/sci/ - Science & Math

What about Computer Engineering?

>>10381164
>writes this on a computer
>shits on computer scientists

what did op mean by this?

>>10381166
Superior to CS in literally every way, still shit though.

>>10381164
I'm a CS brainlet but discrete math was a joke of a paper would I be fine in mathematics

>>10381166

>>10381197
No.

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html

Reminder that even computer scientists think CS education is a joke.

>>10381197
As a CS brainlet that just finished discrete math this semester and did well, I must say it's not that math "hard", it's that they shove assignments down our throats every week that take multiple hours every day to finish, so you end up having 1-2 hours of free time per day, where I usually went to the gym, but now I have to spend them on learning maths instead, because math is the only subject where we don't have deadlines for assignments and have to do it on our own.

It's fucking joke, I spent more time on assignments such as exploring Word, Excell and other fucking user software than studying math and programming.

What the fuck are they thinking.

>>10381164

But CS is a science that uses mathematics and engineering...

>>10381270
>it's that they shove assignments down our throats every week that take multiple hours every day to finish
No, you're just a brainlet.

>>10381164
Tfw was too stupid for physics beyond undergrad level, so switched to CS after getting my bachelor's degree :^(

>>10381270
>had to spend all of your time on learning discrete math

Being retarded is hard, anon, I know.

>>10381307
So you got a graduate degree in CS or did you go full retard and went for a second bachelors?

Why is discrete math taught in universities at all? That shit is high school level.

>>10381319
It's 5th grade material.

can someone explain to me why EE is superior to CE?

>>10381290
>>10381311

Pretty sure you'd be in the same boat as me at our uni, unless you have no life whatsoever and don't socialize with anyone outside 4chan.
So while CS remains in top 5 hardest fields (math, physics, chemistry and EE being harder), there are always retards on internet calling you retarded for struggling at something that is statistically looking too hard for 95% of the people anyway, since they wagecuck mostly or do some trivial jobs where abstract thinking isn't part of their job or lives.

Okay, time to leave /sci/ today.

>>10381345
Computers are electronics, so computer engineering is a subset of electrical engineering, making EE always superior to it.

>>10381350
>So while CS remains in top 5 hardest fields (math, physics, chemistry and EE being harder)
lmao no, a bunch of other engineering degrees like mechanical, chemical, computer, aerospace, etc are way harder. The only STEM degree easier than CS is biology.

>>10381359
but aren't the abstract applications of math through circuitry unique to computer science?

other question, do you learn everything in CE from EE or is there stuff only CE has?

>>10381345
You exchange advanced EE topics for baby CS courses like data structures and discrete math.

>>10381350
Discrete math is objectively easy as shit.

>>10381377
I didn't say discrete math is hard, I'm saying that we were left with almost no time to study it, since we had deadlines for other subjects and assignments that made your soul suffer since they were so badly written and miss guided you for the most part, stealing even more time.

>>10381367
>but aren't the abstract applications of math through circuitry unique to computer science?
No.

>>10381164
>engineering
When will engineer niggers realize they are even worse than CS autists?

>>10381387
>since they were so badly written and miss guided you for the most part, stealing even more time.

Pointy-haired Bosses do the same thing in real life. It's a test to see if you're not autistic enough to ask for clarification rather than wasting your time.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=470&v=BhAt-7i36G8
>Savage sees basically everything in life as an exercise in problem-solving, and he makes a series of points about his process for solving problems. My favorite is an anecdote about MythBusters cohost Jamie Hyneman. Hyneman asks people around the MythBusters shop to "drill a hole in the X," draws an X on a piece of wood, and walks away. The result reveals a crucial problem with communication: what does "in the X" mean? Does it mean the intersection of the X, the corners of the X, the entire drawing of the X? People interpret the problem statement differently, but proceed to act on whatever they think is the right action.

>>10381289
delet this

>>10381367
I was shitposting. There's stuff only CE has that's more specialized, that most EEs won't learn.

>abstract applications of math through circuitry unique to computer science?
CS is arguably independent of digital computers (or even physical ones), but it's pretty much been taken over by people who want "usable" knowledge with "career opportunities", so programming gets the spotlight despite really being applied CS.

>>10381408
You have no idea how many times I mailed my professors for clarifications, while others were looking at me weird when I told them I mailed my professors and they rather suffered another day or two before coming to solutions and figuring out what they actually had to do and what step it took to solve some assignments step in many of the steps.

I wasted no time on that bullshit and abused preofessors on their own terms as much as I could, because I could care less about some bullshit.

>>10381408
>adam savage can't follow simple instructions

>>10381424
You're lucky that you have professors who respond to requests like that. I have one right now who will only respond to questions not about the exact part of the lecture he's on during office hours, office hours are 1 hour in the early morning twice a week, and if you go he tells you he won't help you with the homework, which isn't really about the topics he covers in class.

Will be transferring to Math next semester. Would I be able to easily learn CS topics?

>>10381472
Yes, in fact you'll be able to learn CS topics in far more depth than CS majors.

I'm starting a CS degree this fall (due to genuine interest in the subject matter and money) and am probably intelligent enough for any other STEM degree. Am I making a mistake or are all of these threads just autistic larping?

