/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10386883
Everyone has known for a while that CS is trash.

The real reality is that middle and upper management don't understand that more bad coders aren't going to fix their techno issues. The best paradigm for code development now is also the biggest threat to lots of poor skilled coders, Dev Ops or die baby.

I've seen this before with the whole 'we can employ Indian coders for nearly free!' bullshit, it's not going to work any better with a domestic workforce in place of a cheap foreign one.

>>10386907
Indians will do anything you tell them to, and nothing more. Meaning they cannot innovate at all, and need to be handheld through everything.

>>10386921
>Meaning they cannot innovate at all
Oh no, they really can innovate. But the majority of the time the innovation is something you absolutely would never have wanted in a million years. I'm trying to remember a specific thing I'd heard from a web dev, but it's often really similar stuff to this: they were building a website for maybe a car dealership (don't remember), they'd got a small group of Indian devs to build part of the front end, and the Indian guys sent back a shitty website with lots of random pictures of maybe owls (don't remember) because it shows the company has lots of wisdom (I think that's actually what was said). I think they were meant to develop a simple form in js or something, I can't imagine that was good either.

I tried going down that route, but really everything you're going to get them to do shouldn't be saving you time most of the time. You spend a lot of time defining the problem as simply and clearly as possible, then sometimes also get back some try hard trash like above. Western programmers are not immune to this either, I guess it comes down to trying too hard to be smart and impress and failing, but they don't usually go as... weird as their more Easterly counterparts.

I'm an engineer. Ever since the industrial revolution people have said "Become an engineer". Yet there has been a shortage for engineers since their start which is 150 years now. And the gap between jobs and people qualified to do them is only growing every single year

I think programmers will be the same the demand for programmers is most likely going to grow a lot faster than the ability for new people to enter the market meaning there will always be a shortage of them. Just like with Engineers.

>>10386938
Engineering is filled with unemployment somewhat

>>10386883
OP and anybody else claiming that is confirmed for brainlet.

I'm in few facebook groups where various companies are seeking people to join, most of them are basically web dev junior position, other software engineering. THERE IS LITERARY DOZEN OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE (RECRUITERS) EVERYDAY POSTING WHAT THEY ARE SEEKING FOR AND WHAT THE REQUIEREMENTS/SALARY/BENEFITS ARE.

And these are just few facebook groups, then if I actually go on internet and write into google that I'm looking for 'x' job, I get additionally tens of offers for various jobs. It's like there's not enough people currently in IT.
So go fuck yourself you retarded OP(which ever shitty country you are from) and anyone else claiming there is "no job offers".

>>10387043
Also to contribute to that, think of your average human being outside of 4chan. Either they are too stupid with computers in the first place or too lazy and motivated to learn how to program or even start, since it's intimidating. Now divide those people with 10 (since most work some manual repetitive job) and you get the people that are left and ready to learn how to make websites or write back-end for applications.

It's really a small circle when you step outside of it for a second and realize there's not really a lot of people that have any knowledge about writing code, let alone ever completing a project on their own.

>>10387055
Pajeet

>>10387043
Those are webmonkey pajeetware programming jobs, not computer science jobs, retard.

>>10387144
>>10387152

Idk then, pajeet jobs are still comfy with clean office, good salary, working from home 2 times per week and a lot of benefits, so you can go independent whenever you want.. 99% of people on /sci/ are too retarded to even land that job, let alone something to do with ML/AI or being a quant in finance.

>>10387036
Not structural unemployment. There are 8 more open vacancies than people that have an engineering degree.

The unemployment comes from the fact that people only search locally or aren't able to move to the country with job openings freely. It's circumstantial unemployment. Not structural.

>>10387162
Have fun shitting in the clean office building. Its really sad seeing that you are passionate in your job only because it have high salary and good welfare. Dream big, and do what you think humanity really needs. In my case, its making a world into my personal sex dungein.

>>10386883
No. Not everyone will be able to graduate with a CS degree. A large percentage of people studying CS end up changing their major

>>10386883
>he thinks cs is coding
>he thinks cs majors get coding jobs
>he doesn't realize these coding jobs are already oversaturated
You know I'd waste my time explaining things but /sci/tards are too stupid for logic so why the hell would I waste my time on the ignorant?

For that matter, why waste time on people who make less than me?

>>10386889
that is just because of shitty american colleges that call their SE/webdev course computer science
any decent CS course will have those already

>>10387291
>that is just because of shitty american colleges that call their SE/webdev course computer science
You have got to be fucking retarded.
Find me one top university that does this.
Go ahead brainlet.

>>10386883
Maybe, I'm a technician in the field and I have to do a little bit of coding, most of it is proprietary engineering stuff for automation though. Your best bet for getting a job is to just differentiate yourself from the applicants. If you got a CS degree, think about what field you want to work for and build up some skills. Make sure to have a portfolio if you're a coder. As a tech, I've had to take aptitude tests as part of the interview. The employer doesn't care about your degree, only about how much money you can make them.

