such a degree the ability to exercise free will could disappear

>>10396019
You can thank NATO and the US military for crippling public bioelectromagnetics research in the mid 70's. These interfaces would be here and thensome otherwise.

For better or worse.

I see your argument, however, if we were able to keep humanity alive lone enough to see these advancements, as far as the merge of consciousness with mechanical bodies, much of what is human can be preserved. Keeping the human brain organic and only using neural inferfaces with mechanic bodies could help aswell. I think that 50 ish years ahead we could make at least aging slower, which could help with advancing technology. The most major problems I see would not be making the body, but the inferface between the brain and body, along with powering this body. Thoughts?

What evidence do you have for the suppression of this tech by NATO, US Military? Curious.

>>10396055
It's pointless and infeasible. The body already is finely tuned to providing for all of the brain's needs, it's self maintaining and generally self repairing if you take care of it.

Can you actually even imagine designing something that can do even a tenth of what the liver does, with even a tenth of the efficiency? Do you seriously need a mini nuclear reactor in your body to reliably power its needs? Not to mention all the catalysts and reagents.

I don't even know.

>>10396063
Don't feel like going into it. It has to do with the fundamental nature of intercellular communication, and the related biophysics. Read into "biolectromagnetics" and "magnetobiology" for more.

The short version is "muh radar" "muh cold war".

>>10396063
so much has been suppressed for the public realm because they deem the public to be "not ready"

Just look at walter russell or tesla for example

>>10396074
(and also
>muh mind control
>muh security through obscurity
)

>>10396053
Nice meme. Oh you want to use electromagnetic waves that are orders of magnitude bigger than brain cells to talk/get data from highly specific brain cells, yeah good luck with that.
>>10396074
and yet you aren't providing a single citation.

>>10396079
>get data from
You ever wonder why such waves would affect cells at all?

>and yet you aren't providing a single citation.
Last post.

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/opinion-cell-phone-health-risk-40449

http://www.mediafire.com/folder/dj875cd10yb72/EMF
>Adey 2002 - Re NASNRC PAVE PAWS Committee Meeting, Woods Hole, Sept 9, 2002
>[DIA] Adams 1976 - BIOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF ELECTROMAGNETIC RADIATION (RADIOWAVES AND MICROWAVES) EURASIAN COMMUNIST COUNTRIES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_fdKvJOIyg
Etc. This formed the groundwork for other sectors of industry to piggyback onto, via eg the EPRI, telecom, etc. The field has been muddied ever since. Without their interference, and with proper funding, the problem of inflammation and glial cell clumping would have been far easier to solve because distant communication would be better understood. If you want alternative solutions, look at optic stimulation and magnetoproteins. Also look into "molecular gyroscopes" and cryptochromes, so on. There are many longer range approaches that can be applied alongside much faster, direct mechanisms. Bawin and Adey's 16Hz AM Ca2+ efflux studies come to mind, refer also to followup replications by Carl Blackman.

>>10396079
>highly specific brain cells
Oh and lastly, in that mediafire read the book "pathological effects of radio waves". The highly specific action is one of the major things noted in USSR research. Cells down a long column will be effected, reduced dendritic arborization, their dendrites mishapen and stumpy, then sometimes literally right next to them, near pristine cells. Which is very curious because stuff like NO and peroxynitrite should wander some distance from the source cell, but apparently they cannot overwhelm neighboring antioxidant systems when the field source and the position of the animal are fixed.

>>10395871
donate to sens and well we able to live forever in the next 30 years

>>10395871

robot bodies like that, 10 years.

human brain in a robot body, wont happen, will be easier to fix the person's body. The concept will be looked back at as one of those silly sci fi ideas, ie why didnt they realize it would be easier to fix the original body than all the systems you need in the mechanical suit to babysit a human brain.

mind uploading will happen, but will mostly be seen as retarded and not done.

age pausing and all that (2040s)

>>10395871
>will it be possible to merge organic brains with mechanical bodies while preserving consciousness?
Irrelevant, because consciousness is a meme. There's no need to preserve it because it's doesn't really exist. You don't actually experience qualia, you just think you do.

>>10396162
The only reason we fixate now on mechanical bodies is because we have no idea how to maintain a biological body and it seems all messy and baffling and difficult. When we do finally get a good grip on this problem, the interest in brain transference to robots will fade away.