>>10381733
I recommend you take a look at what kind of website you're on.

>>10381733
Depends, what do you like about CS? These degrees tend to teach these topics at a very superficial level and depending on what you like you might be better on math or EE.

>It's another mathfag-believes-he-can-get-first-hiring-consideration-for-any-CS-job episode
Have fun being minimum-wage teachers, suckers.

>>10381767
I'm interested in CS because it seems to involve a high amount of logic and mathematics honestly. I'm considering majoring in pure math instead but there just doesn't seem to be much money in the field

Theoretical CS is fine. I think the problem is that CS, as a field of study (read: not as an undergraduate major) is a mix of pure mathematics and engineering. but so many people want the degree that they cater to software development programs because that's where all the money is (i.e. the more students they have enrolled in a CS program, the fatter stacks the theorists and systems researchers can make). I do think there are a few good schools (particularly research institutions on either coast, like Berkeley, CMU, Rutgers, MIT, Stony Brook), University of Illinois Champagne-Urbana, University of Texas, etc. that have amazing theory CS faculty if you want to do research about what the field *actually* is, but I'd recommend double majoring in math so that every elective you might take for CS becomes an actual requirement. Modern complexity theory is a lot of fourier analysis/harmonics, spectral theory, topics in modern algebra, combinatorics, geometry, etc. A lot of it is analogues to what you see in more "traditional" mathematics, even from elementary things like how difference equations are just discretized differentials and it extends to arbitrary dimensions. etc.

Also, I've heard hit or miss things about discrete math. I topic a topics in discrete math class with a CS professor, and he taught exclusively from his notes (though he cited various textbooks for different subjects). That was by far one of the hardest classes I had ever taken.

>>10381420
>CS is arguably independent of digital computers (or even physical ones), but it's pretty much been taken over by people who want "usable" knowledge with "career opportunities", so programming gets the spotlight despite really being applied CS.
Essentially this. People who claim that CE encapsulates CS don't really understand what CS past entry level career opportunities. Writing code for a company is not a "CS" job. Making new algorithms, doing mathematics in complexity theory and geometry, embedded, new methods for network like in ad hoc, learning on signals, etc. etc. are some actual CS jobs.

Damn it, CS should have remained strictly a graduate degree

lol I love how the obviously superior CS degree triggers insecure brainlets who couldn't hack it.

>>10381811
*I took a topics in

>>10381164
CS isn't a real science because it's a branch of math

>>10381811
>but I'd recommend double majoring in math so that every elective you might take for CS becomes an actual requirement.
So is a CS degree by itself worthless?

>>10382210
yeah, it's not like it has the most job opportunities and high salary after finishing it, completely a meme right?

>>10381787
Label your axes

>>10381164
I don't give a fuck about Engineering or Mathematics though. Actually I do like Mathematics but not enough to make a career out of it.
Literally the only reason I'm going to get a CS degree is just so I can have more opportunities. I already know how to program. I've written compilers and am working on an OS as a pet project, and I have made websites in a plethora of different language stacks.
I don't understand the whole CS hate boner you guys have. I mean Engineering is cool but jeeze man.
All I want out of my life is a job doing low level programming. I don't want to write stupid shitty sites for a dumbass SJW company run by niggers.
Why is that such a bad thing.

>tfw /sci/ bullying made me change to computer engineering from CS

>>10382301
same, I changed to the superior EE though.

>>10382297
>All I want out of my life is a job doing low level programming.
Then you should be majoring in CpE or EE

>>10382305
>tfw feel kind of dumb because CE is basically EE with focus on software dev topics instead of advanced electrical courses
NO NO NO NO NO

ITS HAPPENING AGAIN

>>10382231
>muh job security
>college is job training
This is why sci hates CS.

>>10382314
At my school CpE differs only by 3 courses from EE, it's not that bad even if technically it's still inferior.

>>10382276
They are very clearly labeled.

>>10382311

You do not have to major in anything to do low-level programming. Teacher it yourself.

>>10381790
You should be doing math instead and take as many theorical CS electives as you can then, every CS degree has plenty of courses like OS or networks and at least one laughable software """"engineering"""" course that have nothing to do with what you enjoy.

>>10382317
You can't expect much else from a board dominated by Americans. The cost of attending a quality university means you don't get to study something just because you have a passion for it.

>>10381164
OK OP. Prove whether P=NP. Show us how easy it is.

>>10382317

/sci/ hates CS because CS and programming are intertwined, and the majority on /sci/ failed their attempt(s) at programming either at home or at school because they lack intellect and lack creativity and get easily frustrated, so now they have this "chip" on their shoulder after realizing that they will never be able to write useful software. It is just resentment. I can see right through it.

>>10382374
In terms of career prospects though wouldn't I be better off doing CS and taking as many math electives as possible?

>>10382426
If you're only interested in career prospects you shouldn't be doing anything stem

pure math is boring

>>10381733
CS is a good major, 4chan is for angry virgins

>>10382452
code monkeying is much better, right?