>>10386907
Have a buddy in Dev ops, he's a sharp guy.

>>10387371
>shitty american colleges
>top university
what

>>10387388
>he thinks shit euro unis are better
top fucking kek what a delusional fuck
But let me guess, you gave this stupid reply because like the retard that you are you couldn't find any evidence to prove your lies?

This is the part where you keep your mouth shut because you know you got caught spouting shit.

>>10387786
I said shitty not top you dumbtruck

>>10387797
Alright then post a group of shit universities that do offer web dev as a computer science degree.
Go ahead.
When you can't find any apologize

>>10386883
Like engineering, there will always be demand for experienced developers and computer scientists.
The problem is that most people just have no talent or drive for the field.

>>10387171
Or they're simply unemployable. Theres a nonzero amount of people with engineering degrees that are useless because they never actually learned or built anything during their education.

>>10387877
http://neumont.smartcatalogiq.com/en/2017-2018/Catalog/Bachelor-of-Science-Programs/Bachelor-of-Science-Degree-Program-Overview/Bachelor-of-Science-in-Computer-Science
this seems to let you get a "bsc computer science" with the bare minimum of maths
Maybe saying "pure web dev" is a bit much, but computer science is definitely a word that has been used in a very varied selection of ways

I could keep going through the college lists on wikipedia for out-in-the-woods states but is it really worth it

>>10387940
Just like there will always be a demand for lawyers?

>>10387957
Lawyers created their own demand lmao. As long as lawyers exist there will be a demand for lawyers because if one guy has one and the other doesn't then the other guy loses, like there will be a demand for guns as long as guns exist.

Engineers build things so maybe

>>10387966
The job market for lawyers has been shit for like a decade

>>10387978
Well your grades matter in law. Nobody hires a bad lawyer because they want to win.

>>10387954
That is a for-profit college (AKA not a real college). Everybody knows for-profit colleges are extremely low quality.

>>10387291
But they still learn advanced math like discreet mathematics and algorithms

>>10387994
so it would fail the accredited part?

>>10388010
Most legit colleges and universities are accredited by regional organizations. They refuse to accept academic credit from students who are transferring from for-profit schools because those schools are not regionally accredited.

>>10388007
imagine believing pic related

>>10386883
What is coding? Some newfriend meme?

>>10387978
Really?

>>10388092
>she doesn't know what american schools are like

>>10388100
In Europe lawyers were always considered lower middle class citizens. Only in the US were they considered high class. It was only a matter of time before that changed.

>>10388134
absolutely full of shit and divorced from reality

>>10388007
top jej

>>10386883
It depends, there's coder and coder. People who work at Google and people who work in an outsourced code factory in India are different in skill and intelligence by orders of magnitude.

>>10386883
>It's just a sign that everyone has caught on and people entering CS now won't get a job because it's saturated?
CS major here. This is completely true. No more getting paid to write for loops and play magic the gathering all day. The dream is over.

>>10388134
120k EUR in Germany is somehow lower-middle-class? Get a life weirdo.

>>10386883
>that pic
It is amazing how much free publicity *pple gets from homosexual designers and artists who worship their products. The vast majority of laptops in the United States, in the western world, and the world in general - are not made by *pple. Yet this artist that took his time to draw four different ethnicities to make the picture inclusive and relateable to the majority of people, he intentionally drew a fruit logo on the back of the laptop - a logo that is available only to the wealthy.

>>10386907
My company is doomed. The CEO just learned about open source and thinks it will replace all of our software. He actually said "The nerds love this shit. They'll do it all for us for free". Bet he lays off everyone who knows our current systems and tasks managers with finding and installing open source versions of everything that makes the company operate. The flame out is going to be spectacular.

>>10386883
solution:
don't work for others.
create something novel.

>>10388326
the fuck is class anyway, its a self-interested fantasy delusion. whether you think you're up or down either way you're gettin rekt.
i come from britain where the concept of class is oh so strong. its hilarious. people are really quite insane and detached from reality.
muh mind has been replaced with pyramids
divide and conquer i guess

>>10386883
Where were you when "coding" became the hottest education meme? When I was a kid, just seeming like I knew anything about a computer made me an automatic genius.

>>10386883
The programming meme is just perpetrated by large companies so they can get much cheaper programmers. CS is a fucking joke too.

>>10387173
literally a pajeet formatted post. Yet you have the nerve to call others a pajeet. KYS.

>>10386883
well right now I have an offer from different big companies for an apprenticeship as:
>Software developer (Dynamic AX)
>Industrial Electrician

which one should i pick?

>>10389155
do the electrician route, programming is extremely oversaturated and constantly being outsourced. It's a dying profession and constantly being dumbed down.

>>10389157
People in Germany tell me the complete opposit tho. Both companies offer a lot of social benefits and good money for the start. I'm also eager to continue studying after the apprenticeship, but would like to have solid experience in a field.