>>10396162
>>robot bodies like that, 10 years
bullshit.
>>easier to fix the original body
we understand engineering a heck of a lot better than we do biology. For the foreseable future biology will remain a shit show.
>>10396180
>>all messy and baffling
and what makes you think that will change at all in the near term? Plus robot bodies can be more versatile. For example, one could have more direct control over a fighter jet by direct neural interface, being able to control individual airelons and feel turbulence almost like a bird does with its wings.

>>10396180

Things will begin to move miraculously fast on it once we have AI's, beyond 100+ IQ range, to do the work. For a couple of reasons:

AI's will be able to sit and do nothing and work on it 24/7/365; see how that works with humans. AI's can read everything ever written on a subject, and factor it in to their work, again impossible for a person, and their IQ will continuously be advancing.

In the mean time its all well and good to just prod things along

>>10396198
>bullshit.

they will be at that level by 2025, the only tricky part is going to be the hands

>>10396207
AI will destroy the house of cards status quo. They won't let it happen.

As far as those who say 10-20 years, what are you basing your timeframe on?

>>10396211
You fail to grasp how difficult it is to make a robot body more performant than a real one. Energy storage is a problem, but there are a vast amount of problems related to making sensors and actuators. It is very difficult to make tactile sensors especially touch sensors that can cover the entire body. Some touch reception also requires that the skin be able to stretch, which is problematic because soft materials aren't very durable. In addition we don't understand perception of touch that well so we don't know what we should engineer. Actuators are a problem, we need actuators that have a higher torque/force density than muscle while still being responsive. In addition, we are now discovering that it is necessary to control more than just actuator position. We also need to control torque, stiffness, impedance, damping, and possibly even more. Integrating all these complicate actuators and sensors will be very difficult. Then there's the problem of making all that last millions of cycles of use. Especially soft material. Currently we do not have soft materials which don't experience stress relaxation. So mechanical bodies have some disadvantages to deal with that make all this even harder. Biological systems have parts that fulfill multiple roles. For example, muscles and many other body parts also store energy. So batteries have to be more energy dense, the skeleton must be lighter, and actuators must be more torque dense just to achieve the same overall performance. And this is before we get into some of the bullshit capabilities the berserker body had in the manga.

>>10396270
This. I grew up with Ghost in the Shell and other related stuff.

Pretty much, the logic is based on the observation that certain machines are way better than you in certain tasks. A hydraulic arm can lift more and hold a fixed position easily. Electromechanical devices like can openers can rotate things much better. Etc. The problem is it can't be readily extended to a general purpose system that has the range of the human body. Just because some systems are better, doesn't mean you can make one system that is better for everything.

>>10396270

tldr,

i dont debate people, but would direct you to glance at what is already publicly demonstrated in humanoid robotics.

the only thing dragging is copying human hands

As far as the various complexities of the human body being replicated in the mechanical, could it be possible to have a mechanical “skeleton “ so to speak, containing nanotechnology which could carry out various functions like cells, if not more? There has already been “clouds” of Nanotechnology (see Dr John Storrs Hall.) could it be feasible to utilize this tech to improve on a mechanical and neural inferfaces? The main problem I see with these mechanical bodies and bots are 1.powering it all and 2. Making it out of materials that would last for very, very long periods of time.

>>10396216
what do you mean? All clues point towards it being a tool for enslavement. They WANT it

>>10396429
They want it on their terms, like always. Anything that entails power or change they only allow it if it's under their control.

I think we ascribe "them" with a bit too much power, tend to assume their plans are more long term, all encompassing, and well thought out than they really are. I used to, and internally still, tend to think like this, because I've lived my whole life treated like cattle surrounded by morons in this Pavlovian rat hell. This breaks you down and makes you see them like Gods.

The fact is they've made major, irrecoverable mistakes. Right now they're scrambling to depopulate and there's a mishmash of the usual steps happening all at once (contain, quantify, control, extinguish). It's a mess. Their infrastructure and resources are formidable, but an AI used in the way that other poster described would be formidable, and more importantly, can outlive its creator and the biases of its culture of origin.