>>10382210
If you want to get into entry level jobs and do some software engineering, the CS degree by itself is fine. If you want to go hard and do true CS, then you'll be naturally led to mathematics alongside CS. It's not that the program is necessarily bad, but that there isn't amazing incentive for many schools apart from the top 30 to teach CS in a rigorous manner. Many CS programs that are offered by a rich research staff have really good classes and professors where you can learn a lot. It's just the consequence of the undergrad education being in its infancy. Either way, the degree is by no means useless, since it's a very attractive piece of paper to employers.

>>10382511
>If you want to get into entry level jobs and do some software engineering, the CS degree by itself is fine.
iow it's useless since every other stem degree can get you a code monkey job.

>>10382394
Nah, I'd say it's equal parts because it's a meme to hate CS, growing pains of being a new field, people trying to give credence / legitimacy to their own career paths (especially among those who are firmly convinced that their major gives them the education to do anything they want), and because they don't really understand what CS is past bad undergrad programs or basic software engineering. Hell, the blue man meme literally tries to decry the legitimacy of even arguing in favor of CS.

So you have a bunch of math and engineering majors who think Sipser is the peak of computer science theory, when it is literally the first few papers on CS compiled into an introductory book. What CS needs is a more consistent undergrad and more non-springer textbooks that exposes undergrads to high level ideas in CS. Right now, we have to ask people to read arxiv papers to show them.

>>10382526
But not every degree gets you into a software engineering job as easily or as quickly, and many ask you to wade through even more front end or introductory work before you get to the interesting parts. I've yet to see many engineering majors make good thread libraries or even work well in parallel computing jobs.

Not all jobs that involve code are code monkey jobs. I have always seen cryptography jobs taken by bright CS majors (who are actually good at math at that) over CpE and EE majors during my few internships in undergrad.

>>10381733
You are making a mistake. Go EE, math och CE insted.

>>10382276
The mathfag superior brain, everybody.

>>10381787
>proving /sci/ point that in stem CS is only harder than biology and industrial """""""""""""engineering""""""""""""
kek

>>10382497
yes

>>10382331
It's about 4 advanced EE units that CE avoids but we get to take about 2 advanced IT units + I can do security units too.

CE is a better option for me

>>10381164
>CS hate thread
did windows update while you were watching your gay porn or something?

>>10381822
Computational mathematics is pretty much CS

CS is IT and software dev that touches on mathematics.

>>10381787
Anything putting an average undergrad IQ at >130 is bullshit, even for specific stem majors

Computer Science is just applied math. Sure, entry level CS courses are easy compared to entry level math courses, but at some point, programming requires a higher level of mathematical thinking.

It has more to do with what school you go to.

Art history at Harvard is more difficult than any STEM major at your average state university.

inb4 brainlet retards who couldn't get into good schools start flaming me

>>10383160
Blacks are taking those courses. They cant be that hard.

>>10383160
This isn't true. I've taken classes at community college, 2 midtier universites, and a top 20 university in the Unnited States. The main difference between them is the quality of the teachers.

Cs fag: gets cs jobs
Mathfag: shitpost on an anonymous imageboard about how superior they supposedly are to csfags, probably has a shitty cs job as well

isn't the point to do something you like and get paid for it?

>>10383160
>The classic "well, your school must be shit" ad hominem

>>10382968
Oh arxiv and in the US, what you call computational mathematics is CS. CS might be watered down in more than a few unis, but I don't think it's hit IT tier yet

>>10381164
engineering is for people too stupid for mathematics and real science (physics)

>>10381472
>>10381485
This. To expand on the answer, CS courses skim over a lot of the details that you will cover if you just studied the books directly. The material isn't difficult nor dense, just voluminous at times.

>>10383160
sir, that is quite frankly a retarded assertion

>>10383224
I'm sorry you went to a shitty school. If you weren't a brainlet, maybe you'd get higher SAT scores.

>>10382559
Which companies have cryptography jobs? If you mean the nsa, I thought they only hours math majors

>>10381733

You're making a mistake. The majority of students in CS don't care about anything (neither the math, theory of computation, nor the practice of coding and designing systems) but just want to get a cozy moderately well-paying job that they can half ass. The courses move slowly due to these unpassionate students not putting in any effort and all group assignments will inevitably turn into you doing all the work anyway. You'll end up learning way slower than if you just went at it via self study.

>>10383230
>he thinks high fat scores can get into Harvard
OH NO NO NO
>sees Harvard grade inflation rates
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>10382426
You don't need a CS degree to get a CS job. All you need is any degree (to get pass HR) and a portfolio of projects.

>>10382374
>take as many theorical CS electives
You're better off taking CS graduate courses. See if your university has a 5 year Math-BS+Compsci-MS program that you could sign up for.

>>10383241
t. brainlet who got low SAT scores

>>10383245
T. Dunning-kreugerlet who thinks getting a high sat score makes him deserve an acceptance on academic grounds.
Newsflash: there are far more students with perfect sat scores than there are slots for academically gifted students at Harvard. If you want to get in on an academic basis you need either impactful, published research or a good performance on the IMO, IPhO, IOI, ICO, etc.

>>10381377
My father has a masters in EE and he had no idea how to do discrete math

>>10383309
And I don't know how to swim. Your point?