I know a guy who works for this company, he is a "It solutions architect" and makes 100k a year, which is alot in germany. He didn't even studied, but attended an advanced training program from microsoft and has now the same level of education as someone with a master.

This guy also offered me the apprenticeship in that company, because he showed me how Headhunter were looking for him to work for them. I'm uncertain about my decision after hearing so much downtalk from different sources.

Thank you anon for your insight tho. Both things sound like a fun profession. The only problem is that I would want to work in that field for the rest of my life

Don't listen to to "oversaturation" meme. Remember that only 20% of adults in first world countries have access to a bachelors degree. And less than 10% of those degrees are within STEM.

You are literally in the top 2% of a first world country simply by holding a STEM bachelors degree and within the top 0.01% globally.

/sci/ loves to meme a lot and throw banter at everyone but it's important to keep one foot in reality and realize just how scarce educated people actually are. You aren't going to be unemployed.

>>10389174
spotted the university shill

>>10386889
There are CS degrees where those things aren't mandatory?

>>10386883
If you know how to program, you'll get a job. Though there are programs/curriculum that I know of that give you enough skills unto themselves. You always have to learn on the side. In both CS and CE.

>>10389200
>are
are no*

>>10386883
As a neet, CS is important to me. Lots of added value, lots of neetbucks

>>10387954
>I ask for a legit university
>post a scam ""college""
And you people wonder why I call you retarded.

So ready to admit you don't have shit?

>>10389174
in scotland anyone can go to university for free, they pay it back when earning over £25,000

>>10389174
"top 2%"
"within the top 0.01%"
what do you mean top???
are you an elitist?
fag

>>10389527
top of the distribution. It's a statistics term you mong

>>10388538

>>10389140
dig a little deeper

>>10389549
>>10388538
I can certainly agree that some people have no place in management, but it's the people too concerned with pocketing a bonus and not able to keep up with how their workforce operates.

>>10389277
but anon that is my point
colleges like that are the reason they have to be specific in the job listings

>>10386936
Are you sure you aren't being too harsh on people that have completely different aesthetical mindsets and are not so keen on the idea of being driven like westerns ?

>>10386883
Long time cs oldfag here and let me drop some
>yuge demand for "good" programmers
>yuge supply of "shitty" koders
Nothing seems to be working out.
>get a degree/minor in either math or economics along with your CS major and you're golden. You'll be sucked right into some company with a yuge comp.

the most wanted coders can do algorithms/science (particularly physics) as well as just coding. They are the ones who will win out in this area because coding is too easy for the average dropout to pick up, you need a wider relevant skill set to stand out.

With a stand-alone CS degree, you'll know CS but no science. Verbal communication with scientists/engineers in your company to work on projects has much lower bandwidth than your ability to apply scientific reasoning to programming problems in your head yourself.

Many CS grads will have a reasonably good science background, but this fact will put an end to dropout coders as the job market becomes more saturated.

>>10388538
he's actually right on that one though

>>10389937
I think the thing to bear in mind is that in that case both Westerners and Easterners are shitty and cheap and in general it's just best to avoid. My hope had been to find a low to medium skill coder or two to get stuff done in my downtime from a freelancing site so that when I sat down to work it felt more like I was putting in the high quality last 20% to get the thing perfect rather than doing 100%. I think if I were to do it again it's either got to be finding unicorns on forums or setting up teams in situ with a fair amount of hands on in person time.

>>10390182
Also I'd probably do teams in UK/Ireland, Hong Kong/Taiwan and Cali to start with, then there's someone always working. The developed parts of India are not in the best timezones.

>>10386883
>learn 2 code

absolute dumb mike rowe horseshit championed by neolibs trying to divert blame for the effects globalization and capital accumulation onto individuals. Once the gig coding economy is full swing and the biotechnology bubble starts, it'll be "learn 2 do SDS-PAGE assays" or some bullshit. It will never stop. What we really need to learn to do is to unionize and take political power back from billionaires. General strike now.

>>10390217
I know how to do SDS page though!

>>10390217
Lel frig off commie fuck.
>part of the game is to convince the poor that they are just millionaire having a bd day. That they are just one "hard work" away from a fortune. it's comfy here on the top stop derailing my existence

>>10390232
Same. We should offer classes.

>>10390232
>literally who cares nigger

>>10390232
So do I! But it's fundamentally unsustainable to have any branch of science as the default career path. I don't want my future kids to go to high school and get needled into majoring in biology so they can "make money" as adults. I would be a failure of a father if I didn't instill a love of science and mathematics in them, but at the same time I'd be just as much of a failure if I helped build a world that narrowed their horizons that much.

>>10390237
>he makes the temporarily embarrassed millionaire point so I don't have to
Thanks for being honest, porky. You'll get the guillotine instead of the wall.

>>10390254
Biologists have it hard but you're right. It's not a solution to pass the ball.

cs is a meme, seriously, the sheer number of youtubers doing A.I and coding etc should alarm you.