The AI us cattle would make use of differs in its nature from the large scale surveillance and control network desired by the elite. Differences here is that unfortunately most people don't even know what's technologically possible at this point, they're not just going to be controlling you through your environment or external means. So something immune to this kind of electromagnetic and chemical tampering would be useful.

The window is definitely closing though.

>>10396336
>>already publicly demonstrated in humanoid robotics.
are absolute trash. You were going to post the video of atlas weren't you? Atlas has quite a ways to go. While hydraulics are powerful, they aren't very efficient. Needless to say the battery life isn't that great, it's on the order of 30 minutes. And again, notice that atlas while humanoid isn't entirely humaniform. Making a robot body that is humaniform to the point where it is almost unnoticeable under clothes is quite difficult. Now instead of building arms however we like, we must build them to have the appearance of human arms. We may need moving parts which contribute nothing to lifting for the sole purpose of being humaniform.
>>10396281
just because it isn't easy doesn't make it impossible.
>>10396421
>>Nanotechnology
>>could it be feasible to utilize this tech to improve on a mechanical and neural inferfaces
absolutely
>>Making it out of materials that would last for very
with molecular nanotechnology you can make stuff out of fucking diamond, or make things complex enough such that self repair may be possible.
>>powering it all
is easy if you have molecular nanotechnology. The problem is actually making molecular nanotechnology. We don't know if molecular nanotechnology can be practically made at all. The proposed method of mechanosynthesis might be impossible or impractical. It's going to take a lot of very difficult lab work to determine whether it is practical. I say practical because while we may determine a means to make such molecular nanotechnology we may not be able to make it at high yields, it might require too many resources, or it might not scale. For example, the tool tips for picking and bonding atoms might fail faster than they can be recharged, meaning a more or less constant supply of tooltips is required. Unfortunately, because tooltips can't be made with solution phase chemistry we can't produce this constant supply of tooltips at a very large scale, ever.

>>10396932
>just because it isn't easy doesn't make it impossible.
I didn't say impossible.

The problem with nanotech is that our own bodies are already self maintaining, self replicating, programmable machinery. We're already made of nanotech. The use of exotic self assembling and repairing materials is that their logic can go astray and in general the body mounts a major inflammatory response in their presence. Even carbon nanofibers are rejected. C8 is known to be carcinogenic and teratogenic. Larger materials like C60 vary. Etc. So with nanotech you're stuck either either with little piezoelectric etc compounds arranged with some scaffolding, gene insertion, or genetically engineered bacteria.

Magnetoproteins are the only method of coupling I know of that will work. Alternatively using silica to make little self assembling tubes to connect to some array for optic stimulation.

>>10396951
>>already self maintaining, self replicating, programmable machinery.
you can make materials durable enough that either they never need to be replaced or that they last long enough that you don't care about replacing them. Industrial robot arms are good for more than 10 years of continuous operation. In this case you don't need self-repair.
>>logic can go astray
just use check sums
>>major inflammatory response in their presence
if you've got molecular nanotechnology where you ca build stuff up atom by atom you can avoid this. One can make whatever you intend you put in the body such that proteins won't be able to stick to it and thus no immune response can occur. Or one can make the surface of the things you put in the body appear to the immune system as cells. I would encourage you to read this report here, but honestly it's a waste of time because we don't know whether we can practically manufacture molecular nanotechnology
http://www.imm.org/reports/rep020/
>>piezoelectric arranged with some scaffolding
uhh... what?
>>gene insertion
is not something we do much of in living humans, because it causes problems with the immune system
>>genetically engineered bacteria
would probably be attacked by the immune system. Would be more prone to going astray because logic based on biology is very noisy.
>>Magnetoproteins are the only method of coupling I know of that will work
what are you talking about
>>Alternatively using silica to make little self assembling tubes
so you want to make sand in people. That doesn't sound very healthy.
>>optic stimulation
means you have to modify the genes of the neuron you're talking too. You can't read information that way. Solving the problems with microelectrode array neural interfaces can probably be done without invoking basically magical molecular nanotechnology. It's just going to take a lot of hard science, engineering, and medicine. There's no magic bullet, just a bunch of trial and error.

>>>/wsg/2694898
not that far, read the last sentence

>>10395871
>>10397346

Thanks so much for all the input! I appreciate all you guys helping me out.