>>10383163
there are niggers in every american degree, this is why america's education is a joke, I mean they do differential and integral calculus in college lmao, they have to make sure some niggers don't fail

>>10383309
discrete math is a pretty straightforward class but it's a prerequisite for really difficult courses like real analysis and abstract algebra.

those math classes are a lot harder than anything an engineer studies

>>10383235
NSA, any "Big Four" company (though really, think any top company that deals in mass scale transactions) like Google or Amazon, private security companies that specialize in cryptosystems, industry cryptography research, etc etc. There are a lot of good cryptography jobs out there.

Also the NSA has listings for both math and CS majors.

The problem is that people are split between hating on the CS major for serving the lowest common denominator and hating on the field of CS because they don't really know what it's about. I feel like /sci/ is too far up its ass to enjoy the really cool problems from complexity theory. All we hear about here is just "durr CS major stupid."

t. physics grad who just got into this shit

>>10383358
>because they don't really know what it's about
This is just a strawman.

>>10383362
No, I'm convinced this board doesn't know what theoretical CS is other than thinking it's either some simplified math on circuits or basic discrete math. Hell, I only learned about it because I talked to some people down at the complexity theory group at my university because Susskind did some black hole research using complexity classes. They're doing fine work down there

>>10383422
The vast majority of CS programs don't go anywhere near that. The best ones only cover Sipser which is high school level.

>>10383358
No. It’s very simple. After tens of thousands of dollars and years of intense study of difficult subjects the STEMcuck finds himself out of college rotting like a NEET or hopelessly underemployed. Best case scenario he is being paid a mere pittance toiling as an obsequious corporate wage slave, taking orders from a Chad Thundercock business major 25 IQ points below him.

Meanwhile, the CS major breezed through uni, partied every weekend, scraped by with C’s, and was met with multiple offers from Big N companies with $100k+ starting salaries, stock options, and massive signing bonuses before he even graduated.

The STEMcuck’s only recourse is to lash out in childish envy at CS, calling it “not a science” or a “meme”. It’s how the STEMcuck must COPE.

>current year
>he STILL fell for the stem meme
just fucking LOL

>>10382979
>bullshit means won't make you throw yourself off a window when you realize you can't get a job

>>10381164
Did a CS chad take the girl you where after again, OP?
Don't worry, you might get someone eventually.

>>10381733
>trusting people who are clearly envious
It just hit me there must have been tons of easily fooled guys who went to /sci/ blindly believed what was said and majored in math. Can't imagine how depressing that might be.

Fact is, CS is one of the better majors around from both an academic standpoint, and a financial standpoint.
Its a far more difficult major then math while opening far more doors than a math major.

>>10383451
>The best ones only cover Sipser which is high school level.
I'm amazed you people spew such bullshit with a straight face.
I don't even think Sipser is super challenging, but you clearly haven't read it and are just spewing bullshit hoping it sticks.

>>10383585
See
>>10381325

>>10381289
programing is not engineering

>>10383230
There are plenty of people with admissible SAT scores who aren't retarded enough to pay 5 times as much money for the Ivy league distinguishment

>>10383869
>CS is programming
yikes

>>10381164
I was about to study cyber security instead of math, glad I didn't though classes in math of this school are shit because it has introductory courses, it doesn't even help to prepare brainlets; they are filtered out regardless. What the fuck most people here came to study physics, and surprise, most people failed the general physics course

>>10383518
>>10383550
>>10383555
>>10383577

>>10383585
>https://4chan-science.wikia.com/wiki/Computer_Science_and_Engineering#Automata.2C_Computability_Theory.2C_and_Complexity_Theory
>Sipser is a very easy to read (almost middle school level) book covering all three areas while requiring no more than the ability to read and write simple proofs. Great for people outside of CS who want to learn and understand the subject with the added benefit that anyone who completes the book will know the subject better than 99.95% of CS majors and will be able to easily call them out when they butcher and grossly misrepresent it (which they do quite often). Downside is that it's horribly overpriced and math savvy readers will be annoyed that it doesn't go much deeper.

Personally, I don't really like Sipser that much as the automata section drags on and the proof-sketch&proof thing he does makes some of the later proofs more awkward to read and should've been interlaced. But there's nothing there that an average high school student couldn't easily do.

>>10383451
Again, I was referring to theoretical CS, the field, and not one or two classes at an average to below average university. I keep making the case for the field, but then you guys respond in full "b-but CS majors don't touch anything like that!" That's not even what I was referring to.

Also, I think it was said by another anon, but if you go to a good school, you usually have multiple electives in theoretical CS taught from notes or without sipser. The problem is that there is only one unified textbook for an introduction into complexity theory, and that book is best supplemented with a good understanding of algebra and analysis if you want to go farther in any of the topics listed.

So it's that TCS departments have all their interesting class material in their notes, not in one textbook.

>>10384324
Sipser is a bit boring, but it's not bad as a reference book. Then again, I think formal languages are a bore. I feel like complexity theory is way more interesting

>>10384441
>and that book is best supplemented with a good understanding of algebra and analysis if you want to go farther in any of the topics listed

So basically TCS is a mathematician field that cs plebs steal credit for.

>>10381362
Molecular biology is harder than CS

>>10381733
Never take advice from 4chan(el) seriously. It is infested to the brim with failures of society and turboautistic stormfag larpers.

>>10384471
Nah. Another anon in one of these threads said it best: if physics majors don’t learn basic abstract algebra / group theory until grad school, then CS majors can tackle topology and other topics in grad school too. The astute among them all will just double major to start the process early. Fields that contain heavy amounts of math are not reducible to just math, and in reality, everyone works on each other’s problems. The majority of analytic number theory is done by complexity theorists these days. Game theory is studied in economics and CS departments. The list goes on

I do agree that undergrad caters to mathless cucks, but as long as you actually care and learn the material one way or the other in order to make a large, non trivial mathematical contribution, who gives a shit? The CS majors who I knew in undergrad who wanted to do grad school already took grad classes in both the math and CS departments.

>>10381164
Not a cs major but this type of thinking is for insecure losers.

>>10381733
Don't listen to any advice you get here, this site is full of losers.

>>10381164
CS is given at the "school for electrical engineering and computer science" at my school. And its considered an engineering track.
OP is retarded

>>10384621
same here lol, are you a burger though?

>>10381179
>>10381216
I didn't even know CE existed before I read your posts. You guys fell for some obscure meme I'm afraid.

>too stupid for cs
shouldnt have been born

>>10381733
Yes, you're doing a mistake, everything a computer "scientist" can do can be done by any EE, CpE or mathematician.

>>10384875
Then you're a dumb fuck

>>10384875
You fell for a less obscure one.

>>10384875
Which country are you from?

>>10383518
You realize CS is still stem right?

>>10384613
>t.CSlet

>>10381733
All the pure science nerds on this board are just jealous that we make 70k out of undergrad while they can’t even find a job.

>>10383869
Braindead post like this are proof /sci/ has no clue what they're talking about.

>>10385746
Mathematicians can do EE research with sufficient motivation. EE can do pure mathematics with sufficient motivation. You can imagine how the rest of this thing goes. In general, no field has exclusive claim to its methods and abilities. EVERYONE works on each others' problems, and any attempt to say otherwise is an undergrad with no research experience trying to justify their life choices.

CS, like any other subject out there, is defined by a series of topics with similar motivation, and it ranges from pure mathematics problems to engineering problems. CS researchers are CS researchers, and when they want to be, some specialize in EE work, some specialize in theory, etc etc. Their results are nontrivial. Not anybody can do it, and that's evidenced with theory departments being notoriously hard for ANYONE to get into, math and CS PhD alike.

>>10384700
no, norhtern eurofag
burger education system is fucked up

>>10384324
>this whole fucking post
I don't even know where to begin.
>unironically quoting wikia
I want you to realize no respectable academic would cite wikipedia for proof. Now realize you quoted something even lower than wikipedia.
Stop for a second to think how fucking stupid you look. Do you really think quoting some random faggot from wikia amounts to anything? Why the fuck do I not just quote some random blogger? And yet people like you brag about how much smarter you are then CS majors only to end up looking like complete drooling retards whenever you're asked to give evidence to your arguments. I forget that despite all the bragging /sci/tards are all sub 90 IQ inbreds.

>Sipser is a very easy to read (almost middle school level) book
> benefit that anyone who completes the book will know the subject better than 99.95% of CS majors
>the non CS majors who complete the book don't know the material but the people who read it as a hobby understand it better.
Stop for a second to realize how fucking retarded this sounds and how fucking retarded you look for posting it. You have to be sub 80 IQ. Like how are you this fucking stupid? Let me guess, math major?

Also from someone that actually read Sipser, the material is interesting but the book is incredibly dull. I learned mainly from the professor's note. The notes where far harder than the book and what the professor went over was far more complex than anything in the book. Only a shit class would stick with what the book teaches. Either way, the book itself is fairly challenging. Definitely too complicated for the drooling /sci/tards infesting this board.

>>10383323
Math fag here that transfered as a junior to EE. Real analysis is hard but what do you mean by harder than “anything” an engineer studies? My graduate studies in RF/microwave were way harder than real analysis.

>>10386302
Yeah, but that's probably because they were graduate studies in general. Real analysis at its modern level is hard as balls. Not to say one is "harder than the other," but that their difficulty comes down to the difference in motivations. Once you get past measure and into papa Rudin / grandpa Rudin level material, you have enough to actually talk about analysis at a high level.

What everyone should realize is that in the long run, no undergraduate class is actually really tough. They can be a slog or a ton of work, but as far as difficulty goes, everything you go on to do in research or even in grad school is orders of magnitude harder.

>>10381164
CS are too stupid for Engineering.
Engineering too stupid for science.
Science too stupid for physics.
Physics too stupid for Math.
The truth hurts, but it needs to be said.

>>10386331
The world does not fall into a neat hierarchy like the way you're suggesting. Once you get to grad school, you should shed your ego or else it'll fuck you over at the worst times. People do different things because different things interest them. On that note, CS is pretty cool. I hang out with the TCS guys and we talk math all the time, and the only difference in our work is more or less the motivation. And I think in the end, we both our work because we love math, so I have as much respect for them as I do other mathematicians.

t. 5th year math grad

>>10385906
KTH?

I'm a sophomore doing CS interested in pursuing a PhD at a reputable college. I only started research this semester (though taking grad-level coursework). How screwed am I? Any suggestions for the next 3 semesters?

>>10381164
Fuck computer scientists and they're goddamn videogames and computer animations. I hate them so much right now. I am so fucking pissed right now.

>>10382210
Yes.
>>10382377
You don't even need a degree to get a programming job.
>>10382394
0/8 b8

>>10381822
>Making new algorithms
Very few people do this
>doing mathematics in complexity theory and geometry
Academics is not a job
>embedded
That's CE
>new methods for network like in ad hoc
Very few EEs and CEs PhDs do that

>>10381307
did you consider suicide?

>>10381164

How exactly is being only below Mathematics, Engineering and "Real Science" (I assume, Chemistry, Physics, EE) a bad thing?

It still takes a lot more IQ than other faggot fields and is not really easy, unless you went to a poo in the loo college. You still have tough math courses and on the side have to learn everything related to programming (be it hundreds of fundamental concepts that get harder and more abstract as you progress and interdependent with other concepts and then you go down the rabbit hole of how algorithms work). While you are also taking 3-4 other classes related to CS.

I mean, anyone from CS taking offense to the OP picture who clearly has some sort of 5 year old kid superiority complex is probably retarded and will still end up making a lot more money, if they finish the "meme" degree.

I assume OP is just butthurt jealous faggot that couldn't learn how to program :^).

>>10381173
>implying majority of computer scientists actually have anything to do with the existence of a computer

>>10381733
good CS grads can actually write good software. generic STEM people working in software might be able to explain some math better to you, but you will never actually need it. same with theoretical CS stuff. it's absolutely irrelevant in most real world applications you develop. what you learn is correctly planning a software system - which lets you avoid all the pitfalls that happen when you don't know how to plan. i say this as someone who has a CS degree, worked wiht many other generic STEM people in software projects

>>10387038
>Very few people do this
It's one of the biggest fields of active academic and industrial research. The fuck are you on?
>Academics is not a job
?????
It's not the only job out there, but it's definitely a career path
>That's CE
Embedded is in general a systems topic. I worked at an embedded internship, and the staff was half EE and half CS. As long as you're comfortable around circuit analysis, resource management, and performance critical code, you're fine in embedded. The rest you can learn by yourself.
>Very few EEs and CEs PhDs do that
More or less my point. Networking, which covers all layers of abstraction, is a really tricky topic that's mostly written about by CS researchers.

This is basically what I mean. Engineering majors generally chock up their work to what sort of entry level jobs in industry you can get. CS jobs are in research, way more often than not. They're not in entry level positions.

>>10385781
>t. Insecure 1st year physics undergrad

>>10387094
Again, it depends on your line of work. Software development for the majority of companies out there doesn't require theoretical CS or math to much any degree, but then again software development jobs are really annoying and put you on a daily grind. An actual CS job is in theoretical or systems CS, and it's not necessarily within academia. Think Google's algorithms research division or their new technologies group.

Why is it nobody posts TCS/math questions on /sci/? I did it once, and I got responses that amounted to
>reeeeee CS
but nobody actually discussed the problem. It was about graph isomorphism and the paper I linked was
https://arxiv.org/ps/1512.03547
At this point I'm convinced that /sci/ cares way more about image and being accepted as "intelligent" in a conventional manner rather than actually caring about math and science. I wasn't even interested in CS (my degree is in math and engineering) until I did more abstract algebra on the side and then came upon the graph isomorphism problem.

>>10386403
yes

>>10387119
>https://arxiv.org/ps/1512.03547
Why did you link to a file like a fucking retard? And a postscript file to boot ?

>Links to an 83 page paper and expects people to read it in order to entertain him

kek

>>10387136
Holy shit calm down. Here's the listing:
https://arxiv.org/abs/1512.03547

>>10387153
It's not really for my entertainment. I also linked this for background (along with the wikipedia article):
https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/32160/what-evidence-is-there-that-graph-isomorphism-is-not-in-p
I thought /sci/ would be a place to talk about math problems, but I guess I was wrong.

>>10387169
/sci/ has always been an ego-stroking board. The difference is that 2016 attracted the worst larper scum to ever exist. You can spot them by looking for
>frogposting
>wojakposting
>thotposting
>IQ
>consciousness
>race
>IQ vs race
>climate change (denial)
>stupid questions not on their containment thread
>spaceX shills/haters
And the list goes on.

>>10387106
i agree with that, but a small fraction actually wants to do that, and an even smaller fraction can do that (well). realistically, a cs grad will be a developer. and most of them, bad ones. but the people from other stem degrees won't be good ones, either. but the best are usually good cs grads.

>>10387169
Graph theory and Combinatorics are for the Hungarian amphetamine addicts.

>>10387218
>but the best are usually good cs grads
No. The best ones are usually the other STEM majors that cared enough to learn.

>>10382381
>PolSci is not an easy major.
>If you think it is then solve the problem of world peace. Come on, show us how easy it is.

>>10387252
>he thinks good grads are defined by their program
Good grads care to learn regardless of their field. Judging from the quality of CS research, I’d say there are a lot of good grads in CS.

>>10387401
The P=NP problem is a well defined mathematics problem that is the culmination of many other non trivial mathematics problems in CS. The polysci comparison doesn’t hold.

>>10387128
Represent

>>10381179
you're an idiot

I think the guy who made that image is really intelligent

>>10387401
>solve the problem of world peace

Oy vey, that's very antisemitic.

>>10387411
>Judging from the quality of CS research

That comes from mathematicians.

>>10387481
The problem here is that you either do not accept TCS researchers as mathematicians (that is, the theoretical computer scientist as a mathematician), or that any sufficiently high level theoretical CS suddently transmogrifies into the realm of mathematics, as if there's some threshold that separates CS and mathematics.

I know you're likely shitposting, but this is an absurd statement to make. You might as well be saying that theoretical physics comes from mathematicians as well, and that at a similar point, it's no longer really "just physics."

>>10387481
>>10387493
The overwhelming majority of the work "from the mathematicians" comes from those who hold PhD's in CS. So what you're saying is that theoretical computer scientists are mathematicians, or theoretical computer science isn't computer science.

>>10387481
>>10387500
Thus, we conclude CS = Mathematics, therefore /sci/ is eternally BTFO

>>10387169
>https://arxiv.org/abs/1512.03547
>László "Laci" Babai (born July 20, 1950 in Budapest)[1] is a Hungarian professor of computer science and mathematics at the University of Chicago. His research focuses on computational complexity theory, algorithms, combinatorics, and finite groups, with an emphasis on the interactions between these fields.
>In 1968, Babai won a gold medal at the International Mathematical Olympiad. Babai studied mathematics at Eötvös Loránd University from 1968 to 1973, received a Ph.D. from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences in 1975, and received a D.Sc. from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences in 1984.[1][2]
>He is the author of over 180 academic papers.[1] His notable accomplishments include the introduction of interactive proof systems,[3] the introduction of the term Las Vegas algorithm,[4] and the introduction of group theoretic methods in graph isomorphism testing.[4] In November 2015, he announced a quasipolynomial time algorithm for the graph isomorphism problem.[5][6][7]
>He is editor-in-chief of the refereed online journal Theory of Computing.[8] Babai was also involved in the creation of the Budapest Semesters in Mathematics program and first coined the name.

:^)

>>10387653
Yeah, the people who do "actual CS" are mathematicians because computer scientists are too stupid to do it themselves. That has always been /sci/'s point all along.

>>10387493
The ones that publish the best papers are all mathematicians. CS professors pluck the low hanging fruit.

>>10387688
Pic is just someone who thinks CS = only learning to program. If he knew anything about CS he'd understand that its not blindly memorizing shit. In short that guy is just straight up retarded and doesnt understand what CS education is.
>narrow lens of computer science
lmao.. really shows how retarded he is, computer science isnt a narrow lens, it only is in his narrow brain

>>10387714
>Pic is just someone who thinks CS = only learning to program

Ad hominem & strawman. You didn't even read the pic.

>>10387719
Yes i did retard. now explain why you need to be a mathematician for sorting algorithms

To all the brainlets bashing cs:

You people do realize how fucking stupid you look citing /sci/ post, right?
Just stop for a second to realize how fucking stupid you look

>>10387688
>>10387719
>muh don knuth
LMAO
just glimsed over "concrete mathematics a foundation for CS"
"most difficult book evaaaar!!!"""
looks like a fucking childrens book. if you honestly believe cs students cant read that book then you're beyond retarded.
again, what you think CS is isnt what it actually is.

>>10387671
>pic related
Even Dijkstra himself thinks CS programs are for literal retards, see >>10381269

>So, if I look into my foggy crystal ball at the future of computing science education, I overwhelmingly see the depressing picture of "Business as usual". The universities will continue to lack the courage to teach hard science, they will continue to misguide the students, and each next stage of infantilization of the curriculum will be hailed as educational progress.

> I was recently exposed to a demonstration of what was pretended to be educational software for an introductory programming course. With its "visualizations" on the screen it was such an obvious case of curriculum infantilization that its author should be cited for "contempt" of the student body", but this was only a minor offense compared with what the visualizations were used for: they were used to display all sorts of features of computations evolving under control of the student's program! The system highlighted precisely what the student has to learn to ignore, it reinforced precisely what the student has to unlearn. Since breaking out of bad habits, rather than acquiring new ones, is the toughest part of learning, we must expect from that system permanent mental damage for most students exposed to it.

>>10387671
Yeah, researchers that were born prior to the 70s generally started in math because CS as a field has been well defined in its own department for like ~50 years. This is why Stephen Cook has a math PhD but is definitely a computer scientist. Recent examples include Scott Aaronson, who has only CS degrees but does cutting edge theoretical CS work.

>>10387688
The problem is as described above. CS is a young field, so academics from other disciplines started to migrate in its early days. Don Knuth didn't revolutionize CS because he "learned programming." He proved many system critical theorems and made a lot of making rigorous progress in algorithms during a time when scientists were still counting operations by hand.

Also, on the note of books in CS: as a young field, there are few actually advanced tomes outside of springer textbooks in specialized fields. You'll have way more success getting advanced CS from either the undergraduate series in math and CS or the early graduate CS. So CLRS might be standard for software engineering, but as far as CS goes, it's not representative.

>>10387727
Deriving the time complexities for shell sort

>>10387697
Source? Aaronson and his PhD students publish big dick papers physics-CS papers. CS professors in theory generally study things that are more esoteric / hard to get into

>>10387743
Nobody here said it was hard.

>>10387727
>>10387754
holy shit, nobody in sorting algorithms actually studies these anymore. If you guys actually went to FOCS, you'd see that sorting lower bounds past the comparison model is an exercise in really complicated generating functions, reductions into other problems (sorting with wild cards by reducing polynomial mulitplication using fast Fourier transforms comes to mind), and a some stuff on the transdichotomous model (which basically talks about fundamental machine size in relation to input). Nobody, ever, EVER talks about merge sort.

>>10387754
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12767588/time-complexity-for-shell-sort
ohhh yes i can see why you would need a phd in math to understand this :-)

>>10387767
The problem is that you burgers think someone with a CS degree only has a BSc. People with masters/phds in CS can do "complicated" stuff. Also how many Bsc in maths can do complex CS stuff?
retards

>>10387653
No idiot, stop speaking for me.

We conclude that CS and mathematics are very intimately related and more or less the same (differing motivations at times, but really more or less the same), but there's no gatekeeping by major / PhD who does a certain field's work.

>>10387781
Dude, I'm not against you on that one. You cannot compare a CS bsc to a mathematician because the latter literally has a PhD. I'm saying that in the realm of PhD's, CS PhD's do "the complicated" stuff. I'm saying that the sorting example is really really fucking stupid, because even in the world of sorting, people are talking about way harder problems than old algorithms like merge sort and shell sort from when the field kickstarted itself in the 70s.

>>10381269
How can one man be so butthurt over diagrams

>>10381164
What can CS do to not be brainlets in your opinion?
Is theo. cs still brainlet tier? MSc Machine learning?

>>10388079
>Is theo. cs still brainlet tier?
Yes
>MSc Machine learning?
Meme learning is just a fancy name for statistical learning, you're better off with a math or a stats degree. Physics and EE degrees might still be better just because these are far more mathematically rigorous than C"S"

>>10382639
/thread

>>10381377
>tfw failed discrete math twice before finally passing with a C the third time

I swear I'm not a brainlet, I did well in Calc 1 and Linear Algebra (got B's in both) and I have straight A's in all my compsci courses, I just suck at discrete math.

>>10381787
>CS
>thinks he's anything else but just another pajeet
Lmao here, have yourself a job application pleb

>>10388257
>be interested in machine learning
>do edx coarse from IBM
>first three weeks are literally linear fitting and curve fitting use standard Python packages
>mfw all of this shit is literally high+-school tier least squares fitting
Fucking hell what an absolute embarrassment

>>10388750
>I swear I'm not a brainlet,
>suck at discrete math
You are a brainlet.
>I did well in Calc 1 and Linear Algebra
>(got B's in both)
That's not doing well. Calculus and Linear Algebra should both be easy A's.

>>10388257
Theoretical CS as a study is based. It’s definitely not brainlet tier. The problem is that you have to read papers/springer textbooks to get “actual” mathematical CS. There are some good intro books like computational complexity: a modern approach, but they declare on chapter 1 that the semester need not be any prereq except a good amount of mathematical maturity. As such, there’s only so much they can talk about before you have to take more analysis (Fourier and harmonics come up all the time in lower bounds), spectral theory, algebra, etc.

I think CS departments are equipped to talk about systems and embedded (my department taught the architecture courses better than the EE department, and everyone in the EE department took our course as their one non residency core course), but most are not equipped to teach theory since it’s such a wide, difficult field that requires lots of prerequisite mathematics knowledge. I suggest double majoring to get the best of both worlds and so you can do research with top theorists.

Also, while I think mathematics students generally get a good grasp on theory (since the entire undergrad curriculum is less about knowledge and more about mathematical maturity and developing bags of examples/counterexamples for intuition), I think physics and EE students who weren’t already in math struggle to do so. Until grad school, physics students learn that math handles the big ideas for them without having to really prove much from scratch. I’m not sure EE students ever question the proofs. So I’ve seen physics (particularly non theorists, and people who never took more than 1-2 proof courses) and EE students struggle with theoretical CS.

>>10381164
That is true about programming and "software engineering"
And a huge chunk of people who go into CS end up doing that because they are Millenials who got in the field because they watched Mr robot abd want to be leet h4xOrs.
People who do CS and stay in academia and don't actually work on literal computers but theory of computation for example are not as based as proper mathematicians but way more patrician than most engineers or at least mechanical ones I don't get the circle jerk around basically "dude classic mechanics lmao".
Inb4 muh computational engineers, I mean props to them but they really are just EE.

>>10385887
There are theorical engineers that are mathematicians in all but name, and applied mathematicians that aee ressearch engineers in all ways that matter. But that's irrelevant for majors.

Doing a cs major right now(plz no bully) because I really enjoy programming and find it fun. That said, I have started to take interest in math and I'm currently attempting to go for a double major or minor in math.

>>10381362
>mechanical, chemical, computer, aerospace
Lmfao Anon. This isn't the /sci/ humor thread. Such cope in one post.
ChemEng is the only academically respectable degree you listed there.